Unions DESTROYED the auto makers...

[DLine]

Why is this always the first thing I hear a conservative mention whenever the subject of unions comes up? They always have some anecdotal story like "even the janitor made $40 an hour".

[ananda]

1. That's bs.

It was crap products. All the American cars were lemons for a long time.

[FBaggins]

4. That's not true either.

The quality of american-made cars has been rising for quite some time now.

[elleng]

11. Yes but it took a while, and innovation took longer.

Big 3 management slept, for YEARS.

[Ikonoklast]

14. But in the late 70's, 80's and for most of the 90's they built shitboxes

all the while the rest of the auto manufacturers were focusing on production quality.

If the unions killed the domestic auto industry, it was the corporations own fault for forcing their employees to build shoddy products.


Domestic car companies biggest problem was on the top floor, when the bean counters took over the CEO spots instead of 'car guys' and engineers.

That's what killed GM, guys like Roger Smith.

[demosincebirth]

35. Thats it! The 70's to 85-86 they made some Lemons. Now, all I buy is American.

[HuckleB]

61. Quality has been rising, but in many areas, they're still behind.

Few American brands can be expected to last as long as your typical Honda or Toyota, and none can offer a vehicle of similar quality and price, with the mileage offered of a Hyundai. It takes a long time to catch up, when other brands are ahead and constantly improving.

[KeepItReal]

5. And the concept of Forced Obsolescence

Detroit (and folks like Hyundai) made cars that would fall apart just when you had paid it off or was out of warrantee.

[Synicus Maximus]

18. You're right my Hyundai started having troubles not long after the

warranty ran out. But was 10 years, so I don't feel that bad.

[HuckleB]

62. And Hyundai has now improved dramatically.

Plus, their vehicles actually get good mileage, at affordable prices, while GM and Ford make one pay through the roof to get good mileage.

[Arctic Dave]

2. It is part of their special bubble construct.

Kind of like raygun freed the hostages and killed communism.

[still_one]

3. The best movie on the subject is "Roger and Me". /nt

[alphafemale]

8. Look away when the woman with the cute bunny comes on though.

yeeeechsss!!

[still_one]

60. As difficult as that is, the woman was doing it for survival. I don't think things have gotten that

much better in Michigan since that movie was made

[gatorboy]

6. Good for that janitor.

I love the sheer jealousy of conservatives right now. They work shitty jobs but instead of concentrating their anger at the companies that pay them paltry sums, they'd rather whine about the people that have bettered their lives elsewhere.

[aquart]

17. Really good phrasing on that.

Use it again. Although I might put it "bettered their lives by standing together and helping each other."

[Cleita]

7. The auto makers are still around. They just

moved where they could get cheaper labor like Mexico and health care, like Canada. If we had universal health care, some of the auto makers would have stayed. We need to put tariffs on all autos and auto parts made out of the country so that it's cheaper to manufacture them here, even with unions.

[Drahthaardogs]

9. I always tell them,

No. The fact that the engineers in Detriot did not put out a competetive product between 1980 and 1990 is what destroyed the auto industries. Once they started making better vehicles, many of their problems went away.

[coalition_unwilling]

10. Um, actually it was management that destroyed the auto-makers. How?

By continuing to build and design vehicles that did not match consumer tastes. As far as I know, the UAW was never given any seats on any of the Big 3's Boards of Directors.

As to your question about why conservatives say it, it's that conservatives are anti-working class and therefore anti union. And pro-management. American upper-level management seldom if ever admits it has made any mistakes.

Edited for mouse run amok.

[Taitertots]

12. Free trade/Globalism destroyed the auto makers is the response

It is nothing but an excuse to undermine American labor to ensure huge profits for a tiny cabal. The wages of the Janitor don't matter because his competition will work for 1/10th what he will regardless how low we make our wages.

[Ian David]

13. I always hear, "I know this one guy who makes $30 an hour just tightening 1 screw all day long." nt

[Taitertots]

37. When I hear it, it is from someone who has never tried to install screws all day

Have them stand for 8 hours turning a ratchet and see if they think $30/hour is enough.

[Raschel]

42. Yep. People who never did that kind of work should try it. Then they'd see why

many autoworkers die not long after retirement.

[justiceischeap]

68. I find it amazing that people buy into the American dream, where we can make a good living

(I'm talking other "patriotic" Americans) and when some of us do make a good living that doesn't require sitting behind a desk, they bitch and complain that the Union is ripping off America and Americans.

[Romulox]

15. Foreign cars are WELL loved right here on DU. It's not just "conservatives" who are anti-labor. nt

[lonestarnot]

25. There is a point to be made for higher resale due to a long period of higher quality, longer lasting

product. That appears to be improving. CEO's didn't give a fuck apparently.

