LIHEAP. The cuts that were talked about last week have been confirmed.

[truebrit71]

I would like to know what everyone thinks about this.

There were several threads on this subject last week, and whilst the large majority were furious that a Democratic President would propose something this heartless, there were some that suggested that this was "speculation" and to "wait until the report comes out"

Well, now it's out. The cuts, as outlined last week, are in there. What do you think, now that they've been confirmed?

[Vincardog]

1. I think we should begin the movement to draft a DEMOCRATIC presidential candidate in 2012

[4dsc]

2. I had the same thought last week.

[rurallib]

6. yep!

[rurallib]

7. I think it is the biggest kick in the balls the Dems could give a

group of citizens.
It says to me two things:
1) we, like the repubs, only care about the rich
2) there are disposable people in this country.

[glinda]

100. The "rich" used to have to care about us when they depended upon us for

our labor and our buying power. But now they they ship everything overseas, they could give a rat's ass about the people here.
I think we should revolt and send them to to other Countries and then confiscate their money and start new businesses that hire people here.

[nashville_brook]

8. amen to that!

[woo me with science]

16. [phone] nt

[Horse with no Name]

69. I agree Vince.

Hope you are doing well!

[Sherman A1]

83. Agreed & Well Said

the only thing I can do right now is.... :banghead:

[williesgirl]

93. Obama has to go or we'll have 2 Repukes on the ballot. rec'd

[ThomCat]

95. I agree. Obama is not a real democrat.

He keeps implementing Republican policies. x(

[Luciferous]

96. I'm with you!

[Lorien]

98. Yes. The time for that has come

Our hopes for changed have been turned upside down in ways that probably no one here would have imagined on election night 2008.

[pecwae]

106. Either that

or wait for the current office holder to recall how he came to be the president of ALL the people. Thing is, I don't think the poorest have that kind of time to expend on waiting -- again and more.

[SammyWinstonJack]

110. +1000

:applause:

[mike_c]

119. absolutely agree!

:thumbsup:

[killbotfactory]

126. Jesus christ

Nevermind the fact that it is a waste of time, and challenging Obama and winning is impossible, do you even understand how the office of president functions, the sorry state of our congress, and what forces will align against a "truly awesome really really real democratic" president? No matter who you put in charge they will be forced into the compromises Obama is making if they want to do anything other than issue executive orders and talk a big game while accomplishing little other than massive gridlock. Meanwhile most people will turn on them for trying to stick to some ideological purity instead of actually governing.

Help organize progressives into a solid political force and you'll get more shit done than whining about every perceived and exaggerated failure or betrayal coming from the white house, or running protest candidates who will just waste a bunch of time and money.

[somone]

3. In ObamaWorld, War Is Peace, Disappointment Is Happiness

"I am like a Rorschach test. Even if people find me disappointing ultimately, they might gain something." - Barack Obama, 2008

People are gaining a dent in their backside on a continuous basis.

[glinda]

101. He has lost his way.

[Blue Owl]

4. Goddamn it

I was really hoping this wasn't true.

Time to let the powers that be know what I think about this...

:mad: :-( :argh: :grr: :banghead: :thumbsdown: :puke:

[glinda]

102. I can tell by your emoticons that you are very upset. Me too.

[Autumn]

5. Lets wait and see what happens.

we don't need to go off half cocked and discuss it to death. Doesn't it have to be debated and discussed by the powers that be yet? We have plenty of time to be alarmed.
How about those tax increases that are in the proposal? Even though they were defeated by the last Congress, I am quite sure this one will take care of them so its all good. Even if they don't isn't it WONDERFUL that they were suggested?

Of course all I'm doing is speculating.

:sarcasm: Got to thinking this might be needed

[karynnj]

9. I agree - I wonder if this is something that can get the votes - without Obama's support

Even Republicans in the North are in favor of it. If the money on this is restored (maybe with an offsetting provision), Obama will not veto the budget.

