Was Jack Kervorkian ahead of his time? Is it the time now? (Serious question)

[Stinky The Clown]

This topic may squick some people, but my intent in raising it is serious.

There can be no doubt that a part of the financial crisis will be health care, quality of life, and the cost to care for the elderly. These costs will increase rapidly staring in the next year or three as Boomers age. Speaking as a Boomer, there is also the matter of quality of life. As we are able to live longer even while being sicker, what will be the quality of life we'll face in our later years?

When you start to conflate the cost of an aging population with the quality of life issues, it makes sense to let some of us make the choice to check out at a time and place of our own choosing, and to do so with dignity. Maybe now, with the recent mean streak this country's political leadership in both parties has exhibited, the time is right to put such matters to a public hearing.

There has always been a case for enlightened suicide, I think. I am not sure at all how I might make that choice, but, as for so many other things, it ought to be a matter of one's rights to free choice. That's one discussion, and it took place while Dr. Kervorkian was in the news. Today's discussion is about whether or not the political climate is right to open the discussions again.





CC voyeurs - get a life. Irony intended.

[LiberalEsto]

1. Well, if they eliminate pensions

AND they kill Social Security, that's what some of us might be facing in the future.

[Stinky The Clown]

3. Frankly, that was part of my calculus in posing this question

They've essentially robbed blind everyone with a self-directed retirement plan. They've stolen the wealth people had in their homes (downsize at retirement and use the proceeds as part of one's nest egg). They're now at war with declared benefit plans (see Kentucky as but one example).

So yeah .... that's part of it, for sure.

[LiberalEsto]

18. Oh yes, I forgot about depreciating home values

So much for that safety net.

Let's not forget that some of us are struggling to pay our kids' student loans because they can't find jobs after graduating. So we can't save for "retirement" either.

I wonder if Google has instructions on how to build your own mud hut. Or would it be better to stock up on duct tape for the next 10-15 years and use THAT to build the "retirement" home for our "golden years"?

[RKP5637]

2. IMO yes. I certainly don't want a shadow of a life prolonged for me with no

reason than to suffer and with no dignity of life. A living will helps, but one can go through a lot anyway.

[Stinky The Clown]

4. I hear you!

Even a living will goes only part way. It can specify no life support, but one can still suffer. And what was life like to the point where the living will needed to be invoked.

It seems to me that many people (let's say and early stage 4 cancer patient) would like to check out on their own terms in their own time and before life deteriorates too far.

[pacalo]

5. In today's political climate, acceptance of this alternative is definitely possible.

If it became a reality, however, the politicians would see to it that the insurance companies, hospital businesses, pharmaceutical companies, medical supply companies, etc., all get a piece of the $$$ pie.

[Stinky The Clown]

8. Heh ..... would it be a covered event, I wonder?

And who would pay if one attempted and failed?

[pacalo]

12. Oh, yeah, that pesky "pre-existing condition" thingy.

[Maru Kitteh]

6. I thing Jack K. was a sometimes unhelpful spokesperson for an important issue that

might have been much more well-received if Kevorkian had been less abrasive, less of a sensationalist.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. Good point

I actually agree with you . . . . to a point.

But that's beside the issue in ths debate - although, if it somehow gained legs and passed now, I have no doubt that Kervorkian will have to be given some of the credit. A raised consciousnesses is a raised consciousness.

[blondeatlast]

9. Kevorkian simply came off as a morbid Peeping Tom.

It's such an important issue to have had such a, well, creepy spokesperson.

Having survived my own coma and both parents valiantly clinging to life, not ready to go, and now watching my sister struggle through chemo and fully intending to win, I've not known anyone personally who saw assisted suicide as a real choice, but I won't discount those who do and I'd like to hear ethicists, spiritual leaders, and legal experts lead the debate.

[blondeatlast]

10. It opens a whole 'nother can of worms, legally, ethically,

and, well, economically.

the time to start a dialog about is past due, though. It's just like with most issues that challenge moral and spiritual beliefs, any legal solutions (and ultimately, that's what it must come down to) that allow it are going to be some time in the future.

As I say above, it's a shame Kevorkian opened the bottle, IMHO.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. "it's a shame Kevorkian opened the bottle"?

Not arguing . . . trying to understand . . . . .

It is a shame Kervorkian did the bottle opening?

or

It is a shame the bottle got opened?

[blondeatlast]

13. Sorry--that he was the one who opened it. He just (at least to me) came off

as a little (trying to describe it; not easy!) overzealous and a little too "happy" to help his clients along. I think it's a viable alternative for many, but there's a lot of delicate strings to tie up, and he just seemed* kind of morbid. I watche d the HBO documentary thoug--and was quite frankly scared. I've made it very well known to my family that they better be damn sure I'm ready to go before any tubes are pulled; as I say above, I survived a coma and had we been more "enlightened" at the time, I might have been helped along the way. It's a touchy, tocuhy issue with me.

*OTOH; I think you know that I share a healthy distrust for the media as you do, and that may have just been the way he was portrayed.

[Stinky The Clown]

21. Thanks for the explanation

You said you want your family to be damned sure you're ready for a DNR. I agree. It is a deeply personal decision. I'm not sure what i want for myself and am therefore less sure that even Sparkly would know what I wanted were I to suddenly be in a bad place.

No easy answers here.

