Why Are Men So Angry?

[Rage for Order]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/12649_whyaremenangrymanningupauthorkayhymowitzexplains

Men in their twenties and thirties are fed up with women, but author Kay Hymowitz says you can’t blame them when women are demanding equality except when it comes to romance.

About a week ago, The Wall Street Journal published an excerpt of my new book, which argued that the new stage I call pre-adulthood—the twenties and early thirties—was not bringing out the best in single young men. Some men didn’t like it. As in, “cancel-my-subscription-the-writer-should-contract-such-a-bad-case-of-carpel-tunnel-syndrome-she-never-writes-again” didn’t like it.

But a lot of the responses unwittingly proved my point—and another one: Men are really, really angry. Consider: “We’re not STUCK in pre-adulthood, we choose it because there aren’t any desirable American women. They’ve been bred to abuse men.” This fairly typical response that appeared at the Seattle Post Intelligencer website: “Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you."

Shocked? I wasn t. During the last few years researching this age group, I’ve stumbled onto a powerful underground current of male bitterness that has nothing to do with outsourcing, the Mancession, or any of the other issues we usually associate with contemporary male discontent. No, this is bitterness from guys who find the young women they might have hoped to hang out with entitled, dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling—and did I mention gold-digging?

That’s the bait; here comes the switch. Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.



*** a bit more at the link

***edited per DU copyright rules

[slackmaster]

1. It gets better when you get older

;-)

[Arugula Latte]

2. Oh, this oughta be good...

:popcorn:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

5. ...scootch...

[Arugula Latte]

11. Heh heh

I like your style. :thumbsup:

[joshcryer]

15. More like:

[fittosurvive]

23. Why is it that when I order extra large, they don't serve me an extra large?

[Occulus]

196. I got the bucket

[Yavin4]

30. Destined to be a DU Classic

Anybody got any butter for the corn?

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

35. meh... false alarm

[Yavin4]

224. O, Ye of Little Faith n/t

[csziggy]

43. Here I have some to share

[defendandprotect]

56. Why -- Manhattan Institute is a right wing organization ... against everyone's best interests -- !!

And Kay Hymowitz is about as feminist as Condi Rice is -- !!

[Modern_Matthew]

3. I'm 22. I'm not angry...I just don't feel like the reward is worth the trouble. n/t

[Rage for Order]

7. That's pretty much what the author says

Women seem to have over-played their hand with more than a few men

[joshcryer]

10. Gross generalizations are rarely true.

[Modern_Matthew]

12. Yep. I just see love as a consequence of life. Not something that should require action. n/t

[joshcryer]

17. I kinda agree. Don't shop for it, it'll happen.

Has happened twice with me but I was too lame to go for it both times (still getting my life priorities straight and I am a bad person anyhow).

[Zanzoobar]

60. That's part of the problem

Too many people think love happens.

Love a baby or cat, but don't bother with feeding.

Love is more an act than a feeling. You can feel all you want, but it's the expression that has meaning. It's the giving. Giving requires action.

[joshcryer]

65. It does happen, it takes only a miniscule amount of effort.

[Zanzoobar]

66. How disasterously wrong.

Unless you're Prince Charming or one of the other luck Disney characters whose story closes on an Epic Kiss which alters reality.

[joshcryer]

81. It's called experience.

[a la izquierda]

84. My husband doesn't have to do much...

He's just one of those guys. Doesn't make tons of money and never will. But he always has the advice I need, always listens (unless cycling is on, and then I'm watching too), and has put up with more in this life with me than he ought to.

[Codeine]

129. I didn't have to do anything.

She asked me out. Didn't even have to answer the phone -- she texted! :evilgrin:

[blueamy66]

165. I hit on my fiance first.

He makes less than me. I still pay for more of the bills/expenses than he does. I love him.

He lived in NC and I in AZ. I PAID to fly to NC 4 times to visit. I GOT the bigger apt. when he decided to move to AZ and be a couple.

I am soooo glad that I am not in the dating scene these days. What a pain in the ass.

People worry too much about $ and not enough about other people.

I don't really know why I posted this....I guess to dispute the info in the OP's post.

[Codeine]

177. I always like your posts.

You're a no-bullshit person. We need more of those. :hi:

[blueamy66]

191. thank you

people usually rip on my posts :-0

[Pacifist Patriot]

216. Infatuation perhaps, but deep abiding love? I'm not so sure.

[Rhiannon12866]

70. +1000

I agree. :thumbsup:

[lukasahero]

83. Exactly.

Oh - and welcome to DU! :hi:

[Pacifist Patriot]

214. +1

[defendandprotect]

54. No -- more like males are becoming addicted to internet porn and

are becoming largely incapable of relationships with women --

they're left behind with a magazine, a center fold -- and violent pornography

which, btw, we usually fail to note turns them on!

[CreekDog]

252. what if you said that about another group of people?

for example, replace "women" with "asians" or "african-americans". in other words, ascribing personality and behavioral traits to people based on their innate characteristics of birth.

then it would be obvious to more people the stereotyping you are engaging in, and such stereotyping is supposed to be against the rules here.

your post is ridiculous and that it's allowed to stand is perhaps worse.

[treestar]

73. How can that be?

You should have tried being 22 in 1955.

[leeroysphitz]

122. +1

[LaurenG]

160. So working on a relationship isn't worth it to you? I think that's fine if you really mean that.

You might want to consider that you may not always feel this way though and it might be that you meet someone very compatible with you down the road.

Age and experience will sometimes change your mind about the things you vehemently believe right now. I hope that you find someone who does make it worth all the trouble. :)

edit: typo

[Kurovski]

4. Because we don't get enough aspartame in our diet.

[Iris]

141. lol! n/t

[devils chaplain]

6. Yet another...

Yet another author making overreaching generalizations from a "trend" to sell a pseudo-social science book. I'll pass. I'm sure this applies to a fair amount of young people, but to admit it's a minority wouldn't sell so many books.

[antigone382]

13. Yep.

I particularly love how the evidence for this unified male anger against us hypocritical women comes from some online comments to a news story--like that's any kind of representative sample. There is no generation, gender, or demographic group of any stripe that is monolithic. There may be some underlying trends on which this author bases her assertions, but the conclusions drawn are unverified and shallow.

[Mojeoux]

16. They are Pissed That They Missed Out on the "MadMen" Years.

"No fair, girls usta be all worried about being called sluts."

[blondeatlast]

116. Exactly. I sometimes wonder why I haven't stumbled upon some "alarming" societal trend that

I can exploit for money and a brief stint as an Oprah infatuation, only to be bitterly dissed when my true motives are discovered by her.

I've seen this movie MANY times!

[SpiralHawk]

163. + 1,000,000

Article sounds like it was written by someone with a wicked bad case of those perennialy jaded Republicon Family Pharisee Values...projection city.

[joshcryer]

8. Kay S. Hymowitz is a real life troll. Look at her books.

Ready or not: why treating children as small adults endangers their future--and ours (1999)
Liberation's children: parents and kids in a postmodern age (2003)
Marriage and caste in America: separate and unequal families in a post-marital age (2006)
Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men Into Boys (2011)

As with all trolls there's probably some truth there. I personally am anti-marriage.

[devils chaplain]

20. Take from this what you will...

"Kay S. Hymowitz is the William E. Simon Fellow at the Manhattan Institute"

From the Manhattan Institute's website:

"Looking toward the future, the Manhattan Institute launched the Young Leaders Circle in January 2007, to provide a forum for young professionals in the New York metropolitan area interested in free-market ideas and public policy. The circle already has over 100 members, who hear such leading thinkers as David Brooks, Shelby Steele, William Kristol, and Steve Forbes discuss the pressing issues of the day in an evening lecture and cocktail party series."

[joshcryer]

31. Yeah, no big surprise there, really.

Just so I don't give the wrong impression, I'm not against marriage because I don't like wealth sharing, I'm against it for other reasons more philosophical. I'm weird. I'm all for wealth sharing.

[JVS]

37. David Brooks!

Ok, it's obviously an institution in league with Satan!

[blondeatlast]

117. Shocked, I tellz ya (I am not.). nt

[devilgrrl]

67. +1

Thanks for the info.

The op set off my bullshit detector.

[Bragi]

131. What a weird comment

Calling someone a "real life troll" because they write controversial books is both weird and a bit scary.

I guess using that definition we could call, say, Karl Marx, a "real-life troll."

[Occulus]

198. No, it's accurate

Read post #20

I will believe nothing this woman writes henceforth.

[Blue_Tires]

203. Yeah, I guess the major clue was when her book was profiled in

that bastion of feminism, the Wall Street Journal

Aside from that, she does make a couple of good, but obvious points...

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. I can't imagine that statement aimed at the opposite gender passing muster here.

[joshcryer]

19. Someone needs to try an experiment, post something like that in the Lounge...

...and then post it in General Discussion, and watch the hilarity of the responses that ensue.

One side would be entirely offended the other would be laughing it up. :rofl:

[upi402]

21. would that remain if gender was reversed?

doubt it.

and the poster would likely be warned if something like that were posted against women.

[joshcryer]

32. Seems you were wrong.

Mods are doing great lately.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

96. Amen. Been there.

[jp11]

Nothing new to me as a man.

[DCBob]

14. If you aren't angry you aren't paying attention..

imo.

[WinkyDink]

22. Because they are each born of woman. Even MacDuff. ;-)

[Bardley]

24. Some guys feel like they are lured into a trap of being 'sensitive'

which many women, in my expererience, generally dont respect

women should *absolutely* be treated with respect, but the guy cant appear weak while doing it

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bunny]

26. Holy christ that's some funny shit!!

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

228. +1000

[KittyWampus]

27. If the women you meet are all "entitled, dishonest, self-involved, manipulative etc"- YOU are the

problem. Take some time to ask yourself why you are drawn to women who are that way.