[Autumn]

14. It already has Obamas support

those are his proposals. I misunderstood your post, I hope there will be someone to speak out against these cuts. I'll give kudos to any republican willing to do so.

[BlueCheese]

17. If I may interject...

... I think karynnj means keeping LIHEAP has support, not cutting LIHEAP.

It seems unlikely to me that Congress will push hard for it given that the Republicans are in charge of the House and that Obama has proposed cutting it. Obama has conceded or joined the Republicans' pernicious narrative that we must cut spending. The debate now is not whether government should turn its back on the poor, but to what extent. In that context, a whole lot of bad things are going to happen.

[Autumn]

18. Thank you. I misunderstood

can't watch Scooby Doo with the Granddaughter and post at the same time.

[karynnj]

85. I knew it was Obama's budget - and there are people already against it

In fact, John Kerry put out a strong statement almost as soon as the proposal leaked. I think every MA Congressperson and the junior Senator have said it should not be cut - as have the two Maine Senators - that was why I said that there might be enough support to keep the full amount in, especially if they find an offset - it really isn't a huge amount of money - but it is extremely important to the people who need it.

[CrispyQ]

41. Yes, the accusations of Chicken Little abounded last week.

This week? Crickets.

[Zhade]

112. That's because all sycophants are cowards at heart.

NT!

[QC]

138. It's hard to defend the indefensible.

That doesn't keep some people from trying, but still....

[Lyric]

10. Fear. Anxiety. Grief.

I feel like I can't even breathe right now.

I guess it must be easy to impose "pain" on people who are voiceless, powerless, and utterly without recourse. Especially when those who are doing it are wealthy and secure enough that THEY are certainly in no danger.

My Mom's LIHEAP literally keeps her alive. It pays her electric bill during the cold months, which (in addition to heat) also runs her oxygen concentrator. That helps her save back the money to keep the bill paid during the warmer months.

If her LIHEAP is cut, I don't know what we'll do. There are other orgs that can help with utility bills, but those organizations are meant to provide one-time emergency assistance. They don't help every month--in fact, most of them have rules that forbid you to apply for assistance again for 6 months to a year. So they might help with December's bill next year...but what about January, February, and March?

God help us...

:(

[glinda]

103. I think they want them to go to keep warm in a Church.

[woo me with science]

11. You are ignoring everything GOOD in the budget!

This is the pragmatic approach! :puke:

[MrMickeysMom]

111. Aahhh... a master chess board move, no doubt!

So masterful that we surely cannot see the larger goal!

:puke:

[Freddie Stubbs]

12. Congress may decided not to implement the cuts

[Autumn]

15. Yeah we know how badly republicans

just hate for poor people to lose their safety nets.

[Freddie Stubbs]

19. Republicans are not in majority in the Senate

[truebrit71]

25. Someone needs to tell that to Harry Reid..because you could have fooled me...

...these last two years..

[Freddie Stubbs]

47. Health Care Reform, DADT Repeal, SCHIP expansion, New START Treaty

[truebrit71]

53. GITMO, Afghanistan, TSA, Water-Boarding, Patriot Act...see? Anyone can do it...

...

[Freddie Stubbs]

54. Afghanistan? Escalation in Afghanistan is the official policy of the Democratic Party

If you don't believe me, I suggest that you read the platform.

[truebrit71]

55. And?

..what about the rest? Gitmo, torture, wire-tapping, war crimes, illegal wire-tapping, restoring the 4th amendment...

[Freddie Stubbs]

120. If Republicans are running the show, how did the Democratic initiatives I mentioned pass

[rhett o rick]

118. Tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. Do you support that? nm

[Freddie Stubbs]

121. I support President Obama's compromise which extended the tax cuts for all Americans and

extended long-term unemployment benefits.

[rhett o rick]

123. And drove the stake further thru the heart of the lower class. I figured you would. nm

[Freddie Stubbs]

125. How would the lower class have benefited from not extending unemployment benefits?

[rhett o rick]

127. The application of a band-aid while we get bludgeoned with the hundreds of

millions of tax breaks for the wealthy that will have to be made up by the lower class.

