I predict that this will not be a popular post...

[Joe Fields]

Let me begin by stating emphatically that I have no love for our sick government, big corporations and I am pretty ambivalent toward unions. Does that cover all the bases?

Now, I must tell you, and I really don't know what else to say, except that you cannot blame the loss of over seven million jobs on management.

When NAFTA created the global economy, that was the beginning of the end. Bye bye really good paying jobs. Why in the world would a corporation want to pay American workers 20 dollars an hour to make the same product that some worker in a foreign country could make for 7 dollars an hour or less? To me, this is just common sense.

Our sick government, all the while has not lifted a finger to penalize corporations who outsource jobs by the assload.

And many of you here think that a few demonstrations, as well as chants of "solidarity" will magically win the day and create a new beginning or save organized labor?

The really sad news is that it is not going to happen. Not because I say so, but because many of you are looking at the issue in too passionate of state of mind. Look at this issue through the eyes of corporations and you will see the battle is already lost.

Organized labor is already a shadow of its former self, and it didn't take long for it to happen.

Am I jumping up and down with glee over this? Not even. But at least I see the reality of this developing situation.

Do all of you want to double down, in the hopes of saving a few hundred thousand jobs nationwide, which will most probably be for naught, or are you willing to admit that concessions are necessary, in order to save millions of jobs in jeopardy right now?

I know all about cutting your nose off to spite your face. I have done just that more than a few times in my life, but people, if you cannot see the handwriting on the wall, if you believe that you can put the lid back on Pandora's box, then you are in for a most rude awakening. This is the way of the world now, and we are poised to lose millions more jobs and become (I won't say insignificant, but not nearly as significant of a force socio-econonomically) if we don't swallow our pride and wake up to the facts of the global economic forces.

[AlabamaLibrul]

1. What FURTHER "concessions" do you suggest, besides driving ourselves to the slaughterhouses? n/t

[Joe Fields]

5. slaughterhouse? hyperbole much?

Do you think that teachers and government workers who are being asked to pay more into their pensions are actually being led into a slaughterhouse?

Fuck that. I don't make 50 grand a year. I don't make even half that, and I do not have a pension, to boot, so give me a fucking break with the slaughterhouse rhetoric.

The truth? The government is not on my side. Corporations are not on my side and neither are unions. So I do the best I can. You want to cry over people who have it much better than me? Go right fucking ahead, but I will tell you right now that you'll get no sympathy from me. I work harder than most people, and I have an education, as well. Times are tough all around and good jobs are scarce and getting scarcer.. It's definitely a new world that we live in, and whether we like it or not, we must adjust to it.

If you think we can ignore the Asian and South American markets, you are just fooling yourself.

[AlabamaLibrul]

6. They have already agreed to the pension issue, so that is irrelevant

I make MINIMUM WAGE, and I have the foresight to see that we don't need to destroy every union in this nation in the name of concessions.

[Luminous Animal]

11. They've agreed to pay more. Your screed is based on a pile of misinformed shit.

And so what if you don't make $50,000 a year? There are people who don't make $7,000 a year. Should we all strive for that because people in China make $600 a year?

Maybe we should all get into the Thunderdome and beat the crap out of each for a job. Or bring back slavery and employ children. Oh yes, that's the ticket.

[newtothegame]

42. Wow; is this how we engage in conversations on DU now?

:shrug:

[dionysus]

46. ah.. someones got a jealousy issue with unions...

:puke:

[socialist_n_TN]

58. It's not the monetary consessions that are........

an issue. Those have already been agreed to. It's the lack of collective bargaining that's the issue.

And I made less than half of $50k too and as an added bonus, my last day at work was this past Friday.

I'm giving myself the same advice that I'm giving others in my position. When I DO get another job, I'm joining the union, IF they have one in this "Right to Screw Workers" state. If they DON'T have a union (probable, as the jobs I've had in the last 30 years were small mom and pops or owner/operator "contract" work), I'll spend a few bucks and join the Wobblies as an independent organizer. If that's possible that is.

I'll do anything I can or have to, EXCEPT GIVE UP.

[Bandit]

67. You make more than you even know, because of Unions

You have "Worker's Compensation" because of Unions, you have "overtime pay" because of Unions, you have safe equipment, because of Unions. You have a job that otherwise could be held by some teen-ager, because of Unions and "child labor' laws...You are extremely short sighted IMO.

