Would anyone else on DU like to see a Theist discussion group on DU3?

[TygrBright]

I rather enjoy discussions about religion, faith, etc. but get seriously weary of the endless Theist/Atheist squabbling. Maybe we need three discussion groups? One for theists who don't care for the argument, one for atheists who don't care for the argument, and one just for the folks who LOVE the argument?

wistfully,
Bright

[Angry Dragon]

1. how do test your faith without a challenge??

that would be like a bunch of republicans sitting around and talking about what to do with taxes

[TygrBright]

2. Life is a challenge to faith.

Occasionally I enjoy discussion that embraces differences, rather than conflict that increases them.

peaceably,
Bright

[pnwmom]

4. Or like a bunch of DUers talking about what to do about taxes.

What's the problem with that?

[MADem]

3. That was kind of my suggestion....

I got my ass handed to me! The atheists like the Religion/Theology forum, but they didn't take kindly to me referencing atheism as a religion (I did ask the "Well, why are you here?" question).

I was trying to get a little insight into the whole thought process of those with rather vociferous views, but it was like pulling teeth. Eventually I got some discussion going, but it was not easy. It's like ultimate fighting up in there!

[pnwmom]

5. Good idea. n/t

[napoleon_in_rags]

6. I always thought they should have religion discussion, and atheism/philosophy.

Two separate groups. There is one mood where you want to debate the existence of God, and another where you want to ask for prayers for an ill friend. Those two moods are really quite separate and distinct.

[TygrBright]

8. Indeed so. And yet another mood where you want to discuss...

...the teleological aspects of various deist traditions, and the crossover between different exigetic schools.

wistfully,
Bright

[LuvNewcastle]

10. That's what I would like to see.

Have a religion forum for people who already accept the existence of God(s) and a separate forum for hypothetical discussions on God's existence as well as other philosophical topics. That seems to be a good compromise.

[napoleon_in_rags]

11. I think so. As I theist, I would be there to debate the atheists.

No censorship, lively debate, all the values we cherish as Dems... But also a sense of place for different sentiments. I think it would be good.

[Fire Walk With Me]

7. That would be (potentially) infinitely better than the current religion forum.

[Norrin Radd]

9. kr

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. Maybe the split of the religion groups is diluting things too much

Of the groups listed under "Religion & Spirituality", only the Astrology one is very active. Combine the 7 others together, and there are only 30 threads updated in the past 2 months (and half of that is from one group - Catholic/Orthodox).

[felix_numinous]

13. K&R Great idea TygrBright.

I agree completely.

[Fumesucker]

14. On average atheists on the US are more knowledgeable of religion than are theists..

What, you want to leave out those who know the most about the topic?

:shrug:

[TygrBright]

26. Well, yanno, my male gynecologist is way more knowledgeable about the female reproductive tract...

...and the various problems it is vulnerable to.

But if I want to talk about the experience of being a woman, I'll get together with my (female) friends.

helpfully,
Bright

[Fumesucker]

29. Funny, when guys do the same it's considered bad...

But then I'm not big into chest beating contests so I don't fit in there either.. :(

[TygrBright]

34. Really? 'Cause my esposo hangs with his buds plenty and no one I know thinks it's bad.

What's bad about it?

confusedly,
Bright

[Fumesucker]

38. I walked away from just such a gathering night before last ..

When it turned into something straight out of Springsteen's Glory Days with a generous seasoning of Obama-bashing from the right and outright racist and sexist comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsEkhy7fGLw

[TygrBright]

40. Oh, well, my esposo's buds are all lefties, so that's not an issue for him. n/t

[edhopper]

15. There is an Atheist group

and various religious groups as well.

That they are not very active might pint to the lack of interest in talk simply about faith.

[Festivito]

39. There is. But, the religion discussions get bogged down because of the interaction noted in the OP.

Many have quit discussing over that acrimony. That could be why it looks like there is a lack of interest.

[Logical]

16. I agree with this. I think if religious people want to discuss their....

religion, no matter how nutty in private, they should be able to.
Same for Atheists.

[HopeHoops]

17. I wouldn't have a problem with it, but they should also add athiest and agnostic groups.

My youngest daughter (16) is a self-described "eclectic pagan" and wears a Wiccan star necklace 24x7. That's a pretty specific group and doesn't merit another forum, but you said "theist" and that's a general term that covers many of the world's religions. It would get a little tedious if we had every individual definition with its own forum.

