Muslims want children excused from music, mixed phys-ed classes

[Swede]

Like Shahina Siddiqui in the article said,who is advising these families?

-snip-

A dozen Muslim families who recently arrived in Canada have told Winnipeg's Louis Riel School Division that they want their children excused from compulsory elementary school music and coed physical education programs for religious and cultural reasons.


"This is one of our realities in Manitoba now, as a result of immigration," said superintendent Terry Borys. "We were faced with some families who were really adamant about this. Music was not part of the cultural reality."

"Who is advising them? My first concern would be who are these new immigrants talking to?" said Shahina Siddiqui, executive director of the Islamic Social Services. "This is the first time I am hearing this; I'm not very happy about it."



http://www.globalwinnipeg.com/world/Muslims+want+children+excused+from+music+mixed+phys+classes/4228444/story.html#ixzz1D74xFrb0

[FreakinDJ]

1. Ya came to the Wrong Country

[social_critic]

30. Or maybe the report is bogus

One never knows.

I coached very religious muslim children, in co-ed football teams, their parents brought them over on their own, it was a volunteer program. The only odd thing I noticed was their fear of dogs. Other than that, they were pretty normal kids. Girls wore a scarf on their heads, one of them eventually became an all star and made the local high school team - and that team was VERY good, our area had three All Americans in the under 16 US national football team at the time. By football I mean soccer, of course.

[villager]

2. you go to a new country -- do you adapt to it? Or does it adapt to you?

Always the tension, always the dance....

[provis99]

3. is music and coed phys-ed banned in the Koran?

Oh that's right: it isn't. This is just some bigoted cultural bullshit masquerading as religious belief.

[glinda]

4. Really would not surprise me if they are being advised by Conservatives in order to push hate.

[blueamy66]

5. I call bullshit.

Enroll them in a Muslim school, as my parents enrolled me in a Catholic school.

I am as liberal as the you all are, but this bullshit.

[ChazII]

7. +100 n/t

[blueamy66]

35. And WTF is wrong with music?

I just don't get it.....

I just went to a funeral for a co-worker's mother....they played my Mom and my Dad's favorite songs....brought me to tears....LOVE MUSIC...I feel bad for kids who are not exposed to it.

[ChazII]

39. I was agreeing with your earlier comment

where you mentioned enrolling their student in a Muslim school.

[blueamy66]

45. I know, but

I don't understand why some religions have problems with music.

[CJvR]

49. It distracts you!

Either it distracts you from the glory of GOD, or it might lead to dancing resulting in you meeting someone your clan disapprove of (someone who isn't your uncle or cousine). Or it might just be a determination not to rest until the entire world is as miserable and suicidal as the fundies.

It might be a bogus story but if it is it is so easy to sell because shit like this pops up more and more frequently.

[Jamastiene]

73. At the Christian school (Baptist) that I went to,

dancing was considered to be an action that would summon the Devil, so it was banned. Instead, we were told to hold our Bibles in the air and shake them around to expel Satan and all his minions. It was fun to do the Bible shaking thing at 5 years old...then I discovered music could sound good and the school I was going to was not right, REALLY not right in so many areas. I still don't dance, but it's not for religious purposes. I'm just sucky at dancing. I still don't see the Devil summoning thing, unless they had knowledge of the Macarena years before it became a fad.

[blueamy66]

91. +1

or it might make you want to fornicate.....

[SmileyRose]

51. Um what?

They aren't trying to stop all music and phys ed classes, only asking their kids not be required to participate. Why do they need a Muslim school for that?

We had Jewish kids who ate something else on "BLT" day. Big wooop.

[blueamy66]

90. Then send the kids to a Muslim school.

Public schools in AMERICA have music and phys ed classes. There are reasons for this. There are requirements to graduate and if you don't meet those reqs, you don't graduate.

We're not talking about food, we're talking about EDUCATION.

If you don't like the reqs of a public school, send your kids to a PRIVATE, RELIGIOUS school.

I had to take 2 years of phys ed to graduate.....did it...graduated.

What don't you understand?

[SmileyRose]

96. Er

The parents are asking for their kids to participate in same gender phys ed classes rather than co-ed phys ed classes.

And the idea that running around paying dodge ball is "education" is just laughable.

[blueamy66]

101. It was when I was a kid

Maybe that's why we have so many obese kids these days, ya think?

The fact that so many kids these days is not laughable.

[leftstreet]

6. OMG OMG OMG a whole DOZEN Muslim families?! We're all fucked

The end is nigh

:scared:

[derby378]

8. Those kids are welcome to borrow my Skinny Puppy CDs anytime

:evilgrin:

[DBoon]

43. a good Canadian band, eh?