[dana_b]

81. thank you

he cannot see the forest through the trees. He doesn't have those things so why stick up for those who do? That attitude is what is dragging us all down.

[Luminous Animal]

2. Dear Joe, you are misinformed. The WI unions have agreed to concessions. They are fighting for the

right to collective bargain.

Sorry you wasted so much time writing your ignorant post.

[Joe Fields]

7. Sorry I skipped right past that. I am not misinformed or ignorant.

It is a foregone conclusion to me that collective bargaining will go by the wayside.

If you can't see that, and if you don't see that unions are basically dead in the economic reality we live in, then keep on keeping on, and see just how far that will get you.

And, btw, I have been in unions a good portion of my career.

[AlabamaLibrul]

8. Self-hating unionist? n/t

[Joe Fields]

16. Self hating? Roflmao.. That's a stretch. And it is a weak comeback...

with no fucking argument. Really? Are you saying you have no intellect to debate me? All you can do is sling poo? lol

[Luminous Animal]

21. What's to debate. You've waived the white flag. You've surrendered. Your pants are around your

ankles and you've pissed on your shoes.

[Joe Fields]

26. You think you can fight the entire world?

Ridicule me all you want. But reality is here, whether you want to admit it or not.

[Luminous Animal]

27. Yes. With my sisters and brothers around the world. I keep my eyes on the prize rather than live

on my knees in the mud.

[Luminous Animal]

13. Yes. We should all lean back and enjoy the rape of our corporate overlords.

[Joe Fields]

24. Neither you or the many here who attack the reality will convince me,

until you are all willing to lay your own jobs on the line and participate national strikes, where workers from across the country, in many different professions are willing to jeopardize their jobs, for the sake of preserving what we have fought for over this last century.

If you think I am for lower wages, then you are dumber than a rock. To me, this is just a lot of noise which will amount to nothing in the end, because too few are willing to give up what little comfort zone they have left.

It's fine for 70 thousand people to stand by the capitol in Madison and protest. but just how many of them are willing to risk their livlihood over the issue of collective bargaining?

Make no fucking mistake. This is nothing like the labor movements of the 20's and 30's where workers actually risked their lives over a just cause.

It's really easy for you to spout off, just like me, in an internet chat room. Just a personal question. How far would you be willing to take this issue? Would you give up your job over it? Would you give up your life?

[Luminous Animal]

28. I've put both my life and liberty on the line. I've been jailed for my activism.

I've been assaulted and been pretty fucking scared that I wasn't going to make it out alive. Have you?

And there has been nothing like the 20s and 30s? What do you think happened during the 60s? Nobody risked their lives? Tell that to all the dead people.

[Thunderstruck]

70. Oops! wrong place.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[du_da]

76. The problem with unions

is that they suffer from the same dilemma as the EPA they are victims of their own success. They were initially very important and very effective and everyone realized what these groups brought to the table. Then as time went on they brought less and less to the table that the world could witness to continue justifying their existence. This wouldn't have been so bad had they adapted with the times, but they were unable or unwilling to do sticking with the same old formats trying to fight the same old fights.

So what you ended up with today is a group that is generally viewed in a negative light within the workplace by management and workers. Each group sees unions as an obstacle more than a partner, a necessary evil if you will. Keep in mind I am talking about non-union and union workers. The question must be asked why workers don't want to join the union. Heres the reality of it. The 40 hour work week, sick leave, and palatable working conditions exist in union and non-union environments. The competition for quality labor that exists because of the mobility of the workforce and the availability of information has assured workers the same work environment that unions worked so hard to build back in the day.

So again why join a union. Well the way they run today that is a hard question to answer. However, given a refocus back to improving the situation for the workers as a partner in the process the unions could save themselves. Let me give you an example. Everyone knows about pensions right, has it ever dawned on you that the pension system is arguably the worst financial system designed for retirement management short of literal sticking money under the mattress and sometimes that would be even better. So then how did we end up with this, well back in the day it was the only financial instrument available for workers to save for retirement. Now we have 401k and IRAs not to mention a dozen other three character named programs that are available for use. This begs the question, with pensions being so poor a design both for the worker and for the company why aren't unions negotiating for 401k with contractually negotiated matching and a wide assortment of investment options like including stock and cash positions to the traditional mix for the people who aren't comfortable playing the market. These would be retirement funds that were guaranteed because they have to be pre-funded and don't belong to the company, union, or government. They belong specifically to the individual. Do this for young workers and in a few decades we work the pension system right out of the way. Now that is just one example of one issue, and I am sure some smart union member might be able to come up with some even better financial instruments to allow for retirement security.