The issues should have been separated and voted on separately.

[Freddie Stubbs]

129. The Republicans had enough votes in the Senate to stop any legislation

The unemployment benefits extension wasn't going to pass with some GOP support in the Senate. Those who depend on unemployment benefits can use that money to pay the rent and put food on the table. Knowing that some rich guy is going to get a tax increase doesn't pay for those things.

[rhett o rick]

115. Do I understand you approve of the budget cuts? And increases in military spending? Is that the

centrist way? Rob from the poor and give to the rich.

[Freddie Stubbs]

122. The budget cuts are necessary to start getting the deficit under control

[rhett o rick]

124. That's a purely republican talking point. Cutting social services will further kill the lower class

Is that your objective? What about the bloated defense budget? Republlicans and Obama want to increase it, I assume you do too.

[Freddie Stubbs]

128. No, it's President Obama's talking point

The President's budget actually cuts defense spending:

The Obama administration’s $671 billion defense budget for fiscal 2012, which is $37 billion less than the current year’s request, may set up a fight in Congress with senior lawmakers opposed to such a reduction.

more: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-15/republicans-may-fight-obama-s-671-billion-2012-defense-budget.html

[rhett o rick]

130. I am sure I read otherwise but am unable to locate the source. I must be wrong. nm

[truebrit71]

134. That is the biggest pile of bullshit I have yet to see anyone spew in defense of this budget...

It "cuts" defense spending because it is a smaller increase than originally requested?

So if I ask for a 10% pay raise but only get 5% I actually took a pay cut?

I want some of what you are smoking mate...

[woo me with science]

49. I suspect any compromises will go the other direction.

Republicans want to slash MORE, not less. It is obscene that this is President Obama's STARTING point in these negotiations.

[rhett o rick]

117. lol. Last week you said "Obama may not propose the cuts". Wrong, Now you say "Congress may not...."

Well I guarantee the Republicans in the House will love the Obama cuts and ADD MORE. We might have some hope in the Senate but I doubt it. Corporatism/centritism is killing the middle class. And some "Democrats" here SUPPORT the cuts.

[EOTE]

13. Yes, but what of all those poor people who Obama HASN'T doomed?

I mean, there are millions of impoverished Americans living in the South who won't need heating assistance at all. In fact, some of those poor folk might even be able to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps from a job given to them by some wealthy person who can now afford to create jobs thanks to a continuation of their tax cuts. I really think we need to hold off a while before condemning Obama for this. After all, this just might give the poor the motivation to no longer be poor. It's like Obama is giving them a gentle push by saying "Why don't you try NOT being poor for a change?"

[somone]

20. Or: "Why don't you try NOT being elderly or handicapped for a change?"

For poor college kids: "Why don't you try a Hawaii private boarding school/Columbia/Harvard for a change?"

[EOTE]

21. Now you've got it.

Now you know what it's like to think like a republican. Blissfully ignorant, emphasis on the ignorant.

[rhett o rick]

133. I think you've got something there. Just stay away from me with it. nm

[Bluenorthwest]

22. One can count on hypocrites to do the opposite of that which they

claim to hold to be holy. This President boasts of his deep Christianity while taking from the least among us to give to the richest people who have ever lived. I am sick of hearing his sermons against equal rights based on this faith he mocks with his actions.

[glinda]

104. The more he espouses Religion the less he practices it.

[MasonJar]

23. What do I think? I think it is despicable and unacceptable.

[defendandprotect]

24. Obama needs to go -- that's my feeling about it all--!!

[uponit7771]

33. Please explain what you mean by this? Regards

[defendandprotect]

75. A challenger for 2012 -- let's DRAFT Sen. Bernie Sanders -- he can run as a Democrat --

and he'll draw liberals to the election -- those who are staying home --

and those involved with liberal third parties!!

[Vincardog]

84. ++11

[glinda]

105. It would only work if there are strong majorities of progressives

elected to the House, Senate and Governorships. If not you will doom Bernie to a life being trapped.