Same thing for women who say all the men out there are losers...

[Pithlet]

41. Much easier to generalize. Less work.

And when you have right wing hacks writing articles that validate that opinion, why work on your own problems?

[EstimatedProphet]

99. Best advice on the thread

It's very common for people to forget that attraction is a two-way street. Maybe if someone keeps selecting from a pool that they are subconsciously defining for relationships but keeps having the same failing issues, there could be a characteristic of that pool which is attractive but causing failures.

Case in point: guys may go after the women that are very obsessed with fashion. But if a person is so wrapped up in appearance that that becomes their meaning of existence, why assume that obsession will stop at their clothes? Such a person may be more likely to look at relationships as fashion accessories, too. I've seen many cases where just this has happened.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

101. That's me! I retired from dating 10 years ago because I finally figured out...

...that I was the problem. I'm "drawn" to entitled women (I guess it's because they're smokin' hot). :shrug:

The whinin' and the naggin' are part of the deal

whining = it's your fault I feel like this
nagging = you're the one who is supposed to do something

I had figured out that I was the problem, but awareness was no match for passion and passion is blinding...until it isn't anymore. Six months later, I wind up completely disgusted with her and angry. And there just isn't enough money or time to get my ass fixed even though I was in therapy for 7 years. So I tapped out at age 34. Been a happier person since, and the world is a better place because of it.

[seabeyond]

111. isn't that interesting. and see, i feel so complimented.

what throws me off so, hearing men talk like this, is a lifetime of being around really really good men. i have not had an ugly man in my life. peripheral maybe, but none that were a part of my life.

must mean i am not the problem, lol

enjoyed your post. and happy you are happy. i was happy when i was single. happy married. i could go either way.

[blondeatlast]

118. +1 on both points. nt

[EstimatedProphet]

136. Also, I'd add to what I said earlier

Same thing for women who say all the men out there are losers...

Good point. Both cases are really symptoms of another issue: we are being taught through our media to only want only a few specific types of people for relationships. For men, it's probably the beer commercial hot chick. For women, maybe it's Edward from Twilight... It takes a long time to grow out of the attraction to these types. That's why the story is finding guys in this age group saying these things - they haven't grown up yet.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

192. Exactly right!

A lot of young guys (and young gals) think with their hormones instead of with their brains and hearts.

They have more exposure to the world of commercial entertainment than to real life, so they think that the beautiful but high-maintenance woman or the handsome but dangerous man is the ideal catch.

Meanwhile, both of them have wonderful potential partners whom they pointedly ignore as "not good looking enough," "not rich enough."

[Pacifist Patriot]

220. Wise post

[joeunderdog]

28. hook up as freely as a Duke athlete...?

Uh, they got framed. :wtf:

[lukasahero]

47. They were 'framed' for rape

Not 'hooking up'. I assume you do know the difference. :shrug:

[joeunderdog]

59. The famous Duke boys were busted for sexual assault.

The alleged victim recanted after she had claimed that they didn't know the difference.

I assume this is the obvious connection, a bit of misdirected hyperbole.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

29. Entitled...check

That's the one that I get. I do more up front--guilty--but I do expect things to settle down. I do expect that the give-take disequilibrium created at the beginning of a relationship will sort itself out...right? After all, we are two adults. But six months later, nothing has changed! :\ and I get all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KIzbktgJk

[Maru Kitteh]

33. Gosh, a writer who aligns herself with Bill Kristol & Steve Forbes thinks women have gotten uppity?

SHOCKED I say.

[Pithlet]

38. WIsh I could say I was shocked that there were people here who agreed with it.

Sadly, that isn't the case

[lukasahero]

48. Ba-da-bing!

You and me both.

[defendandprotect]

57. +1

[leftstreet]

34. WTF? "pre-adulthood" is the twenties and early thirties?

lol

[Dash87]

98. Well, we are talking about men here.

Haha sorry. :P

[undeterred]

112. ...up to 55 then

:rofl:

[seabeyond]

36. go onto ny article cnn has with gender adn you will hear men repeatedly make these comments.

i have been hearing and seeing this a lot. we use to get it more on du, until it wasnt allowed anymore and people stated being ts.

there is a whole lot playing out here. it is often what i want to discuss on many of these gender threads but we dont even begin to get into the topic. there is a real problem with our youth.

i have been wanting to start a thread for a while about why girls/women expect men to pay.... think i will finally get on tht

[Pithlet]

39. Comment sections are filled with trolls.

So you can't really gauge the state of youth/society in general based on what they say.

[seabeyond]

40. maybe. i get that. but it is the number and the consistency of these comments. nt

[Pithlet]

42. Yes. Consinstant in their trolling.

Rare is the comment section that isn't filled with the absolute dreck of the internet. If I based any opinions on what I read there, I would soon fit right in this red state of mine.

[seabeyond]

44. i had never paid attention. and here recently i have been and seeing BAD american woman.

bad bad. go to different country. american woman think she is a princess. it is HORRIBLE....

thanks for stating otherwise. i was.... wtf.

[Pithlet]

46. Are you quoting someone else

Or are you saying that American women are bad? Edit OH, I think you were giving examples of the comments you've seen? Yeah, comment sections are beyond awful.

[seabeyond]

49. i am american, and a woman. i like me. lol. i like a lot of my american women friends, lol.

no, i am not saying it. but i hear it a lot from men.... on the net, and you put it into perspective. i just had not heard that american women were bad. now, that is all i am hearing.

[Pithlet]

50. It's okay, I figured it out. Sorry about that.

I think I read your post too fast before. But yeah, comment sections are the absolute worst. So many of them aren't moderated.

[seabeyond]

51. but, why are men on those sites so angry? why are they saying those things?

and i really dont hear the same anger from the women and the consistency like this.

[Pithlet]

55. Why do any of them say half the trolling crap they say?

Who knows? It seems like there's a competition on the internet to be the biggest asshole. I don't think anything can be read out of it.

[Union Scribe]

77. 'cause they're 15 and their only socialization skills come from

calling each other homophobic slurs on xbox. Those aren't men.

[Union Scribe]

76. That's like deciding all humans are racist perverted morons from YouTube comments.

It's just not a fair sampling, comment sections are like dipshit magnets.

[Pithlet]

79. So true.

And no one who is not a dipshit will stay around for long. They get tired of it eventually and go away.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

102. +100 I love how people are making ad hominem arguments. Ridiculous.

I've never been a gamer and never even had a computer until after I stopped dating. I'm 44, but that doesn't mean shit. I had seen this in my 20s and 30s. And I'm exceptional? Hardly. Is this hard science?, as if all we can discuss here are rigorous studies. Ridiculous.

[MilesColtrane]

45. Bullshit, moronic over-generalizations based on gender make me angry.

Especially when their veracity is bolstered by comments dredged from the internet.

[Marr]

52. Divisive bullshit meant to sell books. I'll pass.

Assholes come in both genders, as do quality people.

[defendandprotect]

53. Manhattan Institute and the new anti-feminist Kay Hymowitz ... ???

Hymowitz is about as much a "feminist" as Condi Rice is -- !!

This is a People for the American Way website comment on right wing Manhattan Institute ...

EXCERPTS --

•Charles Murray served as a visiting fellow from 1981-1990. Murray later authored the controversial 1994 work, The Bell Curve, in which he argues that the gap between black IQ scores and white and Asian IQ scores in America cannot be explained by social factors and subsequently forwards the idea of genetic intelligence differences between races.

•Abigail Thernstrom serves as a senior fellow at the Institute. She has advanced controversial opinions about the state of American race relations and serves on the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. She was one of only two members to dissent from the Commission's eight member panel in finding evidence of racially-based election irregularities regarding the 2000 election in Florida.
Funding

Major contributors include Exxon Mobil, Chase Manhattan, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Lilly Endowment, Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, Sarah Scaife Foundation, Roe Foundation, Smith Richardson Foundation.



History
The Manhattan Institute originated in the late 1970s as a conservative, free-market think tank with a focus toward addressing urban social problems in New York City. Playing a large role in developing and influencing the policies of Mayor Giuliani, the organization rose to national prominence during New York City's 1990s revival as it advocated the privatization of sanitation services and infrastructure maintenance, deregulation in the area of environmental and consumer protection, school vouchers and cuts in government spending on social welfare programs. The Manhattan Institute subsequently became one of the foremost policy institutions with regard to urban social issues such as crime, education, welfare, and race relations. Under the Bush Administration, the Institute has gained increased standing in a wider range of issues and has established itself as one of the Condoleezza Rice in 2002 and both President Bush and Vice-President Cheney in 2006.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/manhattan-institute-policy-research


And re these comments --

“Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you."

All signs are pointing to males becoming addicted to internet porn --

if you can masturbate 24/7 to a center fold and violent portrayals of porn on the internet,

who wants to bother with a real relationship with a female. In fact, how could they possibly

handle one? :eyes:

[girl gone mad]

58. Divide and conquer..

and it looks like the men are falling for it hook, line and sinker.

Better wise up, kids.

[FreakinDJ]

62. DING DING DING - We have a Winner Folks

I read it this morning and when I come back I see people still fighting or it

[readmoreoften]

71. +1

[WatsonT]

61. "why are men so angry"

Constant broad-brush articles explaining why they are so angry and dysfunctional likely aren't helping.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

63. Bullet Proof Vest: Check - Six Months Rations: Check - Landmines: Check - Fire Extinguisher: Check

Okay here it goes... and I say this as a man happily in a permanent relationship...

Where does this romantic angst come from? Mostly a sense by young men who witnessed half their parents divorce that going down the traditional road of marriage and family pretty has a pretty good chance of ending in divorce, probably for a superficial or stupid reason resulting in him being wiped out financially in a paranoid misogynistic fantasy in which the destitute divorced husband will be financially bled dry while his ex-wife is playing in cougar town. While the alternative is perceived to be enjoying a suspended adolescence with an adult income which includes fornicating with like minded women which aren't exactly hard to come by.