End result, unions have to adapt to the changing times and realize that they don't get credit for what they haven't done lately.

[sabrina 1]

80. They are only dead if we give up. Caving to Corporations is not an

option. Do you want this country to end up like Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Bahrain, Algeria? Because we are not all that far from there, and for many, many millions of Americans who lost their jobs and homes, they are already there?

When exactly do we stand and fight the Corrupt Corporate takeover of this government? Do we wait until, in a few years, we have to go out and get killed (and if you don't think that could happen, take a look at the labor history of this country) to return to some kind of democracy?

Sad to see such willingness to capitulate, it is the reason so many have lost so much already. We are way past the time to take action against those who have robbed this country blind. To ask people to wait any longer is sad.

[PDJane]

3. I fully see all of those things.

But giing up the right to collective bargaining will mean that all of the concessions will be for naught, because you'll have to start the whole process of rebuilding the rights that collective bargaining gave us all from the ground up. Why do that?

[Joe Fields]

10. believe me, I understand where you are coming from, but...

do you really think it will matter in this global economy?

Now, possibly in the matter of government workers. But, I can see state and even federal government outsourcing to save money and jobs here be damned.

[Dappleganger]

4. I will never give up.

My family deserves better than that.

[Hello_Kitty]

9. Unreccing this Race To The Bottom bullshit.

[Joe Fields]

12. That's fine. I don't expect any recs.

[SammyWinstonJack]

66. +100000!

:thumbsup:

[leftstreet]

79. +1

[dana_b]

82. me too

I am not in a union but I'll be damned if i want to see them brought to their knees. How quickly we forget our own history.

[RandomThoughts]

14. That is there line.

I not going to accept what is wrong, because it helps a few people, or because someone posts what they want you to think.

Do you realize 'this is the way it is' is the worst argument. It is a demand to submit without argument.

It is not the way it is in my life, therefore it does not have to be the way it is in someone elses life.

I am not tapping out, why, because I not the person in trouble. They can't even break a pool playing grocery clerk, they are in real trouble. There are millions, maybe billions not broken, I know that, I spoke to thousands of them in hundreds of bars over the years.


Although I am due beer and travel money and many experiences.

[iamtechus]

15. Tell me, Joe, how many times in your miserable life did you refuse to sign a union card?

Thereby helping to deprive your coworkers of a living wage.

[Joe Fields]

19. Do you have reading comprehension problems?

[Bluenorthwest]

36. What do you do for a living? What Union are you a memer of?

And Joe, understand that you make what my Union eyes see as a pittance, and you say you have no pension benefits, so I do not see what you are so smug about. You seem to have a shitty deal. You should strive to raise yourself to say, my level, not to lower yourself ever deeper into servility and fear.
What is your career? What Union do you vote in? Any? Are you a janitor or what?

[sufrommich]

45. You know, I don't know if your in a union or not,but I've

spent my whole working life in one.I can't even imagine what help you think you're doing by talking to other working people like like.
"Are you a janitor or what?" Talk about smug.

[Bluenorthwest]

49. Uh, I've marched with the Janitors, helped them organize

The OP says he makes low pay, and is in a Union. This would suggest a service Union, particularly as he says he has no pension, although he is not a beginning worker.
I do not think the OP is one of my brothers, nor a brother to the Janitors or the Dishwashers or Housekeepers. I think the OP is doing harm to them.
The OP claims to have been in Unions, but does not state what they do for a living, does state in the thread that he makes less than 25K. This is not easy to do in a Union.
Being a janitor is a perfectly respectable job, my friend. Why do you see asking a person if they are one as an insult? Seems you look down on them fairly intently.
Personally, I'm just poking this anti-Union OP, who is clearly not standing with the service employees who are Union.
To me, a gig is a gig, and they should all be Unionized and have pensions. The OP says that the organizing done by the various service employee's Unions the last few years has been a waste of time. Now that, my friend, is smug. Smug as shit.
Union member since age 20. Sorry if you don't get it. I've marched with them. I live with one. How about you and the OP?