[defendandprotect]

109. Otoh, as far as I can see, Obama is doing great harm to the Democratic Party ...

we saw that in 2010 when so many stayed home in reaction to his pro-corporate

agenda --

By 2012 -- especially given the destructive policies he's embracing re Social

Security and Medicare -- many more may stay home.

IMO, we have to do everything we can to keep the liberal voting bloc together

and I think Bernie Sanders is the way to permit that to happen.

We would also strengthen the ticket with Democrats from outside the party --

we would need a strong Democrat in the VP position -- from Wm. Greider to Tom Hayden.

Probably dozens more who could be suggested.

[SammyWinstonJack]

113. +1000!

:thumbsup:

[Amonester]

26. *crickets*

As usual.

[Starry Messenger]

27. Are we allowed to discuss it now?

:sarcasm:

Listen to the sound of the apologies from people who said this couldn't possibly be true:

[QC]

107. Better not just yet. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

28. Kick, because I'm waiting with baited breath for the usual suspects to chime in. n/t

[Ignis]

35. +1, though my breath is bated.

;) :hi:

[superduperfarleft]

36. Touche.

I'd blame lack of coffee, but that would just be cutting my nose off to spider face.

;)

[truebrit71]

43. They're heeeeeeeeere.....

...just take a look downthread...

[bvar22]

60. waiting too.

[superduperfarleft]

61. Well, the guy they sent in isn't doing too well.

I expect him to be tagged out shortly.

[truebrit71]

66. LOL!!

:rofl:

Thanks for the giggle!

[kickysnana]

29. It is criminal. n/t

[librechik]

30. Democrats in the House should fight this

Once again, he's giving the PuKKKes everything they want in the begionning, hoping it eill avoid a fight. Wrong again.

[jillan]

31. WTF? I am so pissed that I am ready to

take my dog for a long walk to blow off some steam.

Omg - how dare they!

[CrispyQ]

45. And we thought our outrage fatigue would finally be over with boosh gone.

~sigh

:hi:

[truebrit71]

63. That's what I find increasingly annoying...

..it seems like there's a new capitulation every day...It's definitely not the "change" I "hoped" for two long years ago...

[defendandprotect]

92. ...and another two years of this to go -- !!!!

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mojorabbit]

67. the fact that energy levels are lower

was debunked in a recent thread showing the cost of heating fuel over the past few years. The price of a barrel of oil may be lower but that does not necessarily translate to a decrease at the end point.

[uponit7771]

34. *******NOTICE OP DOES NOT POST LINK TO WH RESPONSE ON LIHEAP******

If I were to bet on why I'd lean towards maybe not being able to find it so I'll post it here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=611473&mesg_id=611473

[phleshdef]

37. Thats because they don't want it discovered that the LIHEAP outrage is a red herring.

[truebrit71]

44. Yeah, who needs heat in the winter? Thepoor should just just "man up" right?

...heating oil prices have gone UP, not down..read the facts, not the talking points...

[uponit7771]

46. Gone up from 2009 levels?...link and quote please...eom

[superduperfarleft]

51. You didn't ask me, but here you go.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/hopu/hopu.asp

[uponit7771]

56. Do you have the 200-2009 years? This shows 09 -10...

...regards

[superduperfarleft]

57. Wait, you want 2008 numbers now?

(I think you skipped a key).

I thought you were asking for 2009-2010 numbers?

Best I feel like doing (2008 shows 20% estimated increase across the board, which doesn't take into account the differences between the Northeast and other, traditionally warmer parts of the country): http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/15/news/economy/home_heating/index.htm

I'm sure you can use the google if you need more than this.

[katnapped]

70. Um, there are TABLES on that site

That show historical pricing for propane and heating oil...no they're not displayed with pretty colors and graphs but they prove the point that prices are going UP not down.

[truebrit71]

42. *******NOTICE REPLY DOES NOT POST LINK TO ACTUAL FACTS ON HEATING OIL PRICES****

Maybe because they didn't find it...