[Romulox]

31. Just like there's a point to be made for Charter Schools and cutting public pensions.

It's basically the same point. :hi:

[justiceischeap]

69. I LOVE my Nissan Xterra... because I could afford it and let's be honest

a huge problem with American-made cars is they just don't last as long as foreign cars seem to. I've had two Fords and I lost the transmission in both of them shortly after 100K miles. Yet I've had several VWs, a Volvo and now my Nissan plugging away at well over 130K miles. Since I purchase used cars, I've gotta go with what will last me the longest.

[sufrommich]

72. I've driven Fords all my life. I have never had transmission

problems with any of them.Hardly anyone in here in Michigan drives foreign cars and somehow we all manage to get around in our big 3 cars without half the problems I hear from foreign car drivers. Lots and lots of late model Big 3 cars all over the place.

[justiceischeap]

75. My Ford truck was a manual transmission and I lost the tranny

@ 105K miles (or thereabouts). When I went to a tranny shop to enquire about getting a rebuilt transmission the guy told me to junk the truck 'cause that model year was notorious for bad transmissions (which I didn't know when I bought it -- it was my first "new" car purchase though the truck was 2 yrs old when I bought it). In my used car buying experience, all of my foreign cars lasted longer than my domestic.

[Historic NY]

16. Yeah I hear that and Unions make things expensive............

my answer is if things are expensive then how come they are not cheaper when made in China. One would think w/o Union contracts & benefits etc to pay the company could offer them cheaper...but we pay the same price....its usualy shuts them up.

I just blew off at a 24yoa smart aleck thats wants to be a cop ...he said unions have broke this country....I then mentioned public service unions.,..collective bargaining. My final statement is perhaps you might want to have another career. He is so brainwashed by his puke family.

[SmileyRose]

19. I tell those conservative that

I feel kinda bad for them. If they had actually been smart instead of just educated they'd have joined a union so they could be a $40 an hour janitor.

[blogslut]

20. Janitors should make $40.00 an hour

Janitorial service is a hard, unpleasant job that needs doing. I'm pretty damned tired of the concept that manual labor is somehow worthless because one doesn't need a degree to to the task.

As for the whole anti-union thing - it's bullshit.

[shanti]

21. same as garbage collectors

and aren't they union too?

[Arkana]

24. I know my garbage guy makes WAAAAAAAY more than you'd think he does.

Guy's got a summer home on the Cape.

[sufrommich]

56. Then he's one of the few lucky ones left. Most cities and towns

contract out garbage collection and have for a long time.

[blogslut]

27. I don't know

I live in Texas. Unions are few and far between here.

Mind you, I'm not knocking higher education. Mostly I just have the simple belief that, in America, a person should be able to support themselves working 40 hours a week, no matter what their job is.

[smoochpooch]

30. +1 n/t

[white_wolf]

26. Hell, I know I hate doing it

so as far as I'm concerned whoever is willing to do it deserves good pay and benefits, because that is not fun work at all.

[Raschel]

22. I think what killed it was again, trying to compete with Asian labor costs and prices.

Companies kept cramming more and more work to the jobs on the line, foreman's and supervisors looked the other way to get vehicles out the door, companies were buying crap pieces from crap vendors, everybody including the auto companies and the unions believed the hype of the Asians doing everything better than us, and finally, union brothers and sisters started hating on each other trying to get the better jobs.

I'd say in ten years the difference on the floor was incredible.

[Arkana]

23. They didn't destroy the auto makers. Auto makers destroyed the auto makers.

[Throd]

28. Pieces of crap like my old '81 Fairmont are what hurt the industry

[socialist_n_TN]

29. I'll join the choir here and blame management..............

for the decline in American auto manufacturing. As another poster said, the UAW didn't have a single damn bit of input into managerial decisions that sank the American auto industry.

Now if the UAW ran the auto companies OR EVEN HAD REPRESENTATION ON THE BOARDS OF DIRECTORS, then they could share some of the blame. But that wasn't the case.

[Romulox]

32. LOL. This thread is revealing some cracks in our "Solidarity".

So..."solidarity" with everybody EXCEPT auto workers? :eyes:

[socialist_n_TN]

34. Not me. As another thread said, if you're unhappy.........

with what union brothers and sisters make, join or organize your own union.

Maybe the fucking CEOs and members of the Boards of Directors could take a serious pay cut and make American autos LESS expensive.

[white_wolf]

36. CEOs take a pay cut?

Are you mad!? This is America and here CEOs don't take pay cuts, here they get bonuses for totally fucking up while blaming it on Unions. Ahh America you disappoint anymore.

[socialist_n_TN]

39. Yeah, I know. I don't know WHAT I was thinking......

:)

[Romulox]

41. Google a DU thread called "Should I buy a Prius?" and get back to me...

:shrug:

[PBS Poll-435]

44. Should you buy a Prius? Well it is a quality and fun car. There are the other brands though

That produce a hybrid that gets the mileage a Prius gets.

I am sure of it!