[Codeine]

87. "Why does little Mohammed keep singing about vivisection?" nt

[derby378]

103. "And he keeps muttering about a sudden harsh smell."

"I thought the Febreze smelled pretty good, myself."

[OmahaBlueDog]

9. Then my answer would be the same as it would be to Catholic, Jewish, or Baptist families

"You should plan on budgeting to send your child to a faith based school. That's not what we do."

[Warren DeMontague]

37. +1,000,000 nt

[Dappleganger]

81. You do realize that there is taxpayer-funded Catholic school in Canada?

[OmahaBlueDog]

100. No, actually I did not know that

In Quebec or all over?

[Dappleganger]

102. They're called separate schools...

Wiki has a decent description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_school

[blueamy66]

104. [phone]

again

[Hannah Bell]

10. why is a story about a dozen immigrant families asking for something from a school district worthy

of a news article?

unless you're trying to jack up the anti-immigrant, anti-muslim fervor, that is?

i'd warrant all kinds of families ask for all kinds of things from school districts all the time. but somehow, it's not "news" unless a favored ox is gored.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. +1 million

We have many Muslim families in our district and a few have asked that their kids be excused from PE. The vast majority have not made this request however.

But the ones who have - the request is always honored. Not that big of a deal actually.

[Cid_B]

31. Yeah yeah...

There is no news value in that story at all unless there is an agenda...

Of course that agenda could be selling newspapers...

[Hannah Bell]

33. newspapers don't make any profit from selling papers.

and they never did.

their profit was always from advertising, and their value is in their ability to tell people what to think and what to think about.

[Cid_B]

68. Same difference and you know it...

More paper sold equals more advertising income....

There is value in the story and it's bullshit to pretend otherwise...

[Hannah Bell]

70. same difference as what?

if you haven't noticed, newspapers are losing money all over the country. the only reason they keep going is for the propaganda value.

[Cid_B]

72. Christ that's dense...

Newspaper... blog.. The Daily... f'ing subdermal implant beaming it into the brain... Whatever

I was noting your stance that anyone who reports on this story must have an anti-immigrant agenda and nothing else.

[Hannah Bell]

74. the paper isn't reporting about 12 families because it's "news".

they're reporting about it to jack up the anti-immigrant, anti-muslim tendencies in canada.

just like they do in the us.

and just like they have done throughout history when bust followed booms where immigrant labor was imported to hold down wages & jack up profits.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Ignore Thread Function Is Your Friend.

:kick:

[LanternWaste]

64. So are questions.

"Ignore Thread Function Is Your Friend..."

So are questions. One seems friendlier than the other. :shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

82. And here's the answer:

It's a story that people are talking about because it's a story that people want to talk about.

[WinkyDink]

59. I've seen stories of ONE PERSON here.

[MH1]

95. MANY stories at once on the same one person.

all too often.

[TheBigotBasher]

93. It is a local news story and the deliberate mireading

comes from a far right hate site.


http://thebigotbasher.com/2011/02/06/more-lies-and-hate-from-conservatives4palin-front-pager-kevin-dujan/

[treestar]

11. Adapt or set up private schools

That's is what I would tell them.

[Hello_Kitty]

12. Then send your kids to private school.

Problem solved. It's not the job of public schools to accommodate every religious preference.

[bluestateguy]

13. Um no.

They can go to a private school if that is what they want.

[walldude]

14. No music? That's like saying

no love, no joy, no life. Damn man, I feel bad for those kids.

[MilesColtrane]

15. When I was in High School my religious dictates stressed that...

Algebra and History classes were an abomination, and that I was required to partake of the sacred herb on a semi-daily basis.

The school district did not agree.

[csziggy]

16. Jehovah Witness children were exempt from music programs

When I was a kid. They also got out of class for lessons that involved any sort of religious celebration or mythology. The one young man in my classes asked to be excused from Humanities class when we had lessons about Egyptian, Greek, Roman or Scandinavian mythology. He was excused from Spanish class when the teacher covered Spanish Christmas celebrations as part of her cross cultural lesson plan.

There were also some other Christian children in my elementary school who got out of music - I was never sure of their religious denominations, but their faith did not approve of music other than strictly religious, if they allowed music at all.

But it was not considered outrageous, even 40-50 years ago, probably because most of the kids above were white.

[Arugula Latte]

18. That is sad/funny at the same time.

Jehovah's Witnesses oppose hearing about mythology. Good thing their beliefs are based on solid fact. :rofl:

I should go ring their doorbell and proselytize about Zeus and Thor.