Here you go... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-14/vt-delegation-protests-plan-for-heating-aid-cut.html

[uponit7771]

48. ummm, that's from last year not 2009 when the 50% increase for LIHEAP was implemented.

...Remember, it's bloomberg magazine

Regards

[truebrit71]

58. I'm sorry, but I'm missing your point. The article clearly states that heating oil has gone up..

..SINCE LAST YEAR...

What is the point you are trying to make?

[uponit7771]

71. from 08-09 levels NO!! they're below them.

[superduperfarleft]

62. Dude, I gave you 2009 numbers upthread.

Pay attention...

[uponit7771]

72. The fuel year was 08-09...not 09-10, the WH is sayin the 08 yrs was 4 dollars now it's below that

[superduperfarleft]

76. What part of the link I posted are you not getting?

This is ridiculous, you seem to be making these numbers up out of thin air. Where on the link does it show that (1) the price in 2008 (fiscal year, winter year, whatever the hell you want to use) is $4 a gallon and (2) that the price is lower now?

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPD2F_PRS_NUS_DPG&f=W

Am I speaking japanese here or something? Can anyone else understand what I've typed? Because this guy seems to be having a really hard time understanding me, and I just want to make sure I'm not having a stroke or something.

[uponit7771]

79. The graph I'm looking at for 08-09 year has a dot JUST below 4 a gallon and we haven't reached that

...yet....

[superduperfarleft]

81. Which means you didn't click my link, because my page has a table NOT a graph.

Figures. Thanks for confirming for me that I'm completely and utterly wasting my time with this "conversation."

[ProSense]

38. Obama's budget and low-income families, head start, homelessness

here

[CreekDog]

97. which will help them not freeze to death?

:shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. Not to worry. If enough people freeze to death, Obama will "revisit" it.

[somone]

40. He will fight very hard

in a future year

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. Yes. Very hard. If the time right, he has enough votes, and his Republican pals agree.

[defendandprotect]

78. +1000% --

[Lorien]

99. Or burn to death. Spaceheaters kill quite a few poor people every year

my caught on fire in college and I was lucky to survive. Many aren't so fortunate.

[rhett o rick]

132. No he wont. It wont even make the media. What makes you think he cares? nm

[_ed_]

59. "We are the people we've been waiting for..."

to slash benefits for the poor, prosecute two wars, assassinate Americans without due process, pay off the rich, etc.

[leftstreet]

64. +1

:cry:

[joanski0]

65. So sad. There's a lot of people in

this very small town who rely on heating assistance. I don't understand why all of us have to pay for George Bush's war and very rich people's tax cuts.

[druidity33]

68. PLEASE, SOMEONE, PLEASE.....

just list the LIHEAP expenditures year by year from 2000 or so (maybe with a list that also shows the price of oil) to the present, so that folks can make up their own minds about the "cuts". I can't find a clear compilation for these numbers anywhere.

I was under the impression that the Stimulus funds added to LIHEAP for a couple of years, but that afterwords, the levels would fall back to pre-2008/9 amounts. Is this not true? What's the funding level now (adjusted for inflation) compared to pre-Stimulus levels?

:shrug:

[uponit7771]

74. ******THANK YOU!!!!******* (Hear are the prices for the years, notice 08-09 winter year was higher )

...than now making the WH technically correct on their cost assesment.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPD2F_PRS_NUS_DPG&f=W

[superduperfarleft]

77. No it does not!

Jesus christ, don't repost the link I provided if you're going to outright distort what it says.

Seriously, dude, are you illiterate? Are you special or something? I feel like I'm explaining calculus to a three-year-old.

edit: You know what? Fuck it. Go ahead and be wrong on the internet, I don't have the time or patience to hold your hand through this.

[uponit7771]

80. I'm reading your graph that shows a peak dot just below 4 a gallon and we haven't reached that level

...yet soooooo.

Don't know what point you're trying to make.

