What the cops did to the Occupiers last night in all those cities...defensible or indefensible?

[Ken Burch]

[HopeHoops]

1. Other: Indefensible. nt

[hifiguy]

4. +1

There is never any excuse for using force agains people peaceably assembling to protest. Period.

[Ken Burch]

8. Oh, yeah, guess I should have included that.

Still...I've inadvertently created the kind of poll the MSM would PREFER to give on this subject, so I'll leave it as it is.

[HopeHoops]

10. Well, other than FOX - "Police action against commie pinko violent dirty hippie protesters..."

Justified or necessary?

On edit: I should have added "liberal", "Democrat" and "Obama-supporting" to the subject line but it ran it over the character limit.

[Ken Burch]

13. And their follow up poll "Should Mayor Bloomburg be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize...

...or the presidency?"

[Avalux]

2. Other: Indefensible. n/t

[abelenkpe]

3. indefensible nt

[The Magistrate]

5. Absolutely Indefensible, Sir

And if law were administered justly, in many instances criminal.

[Ken Burch]

9. Thanks for the response.

BTW, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you publicly for all your incredibly eloquent and passionate threads about education issues.

[NOLALady]

6. indefensible

[Fire Walk With Me]

7. They, and those who gave them their marching orders, are illegal and criminal.

[XemaSab]

11. .

[Philosopher King]

12. It has nothing to do with the cops--the only time they call the shots is

when they are directing traffic.

[Ken Burch]

14. The level of force used has something to do with them.

As does the theft of the belongings of the OWS campers.

[Philosopher King]

18. Police Officers are people--there are good ones and bad ones.

But again, guidelines for the use of force, level of force, etc., are set by New York City government officials.

[Ken Burch]

21. Yes, they can be good people as individuals, but something about being in that institution

does bad things to a lot of people's heads.

To me, the phenomenon is best illustrated by the words of a Leon Rosselson song(Leon is the amazing English songwriter who wrote "The World Turned Upside Down(The Diggers Song)" among other works"

This was a song he wrote called "Whoever Invented The Fishfinger" (In the UK "fish finger" is the term they use for what we call fish sticks)

Whovever invented the fishfinger,
ought to be transmogrified.
Skinned mashed and boxed, into uniform blocks,
then covered all over, from collar to socks,
and frozen and finally fried.

Because who'd do that to a fish,
finning its way through the seas,
Colours in harmony, perfectly poised,
riding its flying trapeze.

And progress, is all very well,
but not when it chops up our dreams.
And it's hard to feel, at ease in the world,
when nothing is what it seems.

Whoever invented the Daily Mail,
ought to be cut down to size.
Pulped and reduced to a nauseous juice,
and dried out at flattened 'til ready for use,
Then covered in newsprint and lies.

Because who'd do that to a tree
raising its head to the sky
Rooted in centuries, telling tall tales,
breathing a green lullaby.

And progress, is all very well,
but not when it chops down our dreams.
And it's hard to feel, at ease in the world,
when nothing is what it seems.

Whoever invented the Policeman,
ought to be licked into shape.
Toughened and trained, 'til the body's a cane
'til the arms are a chain, 'til the nerves feel no pain,
'til obedience rules and encircles the brain,
With walls so he'll never escape.

Because who'd do that to a child,
jumping with joy and desire.
Floating in fantasies, drowning in dreams,
Brimming with feelings of fire.

And progress, is all very well,
but not when it locks up our dreams.
And it's hard to feel, at ease in the world,
when nothing is what it seems.


We need a whole new system to protect people from violence in this country. The prison-industrial-complex isn't working, and what it offers in terms of "safety" no longer makes up for what it takes away from all of us in terms of rights.

[bvar22]

22. The "They were only following orders" defense.

Doesn't work.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[TheKentuckian]

15. Indefensible

[frazzled]

16. Other: A different view

I just read this article on Occupy Chicago (where I live). No camp was ever set up here, because the city was not about to scuttle the law that closed Grant Park at 11 pm. (There used to be a lot of crime in Grant Park, and it's a huge place, hard to police.) There were a few arrests those initial weekends, after the police made announcements about the enforcement of the closing times well in advance. The OWS people were granted a meeting with the mayor, but he refused to budge on the issue of encampment in Grant Park. Maybe that was a blessing, because, as this article tells it at least, it made the movement decide to find other ways to remain relevant--and they've been very very successful in that endeavor, with outreach movements and teach-ins. (The OWS at the University of Chicago just managed to scuttle a planned lecture by Condoleeza Rice!). What, after all, does a camp achieve, except confrontation? That, as we've seen, eventually ends in negative attention. Maybe the closing of the camps should be reconsidered as a good thing in this sense ... a way for the movement to move forward with other, more effective and creative strategies that draw people in, not turn them off. The Occupy Chicago people have set very specific educational and legislative goals, and they seem to be accomplishing a lot of them--and gaining respect in the process.

Please read the whole article, but here's a snippet:

Occupy Chicago Scores Victories Without a Camp

As Occupy Chicago nears its second month, its visible presence on the streets may have diminished, but its influence and reach has grown.

Three weeks ago, Chicago police evicted and arrested supporters of Occupy Chicago in Grant Park for the second time. Unlike other cities where demonstrations have been suppressed violently with batons, tear gas, rubber bullets, and concussion grenades, Occupy Chicago's encampment was dismantled without a single instance of violence. A round of failed talks with the Mayor's Office ensued, and Occupy Chicago decided not to pursue a permanent encampment downtown. Instead, they continued to maintain a 24-hour presence at the intersection of Jackson and LaSalle and worked to strengthen their outreach into the community.

Since Occupy Chicago's eviction, national attention has drifted elsewhere. Drawn to dramatic scenes of officers in riot gear standing toe-to-toe with thousands of demonstrators, media representations have highlighted "clashes" with police. Likewise, a series of incidents on the East and West Coasts -- a sexual assault at Zuccotti Park in New York, a shooting near the camp in Oakland, California, two drug overdoses in Portland, Oregon, and the suicide of a veteran in Burlington, Vermont -- have fueled the perception that the encampments are a threat to public safety. Attention to the economic and social issues raised by the Occupy Movement has been diverted.

However, unburdened by the logistics of operating and defending an encampment, Occupy Chicago is blossoming with successful acts of outreach, education, and direct action.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-cassello/occupy-chicago-scores-vic_b_1094088.html?ref=chicago

[randome]

19. Well said.

[gkhouston]

17. Defensible things can be done in the light of day with the press observing.

'Nuff said.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. Not to worry. NATO will arrive soon to set up safe havens and a no-fly-zone.

[Fire Walk With Me]

23. New video of arrests inside Zuccotti, of police forcing away journalists

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x635324