Is this reality? No - but perceptions need not be real to influence personal behavior.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

103. Pretty damn good, Senator

[Zanzoobar]

64. I'm not angry either.

But I find it pleasing to let a door offer its own hard manner to any person I can reasonably assume was born after 1968, my own dear mother excluded.

[Common Sense Party]

226. What does that even mean?

[Silver Swan]

68. What I seem to see on message boards

Is that young men think that marriage is a bad deal because the woman will get a divorce and take "half his stuff."

I don't know what they think marriage is, but in my marriage, I paid for at least half the "stuff," so I wasn't taking anything that I didn't deserve. (And the divorce wasn't my idea--contrary to the internet belief that women file for over two-thirds of divorces.)

I agree divorce is unpleasant, and often difficult financially, but the difficulties apply to both parties.

[Pithlet]

75. That has never made sense to me.

Yeah, you can stay single and "get to keep all your stuff" But then you don't' get anything a partner would contribute. Once you throw in with someone else, both sides are contributing at least in some fashion, so all the man sees in his domain is no longer all his. I do think anyone who views it this way is better off not get married, though. If they just view their partner as nothing more than someone tagging along with them and their "stuff", and meant to just *poof* disappear if things go south, leaving everything untouched.

[Beacool]

69. Simple, women may want to skip the 20 somethings and date men, not boys.

Guys that age bore me anyway. They are either self involved braggarts or they don't have enough general culture to maintain my interest.

:(

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

104. Likewise. 20s are no time to be getting married. Extended adolescence...

...boys acting like boys and girls acting like girls. Good luck finding a man and a woman.

[seabeyond]

107. there is a point to this. average marriage age has risen to females 25. something

and men 27. something. and much healthier that is. i was 32 before married and i spent most of my 20's not being an adult. would have been disastrous if i had married, or made me grow up. but i was 28 before i literally told myself time to grow up.

that being said, marriage and raising children has been so very fuckin easy. and i attribute it to being older and having played in twenties.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

110. Thank you, seabeyond. I think we can find worthwhile things to talk about...

:hi:

...I love relationship talk.

I'm a guy, now in my mid-40s, and a relationship flunky. But I know why, and I know I'm not unique. And though I can't save myself, my friends and others find confiding in me useful. :)

[seabeyond]

113. yup.

was enjoying your post above. i hear ya.

[Beacool]

114. Yes, I think that those in that age group nowadays need a little more time to grow up.

People married young in past generations, but they also died younger and life was tougher. We are a pretty spoiled society and people act accordingly.

Obviously there are exceptions to every rule and a person in his/her 20s can be more mature than someone much older.

;)

[treestar]

72. Do the statistics bear out women making more money?

Doubting this.

As to women taking the initiative in dating, that's great - as long as none of the men call that "desperate."

[AngryAmish]

106. For young people it is true

More women then men graduate from high school and college nowadays. Let's see if Title IX means what it says.

[bettyellen]

172. they still make 75 for every dollar in comparable positions, the thing is

they are graduating with more and better degrees than men, and so qualifying for better jobs. so they are getting less money for the same effort, that much is pretty much unchanged in the last 30 years,

[HEyHEY]

74. Odd, I've only ever been mad about career, wages and stuff. Never women.

[CommonSensePLZ]

78. I don't care how angry it makes the hard-core feminists, THIS IS TRUE

I am in the age range the OP mentions and I was raised to believe in feminist propaganda about how men and women are supposedly the same, but it is NOT TRUE and society proves it. Look at the Chris Brown-Rihanna thing. It's fact that Rihanna hit Chris and instigated the fight, but it's Chris, violent, scary, black MAN that is hated, Rihanna is just sweet, pretty Penelope Pitstop the damsel in distress.

A hundred years of feminism hasn't changed and can't change what females biologically are like. In spite of having the vote women don't believe a woman should be president! WTF? Feminism tells us that women are just as independent as men, yet why are girls so easy to become followers of starlettes? Feminists say "bad role models" but why do girls need to form themselves in someone else's image anyway if they're supposedly innately capable of independence? Feminism still hasn't explained why women supposedly suffered thousands of years of males being socially and domestically dominant if women didn't consent to it.

Even today we men have learned to accept our gentler side, but do girls like it? NO. In fact they hate it and scientific studies have proven that women are turned on by dominance and power in a man, not sensitivity.
http://www.cracked.com/article_18866_5-reasons-women-are-as-shallow-as-men-according-to-science.html?wa_user1=3&wa_user2=Sex&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=recommended (written by a woman BTW)

Feminists tell us that men and women are equal in all ways, but it's not true even physically. In sports events the bar must be set at a lower level for females. It's not even possible to TALK to girls because there's all kind of strategy and technique you have to beware of to figure out what women want to hear and to not offend them.

We might be overcoming shallow race and religious divides, but our species might never have gender equality. I blame Mother Nature.

More links about how men and the "fairer sex" (lol) are different:
http://www.mydaily.com/2011/02/25/mean-girls-explained-science-reveals-how-women-form-alliances
http://www.cracked.com/article_18760_6-things-everyone-knows-about-women-that-arent-true.html

[Book Lover]

80. Please, sweet Jesus, stop pretending you know what feminism is about

Maybe I should blame my generation of feminists. We *clearly* didn't get the memo out to people before the megatheocorpritocracy took over and changed the message around. It's not about "choices", a fucked-up marketer's message extrordinaire. It's not about some absurd and impossible equality in the sense that you talk about; it's about civil equality. It's about dismantling the system, revolutionizing the very way you organize the world, you and your place included. Read a book for god's sake, or at least google "feminism 101" before you go off again on what you think feminism is.

[vim876]

82. Look...

I love Cracked, but if you're citing them as your source in a serious discussion, there's probably something wrong with your argument. Repeat after me: evo psych is not the answer.

[seabeyond]

86. this. this evo psych of the last decade is all about creating male as dominent. a reaction to

equality and feminism. and too many men buying into it because it is all about creating male as superior. i think this has created so much harm in gender issues.

[PassingFair]

85. Still haven't explained why women suffered second class status?

Use your head.

:crazy:

[seabeyond]

87. you are exactly the poster that i talk about above. that they tell me is not for real. that i

believe is for real. that you really believe this stuff, and you really feel this way. but i am assured you are just a 15 yr old troll that cant get a date.

which is true.

[joshcryer]

88. I doubt he's representitive of any majority.

I live in the ghetto and there are a lot of guys like that, serious lame-o's who need their "woman to respect them" while whining about cell phone minutes left (heard that conversation through the walls seriously not even 10 minutes ago). But I know damn well the guy on the other side of the wall is a pathetic minority, though I do wonder if the trend is that direction given how poorly males are now doing in school contrasted to females.

[seabeyond]

89. this is where my concern is. five years ago, i would not even spend time considering this shit

but last five years i am hearing it more, seeing it more, watching it grow. ilike to hope it is a minority. it doesnt feel like a small group anymore. it feeds off itself. i ask my son, about his friends to get a better guage if this is their reality.

[joshcryer]

95. So in a sick way you actually agree with the article! MAWH!

Teasing.

edit: I can't say if it's heading that way for sure, because I live in the ghetto and live around shitty ass mean spirited assholes, so it's not really a good sample, when I was going cross country across the US I met a lot of good people, and that was only 7 years ago so it can't have changed that much, I will be doing it again some day soon, maybe in 3 years as an anniversary thing.

[Pithlet]

91. The point wasn't that they don't exist.

The whole point was the OP was a right wing hack using comment sections to praddle against women and the feminist movement. Well, all those "angry men" say so in the comment sections so it must be true! They're right! A very questionable way of arriving at a conclusion.

[seabeyond]

93. i got that

from what you all were saying. i had not check out the writer of the book, so i didnt know what she brought to the table. the thing, is men are continually being reinforced with this stuff on the net. on supposed news org like cnn. bunch of sexist study after study confirming this crap. an article in times magazine the last two issues reinforcing it.

then we wonder why men are being conditioned

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

109. I was thinking about the trolling here, too

I was thinking that one, scorned poster (man or woman, because I think the trolling is non-gender specific) made the first ad hominem attack on the the author and the group think trolling ensued. I'm thinking the trolls are mostly scorned, as well.

[WatsonT]

150. So which is he

A representative sample proving all or most men are like this or just a 15 yr old troll that can't get a date?

Can't be both, unless you believe most men are 15, troll leftwing websites, and are dateless.

[seabeyond]

that was my question, i dont have the answer though nowhere did i say or imply ALL

or most, so that part has nothing to do with anything.

[WatsonT]

153. On another thread

when I said that a small minority of people acted a certain way, you assumed that to mean all.

Just returning the favor.

:)

[seabeyond]

154. that is pretty chicken shit, lol. instead of just sayin, i fucked up. dont know

whatcha talkin about and not really go chasing that one around.

[WatsonT]

155. Alright

You fucked up.

There, I said it.

:)

[seabeyond]

156. there are a very few posters on du that take it to a never ending circle. that is when i stop. nt

[RandomKoolzip]

90. Cracked.com is your source?!

Dude - just admit it - you got rejected because you're socially awkward and you stewed about and then extended that feeling to where you now think "women can't be satisfied." Your "evidence" is anecdotal and experiential - you have no scientific leg to stand on here.

Rejection happens to everyone. You're not unique. I've been rejected a bunch of times, but I've still taken the time educate myself on gender relations. I actually TALK with women in real life, I approach them as friends. I listen to them. Be (genuine - no ulterior motives) friends with some women first before you let some bad experiences with the "other" paint your worldview for you. Learn to see them as human beings with the same strengths and vulnerabilities as you. Believe me, there's no conspiracy happening with women WANTING to make men unhappy. That's entirely up to us.