[Swede]

20. Thor's okay in my book,but Zeus is a bunch of bull.

:shrug:

[csziggy]

26. Yeah, if you want bull, go straight for Mithras worship! n/t

[csziggy]

25. A friend once countered a street preacher's God rant with one on the Great God Pan

I wish I had been there or that someone had recorded it - from the accounts I have heard it was an epic counter rant!

The friend had been brought up as a back country preacher's son but had moved on and at the time was getting his master's in anthropology, so he had the right background to really lay it on.

[blueamy66]

105. Thanks for the laugh

I just don't get some people

[OHdem10]

17. When in Rome do as the Romans????

When Americans go to other countries, do they adapt or
do the countries change everything to suit them.

[LanternWaste]

60. Both.

"When Americans go to other countries, do they adapt or do the countries change everything to suit them...(?)"


Both. It's called acculturation. Been going on since the dawn of man. Takes a little longer than one or two school semesters though...

[Nye Bevan]

21. Muslims don't like music? I didn't know that.

Can any DUers shed any light on this?

[etherealtruth]

29. Maybe that's the "cultural" part .... ?

I'm not a Muslim, but I was married to a muslim for a decade and never heard any prohibitions against music ... ???!!!!

Coed gym might raise objections (not that I agree) .... the music thing has me stumped.

[SmileyRose]

52. Maybe the parents just want to choose what music the kid is exposed to.

[Codeine]

88. They're going to be sorely disappointed

when their kids become Cannibal Corpse fans.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. I've taught many of their kids and have never heard this before

:shrug:

[LeftishBrit]

22. I have a lot of contact with primary schools in a British city with a significant Muslim population

I do not know of any children who have been excused, or whose parents have asked to be excused, from PE or music, though some may have asked for some adaptations with regard to *clothing* for PE.

So it's certainly not a general 'Muslim' thing. Note that the executive director of the Islamic Social Services quoted here does not know of, or approve of, such restrictions.

It sounds to me like a combination of a particularly ultraconservative immigrant group making demands, and a newspaper probably wanting to portray immigrants in the worst possible light.

FWIW, I do not think that children should get religious exemptions from basic parts of the curriculum; nor do any of the Muslims whom I know, and I know quite a few (ditto for Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc.)

[Zax2me]

47. The newspaper could not potray them in worst possible light

If the families would not stand directly in it.

[LanternWaste]

65. ifficult to avoid a light when everyone has a flashlight aimed at you.

Difficult to avoid a light when everyone has a flashlight aimed at you.

[LeftishBrit]

85. It's not just about these families; it's that some newspapers want to portray ALL immigrants or all

Muslims, etc. in a bad light, so only report on those who act in a stupid or nasty way. Just as some media will be more ready to report crimes committed by people of one race than another.

These families are certainly stupid fundies (does 'fundie' apply to Muslims?) but they don't represent *all* Muslims. I've never heard before of Muslims objecting to music for example; though I know that there are small Christian sects that do, so no doubt it's the same for Muslims,

[thelordofhell]

23. They should have Yusuf Islam come to the school

Music is not against the Muslim religion

[Zoigal]

24. IMO if one moves to another country they should make an attempt to learn

the language, follow the laws, respect the customs, etc and
if they don't agree with public school curriculum then send their
kids to private schools/have them tutored/home schooled, etc.
And no, i'm no young progressive...in my eighties and been a
liberal all my life.....z

[Obamanaut]

42. Now, there's an opinion I can respect. +1 nt

[LanternWaste]

62. See post #60

The languages are learned. The customs are adopted. The cuisine is cooked. More often than not, it takes two to three generations for a immigrant family to become fully and firmly caught up into the trends, fads, and habits of pop culture.

Not fast enough for many people though, it would seem.

[LiberalEsto]

27. Why do people ban music ?

I just don't get it.

[etherealtruth]

36. Muslims don't ...

I don't understand this at all ....???

[miscsoc]

67. Certain nominally Islamic sects do, I'm pretty sure.

But I don't think mainstream or historical Islam has ever banned music. Perhaps someone who knows more can clarify this.

Due to ignorance about Islam (of which I am fairly guilty), nutters can claim that their own bizarre preferences are 'Islamic' and shared by other Muslims. I don't know who these people are, or what offshoot of Islam they belong to, but their reactionary preferences definitely shouldn't be indulged, and I've never heard of Muslims not wanting their daughters to learn music before.