Regards

[superduperfarleft]

82. As I said above, my link shows a table NOT a graph.

Which means you didn't click on it. Which means it is pointless for me to attempt to engage you when you can't even be arsed to do the tiniest bit of research.

I guess that's an hour or so of my life I'll never get back. So thanks.

[uponit7771]

87. K, here's what I see from the link you posted....img inside

[truebrit71]

89. Do you see how the little red dots in 2009 and 2010 are going up?

It means they are spiking back to the same levels as they were a few years ago. Which means that argument that the prices are 50% lower is bullshit.

[uponit7771]

90. ...yes, I also see they have NOT gone up above 08-09 numbers when they do people can claim the WH is

...wrong but "rising" doesn't mean risen above making the WH technically correct in their justiication even though more people now are UE'd and need it than in 08.

[truebrit71]

91. So when the poor people freeze to death next winter will they only be "technically dead"..

...or will they be ACTUALLY fucking dead...

Go take your rationalizations somewhere else pal because I ain't buyin the horseshit you're selling...

[rhett o rick]

116. Having no empathy is a republican trait. nm

[QC]

136. Apparently it's not just for goopers anymore.

[truebrit71]

86. Oh well as long as they are 'technically correct' then that's alright yes? Heating oil has RISEN...

..what don't you understand about that?

P.S. Which year is this budget for? 2011-2012 right? Who gives a fuck about 2008 prices if they dropped, they WENT UP AGAIN..."technically right" or not, the cuts are still being made and the poor are going to suffer...but as long as you and the WH are 'technically correct' (which in reality you actually aren't) then the poor can just go fuck themselves right?

Regards

[Bonobo]

114. I studied the numbers. You are not telling the truth.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x419042#419960

[truebrit71]

88. Did you read actually read your post, or was it a cut and paste...?

If the budget for next year is 2.5 billion LESS than this year it ISN'T a cut if you use some fancy accounting or sleight of hand?

On what fucking planet does that make sense?

So, in your world, if I had two children this year, but next year I will only have one child, it isn't less because two years ago I started out with only one child.

ARE YOU FUCKING MAD?

[Mojeoux]

73. Uck-fay uck-fay uck-fay!! nt

[RandomThoughts]

94. shrug.

They keep going the wrong direction. And think it is for correct reasons.

I figure they are opposites, maybe it is the reporting, that is the opposites.

What is being done, and what is reported, does not match up. So there are more problems then what is being done, but also the reporting of it.

The reporting keeps telling stories of running further and further into race to the bottom and worse effects.

Then again they haven't figured out that I am due beer and travel money and paid that yet either, so what do you expect.

:shrug:


And I was asserting that long before I saw the correlations in metaphor around that topic.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

108. President Obama proposed a budget

It has things we don't like in it and nobody is particularly satisfied with it. Fine. Now, we need to get busy pressuring the WH and Congress to change what we don't like about it. That's how it's supposed to work, right? Or do we now just find fault with President Obama and get ready to throw him overboard next year? I'm not defending what seems like a fairly lackluster budget proposal from him but, frankly, given the Republican control of the House and their own "budget", I was expecting him to promote something that was fairly moderate. I do like his attempt to get rid of oil and gas subsidies and his attempts to make some more investments in transportation and infrastructure (something we've needed badly for several years). There's certainly more to do but this should viewed as a starting point not an endpoint and there is still more drama to come with the Republicans attempts to further gut domestic problems while asking for more and more deficit-busting tax cuts.

[sad sally]

135. Unless you're a professional lobbyist or make a SUBSTANTIAL

contribution to your congresspersons, the DLC and the President's re-election campaign, do you actually think that any pressure put on the WH and Congress by the people changes their minds? Bet those gas and oil companies are flooding the halls of congress - probably even writing the new "tough" legislation. How can you compete with them?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

137. O.k.

Well, I guess the system IS rigged and NOTHING you or I do makes one bit of difference, so what's the point of trying to change things? Just surrender to helplessness and hopelessness. Feel better now? :shrug:

[Odin2005]

131. OBAMA WANTS THE POOR TO DIE.