Claiming that women WANTED men to keep them as chattel for thousands of years is one of THE most offensive things I've ever read on this board. I'm sorry women won't touch you but that has NOTHING to do with the history of hierarchical social structures or the power relationships within them. And now, paradoxically, if you continue to adopt this newfound anti-woman stance, your chances of getting laid are REALLY gonna plummet.

Anyhow, good luck and get help.

[Avant Guardian]

97. So you counter it with a personal attack?

lol
Some people just cannot detect sarcasm even when it is the 800 lb guerrilla in the room.

[CommonSensePLZ]

123. omg ur right! :o

None of what I was talking about was what I was talking about, I'm just mad at myself for not being rich, manipulative and cocky enough at "the game" to score hot chicks! :sarcasm:

-facepalm- My point is I'm apart of a generation that was fed a lot of ideals and promises about the high intellectual caliber of women which I'm disappointed to have seen did not turn out to be much more than just ideals. They tell us at 5 years old how girls can be whatever they want, but by 15 their heroes become Katy Perry, Tinkerbell and Barbie. By 25 they're trolling for any rich guy they can be with. I just find it disappointing that the majority girls actually go on prove negative stereotypes of themselves true - this is NOT always the case of course and I have a lot of respect for women who actually do go on to be doctors and such.

And you come here and make a discussion about the realities of gender in a contemporary first-world nation about dating and how you have to play a game to succeed and somehow think that you're better me? -double facepalm-

[seabeyond]

124. your comments dont jive with facts. that is what i think people have issue with. MORE

women are going to college, graduating from college, and getting jobs in the professional world not only compared to ever in the past, but COMPARED to MEN.

so, your comments that suggest you can find none of these women makes me ask... where are you lookin? the honky tonk bar? you are right, you will not find the bar full of professional women. they are at home getting ready for the next day.

[CommonSensePLZ]

134. You mean they don't jive with the facts YOU would rather acknowledge

I've read studies on that too, they allude back to what the OP said about how women want the right to earn their own money. Yet the other double standards and things I pointed out still stand. They do go to college and work, but the fact is there ARE still women out there who try to get by being pretty and using sex and that the female mind and personality isn't all that myself and many men were told it is.

[seabeyond]

i responded to your post stating those women werent around. they arent my facts... they are facts,

reality.

of course there are women like you suggest, nor has anyone said there isnt. there are asshole males, too.

if ALL you find are the ugly woman, then you need to ask yourself why. why you are attracted to and would put up with that woman. why you cant find a good woman. really has nothing to do with my whole gender. has to do with you.

[JVS]

140. Why do you always call women by the word "women" but use "males" for men?

[seabeyond]

143. i dont always. i try to keep it consistent. generally i use

female when it is a subject that covers both girls and women. and then use women when mainly talking about older females. i generally do the same with males. (hence talking both older and younger). but i try to use male/female or woman/man together. my oops on this one. but then i dont see an issue with male, female. though i know some women dont like using female for women. i dont get it.

so no

i dont always do it. but i dont see a problem if i do because for me there is nothing negative in it. just emcompassing a whole of a gender or group of the gender.

why? why do you see it as an issue enough to ask. curious.

[WingDinger]

195. And some of us grew up in SOCAL. The real wives of Orange County

is not some fiction.

[seabeyond]

199. having grown up in socal myself.... do you think the men have anymore substance

than the women. do you think the men are any less shallow than the women.

been there, know that

[WingDinger]

205. I think men do what they must, to get along. And the tune has been called.

As has become apparent, you toe the line, or drop out. Those are the options. And those are only options, if you have money. Most men, and now most women try to hitch, during a personal high. All the Fox newsbabes get knocked up and hitched while they are flush. As was alluded to in Sex and the city, you must watch that the men in your life are not on some artificial and fleeting personal high.

And God help you if you were. After the high, your status will drop like a rock. As has been said many times, most divorces are money related.

There is an equivalent movement in Japan. They are called grass eaters. And they seem to be deeper better men for opting out. unfortunately, they are very metrosexual, and their stock likely rises to the degree that they will become again sex{all expense paid} objects.

Men have no options, unless they have money and power. If they do not, and act as if they count, they are generally thought of as delutional, or the catchall, jerks.

[seabeyond]

210. you have written yourself a sorrowful story and totally powerless and absolutely no control

you make your gender out to be very weak, incapable, sad.

the men have no part in the circumstance? it is all the woman that creates this? do you think maybe, possible, you are only looking from one perspective?

japan, the men find their wives nonsexual once they are preg. the male population thru their patriarchy are the ones that decided women were useless sexually once they had a child. the men moved to prostitutes and porn once their wife became preg.

and it has helped to create the society they live in today

but isn't it just so much simpler to point the finger at women and say, they did it.

you state women after only money? from beginning of time to today lots of average joes marry average janes. and yes, there are some women that marry for money. and there are some men that marry for womens looks for his ego. users. both ways. but majority of people marry within their social structure. that is not marrying for money. the majority of married women are in the work force. ergo, not just the mans money but hers too, seeing how neither have money and they both need to work to pay the bills

if you cannot find a good woman, with character, honest and moral compass, that is within your abilities and control and power.

[RandomKoolzip]

151. Oh well. Instead of rebutting any of your nonsense, I'll let your words

hang you. Take care of yourself.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

194. Obviously you're hanging out with the wrong women

Go where the women who are interested in the things you are interested in ARE. It won't be in the singles' bars, for the most part.

You want an intelligent woman? Hang out in bookstores, attend plays and non-pop concerts, take a night school class in something that isn't job-oriented, volunteer for a political cause or a charity that you're interested in.

I think a lot of young guys have a limited idea of where to meet women.

[JVS]

94. Even taking into account that Rihanna struck him first, slamming her head in a car door seems...

over the top when it comes to self-defense.

[Dash87]

100. "Propaganda about how men and women are supposedly the same"

:spray:

[blondeatlast]

119. Cracked? Is that where your "common sense" originates from?

I'm sorry to do this, but I'm posting what I'm actually doing on my side of the monitor...

:rofl:

[CommonSensePLZ]

130. RE: Omg cracked.com lol

The fact that a WOMAN bothered to write an article about her own gender and and link several legitimate sources for her negative points that disagree with your beliefs like this one from http://healthland.time.com/2010/10/25/the-science-of-dating-wear-red">Time magazine doesn't mean anything. :shrug:

[RandomKoolzip]

152. You capitalized "WOMEN" when you should have capitalized the article which preceded it.

[CommonSensePLZ]

162. (that was for emphasis) Feminism promised me....

-That ALL women were intellectual

-That women weren't materialistic

-That women weren't pre-occupied with looks, their own and those of others

-That women only want to be viewed with platonic respect as a person and for their mind and don't want to be viewed as sexual objects

-That women aren't hypersensitive

-That women don't play games and DO like the truth

-That women have simply been the victim for eons, not willfully submissive

-That women are as good as men at anything they want to do

-That men and women actually could platonically be 'just friends' seriously

-That women want a man who they have an intellectual rapport with, not "game" or money

-That women were gentler and more just in heart than men

-That a man and a woman could be equals in a relationship

None of you knows the women I've known in my lifetime or what life has taught me about the genders (the shit I could tell you I've observed would shock you cold) and I can only make assumptions about yours, but I feel very disillusioned about what I've actually come to see women of various generations are like and patterns that sadden me a bit.

What happened to feminist ideal of women?! That's what I wanted! I generally respect the rights of women that feminism lobbies for, but despise with gusto the females that fit the descriptions above, but they seem to be so common. -sigh- If that's just how females are I've learned to somewhat respect it.

[seabeyond]

164. really? your interpretation is feminist promised YOU an ideal woman. hm. nt

[CommonSensePLZ]

166. Not AN ideal woman..

Seems to me feminism is largely an idealized concept of what ALL women are like when given the same opportunities as men. While I know women still face challenges, many men and much of society has changed its standards to largely make things fairer for women to do their thing. That if we did this it would be like there'd be a whole new species of superwomen, all of them a half Sojourner Truth, half Xena, and for a while I bought it. Girls are still basically just girls. Feminism kind of failed at least twice within one century where they went from flappers pushing for the vote back to housewives, then hippies back to housewives. Now we've got housewife Palin running for president lol -_- (ok that last part is actually the most depressing).

Desperate Housewives is good though.

Am I wrong? Are gender equality and identity issues related to feminism itself or is it just about changing the social and labor situation for women? Where do self-identifying feminists draw their boundaries on these issue? BTW you can answer if you dare and maybe be flamed by someone else for disagreeing with them if this line of thought begins causing dissention in the feminism ranks, and I respect your right to your opinions, but I might not care to continue or involve myself further in this futile, depressing argument.

[seabeyond]

168. answer if i dare? what are you, a kid? are you really suggesting all men are the same given a

single opportunity? are you really suggesting every man will approach and receive an opportunity just the same. ALL men are one. in ALL ways.

that is absurd. right? ridiculous. to the point of stupid to say.

why would you even begin to think that anyone's goal is to make ALL women one. can't get beyond stupid on this.

have women grasped the opportunities. well, lets look at the stats AGAIN.

more women in college. more women graduating. more women going into professional work.
more women marrying later. more women having fewer kids
more women fucking on their mate
more men staying at home raising kids, taking care of house.

and much more

yes, women are taking advantage of the opportunities they are given

[CommonSensePLZ]

175. That's nice

My point was that the ideals seem to be just ideals of making all women into one type of personality that they still aren't. For instance feminism tells us that women aren't vain and they know they're beautiful just as they are, yet the numbers of girls who develop eating disorders or who might be near their ideal weight still thinking they're fat are nowhere near what feminism would have us believe. Hell, being called fat is one of the worst insults girls levy.