[Generic Other]

28. We used a lot of excuses to try and get out of PE in my day

Back in the day, we just didn't want to get sweaty, mess up our hair, get a "C" that wrecked our GPA, or have to take showers under the watchful eye of spinster gym teachers. We NEVER considered invoking religion!

[Cid_B]

94. Question...

How does one actually get a C in gym?

[Generic Other]

106. Like to read more than you like to do jumping jacks?

I was never into competitive sports.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. If it works, we'll see a lot of kids donning headscarves and praising Allah.

[azurnoir]

34. perhaps there are some things not being said

such as what kind of music? Were the kids being required to sing Christian hymns or carols? Is that really what the complaint was about?:shrug:

also this got left out of the posted op

The families accept physical education, as long as the boys and girls have separate classes, but do not want their children exposed to singing or the playing musical instruments, Borys said. The division has suggested they could instead do a writing project to satisfy the music requirements of the arts curriculum.

However, a local Muslim leader says there is no reason for young kids to be held out of music or phys-ed classes based on religious and cultural grounds.

[LanternWaste]

63. We have DU'ers cry holy hell for just that thing...

We have DU'ers cry holy hell for just that thing...

Two or three Christmases ago, a DUer wanted an exemption from any and all Christmas oriented school activities for her son. Yet in this thread, that DU'er would be pilloried for not towing cultural line.

I too noticed the rather dramatic lack of the relevant grafs you added.

[southernyankeebelle]

40. Old saying: When in Rome do what the Romans do. Why the hell did they move there? People need

to adapt to their new country. What he does in his private home is their own business.

[Obamanaut]

44. self delete

[Dappleganger]

41. Well, if they didn't have an entire Catholic school system funded by taxpayers...

they probably wouldn't be in this mess. There's a history of trying to accomodate everyone instead of telling them to integrate, so now they'll have to lay in this bed they've made for themselves.

[Prometheus Bound]

46. In the original story in the Winnipeg Free Press they had to remove ALL comments.

No co-ed phys-ed, music: Muslims
Dozen families want children excused

We will no longer accept comments on this story as submissions have been consistently unacceptable.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/no-co-ed-phys-ed-music-muslims-115354939.html

[DonCoquixote]

48. I call BS

Especially since many Muslims I know are very much into Music. The Persians (aka Iranians) make a very big deal of the fact that THEY invented the Guitar and Violin.

[CJvR]

50. Perhaps...

...but fanatics are never into anything except whatever they are fanatical about.

What is the old quote again...?
"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and wont change the subject."

[sufrommich]

53. There are different sects in the Muslim religion as there are in

the Christian religion. There is a group of Lutherans in the upper peninsula of Michigan (I can't remember what they call themselves) who forbid music and dancing.

[Prometheus Bound]

71. The story is certainly not BS.

[Ramulux]

54. This is the same

as those Mormons who dont let their kids take physical science and biology classes because they talk about ideas Mormons are against. Its bullshit.

[defendandprotect]

55. Is your Separation of Church & State working ... ???

And presume that there are sane Muslims -- and that these are Fundamentalists --

Well, Fundamentalism doesn't work so well with our Christian-Taliban, either!


Who ever said that religion is good for mental health?



:eyes:

[a la izquierda]

56. This is so weird...

I had Muslim friends growing up and the girls participated in gym class and extracurricular sports. One friend wore long sleeves and loose pants under her running shorts and singlet. Nobody cared one iota. Another girl was not strict, so she wore shorts and t-shirts like everyone else.

This is a fishy story.

[Cairycat]

57. In elementary school

there are very often motions and/or dancing taught with the songs. I wonder if that is what the Muslim parents find objectionable. A number of Muslim children in my school district participate in band and orchestra, so I don't think music itself is the problem.

[WinkyDink]

58. So, I guess it's no longer "When in Rome,..." It's "Take your culture with you when you go."

[sufrommich]

61. There should be some common sense concessions to that rule.

Here in the Detroit area school districts set aside classrooms for muslim kids to spend lunchtime in during Ramadan so they don't have to sit and watch the other kids eat.I think that's a compassionate way to deal with it.

[WinkyDink]

66. True. But deciding your own education requirements? Nope.

[Hannah Bell]

75. as other posters have noted, there are ample precedents.

[Dappleganger]

80. Canada and the US have different approaches to culture.

In the US it's expected that immigrants from other countries adapt and blend in with society to a certain degree, especially with regard to speaking the language, conforming to laws, attending public school (and abiding by school rules uniformly), etc.