[sufrommich]

50. I spent 33 years working as a union custodian. There are plenty

of people in unions who make under $25,000 a year,lots of people in SEIU do.
I don't think he's saying that that organizing is a waste of time,it looks to me that he's saying it's too little,too late and with union membership at under 12%,he may have a point.

Are you aware that union custodians,bus drivers and maintenance worker jobs are being privatized all over this country and have been for the last decade?Heard of any massive protests about this ? No ,you haven't.How about comparing the number of UAW jobs that have disappeared in the last 30 years? I find this newfound concern for union jobs interesting,apparently it's got to hit a certain class of people before it's really worth the outrage.

[socialist_n_TN]

65. He's saying "Give up." That means he IS saying that..........

organizing is a waste of time. If it's too little, too late that's the DEFINITION of a waste of time.

I don't do "Give up." And yes, I AM willing to be arrested and even to die for my beliefs. I'm almost 60, so most of my life is over anyway. If I die FOR something, it'll be worth it.

[sufrommich]

69. And I'm saying that maybe if people wouldn't have waited until

union representation was down to 12% of the workforce and mostly government jobs we wouldn't be having this problem. Do you have any idea how many union jobs have been lost in the last 30 years? Where have you people been??

[socialist_n_TN]

74. I know what you're referencing and I agree.........

that something should have been done long ago about declining union membership. But it wasn't, so we have to start with where we are. Hopefully, this is a spark. Sometimes you don't appreciate what you have until you see that you're losing it. Maybe that's the case with collective bargaining.

But as I said in my post, I don't do "Give up." IF we have to start over from scratch, so be it.

[sufrommich]

51. By the way, I don't know any custodians who call themselves

"janitors".

[hfojvt]

91. "Hello, my name is John Merrick, I am very pleased to meet you"

I refer to myself as a janitor all the time, although my name is not really John Merrick, I just like that line from "The Elephant Man."

[housewolf]

17. No only "has not lifted a finger to penalize corporations who outsource jobs", it actually gives tax

incentives for corps to do so

I see self-destruction happening everywhere I look these days, not only in our own country but around the world

[Joe Fields]

20. Yes. I am not at all happy with what is going on...

I'm wanting to see a little more protection, but it isn't happening, and I sure do not see it happening.

[Sherman A1]

22. If not now, when?

Even if as you say the battle is lost and I do believe this should have been fought long ago, then let us not go quietly into the night.

I would rather go down kicking & screaming (and I have been in various means through the years) than to have said to simply accept this fate that you describe.

Certainly there have been and are many reasons to despair, but for now there is a reason for hope.

I will take that hope.

What do you offer?

[democracy1st]

23. we're not corporations so we shouldn't look at the problem thru their eyes!

[Electric Monk]

25. at this point, what difference does it make?

I can flag whatever, but it is just flags.

Some signal for people looking for signals with the proper decoding ring.

Czeck check

[pipoman]

29. Our own party has secured the last stake in the heart

of the collective bargaining ability of labor. I expected it of the thugs, the traditional "labor party" is dead. Labor doesn't have a party. It is time for service and public workers unions to organize and strike demanding withdrawal from trade agreements which encourage manufacturing to move to unregulated 3rd world labor and make imposition of fines and import tariffs for manufacturers which exploit cheap labor and low environmental standards. Without the tax revenue from those workers, the public and service workers will (and have) fail.

What other issue which has support or opposition of 50%+ of the population which one party or the other doesn't represent? We now have both parties pounding the drum of "free trade" and neither party on the side of labor. If the thugs or a third party took this position I would likely vote for them.

Dems should be ashamed that our party is responsible for the union busting it has supported.

[TBF]

30. And it happened under a democrat no less.

But I don't think we lay down and die, Joe. One by one the workers of countries are now rising up and throwing off the chains. We're not to Utopia yet, but I think Marx would be proud with where we're headed. Gotta be looking at the long view...

[Le Taz Hot]

31. "And many of you here think that a few demonstrations

as well as chants of "solidarity" will magically win the day and create a new beginning or save organized labor?"

I'll let Kamal Abbas, a Union Organizer in Egypt, answer you:

"No one believed that our revolution could succeed against the strongest dictatorship in the region. But in 18 days the revolution achieved the victory of the people. When the working class of Egypt joined the revolution on 9 and 10 February, the dictatorship was doomed and the victory of the people became inevitable."