[seabeyond]

176. so you are looking for a miracle. all of society, media, culture on are little girls back their

worth is their sexuality. and it is not even their sexuality. it is only their sexuality if it is about turning on man, because mans sexuality is it, all consuming, all empowering, it. so the only role, the only worth of a female is the ability to turn the man on.

all society. all are being conditioned.

and you are blaming feminists because they have not been able to stop this tsunami of degrading demeaning objectifying dehumanizing females to this level?

hey.... you want to help us out to help our girls. and btw, in the process, our boys, too.

[CommonSensePLZ]

181. But we're talking half the world's population and thousands of years of habits

We've seen that culture is stronger toward race than supposed genetics, but what if not genetics accounts for the quirks of women that I mentioned? I don't think feminism can just wish that away, which again leads me right back to my original point.

[seabeyond]

184. feminists are bright enough to understand there is not a magical wand.

ALL the accomplishments and advancements of women are ignored in your scenario so that you can continue to bring it back to your original point.

if you take women of the 50's and watch the explosion of freedoms of the women of 60's you know it is not genetic. there is no way all the perceptions and roles of women go up in a puff of smoke in a matter of a decade and then how they have been progressively changing the last 3 decades. thousands of years women were a step above animal, incapable, unable. one generation and so many walk away from it. HUGE clue in it is not biological but condition.

we went from women coming to their own, to the age of porn which subjugates and demeans and degrades and dehumanizes for male dominance in the same manner of the domination of the fifties and before as the male head of household bullshit.

i am not blaming males. i am blaming females. i am not blaming females. i am blaming males. i am saying, so many of us are allowing ourselves to be conditioned by media of both genders and it behooves neither genders.

you cannot find a woman you want. a woman doesn't respect herself, why the hell is she going to respect the man. men are more and more not respecting women as a whole. and women respecting men less and less.

how is that going to work for any of us?

it is not one gender. it is both genders. it is neither gender....

[ladyVet]

167. honey, this may come as a shock to you,

but feminism isn't about YOU.

[CommonSensePLZ]

169. This may come as a surprise but I never said it was

My point is that a lot of the ideals, nice though they sound haven't been realized.

[ladyVet]

170. Er,

"feminism promised me".....

Your own words.

[CommonSensePLZ]

173. Yep

Yet you seemed to have failed to notice how I pointed out things that aren't about me.

[seabeyond]

171. well, there you go. blacks have not acheived all ideals, nor gays. so everyone should just stop

and go back to the old ways of white patriarchal heirarchy and dominence

[Iris]

144. Is this post a joke? Because you are using "America's Only Humour and Video Site" as a source

And the author of the first article has a woman's name, but no last name. In fact, here's her "bio" -

Mortal Wombat's Cracked photo

* Real Name: Mortal Wombat
* Location: 888 Chop Suey St., Sushi City, Panda
* Member Since: March 7th, 2004
* Last Seen: February 28th, 2011 3:57 pm
* Personal tag line: I am not creative enough to have written a personal tag line yet.
* Message board posts: 13,249


Read more: http://www.cracked.com/members/Mortal%20Wombat#ixzz1FNK4Yzta

[CreekDog]

253. Context matters...Cracked is a magazine that aims to poke people of all sorts

and never claims what they say to be right.

however, posting it verbatim here as if it's appropriate for a debate about whether women are the stereotypical things the OP claims is inappropriate.

it would be like discussing parenting and child abuse and quoting one of Bill Cosby's stand-up shows where he says his mother beat him with a stick and he made a joke of it.

[sendero]

263. Growing up in the 70s..

... it took me 20+ years to figure this out and for once I have a great relationship.

Anyone who thinks women are just men without a penis does not understand women and cannot have a successful relationship with one.

[JVS]

92. Telling a man that being single is pre-adulthood is like telling a woman that her career ...

is just a phase until she becomes a mother. That's probably why she got negative feedback.

[WatsonT]

115. And yet few appreciate the double standard

You are wrong if you don't fit to cultural norms for how your gender is supposed to act. If you choose to break with the crowd and do what you feel is best you need to be denigrated and dragged down until you conform.

1950s sexist telling women to get back in the kitchen or 2011 columnist telling men to get back to work?

[TransitJohn]

120. Very good point. +1 n/t

eom

[Union Scribe]

202. Great point.

[lumberjack_jeff]

218. +2

[Major Hogwash]

105. Hahaha!! Kay Hymowitz sounds like a female version of Adam Carolla!!

The completely unfunny asshole from the Man Show.

[Romulox]

108. Why in the world do women think they they are the only ones who get to "redefine gender roles"?

Men don't "owe" women children or relationships any more than women "owe" men sex. If women aren't getting what they want out of modern relationships, then they will have to negotiate with men.

It's worse than idiotic for women to reject their own traditional roles, while simultaneously demanding men uphold theirs...

[gkhouston]

121. um... ARE men angry? Or is this a bullshit premise invented to sell a lame book?

I haven't noticed men snarling at me when I go out in public. Is it my breath? :shrug:

[jp11]

126. Some are but obviously it helps to make it seem like an epidemic to sell a book.

[gkhouston]

132. I'm guessing the ones who'd squandered money on this book would be pretty pissed. n/t

[JVS]

142. I think the book is marketed toward women.

It's a marketing ploy of "Buy my book to see why men are so fucked up that you can't find a good one"

[lildreamer316]

125. Fine. So stop scorning older women, then.

Not fine, really,but I'm just saying..stop having a double standard, younger men. Don't scorn older women, and don't expect us to look 21. You can't have it both ways.

[MadHound]

127. Oh Boy, just what we need, more divide and conquer bullshit.

Why are men so angry, why are blacks so pissed, why are women so stuck up, why are whites so stupid, yadda yadda yadda ya da da.

This is simply more divisive propaganda, put out there to keep we the people divided, bickering and fighting amongst ourselves so that we won't unite to fight the real foe, the rich and powerful.

Don't fall for this shit.

[City of Mills]

128. Exactly!

Thanks for the post, I've been thinking the same thing.

[Bardley]

147. people make fun of money spent on studying the sex life of some bug

but if that bug eats crops, understanding the sex life is how you wipe it out

i'm not directing this at feminists, everyone deserves equal rights, i'm directing it at anyone who feeds the 'war of the genders' on either side as a serious avocation - i think there's some real evil intent behind it

whether you see it as nature, or creation, or both, there is a purpose to each gender - each needs the other to survive - a war against the other gender is a war against onesself

[ismnotwasm]

133. That's not what I hear

From the single young professional women I would with, I hear they're not so much angry as confused. A few blogs don't convince me we have so much untapped rage out there that women need to placate men to make feel better about fast societal changes and as a side benefit hook a marriage partner. The article is a bit offensive. Men don't want to be married? More power too you, just don't lie to your partner. Same with women.

I don't think they need to blame women and I don't think women need to blame women either.

As posted several times up thread, broad generalizations do no one any good. Male or Female I'd look for a partner who is kind, courteous, generally happy and shares interests. I'm a feminist and too old for the demographic mentioned, so that kind of male angst wouldn't appeal to me, but the ability to talk about what's happening with what I consider complex multifaceted gender issues, ie; I believe there are more than 2 genders for instance (as opposed to uptight me female you male bullshit)would certainly be attractive. Heterosexism is at best a turn off no matter how or when it's expressed, and that article reeks of it.

Of course, I've been with to the love of my life for over 20 years, so what do I know.

[DirkGently]

135. I've seen that attitude. Don't buy this tired alleged excuse.

I've seen a fair bit of that "modern women want 'equality plus'" beef out here in Cyber Land, particularly on a car enthusiast's board I frequented a few years back that seemed largely a 20-30 -yr-old male demo. I don't know how much it translates into real life thinking or behavior. It sure shouldn't.

It's really just the old, high-school locker room misogynistic posturing, set to slightly different music. Being generally contemptuous of women. Focusing on sex alone, and resenting any kind of emotional vulneraility or empathetic or beneficent impulse. It's not a new thing for young guys to label each other "pansies" for showing any kind of warmth or consideration to a woman. To be fair, my impression has always been that most of the guys talking that way are a) genuinely frustrated in their relationships (or lack thereof) and were projecting their self-rage onto women (rather an old story) and b) were strutting for their equally mate-less and clueless friends.

As to the core notion that some women demand both equality AND special treatment, I think it's a lot of weak, mean-spirited blather. It came from the same guys obsessed with the idea that white people are being oppressed due to the existence of the BET channel, and couldn't scream "self-obsessed fear and insecurity" any louder. It also unmasks the patronizing motivation behind some of the old civilities. A man can't open a door or pick up a check if a woman dares to vote and have a job? Because now she's too threatening? Takes a mighty fragile masculinity to be hurt and angry at the notion of working beside a woman and then being expected to be *nice* to her. Treating her as though she is special. Isn't thinking women are "special" kind of part of being a man? If women aren't "special," perhaps you'd prefer the company of a nice fish, or lizard. They're so undemanding.

That said, there are always people of whatever gender or inclination with inappropriate, unfair, nutty, or just incompatible expectations of others. Scanning personal ads online is always entertaining / horrifying in that regard, isn't it?

The answer's different for everyone, I guess, but it seems to me that in post-modern world, we've go to lighten up a bit and focus on having some fun with just treating each other *well*. What does the other person need or want? Who wants to lay back a bit, and who wants to be more active? In what circumstances?

A relationship's supposed to be about mutual good care and feeding of another person. It's not an arm's-length exchange of goods and services. It's socialism, not capitalism. You worry about what you can give, not what you can get.

[seabeyond]

138. i like your post

honestly, in my RL, i have only been around good men that i enjoy. so what i have seen on the net throws me. but i like you post. is reassuring.

