The Neocons Split with Israel Over Egypt

[pampango]

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/02/the-neocons-split-with-israel-over-egypt/70636/

Well, this is interesting. The neoconservative (or liberal interventionist) wing of American Jewish political thought (not that all neocons are Jewish, God forbid anyone should think that!) is cheering on the revolution in Egypt, while the Israeli government, and much of Israel's pundit class, is seeing the apocalypse in Mubarak's apparent downfall.

But the neoconservatives, who have made democracy promotion in the Middle East an overarching goal, are scratching their heads at what they see as Israeli shortsightedness. I asked Elliott Abrams, formerly of the Bush Administration National Security Council, and now at the Council on Foreign Relations, what he makes of the Israeli longing for Mubarak. He was scathing in his response:

The Israelis first of all do not believe in the universality of democracy. They believe what many American "experts" did in, say, 1950--democracy was fine for us and Western Europe, but not for Latins (too much Catholic culture) and Asians (too much Confucianism). They believe Arab culture does not permit democracy.

They see a danger in Mubarak's fall, and they are right: we do not know who will take over now or in a year or two from now. But this is at bottom a crazy reaction. What they are afraid of is the Muslim Brotherhood, right? Mubarak has ruled for THIRTY YEARS and leaves us a Brotherhood that is that powerful? Isn't that all the proof we need that dictatorship is not the way to fight the Brotherhood? He crushed the moderate and centrist groups and left the Brothers with an open field. He is to blame for the Brothers' popularity and strength right now. The sooner he goes the better.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

1. Nukes/No nukes.

Worries over.

[PufPuf23]

2. The problem with the Neo-Con (and too a large degree Neo-Lib)

political economy is that the USA has funded and backed Authoritarians at a cost to common people that would benefit from democracy and fair ownership of their natural resources.

What we are seeing is stabs at democracy in Egypt (Jordan, Yemen, Lebanon) that may not serve the strategic interests of the USA or Israel are in countries where the USA has invested in unpopular leaders and systems while unfriendly countries are stronger (by whatever tactic). The same pattern has happened in Latin America in that strong democracies are being built and the movement is growing while we have spent two generations backing the "bad" guys otherwise descendents of the benefits of colonialism eg oligarchs.

I am reading a great book, The Peace to End All Peace - The Fall of the Ottoman Empire. The book is maybe 20 years old but honest and reads like a spy novel but well researched. History is good especially when there ius an attempt to be honest. I have nearly 400 pages to go. The incompetence / delusions of the Brits and Young Turks in early WWI is jaw dropping. Helps one understand the ME.

[malaise]

3. Neo-cons have never given a shit about

democracy and the same is true for the neo-liberals.

[DCKit]

4. I would add that, for anyone who wants to argue your point...

Look at the U.S..

[malaise]

6. You're so right

and it's also true for anywhere that faced the five Ds of the Washington Consensus model - devalue, divest, deregulate and then watch the debt rise before you die.

And none of the decisions require the consensus of the governed...democracy my ass.

[markpkessinger]

5. +1: Their agenda is . . .

. . .not about national security, nor is it about security in the Middle East and it sure as hell isn't about spreading democracy in the Middle East or anywhere else. The real Neo-con agenda is about one thing and one thing only: propping up the profits of the private company defense contractors by keeping the war machine going at all costs.

[malaise]

7. Indeed and of course

controlling oil.

[Cirque du So-What]

8. John Bolton (not a Jew) - neocon - is going ape-shit over Egypt

Exception to the rule?

[whathehell]

9. Cheney, Rumsefeld, Bush...not Jews. n/t

[Cirque du So-What]

10. Duly noted

but my point has more to do with Scary Moustache Guy's stance on Egypt than with his gentile heritage, seeing that he's emerged from his neocon hidey-hole in what appears to be a play for the repug nomination in '12. If those other guys had said anything in recent days concerning Egypt, I would have commented on their non-Jewishness in relation to this article as well.

[whathehell]

12. My interpretation was that

you thought Bolton was an "exception" in being

a non-jewish neocon and my point is that he is not.

[cali]

11. huh? I'm reading and hearing tons of shit from the neocons on Egypt

that doesn't conform to what the article says.