Could you all help me debunk a right wing myth

[white_wolf]

Me and my friend were talking about Unions today and he brought the right wing meme that Unions promote laziness because union workers know they will never get fired because the Union will protect them. I've heard that argument before and I would like some help debunking it.

[leftstreet]

1. What statements have you made to debunk that in the past? n/t

[white_wolf]

Well he said his girlfriends dad told him union members are

lazy and I just said that you can't judge a whole population based on the experience with a few people.

[leftstreet]

7. Tell him YOUR girlfriend's dad says it's not true n/t

[Courtesy Flush]

9. LOL +10 n/t

[Drale]

2. Any Union worth its wait will not tolerate laziness

because it hurts their image even more then the right wing hate.

[Electric Monk]

18. You mean weight? Spell check isn't always your friend. nt

[meegbear]

3. Myth #3: Union members can’t be fired.

As good as union workers generally are, there are occasions where they, like anyone else, deserve to be fired. And, despite the myth, union members do get fired. Indeed, union members in this country get fired every day, for every manner of violation, from insubordination to poor work performance to insurance fraud to chronic absenteeism (the most common offense).

No contract in the world is going to include language that forbids management from firing a substandard employee. Again, all one needs to do is consider the premise. What management representative would ever sign a contract that contained “immunity” language of that sort? And what union rep, no matter how bold or arrogant, would dare suggest that such restrictive language be written into it? In truth, no one wants to work with deadbeats . . . not even other deadbeats.

Is it harder to fire a union worker than a non-union worker? Yes. Thank god, yes. Having a modicum of job security is one of the virtues of being a union member. Where a boss in a non-union shop might be able to fire an employee because, say, he didn’t like his “Nader for President” bumper sticker, or because he wanted to give the job to his wife’s nephew, he couldn’t do that in a union shop, because in a facility governed by a union contract you need actual grounds to get rid of someone.

Again, it’s school teachers who are frequently scapegoated here. Administrators complain that it’s inordinately hard to fire an incompetent teacher, even though, per the provisions of the union contract, the school has two full years from a teacher’s date of hire to fire him or her for any reason they like, without having to defend that decision. Two years. Compare that window of opportunity to the standard 60 or 90 day probationary periods found in most businesses.

<snip>

http://www.utubo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=60

[white_wolf]

6. Thank you so much for the link.

That's what I was looking for. I'll bookmark it for reference. Honestly I've noticed that republicans love to find one example of a single person exploiting a good system and then say we should gut it for everyone.

[City of Mills]

8. They do the same with welfare

If one person scams the system, then shut it down for everyone!

Republicans love outliers...

[gratuitous]

4. Don't do his homework for him

What's his rationale for his statement? Does he have studies to back him up, or is he just engaging in the same sort of union-bashing that I've heard for more than 30 years, and that the owners freely encourage because it serves their purpose of paying as little as possible for the labor that creates the wealth that they skim?

[Beaverhausen]

5. Ask your friend to prove that no union members are ever fired

[rucky]

10. Here's a link - with citiations to debunk:

http://www.aflcio.org/joinaunion/why/uniondifference/uniondiff8.cfm#_ftn2

Try to link back to the source material when you share this. If he sees it's from the AFL-CIO he'll just immediately discard it.

[Daninmo]

11. false

Myself and about 300 of my brothers and sisters in our union have been laid off. Economy sucks and there is little work. My be technically different then fired though, however we can be fired too.

[NMDemDist2]

12. being a factory rat is no picnic

http://www.escapingdetroit.com/2010/07/a-word-about-the-lazy-american-union-auto-worker/

[Blue_Tires]

19. thanks for that link

good stuff

[alfredo]

13. Our union comes down hard on goldbricks. Not only are they

making it hard on other workers, they reflect badly on the union. Keep it up, and if you are called before HR, we will make sure you are treated fairly and within the laws, but we wouldn't work as vigorously as we would for a hard worker. Goldbricks, if unwilling to mend their ways could be blackballed, kicked out of the union. Unions will step in and help non union workers if it appears they are being unfairly or unlawfully treated. The non union worker has to give their OK for representation.

There was always pressure by the union urging us to carry our own weight. There is pressure to keep quality up. In that respect, unions are helpful.

Because of cuts to OSHA enforcement (Reagan years), we never had an inspection. It was a union steward that found an asbestos problem, not just hot water pipe insulation, but from the tiles on the floor. He brought it to the supervisors attention and showed them how to remedy the problem The floor tile just needed to be sealed, the pipes needed to have the asbestos removed and replaced. He gave them six months to respond. When they didn't he called OSHA. The supervisors tried to get him fired for that, but with help of the union he kept his job and the asbestos problems were fixed in short order.