But good luck in keepin' that powder dry.

Edit to add link: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/must-read/statement-kamal-abbas

[lunatica]

32. Bernie Sanders would disagree with you

The Founding Fathers would too. It's a historic fact that people can get together and create change. Maybe unions won't win, or maybe they will, but surely not if they don't try.

[Peter_x]

33. Outsource our top jobs

Import 200,000 Cuban doctors to drive the price of healthcare down. Then outsource ALL of our top-heavy jobs,including the presidency and CEO'S to India and China. They can do the job cheaper.Leading the local tea party charge here are local millionare doctors.They can be easily replaced with outsourcing. Sarcasm? No. This is what the elite did with American workers.

[GoCubsGo]

41. Doctors are not what is driving up the cost of our health care.

It is the insurance companies. Here are the profits for the top 7 insurers for 2009:

1. UnitedHealth Group – $87 billion
2. WellPoint – $65 billion
3. Aetna – $34.7 billion
4. Humana – $30.9 billion
5. Cigna – $18.4 billion
6. Health Net – $15.7 billion
7. Coventry Health Care – $13.9 billion

Here are three of the CEO's incomes for that year:

Stephen Hemsley – UnitedHealth Group
Total 2009 Compensation: $8,901,916

Michael McCallister – Humana
Total 2009 Compensation: $6,509,452

Jay Gellert – Health Net
Total 2009 Compensation: $3,643,342

http://tucsoncitizen.com/medicare/2010/05/11/why-is-health-insurance-so-expensive/
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2010/industries/223/index.html

Flooding the market with cheaper doctors isn't going to change that. Nor will it drive down drug prices. Our drugs are ten times higher than in Canada and the rest of the world FOR THE SAME GODDAMN DRUGS. And, we pay much higher rates in fees, thanks to the fact that our hospitals are mostly corporate-run. You can bring in all the Cuban doctors you want, but it's not going to make an iota of difference on the bottom line.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/11/an_insurance_industry_ceo_expl.html

[Peter_x]

44. Boycott

Thank you for the input and information. Why are all these millionaire doctors protesting for the tea party, demanding tax cuts and railing on SS and medicaid? They are slitting their own throats on that one.We could, as customers, simply decide to opt out of the medical care industry and boycott them and their insurance masters. Don't break your family and make them rich at the expense of your family. Dying quietly is cheaper and more noble.If I get cancer why should that finance a third or fourth vacation home on the coast? Boycott them, use home remedies instead.

[sufrommich]

48. Protest health care costs by dying quietly? Great strategy.

:eyes:

[hfojvt]

93. okay, look at the first one - they happen to be my insurance company

it costs $650.49 a month for a single person, $1188.28 for a couple and $1293.44 for a family.

How many customers does United have? http://www.unitedhealthgroup.com/main/AboutUs.aspx

At one point they say 75 million worldwide. For the US they say at least 25 million for health insurance, 9 million for medicare and 3 million for medicaid. At least 37 million.

Their profit is only between $1,200 and $2,350 per customer per year. Even a single customer is paying $7,800 per year. (At least where I work. Single people working for the County and the Water Department pay at least $200 a month less, but that may be a different insurance company.) Families are paying $15,500 per year. Profits are between 30% and 15% of costs, at most. Or between 15% and 8% if you accept the 75 million figure for customers.

As for salaries. Take the top 100 executives and assume they make an average of $3,000,000 per year. That's a total cost of $300 million. Less than $8 per customer per year.

30% is too damn high, but it is less than half of 70%

[MilesColtrane]

34. So, your strategy is, let the wolves have a couple of us on the edge of the flock.

They probably won't eat me.





Fuck that.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. Other than the Conservatives Guild, what Union are you in?

Because I recommend you go vote your own life away, and I remind you that you can not vote in my Union. So fuck off. Tis that simple. Not your business.
I do not see your owners out there 70,000 strong.
Self consumed jerks who wish to lecture on 'how the world is' are just self consumed jerks. Out for themselves.
Probably not a Union member of any kind. The hack writers are usually scabs.