In Canada there has always been an encouragement of immigrants to keep their native culture and language as much as possible. There's a wide acceptance on one hand of this, but it can cause issues as well. I think this is why there is far less racism in Canada towards immigrants than there is in the US, as there is this attitude of multiple nations living together (notwithstanding the Quebecois issues); whereas in the good old USA the attitude is pretty much "drop your country at the port because you're in America now." There is much more pressure on children in particular to conform to general culture, speak without an accent, etc.

BTW, I think that Detroit's method of accommodation for muslim children is appropriate and supportive of their 1A rights, while not forcing any other child to be inconvenienced.

[lynne]

76. Simple solution - They should open their own private school -

- and they could then dictate the way physical education classes are held and the type music taught. Until then they need to abide by the approved curriculum as written.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

77. I grew up with a large number of refugees from Iran,

In Orange County in the 1980's and their kids enthusiastically assimilated whether their parents liked it or not and quickly. Their just fighting a futile holding action that will inevitably alienate their own children.

Forced to choose between allah and the hedonistic mayhem of being a North American teenager... their going to go with MTV, or perhaps in this case MuchMusic.

[Turborama]

78. I live in Indonesia, the largest Muslim majority population in the world. That title is misleading..

As is the article. It implies 1.5 billion Muslims want children excused from music, mixed phys-ed classes.

FYI Inul was a very very popular overnight sensation here and everyone knows her name...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkWWi1GgMX4

And check out how many views these Dangdut videos get: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Dangdut&aq=f

[Violet_Crumble]

83. I agree. The title of the article is very misleading. It makes out it's about Muslims in general....

I did a quick google to see where this was appearing, and it's no surprise to see that JihadWatch has eagerly picked this one up and run with it. I guess the headline itself appeals to ones like them....

[Dappleganger]

84. It's my understanding that

Muslim sects/practice is as varied as those of Christianity, right? I would compare those who don't want their children to sing or be in mixed PE to several types of fundamental Christian groups. In the US it's more common for these people to send their children to private religious schools or to homeschool rather than make demands of the public school to accommodate their religious choices which may fall outside the norm of the community.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MH1]

99. Yeah, that's why they don't want evolution taught in public schools

because they are willing to "send their children to private religious schools or to homeschool rather than make demands of the public school to accommodate their religious choices which may fall outside the norm of the community."

and that's why many kids can't get appropriate sex education at school.

and that's why some schools who see a benefit in making condoms available, cannot do so. Because as we all know, fundamentalists never want their religion to intrude in government or public education.

[Capitalocracy]

79. They're lucky they have a music program.

If things continue down the road they're headed, not a lot of kids in the U.S. will be so lucky.

[mainer]

86. Wow. Talk about the opposite of Tiger parents.

Chinese parents would consider music not only compulsory but YOU MUST PRACTICE OR I'LL BURN YOUR STUFFED ANIMALS.

As music seems so closely aligned with achievements in math, this anti-music stand seems at odds with academic achievement.

[TheBigotBasher]

92. From the rest of the article:

However, a local Muslim leader says there is no reason for little kids to be held out of music or phys-ed classes on religious and cultural grounds.

That shouldn’t be happening, said Shahina Siddiqui, executive director of the Islamic Social Services.

“Who is advising them? My first concern would be, who are these new immigrants talking to?” said Siddiqui. “This is the first time I am hearing this — I’m not very happy about it.”

Siddiqui said there is no problem with elementary school children taking phys-ed together: “No, not with little kids under the age of puberty.”

Some middle school and senior high students have asked not to mix genders in phys-ed, and they have been accommodated by schools, she said.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/no-co-ed-phys-ed-music-muslims-115354939.html

The first half of the story is being pushed by Neo-Nazi hate sites such as DickSpuzz to promote hate.

A dozen Muslim families wanted their children excluded from music and mixed PE. Not all Muslims.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laundry_queen]

98. Fundies of any kind are messed.

Whether it's Christian fundies who think dancing invokes the need to fornicate or Muslim fundies who think mixing boys and girls in gym class is evil. Fortunately, the hardcore fundies are a minority. Also, this being in Canada, the school system is more likely to make accomodations, but make no mistake - anti-immigrant, anti-muslim sentiment is strong here in Canada as well, hence the article.
My daughters' music classes don't just teach classical music. They have had teachers in the past teach them rock and pop music as well, so perhaps it is that type of music that is being objected to. I personally don't think they should be able to 'opt out' of those subjects - can you imagine the uproar if they wanted to opt out of, say, science or math?? The solution, imo would be private school or homeschooling. However, as mentioned upthread, because we also have a publicly funded catholic school system (which is total bullshit imo) it is harder to draw that line between religious customs and public school.