That reminds me of a joke from long ago. Without repeating the entire thing, which is long, two guys meet somewhere and both mention they are from Atlanta or somewhere and go through iterations of where they came from getting down to (however you want to phrase it), "The West Atlanta Baptist Church of Jesus Christ The Savior East Pecan Street" and the other rifles off the same name but "West Pecan Street". Then the first says, "Oh yeah, well FUCK YOU!!!"

The joke is an extreme example, but unfortunately, that's how the vast majority of "devout" individuals deal with things in all countries. Mainstream religions are based on morality and code of conduct, perhaps even more than belief in a god or prophet. Yet the points of contention are primarily over specific hierarchies with a defined name. Think of Ireland for example. Catholic and Protestant fighting? For the most part, they believe in the same basic principles.

Christian and non-Christian fights make more sense than that, but they are both still based on morality. Sharia law is being banned in places like Kansas (:wtf:) and yet it is an extreme version of religious "morality".

Overall, I would say having a single forum is best. The sharing of ideas can only make you stronger, whether it changes your opinion or reinforces it. If we split it up into "pat my back" forums, it's just a cluster-fuck of little value. If someone posts "There is no god, there are no gods, and theists are fucking idiots", just don't open the thread!

That's how GD works (and yet I get abused in there regularly), and even the Lounge, but that's more flexible with respect to content and response. The Science forum is a perfect example of why you shouldn't split it up. Should Biology, Physics, Optics, etc. each have their own forums? That would get tedious.

Just food for thought.

[TygrBright]

27. I prefer Christian and Buddhist and Jewish and Wiccan and Hindu and Muslim discussions...

...of how belief actuates our priorities, knowledge, life experience, decisions, etc. And how our faith traditions evolved and how we understand them, and the problems that arise from modern challenges to faith, and stuff like that...

...to "Christian and non-Christian fights."

But I'm feeling a little like a voice in the wildnerness. Seems like the whole point of a discussion board for a lot of people is as a sparring ring to have fun with intellectual smackdowns of each others' beliefs. Not interested. Spent years on the Front Porch forum doin' that and it got unbearably tedious, as no one ever came up with anything new.

But if it's fun for others, I hope we continue to accommodate it.

I was just hoping for a little enjoyment for those of us who think differently. But maybe there's not enough of us.

wistfully,
Bright

[HopeHoops]

42. Honestly I'm amazed at how diverse the members of DU actually are.

The name implies a clearly political intent, yet the discussions digress into an array of topics that are not at all related to politics at any level. It is a unique experience.

[LiberalAndProud]

37. No need to add.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=263

[Ichingcarpenter]

18. What about a Quantum Theory Forum that's about Philosophy?

To me, the multiverse universe for one, explains a lot on my spiritual metaphysical quest......Time....Space.... Energy.

[TygrBright]

28. I would love that.

And I would think that "Theology/Metaphysics" might be a great name and focus for a forum that embraces both.

A lot of my faith journey as an adult has centered around exploring the nuances of discovery and speculation about matter/energy in relation to theology.

interestedly,
Bright

[Ichingcarpenter]

35. I was lucky early in my Life and to invited to many Indian sweats

in my teens and twenties because even as a white kid
when had someone in their family that married a Navajo.

The philosophical and metaphysical questions of our life
will be and has been the evolution of thought and science.

REALITY....... is very complex.

That's where most philosophers go in the every changing
constructs of society and our minds.

[ThomWV]

19. No, I would not like to see such a thing.

All such discussion do, in the end, is prolong myth.

[TygrBright]

30. Hi, Thom! Glad you're back. ::big hug:: Thanks for fighting!

We would have missed you very, very much.

affectionately,
Bright

[Festivito]

41. Although it may prolong what you see as a myth, it may help Dems fight the Cons better - allowing it

Many people believe in what you see as a myth and they vote, and they can be persuaded to vote for Dems. Many know better than to believe in their ministers more than what their heart tells them.

This infighting has driven people away from discussing in the Religion forum. The atheists still get their own forum and can still use the same religion forum from where the concern arises.

BTW, also, I'm glad you're better.

[ThomWV]

44. Good point.

First off thank you for the last line. Back to the top, you've got a good point. It would in fact give another venue for dialogue, and that would be a good thing.

[Lyric]

20. Not really. Respectful Theists don't need protection from the evil Atheists.

Disrespectful ones don't DESERVE it.

Besides, who gets to define "Theist"? Does "Deist" fall into that category? What about someone who believes that there's a higher power somewhere outside of the universe, but that the higher power has ZERO influence on, effect on, or concern for our lives. Technically, that person believes in a higher power and thus qualifies as a "Theist", but is also much like an Atheist because they believe that religion is irrelevant (or even harmful to) to humanity.