[DirkGently]

146. It's the Gas 'n Sip scene from Say Anything. And the "divide & conquer propaganda" comments here

make a good point -- this is more rhetoric than reality. Another culture war to sell. Not to say that there aren't hateful people out there, and misogyny in particular. But there is a gap between these outrageous Internet-spawned memes and the way people think and behave in reality. I used to stray into the 'boyzz lounge' on that website sometimes and push back against some of the crazier stuff, for fun and to get people to think, but in the end, they (mostly) all knew they were playing a game, albeit a sad one. They're all the guys from "Say Anything" sitting behind the Gas 'n Sip waxing dismissively about women and self-congratulating on their deep knowledge, until Lloyd stands up and says:

I got a question. If you guys know so much about women, how come you're here at like the Gas 'n' Sip on a Saturday night completely alone drinking beers with no women anywhere?

... and walks off to find Diane Court.

:)

[lumberjack_jeff]

225. There's a very real undercurrent of "equality plus" being a desirable social goal.

I'm not going to regurgitate the stats, but social policy continues to promote the wellbeing of women long past the time at which the policies have created clear and obvious privilege.

Much of the locker room rhetoric is created by a vague and ill-formed understanding that equality can only be seen in the rear view mirror. Being required to pay for dates (with women who, unlike you, are actually employed) is a metaphor for the problems of bigger social policy. All the inconvenient parts of the patriarchy have been rejected, and all the lucrative ones embraced.

Some young men are beginning to see through the facade.

Misogyny is the most overused word on DU. I propose; "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of an accusation of misogyny approaches 1"

Insufficient hatred of men isn't the same thing as hatred of women.

[stevenleser]

137. I think it is safe to say there are both men and women who are angry at the opposite gender.

But that these are the minority of both. There is little new here.

[Xenotime]

139. Men started it and it all begins in the youth.

You let them play with guns and fight, they take that learned behavior with them into adulthood.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

148. Ever been in a relationship with an angry woman or two?

The ones I've been in relationships with were unable to fulfill their needs, and turned their anger on me, their convenient scapegoat. Did I get angry because I was being scapegoated? You bet I did. :mad:

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

178. The angriest, most rage-prone people I've known have been overwhelmingly female. nt

[kwassa]

256. oh please

the biggest ragers I have meet have been female.

Both sexes have the capacity for anger. Great anger. It is not gender-based.

[Bardley]

145. .....

[LaurenG]

157. What a crock inside that article

:rofl: This is an I'll show you all, starting with his mom and up to his last girlfriend. Good luck with that word tantrum. :rofl:

"American women. They’ve been bred to abuse men.” This fairly typical response that appeared at the Seattle Post Intelligencer website: “Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you."

[NuclearDem]

158. ANGRY?! WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT ANGRY?!

I AM NOT SHOUTING

[seabeyond]

159. lol. ah ha. nt

[Rex]

161. Sounds to me like sour grapes.

Some guys have one bad relationship and life goes all to poo poo. Wahh waaaaa. :eyes: What woman would be attracted to a guy that plays video games more then spending time with her anyways? Or wants to 'look' at internet porn more than having real sex? :eyes:

[houstonintc]

174. Men don't exist to serve women.... Why I am bitter

A big problem with both Kay and Kimmel is their strange belief that women in America are entitled to this "real" man. As in to them a financial security blanket who acts as a willing sperm donor and provider. It's strange that women can write articles complaining about men not "Maning up" which is essentially code for "being useful" to someone else, though I assure you if a man wrote a book called "womaning up" his head would roll.

The facts are simple, the opposite sex does not exist for anyone else's benefit and that cuts both ways. Men do not exists to fulfill a womans sense of destiny, her dreams or her aspirations any more then a woman exists to fulfill a man's dreams, aspirations and sense of destiny.

If I am to give up this cherished freedom I have for the sake of some other individual, that individual better be particularly amazing. Because right now marriage is more or less indentured servant statues for a man in my opinion that confers no real benefit. And considering the likelihood of divorce and loosing everything and then being financially burdened after-words.... dam. Even if I did everything right and provided I could still lose it all on her whim or as they say "Eat, Pray, Love fantasy".

I think the above covers my opinions on it from the perspective of a young male in this country. To me the system is titled grossly against my own survival.

[bighughdiehl]

180. good post, houstonic

We are still supposed to be the financial security blanket and sperm donor.
I will not give up everything for someone who insists on being
equal at work but still uses their biology to be a mooch.
I also do not want to have kids(7 billion is enough!), which also makes me a bad man, you see.

[houstonintc]

182. I am down for being a family man and all.... but...

And this is a big but.... I'd have to meet a woman who is worth sacrificing my freedom for.

I'll breed a bunch of kids and even be the big strong provider man. The issue I take with it is that you and I are supposed to act that way, and that every woman in America is allegedly entitled to this when she so desires it, by birthright of having certain biology.

Kay even quotes that book by Julie Klausser "I Don't Care About Your Band: What I Learned from Indie Rockers, Trust Funders, Pornographers, Felons, Faux-Sensitive Hipsters, and Other Guys I've Dated"... Essentially now older and wiser Julie is tired of dating these "guys" and wants "real men" as in financial security and family. Probably those real men were like me and became bitter after being rejected for the above. Fact is I've learned as a young male that playing that provider role win's me nothing in life, being bitter, arrogant and selfish however seems to get you something.

I'd rather not be a doormat, ATM machine and domestic slave.

[seabeyond]

188. with the now majority of married women working in the family unit

how can you intellectually come to your conclusions?

why dont you be the stay at home to raise the kids that need a parent and find a wife that will support you. then you can be the family man, which is certainly a worthwhile endeavor and you dont have to have a chip on shoulder that maybe the woman is "using" you while she raises the kids and takes care of all the issues at home.

it is really in your court if you find a good woman with character, or if you settle for a user. and users come in both genders.

and as you state finding a woman worth sacrificing your freedom.... surely you need to develop your own characters that make it worth it to a woman

[houstonintc]

208. I'll take that as well...

I'd love to also work from home. Honestly I don't think any human being was meant to slave away in a corporate desk and cubicle...

Raising kids and being a writer from the home would be fantastic, and probably better for me then having to be the arcane hunter gatherer for this little future clan.

[seabeyond]

211. so, set your sights on this goal. make yourself worth the catch

create the life you want to live.

lots of men are doing this. i have an aunt that had four girls. she had a breakdown staying at home raising them. she was much more geared to corrupt world. this was in the time women had to stay home. my uncle was the nurturer. still is 6 decades later. she became the breadearner. he took care of family. worked for them.

my brother is the nurturer. my SIL was lousy at it. she should have been the one working. he should have been the one staying home. they didnt do it. they divorced.

but, .... you have to create, work at, set up your life to allow it to happen

[houstonintc]

213. I actually am...

I don't know if I am a "nurturer" but I am a on the way to a Masters in History.

Granted it is an appeal to tradition but I have observed how traditional societies raised kids and a lot of it seems to fit a lot of what psychologists and child psychologists have been saying.

[seabeyond]

183. the woman that marries takes risk, too, equally. i am going with all you say until 3rd paragraph

then it becomes all about you. the equal continues even in this. the risk, the left with nothing, the taking care of kids without father supporting his own... ect...

with her "did everything right and provided she could still lose it all on his whim or as they say "Eat, Pray, Love fantasy".

i was single until 32. as a female, i felt the same way as you, reversing gender the only difference. i worked my career. i bought my house and made my life comfortable. i could have continued single, happy and content in life.

now, being married 17 yrs with a man i like, who has same moral values and character, and perception of life and wants in life that i do, i will say these 17 yrs of marriage have been so very very easy.

i suggest that everyone wait until they find someone that will allow them the ability to ENHANCE life with marriage.

i, too, felt the system tilted grossly against my survival.

[houstonintc]

185. Risk vs. Other risk...

Then perhaps you and I are of the same mind. I have yet to meet a person to convince me otherwise.

Her risks are pretty big, but I look at it for me, I could never see my hypothetical kids again, In fact I might not ever get my visitation right enforced, but O' boy is Child support enforced. Even if the economy goes sour it's enforced at threat of debtors prison basically. Not only that I could lose everything I worked for in a family at the unilateral whims and decision of another person. And considering many Government programs and Non-government agencies exist for single moms but none for the cut out father.... heck it's a stark and scary thing considering I saw it happen in my own family first hand what it does to a man.

Maybe it's a bit personal, I've read the statistics (50% divorce rate) and can see that it's definitely not a winner for me right now.

[seabeyond]

189. do you hear what a whine you are being? and i really am saying that respectfully. there is

personal responsibility here. when finding a mate, there is responsiblity on your shoulders. it is very easy for me to see a person of honest, character, morals. and it is easy for me to see characters that i know will not be conducive to the life i want. so in all my single time, when meeting a man that did not meet my level of good, i went on. until i found someone i could trust.

if i chose a person that lies, does not have a moral compass, then yes, i am setting myself up for grief.

gender is not the issue on this. there is good and not good in both gender.

you do have SOME controls in this whole thing. you do have the ability to decrease risk.

for you to go on about the abusive crt system when the majority of women with children who divorce end up in poverty and so many are not getting child support is the whine. you go on about what could happen to you when women step into marriage adn have kids knowing the odds of them being in much worse shape is way higher than the crts fucking with you.

find a woman with character (equally out there with men of character) and the worse happens, she is going to WANT you to be father, and the two of you would work together for the kids. wow. grown up behavior

but.... stats on divorce. listen to this, and closely.

divorce for the very young and not educated.... 70's%. divorce for second marriages 67%. divorce for third marriages 73%.

divorce for first marriages 41%. (in that 41% are the young, uneducated really high stat)

divorce for higher educated, older age marriages (25 and older) WAS 15% and has decreased to 11%.

i can handle those odds. i was older getting married. we have college. i can take the risk at 11% chance of divorce without being afraid.

[houstonintc]

207. Thanks for the Shaming language BS!

Yeah, sorry I got uppity masta....