[Romulox]

45. SOLIDARITY!!!!! (a la carte!)

:hi:

[PBS Poll-435]

46. Make a decision. Lower emissions, better mileage

Or, well, the alternative?

[Romulox]

48. Unemployment, slashed budgets, mass demonstrations...

You haven't thought this through.

[PBS Poll-435]

51. Just desperately trying to find your point. Desperately

[Romulox]

52. Start with reading the front page of Google News. Then, look up the history of the word "solidarity"

You're often so anxious to post, that you seemingly take no time to note the broader context of the discussion (e.g. look at the title of this thread for a clue as to the topic.) This is no exception.

Take some time, read, and try to synthesize the material first. Otherwise, you come off poorly. Again, this is no exception. :hi:

[sufrommich]

58. Or you could make the decision to support the American worker. nt

[PBS Poll-435]

65. But why should any person, especially in these "interesting" economic times

Be forced to buy an inferior product just to "prove" that they support worker's rights?



Especially something as big-ticket as an automobile...

[sufrommich]

66. Then why stop there?

Hey, maybe we should open up our education system to those who can provide a better product for less money. See how that works?

[PBS Poll-435]

67. But what if they can provide a better product.

What if test scores, graduation rates, crime, etc all improve?

What would be the problem with giving people a choice?

[sufrommich]

57. Yeah, nothing new here. nt

[Marnie]

33. German, Japan etc.destroyed American auto makers

It was the auto makers who chose to produce a "planned obsolescence" product.

Many imported cars were designed to last and came with safety and fuel consumption features that American makers resisted for decades.

[BOHICA12]

40. Failure to see a growing international market ...

and its excellent workforce by both the suits and the unions doomed them to failure. When democracies thrive, people begin to expect stuff and want stuff .... answer their wants and you win!

[joshcryer]

50. I'll never forget when Ford dropped their best selling car (the Tarus), rather than innovating:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-10-24-ford-taurus_x.htm

Tarus is still being made, mind you, because they realized it was a mistake to drop it, but Ford will never be the best selling sedan in the US unless they innovate their ass off.

I saw a good documentary about car manufacturing and it really tells the narrative. If you change the design for something it really throws a wrench into things, how fast production can move, because the workers have to relearn new assembly steps.

[socialist_n_TN]

64. And GM dropped the Saturn...........

after discontinuing the type of car that they were SUPPOSED to be building from the start. You know. A compact that could compete with the imports at an inexpensive price. A car for the masses to compete with Corollas, etc.

So what did management do? They discontinued the Ion line (their original "mission" type car) for an Aura a more upper scale and more expensive model. THAT was a management decision, NOT a UAW decision.

Now don't get me wrong. If they wanted to add TO the Saturn lines with a more upscale model(s), fine. But WHY discontinue the line that was closest to their original mission? I never did understand that. Myself and my family have owned 5 Saturns (S series and Ions) and have LOVED them. Yet THOSE lines were the ones discontinued. :banghead:

[MurrayDelph]

71. Both my Dad and my sister owned Ford Tauruses

(at the time, my Dad was friends with someone who owned a small dealership in Fresno).

When they first came out, Ford had spent a LOT of money to develop a new car worth owning (unlike the one I had owned fifteen years earlier). Once the car had a good reputation, they started cheaping the hell out of it, so when my sister bought one two years later, Ford had to buy it back under the Lemon Law.

[upi402]

38. Japan gave Reagan $1M speakers fee as payoff after he left office

$1M for the rape of the American auto industry. Pretty good deal.

[iamtechus]

43. Nope, wrong cause and effect analysis.

Wimp-assed foreign workers who won't fight for their rights destroyed the automakers.

[Unrepentant Fenian]

47. Unions MADE the auto makers... nt

[Romulox]

49. The mercenary attitudes of too many Americans destroyed the auto makers.

The idea that outsourcing will have "gone too far" when it it is *your* job on the line is a naive fantasy.

[sufrommich]

59. +1 nt.

[Enthusiast]

53. Because conservatives lie? nt

[Blue_Tires]

54. Tell that to the Germans...

They have stronger organized workforces than we could ever dream of...

[Enthusiast]

55. Even Nazi sympathizer Henry Ford recognized

that his assembly line workers needed a living wage.

[NashVegas]

63. It Wasn't a Union Laborer Who Put the Pinto On the Market

[LeftinOH]

70. Bad business decisions & inabiltiy to remain competitive killed the US auto industry;

the rot started from the top.

General Motors created the Saturn division specifically to be an import fighter..within a few short years, they neglected it to death -literally. In the meantime, GM produced a Cadillac pickup truck, a couple of Cadillac SUVs and brought in the Hummer division, which had a limited market, but had a very high profit margin. Unions had nothing to do with crappy decisions like these.

[DainBramaged]

73. Japan subsidizing their car makers here to allow them to get a foothold

If our government did that, the rest of the world would scream.

[blindpig]

74. Ask them if the major shareholders went broke. n/t