[Denninmi]

14. My sister knew Kevorkian professionally.

He seemed to have the right motives, but didn't always carry it out well.

One of the ironies of the outcome, and of the question posed by the original poster, IMO, is that the Republicans/Teabaggers are creating an economic situation where many people would indeed like to have the option to end their lives in a dignified manner, yet that will be strictly forbidden under the "moral" code which the right wing/right to life theocrats want to impose upon the rest of us. Another irony, along the lines of "we believe in the sanctity of human life, so no abortions, but we don't give a rat's ass about the welfare of the child after it's born, and oh, by the way, we strongly support the death penalty even though we're 'pro life'".

They truly want to bring us back to a state of serfdom to the corporation, where we live as long as THEY want us to stay alive.

[RKP5637]

16. They want to control "everything" including peoples bodies. It's the ultimate

control they are about, birth to death. And depending upon the religion they want to control one after death too with eternal damnation or bliss. What a F'en control freak trip they are on.

And, as you say, "They truly want to bring us back to a state of serfdom to the corporation ..." And here's the odd part about it, many of them don't even have the money or wits to escape the ultimate serfdom themselves, but they are too witless to see this. And one can't even explain it to them.

[alc]

15. I heard that health care reform requires old folks to meet kevorkian

</sarc>

It's sad but economics may be what allows us to be humane and allow terminally ill to have control of their life.

[femrap]

17. Dr. Kervorkian is a hero

to me. We put down our beloved pets when there is no cure and we know they are suffering. Yet humans are are put through such agonizing pain with a complete loss of dignity.

My aunt died recently. It was horrible. She had wasted away to a mere 85 pounds. She was filled w/ morphine. She had no strength at the end of her life that she couldn't make it to the toilet resulting in her wearing diapers. I knew that when that happened she would die. Diapering didn't last 24 hours.

The doctors had filled her with chemo and when her body couldn't take it anymore, they just shoved her into hospice. They had taken money and more money....then they sent her home to die. She was in such bad shape....and the family was so sad. Hospice people visited a couple times per week to help change the bed. THESE PEOPLE ARE PAID NOTHING!!!!

I hate the Big 'Health.'

I was at the pharmacy today and was talking to a woman about DNRs (Do Not Rescusitate). I said I'm getting the letters 'KMN' tatooed on my forehead before I have to go into a hospital.....KILL ME NOW!

Our culture dismisses the elderly....makes fun of them. Let us die if we want to die.

[RKP5637]

20. For a country that brags about itself to other nations in many ways it's quite

pathetic, and much of the misery in the US is hidden out of sight, out of mind. It's a la la land.

[janet118]

22. Anyone who has had to deal with elderly health care system in this country . . .

knows that it is horrific. Instead of a system that provides a way for the elderly to stay at home as long as possible and die with peace and dignity, older people with medical problems are institutionalized prematurely - often miles from their hometown and roots. They are over-medicated and often have their lives artificially prolonged, irrespective of the quality of those lives.

Meanwhile, since it now takes two incomes to support a family, and those income earners must work longer, less regular hours, there are fewer options for family members to care for their own elderly parents and relatives. Medical procedures and nursing care drain middle-class families of financial resources, ensuring that they can leave little to nothing or even debt to their children. With the right wing and their Democratic friends going after Social Security, pensions, and Medicare, it will be even worse for the next generation. As the "greatest generation" dies off, so does the first and last of the middle class. Good-bye, New Deal.

How do other cultures handle care of the aging? Is it more or less humane? It's well beyond time to look into alternatives to our current system.

[Stinky The Clown]

23. It has been said that we can judge a society by the way it treats its elderly.

[janet118]

25. Then, America gets a big fail. n/t

[femrap]

30. Hi

Janet118...I recently read that China is considering passing laws that will require children to care for their aging parents. Many of the children have moved to the urban areas and left the parents 'on the farm' and poor.

The Japanese used to take care of their elderly, but I think they're having problems because their economy has been in such a long recession.

I just want to be treated like my cat, if need be. I don't want my last dollar going to Big 'Health.' I'd prefer it go to charities that care for animals.

Maybe Boomers should pool their money and buy up foreclosed McMansions which could be divided up into various living areas. Have people between the ages of 50 to whatever....and as people die off, another 50 year-old is allowed in. I went on a Home Tour once of these McMansions. I would have been totally satisfied to live in the basement. They're like Country Clubs....just ridiculous. Glad they have seen their Hay Days.

I still haven't forgotten about the discussion about a self-sustaining community. I did start a Facebook acct.

[Mike 03]

19. I really value your post. I don't think Kevorkian was ahead

of his time; I think he is with the time, and that you are all correct.

[Le Taz Hot]

24. If I'm ever diagnosed with a

terminal illness or long-term, debilitating illness, I already know what to do and how to do it. My family will know after the fact and yes, that WILL be MY decision.

[Ex Lurker]

29. I'm not saying I WILL do it, but it will be an option

Kevorkian is a nut and he creeps me out. But he provided a service that no one else would or could.

[Little Star]

26. The way things are going in this country there...

may be more than elderly or terminal people wanting to do a Kervorkian. It would certainly be preferable to starving or freezing to death. USA! USA! Ugh.

[theophilus]

27. Soylent Green is.......

Spoiler Alert.........



































People!

[xchrom]

28. We can't even protect abortion.

How will we ever protect Death with Dignity?