Psssshhhh.... this is why single young men are angry. One of us points out our concerns and flippant hordes dismiss us or seek to emasculate us for raising the issue. I could say endless mean and shaming things about women but... I am sure I'd get flamed to kingdom come... however I am fairly certain nobody is going to call you on yours. Nobody except me probably.

Why does the mother get the kids in your mind? And why is being a "father" and being tied to someone considered the "grown up" behavior for me?

I am glad once more I get beaten over the head about how tough this or that is for women, I wasn't talking about them as I was presenting my perspective and likewise you simply divulged into shaming or more or less telling me to suck it up because "Women have it tough!".

People by the way change, the person who seems trustworthy now can easily shift. So far I am highly selective in whom I form long term relationships with. However that does not belay my concerns for my own future in toxic system I feel is unjustly pitted against me for no other reason then I was born with certain biology that some circles believe is evil by it's very nature.

[seabeyond]

212. that is what you got from that?

well, good luck to you

i dont care what gender we are, coddling doesnt cut it. not what i do. we create what we live. you sided only one perspective, and it was not even reasonable. as a fact in life. then you want sympathy for a fabricated scenario.

you are not powerless. and because i will not see you as powerless, you are pissed.

[houstonintc]

217. Your title...

Your title alone pretty much informed me of where this is going.

I cited MY perpsective... I guess mine isn't tolerated by those whom are allegedly tolerant.

I pointed out the court systems are often not fair to males, especially in a family divorce court. I pointed out the substantial risk I see...

You? You mocked me and insulted me for my concerns. Thanks for nothing, take your shaming language bullshit to someone who is swayed. I stated why I, a young male in America has cause to be bitter, you pretty much spat in my face.

[WingDinger]

222. Seabeyond is a good egg. Just a little politically correct.

[seabeyond]

229. thank you. and all in perception of political correct, whatever one choses to make that mean

bah hahaha

[seabeyond]

230. the problem is your perception is not reality. i give you reality from fact

and you want to ignore to hold onto your perception. i was giving you an out of your misconceived perception, yet you want to hold on tight to your perception to be victim. i dont want you to be victim because in victim hood your are powerless. i dont see you as powerless. i see you as empowered, if you chose. in being empowered you gain what you create.... in the positive manner.

not mock. if you want to twist reality, fact to mocking you, there is not a damn thing i can do to defend myself.

i gave you hope. alternatives in your power to gain what you want. broken down stats to see divorce is not what you perceive. reality that women walk into marriage with as much risk, neigh, more risk than male. that is not spitting on you. that is taking what you say seriously, and addressing it seriously, using my time and effort to let you see it does not have to be what you perceive it to be

that

is

caring

[WingDinger]

231. Mostly, you offer magical thinking. Just let it happen, and it will.

This is essentially, what daddy taught. Prince Charming will arrive. When you are ready.

[seabeyond]

233. are you serious? really? mindboggling. all of it is the work you put in to create what you want

IF you are just waiting for it to happen, it wont. not at all. not a little not kinda not sorta.

YOU have to do the work

[WingDinger]

235. That is my point.

[seabeyond]

238. that you have to work at something? nt

[WingDinger]

221. And how are men empowered, if not moneyed?

I can choose to do as I will. As soon as you add one other person, it is out of your control. Unless they are inflateable.

[seabeyond]

232. look at the world you live in, not just your world of you and a few others

the majority of people and majority of people i know dont have disposable income. they are working, paying bills and then enjoying their lives. it cannot be about money, cause they dont have it. they have to get the value of life outside of money. this is MOST people i know.

i dont get where you have the idea a mans only worth is wallet. that simply cannot be a reality of life or 90% of the marriages would have never occurred.

all individuals are empowered as only they have the means t create their life. only they have the ability to hand that power over.

you cannot consciously be saying that men are less empowered than women. and i never felt powerless being a woman. if i can walk live without being powerless, surely you can too.

i really dont get what you are asking, because it is so beyond my concept that you would feel that you have no empowerment.

as much as another is out of your control, it is out of control for her too. where you have the empowerment is your ability to take care of you, stay balance in body, emotion and spirit. and what you allow in your life.

then from there, life happens....

but that is whether you have another in your life or not. it is how you do life, once life happens, again your empowerment

[WingDinger]

236. Most guys save up, indulge a woman, break up, save up for the next round.

[seabeyond]

239. why the fuck do you do that. most men dated me cause they loved my confidence

then as soon as we started going out they started the control shit. wanted to tame that independence they admire so.

i say, .... fuck that shit.

and off i went

then i found a man that could not only handle my independence and confidence, but lathered himself in it.

we have been happy, marriage has been easy for 17 yrs.

took me a long time to find a man that allowed me to be me. but then, i give him the same courtesy which is what he was looking for.

[Bucky]

187. Please note, I personally DO exist to serve women.

Sadly, they don't seem to like the menu.

[Codeine]

197. I just tell them it's like Denny's.

The product is mediocre, but the portion is huge! :evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

200. ah hahahaha. ya right. not about quantity, but all about quality. nt

[bighughdiehl]

179. Unfortunately....

This article matches my experiences, too.
I do not PREFER to play X-BOx and look at porn over a real relationship, but
that is the way it has worked out for lots of guys-no other choice.
I tell my friends, and they agree, a most women want to "have their cake and eat it, too"
Now maybe there are some out there who want to be equal partners, but
I cannot seem to meet them.
Equal rights for women was clearly the right thing to do,
But clearly both men and women have yet to reap all
the best fruits of it.
I am 32, I am tired of paying for everything when dates make the same
or more money than me and later yet to see a previous interest grab a guy
who is a true pig, after also being told by female friends, my mom, sister, etc.
I need to keep being
nice, being a gentlemen, yada, yada, yada, yada.
There is just no way to win.

[Bucky]

186. I thought they were angry because my generation fucked up the environment & the economy

(PS, sorry about that, ya whippersnappers)

(PSS, also, sorry about the budget debt -- but my parents did help beat the Nazis)

[seabeyond]

190. funny, funny, and ps.... funny. lol. nt

[WingDinger]

193. Every woman I have cared about tried to take away my collective bargaining, and replaced it with

the gauntlet, or ordeal. They said that dating was when you turn up the heat, to proof him. All this crap is so the woman can trust that you will pay for her babies. This truth is why there is not any real equality. Which might be smart as most tenderness goes away, and the man is second class, as soon as bbabies arrive.

As my sister told her husband, I dont care what you do, as long as you continue to pay the bills. All of them. His purpose was all as sucker. And in payment, he could do nothing right. That is a common theme among men.

And much of that is because all the shows that dimestore analyze relationships are geared towards womans perspectives. So, men are always at fault. This was admitted to by many pop psychologists in the eighties.

[houstonintc]

209. Careful... they might unleash the shaming...

Pointing out the male perspective on this is liable to get shaming language dumped on you.

[Teaser]

201. clueless pop psychology

Who says 20/30 year olds are angry?

I'm not angry.

I'm just trying to enjoy life and live up to various responsibilities I've shouldered. Aren't most people?

[tjwash]

204. LOL...

“Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you."

Sounds like this guys mom had to have an extra door put in to their basement for the long string of women that must be lining up to snag this catch. :rofl:

He probably had a date once, but his hand got jealous, and is back to his steady girlfriend by the name of rosy-palm.

[MellowDem]

206. I'm in the demographic the article is about...

and in my experience, it's more apathy and cynicsm than anger. Anger was for those men that couldn't stand their privileges being taken away, think the 50s. Looks like there were some real angry men then. Now, I don't know any peer who thinks we should go back to the way before or that women are not "equal" to men, but I do see a general apathy and cynicism about it.

Perhaps the biggest factor is the ambiguous nature of identity and life nowadays for some in my generation. Back in the day, social roles were much stricter and more clearly defiend, and you had a lot of socially imposed motivation to fulfill your role. That wasn't always good, but the opposite isn't exactly dandy all the time. When you don't know what you want out of life, you don't have any real motivation, and it can make a relationship a hard thing as well, where neither person is sure of their role in the relationship or if their lives are heading in the same direction. The social roles of the past helped create stability for relationships in a way, not in a good way per se of course, and it had its own consequences.

Really, if you have a clear goal and direction in life, one that you are not willing to compromise on too much, that brings a sort of expectation and stability to any partner you have a relationship with. Doesn't mean it will work out, but at least there is an idea of where it is going.

I don't think women are immune from this either though. I think women in my generation have the same problem really. And I have a hard time seeing women as any more "adult" in my age group, at least in my experience.

There is of course a sort of left-over legacy of the old social roles still at play that can certainly favor a woman in a relationship, the old "have my cake and eat it too" of equality combined with male subservience financially. And it is a sort of awkard gray area right now in terms of defining new roles. Some women love having doors opened for them; others are offended. Personally, a girl who doesn't take any of the rituals surrounding dating too seriously is a keeper in my book, as those don't really mean much IMHO. And I think that each person should pay according to their ability. So if the woman makes more, then maybe she should pay a little more often. Makes sense to me. Or just pay for yourself when you go out. Course, that's always hard to do, since everywhere you go the waiter will give one check to a couple it seems, leading to the "awkard" stage again. So I would just pay every other meal basically.

[seabeyond]

215. i like your post. i think it is a very tough time too.

and without throwing baby out with the bathwater, the past there was a lot of good as it was set up.... along with the not so good.

back lack of defining line is good.

i am done, lol, not a part of it. wish all you the best of luck in this endeavor, really. i really agree that "if you have a clear goal and direction in life," is such an advantage and is the grown up part of it. i know this cause my generation was the first in taking adulthood to a much later years... i didnt feel like an adult until at least 28. i played prior...

[Pacifist Patriot]

219. Love your response. I teach a marriage preparation class...

and gender differences and role expectations are a big part of it.