[upi402]

14. False. That's straight from propaganda.

Has your friend ever been in a union shop? I used to think that too, until I was finally let into the union and saw how professional they were. Much more productive than the non-union.

In my union, and it's a strong one with full referral hiring hall, employers can lay you off - or fire you for cause if caught screwing off after getting warned. I did see laziness on the non-union side as an expression of hate for the boss. If they had the chance, they would screw him.

Upside-down from my experience.

[quiller4]

15. Union members can be and are fired every day.

Most collective bargaining agreements spell out how discipline is to be administered for workplace offenses. A common example would be:

First Offense verbal warning
Second offense written warning
Third offense suspension without pay for defined period
Fourth Offense termination

The above is for minor infractions like punching in a few minutes late. Most bargaining agreements also mention by definition or list a number of serious infractions that will result in immediate termination.

My spouse was a union business rep for 13 years. I would say he averaged a call a month from a terminated employee he represented. He would talk to that employee to see if the employee wanted to protest the termination using the grievance procedure outlined in the agreement. Roughly one-third of the terminated employees chose to grieve their terminations and about half of that number won re-instatement through the grievance and arbitration process.

Anybody who works as a manager in an organized workplace is trained on how to document employee infractions. Some managers are lazy and rather than do the work required, say "you can't fire a union worker". That isn't true but following the correct procedure requires effort poor managers refuse to exert. Good managers know how to discipline promptly and fairly. They maintain a line of communication with the union representative and often pick up the phone to give a heads up that "I'm going to terminate Jeff this afternoon. I'm calling him into my office at 2 and I'd like you to be there." My spouse often got calls like that from the management of one of the scrapyards he represented where most terminations resulted from employees operating heavy equipment in an unsafe manner that put co-workers at risk of death or serious injury.

[zipplewrath]

16. As others have said, it is demonstrably false

Union people get fired all the time. It is "harder" to fire a union person, because you actually have to "make a case" so to speak. That usually involves documenting absenteeism, insubordination, or other similar act, which can be hard if you are not prepared to document these things. It is why the "time clock" is a VERY important feature of most hourly labor. It becomes THE defining document of time worked.

When I was first in a union, I read my whole contract. I was probably the only one who did, besides the shop steward. And I was struck by all the things I could be fired for, but one that was NOT listed, was incompetance. And this is where this myth gets started.

I talked with my shop steward. He acknowledged that there was no mechanism for firing someone for incompetence. When you first get hired, the company had basically 90 days to decide if you were competent. In that 90 days they could fire you VERY easily, and technically you weren't in the union yet. But once they decided that you were competent, you were so for life. So a foreman who hires in and finds a bunch of workers on the job that he doesn't like, finds out he can't fire them just because he finds them incompetent, and declares that "you can't fire a union worker". Not exactly true. You can't fire them for not being the best guy on the floor. You can't fire them for one mistake once in a while. You can't fire them because they are obnoxious democrats. If they are violating the work rules, you can document it, the union gets a chance to "retrain" you, and on you go. If you never "clean up your act" you can be fired.

And there are "zero tolerance" infractions, mostly having to do with safety. Try killing your foreman and you'll be out real quick.

[sinkingfeeling]

17. Yeah, we all often see those lazy, good-for-nothing fire fighters sitting around, watching buildings

burn. Geez!

[Spike89]

20. Debunking is too easy

Anyone who knows anything about labor, employment law, and unions knows that "never get fired" is absurd--I guess there were never any autoworkers, steelworkers, teamsters, or school teachers fired or laid off?
Although unions are populated with humans and therefore have all the foibles any group has, the concept of collective bargaining is bulletproof and makes sense to anyone who looks at management/labor relations with anything close to a fair view. Management must keep costs low enough to maintain profitability--there is no bottom to this, if they can use slave labor then they will because it maintains/increases profit.
Labor, on the other hand, obviously wants as much value as it can wrest from management. There is obviously a definite ceiling there--if labor forces costs above profitability, the product fails and they lose their jobs. Of course, there are lots of variables and unions also understand the value of negotiating lower wages for job security.
In a nutshell, management can succeed without treating labor fairly, but labor must ensure that management succeeds.

Anyone that makes blanket statements that unions aren't need, are counter-productive, or are anything but fair isn't using their heads or are actively attempting to take money out of your pocket.

[Name removed]

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