[Bluenorthwest]

37. Senator Sanders would strongly disagree with your defeatist

and pro-corporatist bullshite. I looked at your profile, and of course, no home State listed, so profession listed. I assume you are a hired Union buster. Posting rhetoric the leadership taught you to parrot.
It is amazing to read in this thread that you make a pittance, have no benefits, and that is how you want everyone to be. Because you can do no better, you want no one else to?
What do you do for a near living? With no benefits? Clearly you are not Union.

[NNN0LHI]

38. There was no NAFTA when I was continually laid off from an auto plant during the 1980's

And my neighbors were all out buying imported and scab built cars.

Think you may be confused?

Don

[sufrommich]

47. It's funny how many people are suddenly waking up to the

price we pay for the disappearance of unions. You would think this all started with the teachers of Wisconsin.

[NNN0LHI]

52. It is either short memories or dishonesty involved here

Not sure which? But these lame attempts at rewriting history to fit someones agenda make me sick.

Don

[sad sally]

84. Here's some interesting history of how unions were treated

in this neck of the country back in the early part of the 20th century. It's still a very red county, even though unemployment is high and wages are low, and that huge freeway sign still stands - shouting out its contempt of all things not of the republican party.

http://greenfield.fortunecity.com/crawdad/213/centralia.html?du

[Codeine]

63. And many - if not MOST - of the folks now crying

have been loyal Honda customers since the 80s. As long as it only hurt folks with grease under their nails they didn't give a rat's ass.

[sufrommich]

71. Exactly. Thank you. nt

[stillwaiting]

39. You need to change your avatar. It's insulting to him. nt

[Drahthaardogs]

40. You had better hope that you are wrong

Because if public sector jobs suddenly become low paying, no benefit jobs, there is no hope for ANYTHING or ANYONE.

[KurtNYC]

43. NAFTA did not create a global economy

I'm glad that you want to talk about reality, common sense, things that won't magically win the day, handwriting on the wall, Pandora's box, and rude awakenings. NAFTA gave Canada and Mexico better access to the US market so that when companies took American jobs to those 2 countries they could easily ship the finished goods into the US to be sold. Tried shipping US-made products into Canada lately? NAFTA was hardly the first of, or even the first response to a more global economy.

In the 1820s the Industrial Revolution begins. Machines become the key part of producing goods cheaply -- MACHINES (not cheap labor). Productivity per worker goes way up. The amount you can pay each worker goes way up. And here we are 190 years later.

What country is the world's 2nd largest exporter? From your argument one might think it would have to be a country with the low wages that you believe corporations crave. Therefore probably a country with no unions, no organized labor, few vacations, long hours for low pay.... WRONG! So why is this mystery country number 2? Productivity -- they invested in education and health care and they are reaping the rewards of that.

[blindpig]

53. So, we just let the Capitalists ride roughshod over us?

The 'reality' which you cite is that of Capitalism, it is not the only way we might organize an economy. We can make our own reality.

[maryf]

56. Time to start is now.

SOLIDARITY BROTHER!!! and keep sayin' what you're sayin'!

[myrna minx]

54. Give up and never try. Gotcha. How "pragmatic".

[maryf]

55. It is time for people to stop waiting, stop lying down, stop woe is us...

If its just me in the streets so be it, but I'll not just accept this. I am cold as ice so please don't tell me to chill as another has done lately.

Class war is on, so lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[coalition_unwilling]

57. Whose side are you on? The workers' or the elite's? Let's start

with that and then move on to a discussion. Or perhaps you don't see society organized along those lines?

[harun]

59. You can't be neutral on a moving train.

[WilliamPitt]

60. Comprehensive

Fail.

[bemildred]

61. We are not helpless victims of fate here, none of this is necessary or required. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

62. Workers won't matter until and unless TPTB are scared of them.

It's been far too long since this dog bit anyone to be plausibly considered intimidating.

[Danger Mouse]

64. Nothing good ever came out of giving up.

[walldude]

68. A man is hanging by his fingertips on the edge of a cliff...

Do you step on his hand and watch him fall or do you reach out and pull him up?

[Thunderstruck]

72. So basically you're saying we should just give up and take whatever

the corps see fit to give us?

Well, that's one way to bring manufacturing back to the U.S. And we can live in corrugated metal shanty's with muddy sewage-soaked paths leading to the lead-belching factories.

Sounds like fun.

NOT!


12-year union member here with a total compensation package worth $36/hr - in TEXAS.