[Macoy51]

240. Not Really Angry, Just Not Interested

I do not see this as men being angry as much as men just opting out of long term relationships. When it comes to a committed relationship, some men look at the cost vs. benefit of what a woman offers and just go “muh, no thanks.“


Macoy

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

223. Honest to goodness, this is what my friend posted. This is awesome!

(I posted this yesterday in another thread. You may disagree, but I think it's precious.)
:rofl:


..she's 21 and from Baton Rouge.

I put the "Why are men so angry?" article out on a forum we chat on, and here is her response.

Ahem... woman here. This is my opinion on this. Some women (especially feminists) may disagree, but I was raised in the South, and this is what I believe.

I EXPECT a man to pursue me. I am not calling, initiating any contact or asking men out (or should I say boys because they are who I encounter while in college). As a women, I should not have to pursue a man. It makes me feel un-feminine and less desirable if I am chasing a man, and it makes me feel desired if the man is taking the initiative to contact me. It is a woman's job to express interest and a man's duty to pursue. Men ought to be ashamed of themselves if they expect a woman to pursue them. It is ingrained in the male DNA (basically) to pursue and "hunt". I would surmise that when a man sees a woman he's attracted to and he is able to "get" her, it makes him feel like THE man. If I'm doing all the convo-initiating, I assume the guy just isn't that into me.

Here's a recent example. This guy asked me out and we met at a coffee shop and both had chai lattes. After the date, he told me I could call him if I wanted to hang out. He never heard from me. If this man really was interested in me and wanted to do something, he'd call, which he didn't. I'm not chasing any man. I don't believe in this "21st century woman" and the gender role reversals. I expect a man to be a man and a woman to be a woman.

I don't mind paying for dates from time to time.

I should add, I told her that nothing has changed in 20 years when I was her age, and that it is not regional, since I've only lived in the West and Midwest. I dated women like this. I almost married one. The women who are posting in this thread are liberal and strong feminists, so it's not a great sample.

[lumberjack_jeff]

234. What's intriguing to me is the expectation that this passive-agression should translate to equa pay.

If it "is ingrained into the male DNA to hunt", and it is demeaning to women to do anything other than sit back and consider offers, then it seems reasonable to me that this should translate into different work success.

It isn't equality, but it is reflective of the general attitudes toward dating.

People don't really want equality.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

227. I asked my man out for our 1st date and to marry too...that was in 71 and we are still together

[demwing]

237. Why are ____ so damn ____?

It's because they're all so ____!

[pitohui]

241. who cares if they're angry?

if certain young men really think young women are equal and have equal pay/opportunities, there's something seriously wrong with their powers of observation, and i'm not really interested in the opinions of stupid people

intelligent young men with eyes in their head -- hell, anybody with eyes in their head -- can see that women don't have equal rights or equal chances or equal pay and, since the struggle for women's rights has failed so terribly, young women often have to accept that their best chance of earning money is by catching a man with money, if you want to call it being a gold-digger, whatever, they're just doing the math

women SHOULD be angry that it's 2011 and american women don't have equal rights under our fucking constitution, much less equal opportunities in the real world, but they have accepted reality and decided that they've got to use their youth while they have it, since getting an education just gets them the same pay as a guy with a high school education (and a lot more debt)

women didn't make the system, they're just trying to survive in a system that's cruel

any man who expects me to pay my way on a "date" when i have a fraction of the chances and earning opportunities that he has is a selfish beast and is rightfully rejected by the woman -- guys NEVER treat a woman better than they do in the early days, if he's cheap and hateful and trying to be a user on a first day, run for your life, it will never get any better

these "angry" men sound like they know more about life from teevee than from actual experience, yes, women are equal on teevee and have all these great jobs, but get out of your mom's basement and see how many women hold these jobs in the real world -- women are supposed to work, carry a baby for 9 months, raise the child alone, AND pay for the man's dinner date too? in that case, stop searching for love among intelligent women and start looking for mentally ill/incredibly stupid women because that's the only kind that is going to take on a grown man to raise

[Shandris]

242. Interesting.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2010-09-01-single-women_N.htm

QUOTE: these "angry" men sound like they know more about life from teevee than from actual experience, yes, women are equal on teevee and have all these great jobs, but get out of your mom's basement and see how many women hold these jobs in the real world -- women are supposed to work, carry a baby for 9 months, raise the child alone, AND pay for the man's dinner date too? in that case, stop searching for love among intelligent women and start looking for mentally ill/incredibly stupid women because that's the only kind that is going to take on a grown man to raise

So paying for a man's meal is 'raising' him? Yet you think that the angry young men are wrong and only get their information from TV, huh. Pot, kettle.

Also, in what world is it a 'womans responsibility' to 'work, carry a baby for 9 months, and raise the child alone'?

You sound like a good example of why so many are bitter.

[lukasahero]

244. Great link

Here's the real crux of the information in that link though: "It isn't true for all women in their 20s working full time — overall, they earn 90% of what all men in their 20s make — just for those who don't marry or have kids."

I guess it's more exciting to jump up and down about some women, a very specific and limited group, actually make more than men than it is to admit that most women still earn less.

[Macoy51]

243. Man as an ATM??

“if he's cheap and hateful and trying to be a user on a first day, run for your life, it will never get any better”

Pitohui


Lol and that is a quote from a woman who looks on a man as an ATM. Some men feel that if she’s cheap and hateful and trying to be a user on the first day, he should run for his life, because she will never get any better.

On a side note, I guess being a single dad who works and has sole custody of my three kids means I can expect the woman to pick up the dinner check for me? lol

Macoy

[SoCalDem]

245. Many young people are angry,....men and women

There are no "rules" anymore.

Young people have always been dissatisfied, and that;s what youth is all about. Young people have to have a REASON to leave the nest, and strike out on their own, but until fairly recently, there were basic "rules" that pretty much everyone knew. Those rules could get tweaked a bit here and there during one's young years, but as we aged, we still knew the rules were there, for us to follow, like a roadmap.

If we played the "game" by the rules, there would be a pay-off for us.

That no longer applies..

When I was young, I knew NO ONE under 35 who had debt, and those who did (the 35+ers) had debt because of a family car they needed all of a sudden, or maybe they had saved up & bought a house..

These days, teenagers can easily rack up massive debts.

Young people with college debt or credit card debt, stay in a "kid-like" atmosphere, at home with Mom & Dad , out of necessity..and do it for far too long.

The older you get, the harder it gets to "find someone".

My middle son found this out.. He's our only bachelor, and for years he dated women his own age, but as he got older (he's now 33), he found that he wanted to date women his own age, but every year older he got, the more difficult if was to find a woman without kids, ex-husbands, debts & drama, and he was tired of "teenyboppers" (his term..not mine)

He quit dating at all after a particularly bitter breakup , and now has found "the one"..a 30 yr old single teacher, but of course she was laid off and he's struggling too, so they are waiting to get married. They each have their own place and roommates. They cannot even afford to live together.. (He has 2 roommates & she has 3).

I think everyone feels alone these days, and may even miss a time when there were some givens..

[seabeyond]

246. good post. nt

[raccoon]

247. Great post. I think some people do miss a time when there were some givens.

In a way, it's reassuring to know just what's expected of you, even if it can be limiting.

[seabeyond]

248. i found this from the time the boys were little. i had others close to me that didnt give the kids

boundaries and those kids spinning out of control. i watch with my own little ones how instead of rejecting the boundaries, felt safe and secure in them. taught me a huge lesson. i see it as they are older. in a chaotic world, in our house, we hold to what worked in the past and keep our eye on that.... no need to throw baby out with the bath water.

[mikeytherat]

249. Mrs. Rat and I married in our early 20s. Bought real estate, combined assets, worked as partners.

20+ years later and we're still married, still combining assets, still working as partners, and still happy.

mikey_the_rat

[CreekDog]

250. awful article and screed against women

i dare say if you replaced "women" in the article with "Obama" it would have been locked long ago.

that's my understanding of the rules.

[WCGreen]

251. Guys who live the life of a TV commercial are threatened...

Real men see it as an opportunity to share the burden and so lessen the stress...

[seabeyond]

258. Real men see it as an opportunity to share the burden and so lessen the stress...

wc, you are so right on. exactly. thanks.

[Arkana]

254. Next she'll be hawking the Ladder Theory.

[GSLevel9]

255. great read... nt

[PatrickS]

257. The Myth of Heterosexuality

This endless "battle of the sexes" argument proves that heterosexuality is a myth; outside of procreation, which is almost obsolete these days with sperm donors and gestational carriers, men and women have very little interest in each other.

Arf!

[seabeyond]

259. what part of this nonfactual proclamation of yours are we suppose to take

seriously

lmfao

[CreekDog]

260. Wait a minute...if men are so angry at *all* women for how some treat them

why on earth would the next woman they meet (assuming it's the kind they *like*), why would such a woman be interested in being with a man who has lumped all women into the same stereotype?

that can't be very attractive.

:shrug:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

261. Young men are scared of women.

When I was trolling for dates fifteen years ago, the guys who were my age (35 to 40) were scared to DEATH of women. I couldn't ask a guy out. If I asked a guy out, he would say no and say he was already dating someone. This happened several times when I bought symphony tickets. One guy who I was interested in sent me a nasty letter on a scrap of torn envelope, telling me to quit "wasting his time" by talking to him.

Then later, I heard that he could not understand why I wasn't talking to him. One of my girlfriends reminded him that he didn't want me to "waste his time" and that's why I didn't talk to him any more. What an idiot.

This asshole had two Bachelor's degreees from Rice University, but was an idiot.

:banghead:


Lots of them are scared to death of marriage and children.

[Jamastiene]

262. This thread is very enlightening.

There are a lot of generalizations and negative stereotypes floating around this thread. Un-fucking-believable. :puke:

[LooseWilly]

264. Wow, this POS thread is still open.

It's like the kudzu thread, just with hate in it.