Who gets to decide who stays and who goes? I hosted on forums like this before (Beliefnet.com Community Host for several years, along with Prophet451) and separating the groups apart did NOT turn out well. Why? Because in the end, the "believers" wanted the drama and the conflict every bit as much as the "nonbelievers", and they wound up going back to the Challenge & Critique board and starting shit, then retreating to their "safe" board to be smug assholes about the messes they created.

In my opinion, if you are unwilling to defend your belief, you probably ought to question why you have it. And that goes for both sides.

:shrug:

[TygrBright]

31. I feel no need to "defend" my belief. It's not vulnerable to attack by other humans with verbal....

...arguments. Although I deal with many, many challenges to it on a daily basis. But really, I'm old, you see. And I have heard every single verbal argument against theism (which embraces deism-- or perhaps versy-vicey) so many times. I'd really like to have some interesting discussions and sharing with others who share one fundamental assumption but experience it in different ways.

Constantly having to bang heads with those who don't share the fundamental assumption is not my thing. But I hope there's always a place for those who love it and enter zestfully into those discussions.

I'm just not one of them. So I was kind of hoping there were enough like-minded DUers to make it worth asking for a place to share together.

But maybe there aren't, and that's fine, too.

peaceably,
Bright

[TroglodyteScholar]

21. Nah.

Belief in an all-powerful creator is kind of in conflict with belief in the will of the people.

[Swede]

22. Sure,why not?

As the administrators for one.

[Ichingcarpenter]

23. Many of the Founders were Theist, but if they lived these days they would

be Quantum. Theorists.

I went from Christian to, Deist,first after reading the founding fathers,

So if we want to go back to how they say they world
I've been there and science doesn't' back it up any more,
and they were into science.


'Energy can be neither created or destroyed.'

EXCEPT AT A QUANTUM LEVEL...... even that is not true.
but true.....

The clockwork mechanism. with the Desist worked for their time,
cause they knew what the church tried to sell them didn't work.


Theism.... is even for ancient that Deism which historical and social anthropology realizes..... the multiple god thing.


LETS GO QUANTUM, I SAY........for the coming century.

[originalpckelly]

24. I agree, I'm not really interested in seeing why it was that God chose Adam's rib...

rather than his finger to make Eve.

[XanaDUer]

25. There is a catholic and orthodox Chritian forum

My star is gone now so I cannot posts anymore:(

[TygrBright]

33. That's sort of limiting to Christians, though. And only to non-Protestant Christians.

I'd love to have a place to explore beliefs about That Which Is from all contexts.

sadly,
Bright

[FarLeftFist]

32. As a Liberal, sure why not. Equality for all!

[lunatica]

36. How about one that doesn't ridicule other beliefs such as reincarnation?

Just saying...

[SidDithers]

43. What's wrong with the existing Religion sub-groups?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=428

Ancient Wisdom and Pagan Spirituality Group
Astrology, Spirituality & Alternative Healing Group
Catholic and Orthodox Christian Group
Christian Liberals/Progressive People of Faith Group
Jewish Group
Muslim/Islam Group
Prayer Circle Group
Seekers On Unique Paths Group

Theists need yet another group where they're protected from those evil atheists?

Sid

[xchrom]

45. i'd like that. nt

[Bucky]

46. And atheist-vs-theist discussions should be redirected the way 9/11, guns & Israel threads are.

It makes sense to have a forum for a ridiculed, if not quite oppressed, minority among DUers.

[NMMNG]

47. There are already multiple "protected" religious groups

where people are free to discuss religion, ask for/share prayers and such without pesky atheists or other outsiders. Most of them get little to no activity. :shrug:

[TygrBright]

48. I think that might be because they are limited to a particular denomination or faith...

I was hoping for a venue that would enable discussion of metaphysics and theology across faiths and denominations. It's a different kind of discussion than intra-denominational sharing and community. But I guess DU isn't really the place for this.

amiably,
Bright

[SecularMotion]

50. If none of the sub-forums fill your needs, why not request a "people of faith" group?

[TygrBright]

51. That's sort of what I was asking.

Lots of diverse forums for people who share particular interests, or who want to debate and argue over particular controversies, and a few big forums for everyone to share and exchange common interests, news, etc. It's a beautiful model, and DU is one of the websites that does it best.

The only place we're still "working things out" is in peoples' views and expectations of those diverse forums, and I think that's because some of us view them as places to debate/argue, versus places where they can feel like they are "among friends," and can discuss things within that context.

equably,
Bright

[SecularMotion]

49. So basically, you want to split R/T into pro-religion and anti-religion groups?