[du_da]

73. The problem with us

is that in our anti-market zeal we are trying to fix market problems with non-market solutions. You want to effect how companies do business. You convince your friends and their friends and so on and so forth not to support that company and let the company know why. They are in the business of doing business. They don't care who their customers are, they do however care when they don't have any.

We are losing the battle because we are fighting a war with entirely the wrong types of weapons. If we attempt to force them to do something then we are the bad guys. Sorry, but that is the society we live in.

This is a war of ideals and quite frankly we are doing a piss poor job of spreading ours. Our communication methods make it difficult for anyone to want to listen to us more or less agree with us because so many of us start the process by insulting someone thus turning someone we don't want others to support into a victim.

We are starting from a degraded position so we have to do it smarter and cleaner than the other guy or we loose (once again spelled that way for the net nannies), and all the complaining in the world about our starting point isn't going to improve the situation.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ljm2002]

77. Ultimately the question is this:

Do we accede to the desires of capitalists that workers everywhere subsist on the lowest wages possible, shut up and be glad they have a job at all? Or do we insist that workers everywhere be treated fairly, have safe working conditions and living wages?

In other words: your statements are not wrong, in fact they do reflect what is happening right now. But we cannot look at what is, and say that is all that can be. Rather we must work towards a better world, and instead of just throwing up our hands and saying "so be it, nothing we can do", we need to FIGHT BACK and let the bastards know who the real bosses are.

Yes, I know there are perils. But the perils of our present course are evident right now, with young workers committing suicide in plants in China because of the horrible conditions; with subsistence (or less) wages being paid; with countries and states trying to outdo one another to "attract capital" because they see it as a road to prosperity when in reality it is a road to exploitation.

I know it is trite and old-fashioned, but I'll say it anyway: Workers of the World, Unite!

[Ikonoklast]

78. Germany can do it.

So can we, just as soon as the Oligarchs are restrained.


This is just the start.


But you keep wallowing in self-pity and negativity; I see it's worked oh! so well for you up to now.


And based on your posting history, I ain't buyin' what you're sellin'.

[ItNerd4life]

83. You are asking people to think outside the box,

but most people are not capable of it.

I agree that NAFTA is here to stay. But there are other ways to improve things here in this country.
1) Create a law that gives tax breaks for keeping a certain percentage of employees in the U.S.
2) Tie U.S. employee pay to executive pay so all people get equal raises, benefits, etc. Executives are encouraged to increase employee pay.

The government right now encourages companies to leave, they need to encourage companies to stay.

[WinkyDink]

87. But YOU ARE "capable of it," do I have that right?

[LanternWaste]

90. "NAFTA is here to stay" is thinking outside the box?

"NAFTA is here to stay" is thinking outside the box?

[Joe Fields]

94. Your comment is most appreciated.

I knew that when I wrote this post I would become a villain, of sorts among this community. I am only stating the obvious, which most here seem not to understand.

We have allowed this to happen to us. It is in this government's best interest to stave off the outsourcing of jobs by corporations. It is in this country's best interest to protect our middle class. The leaders of this country either don't get it or don't care, because they have been paid to think otherwise. How shortsighted!

The time to fight with all of our might, is when we first see our rights begin to erode.

[Tatiana]

85. Looks like you're a proponent of the "race to the bottom" philosophy.

Yeah, you're right. I don't think this was a popular post.

Your way of thinking is an insult to the man in your avatar. Sen. Sanders would most certainly vehemently disagree with you.

[WinkyDink]

86. Wow. You've been broken. Doesn't mean the rest of us have to bow down.

[Romulox]

88. Hey--I put the "Solidarity!" bumper sticker on my Toyota!

What more do you want from me? :silly:

[white_wolf]

89. Isn't this the Right wing stance

if we all just accept third world wages the jobs will come back?

[Lucian]

92. Not only is it unpopular, it's idiotic.

[PufPuf23]

95. Don't mistake the general population with those of us that are of an age and situation

where the future is bleak.

Humanity is an ecosystem as are human economic models and human existence; all specific dynamic systems have cycles and will end, but existence will continue.

There is the decadence that occurs before renewal in dynamic systems; religious and financial and military and political and social systems can all be decadent; I am not speaking of morality because in an ecosystem diversity is the strength to respond to outside or self-inflicted bottlenecks.

Random thoughts indeed.

[DinahMoeHum]

96. -1

:thumbsdown: