Before I will consider any arguments from Charter School advocates

[Scuba]

Before I will consider any arguments from Charter School advocates, I want to know how many special ed kids they accept.

Are they taking the little girl with spina bifida?

The little boy with cerebral palsy?

Cognitavely disabled kids?

Learning disabled kids?


If not, get out of my face.


(Original OP was locked by mods. My apologies for abusive language.)

[Starry Messenger]

1. k&r

[City of Mills]

2. Again, are all Charter Schools the same?

Should they all be closed? If a teacher works part-time at Charter School to supplement their part-time public school income, should they half-hated? Or do we just hate the Administration and the teachers are OK?

If a public high school in an urban environment has a high dropout rate, and a charter school is established to help these troubled kids stay in school and earn a HS diploma, then what? Should the Charter School be closed? Should the public HS "absorb" the Charter School?

The point i'm getting at (I suppose) is that Charter Schools have vastly different goals and criteria and all I see here at DU is bashing, yet in my real world experience, I see a lot of good being done at a charter school. I guess I'm kind of conflicted. I'm trying to see the grays in this apparently black and white issue.

[RC]

8. What can charter schools do that public schools cannot do?

Besides make a profit using tax money and suck needed money and classroom space from the public schools.

[alstephenson]

10. Charter schools ARE public schools.

[readmoreoften]

22. KIPP is a public school system? Really? Or does just using our tax money up count now?

[alstephenson]

57. Yes, the KIPP charter schools are PUBLIC schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

Public schools that don't admit all

They sure take all the taxpayers' money, though!

[RC]

76. OK, then - -

How can some school districts permit corporations to manage chains of charter schools?
How can public schools be managed by a for-profit corporation?

[City of Mills]

16. In this case, charter schools can give kids a diploma

After the public HS failed them...in this specific instance.

There seems to be a need this charter school is filling, so...

Should it close?

Should it 'merge' with the high school?

Just wondering what the alternatives are, because the high school doesn't serve the needs of all the students. I don't think its' a funding issue. Maybe in this case it's more of a space issue at the HS, I don't know - the HS is already filled to the max and can't expand outwards since there's no real estate nearby.

All I know is before the charter school opened, if you dropped out you go work an unskilled job (if you could find one) or join a gang and deal drugs for money.

I really don't know what the solution is.

[alstephenson]

58. It's all about choice.

Parents and students should have alternatives. One size does NOT fit all.

[FLyellowdog]

20. Kick out disruptive and/or noncompliant students...

public schools have to serve them in some form. A great deal of valuable teaching time is spent trying to manage difficult students in the public school segment. Funding has been very poor for programs that can successfully work with these at-risk students and apparently, this will only get worse. Public schools are required to address so many issues it's no wonder that student achievement is often less than optimal.

Charter schools in it for the money...simple.

[louis-t]

26. When profit becomes the motive, kids lose.

Do you really think that charter school teacher salaries will stay at $125,000 when public school system is destroyed? Fat chance.

[FLyellowdog]

74. I wouldn't think they'd keep that salary.

At retirement time after 25 years teaching, I was making $42,000 before taxes, retirement, S.S, school medical, etc. I sure could have used $125,000. Maybe then I could have afforded an IRA account.:cry:

Editted to clarify initial tagline.

[hack89]

65. In Rhode Island, all charter schools are non-profit by law

many are formed by teachers and administrators. f

[FLyellowdog]

73. Not a bad idea. Not so here in FL.

[alstephenson]

9. I feel the same way, CofM.

That's a very broad brush stroke being used on charter schools. I, too, know of many excellent non-profit operated charter schools that do a great job of educating at-risk children in low income areas. And they DO accept Special Ed students - in most states you can't pick and choose.

[City of Mills]

21. I'm glad I'm not the only one!

I don't know if defending a specific charter school makes me an 'advocate', I can only go by my own experiences and what I see. I don't doubt some (many? most?) charter schools are operating without the students (or community's) best interest in mind. The broad-brush attacks really confuse me.

And with all the great support public school teachers get, I hate to see charter schools (and by proxy, their teachers) get universally trashed. Too black/white for me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. Good for you

Cause I don't.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. There is a great deal of diversity among charter schools

Some are run by education corps for profit, others by educational pioneers. It really depends on the school.

[City of Mills]

31. That is helpful

There is a distinction, and someone mentioned what a bad idea 'education for profit' is. Hard not to agree with that. My perspective is slanted after seeing the benefits of one of the good schools; every time I see these Charter School threads, I see a lot of bad information flying around.

[DURHAM D]

3. How do you feel about school vouchers?

[Scuba]

5. It costs far more to teach special ed kids. If vouchers could somehow...

...make that an even playing field, I would listen to arguments. Still, I have a hard time with tax dollars going to schools with less oversight, religeous curriculims, etc.

Let's fix the public schools. What's wrong with that?

[DURHAM D]

13. Nothing.

I am against Charter Schools. The first one (plus vouchers) began the destruction of our public schools.

And just for the record, I don't think kids that are home schooled should be allowed to participate in public school activities. The religious right started the whole home schooling movement and I think it should be illegal.

[fedupinBushcountry]

51. No it doesn't

My daughter is a special ed teacher and she gets paid just like any other teacher , no bonus. The good thing is that her job is safe in NYC as they were talking about cutting all teachers with 5 years or less, she has 2 years. I guess somewhere in the law they cannot cut special ed teachers. I'm with you , I am against charter schools as my son says, he is also a teacher, they leave so many behind and only choose who they want, and after the 60 Minutes segment, if my kids were still in school I would not want them to go to charter schools. They all did just fine in public school and 2 out of 3 of them are teachers.

[dsc]

71. actually special ed teachers are often paid via federal money

and that is why they don't get fired in layoffs.

[FLyellowdog]

75. True and not true.

Hiring and firing (or laying off) is done at the local level. If the federal money is paying the salary, the money just leaves. In first hired, first fired situations, the special ed. teachers are treated the same as regular ed teachers. The federal government doesn't do the hiring/firing...just provides money.At least in our district that's what happens.

[LoZoccolo]

4. In your face?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=special+ed+charter+schools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osfEQTR-45M

[Phentex]

15. I freakin' love that!

:)

[JuniperLea]

6. Yes, actually, they do...

http://www.uscharterschools.org/cs/spedp/print/uscs_docs/spedp/home.htm

The first charter school I ever saw in So Cal was a special needs school, FWIW.

[valerief]

7. Charter schools plunder the Treasury. nt

[JuniperLea]

12. Goalpost moving should require an new OP... eom

[Scuba]

17. Please explain. I'm not familiar with "goalpost moving".

[readmoreoften]

25. Don't worry, neither is she.

[JuniperLea]

27. When the goal in an argument is moved...

The goal of the OP is to prove (or not) that charter schools are provided for kids with special education needs. We've shown here that they do indeed provide such things. The poster is now chasing another goal... a financial one.

The goal post was moved, meaning, the goal itself has been changed.

[readmoreoften]

24. Don't use terminology that you don't understand.

There is no "goalpost moving" in that comment.

[readmoreoften]

23. +1

[Ikonoklast]

72. Using the same logic, so do public schools.

And the discussion was about special needs students, not finance.

Goalposts were definitely moved in an attempt to derail the conversation.

[valerief]

77. Public schools are not for-profit like charter schools. nt

[Ian David]

11. In my area, troubled kids who are under-served by public schools are the primary focus...

... of many charter schools.

Although this is not typical of most other states.

[RebelOne]

14. My daughter teaches at a charter school

in South Florida. Other than that, I do not know that much about these schools But she is very happy teaching there. She has to handle a bunch of middle school students. I couldn't do, so I give her a lot of credit.

[JuniperLea]

28. I bet she doesn't make $125,000 a year either...

This is a very common lie we hear in opposition to charter schools.

[Phentex]

18. Not an advocate but the answer is 8%, state average is 12%...

they have to accept them if it is the local public school where all residents are accepted.

I AM A PUBLIC SCHOOL ADVOCATE! I will rub noses with you.

[blondeatlast]

19. Amen, brother--and no one has responded with anything verifiable yet.

I'll be surprised if anyone does, too.

[Starry Messenger]

29. An hour has passed....

and nope.

[City of Mills]

32. Answering the OP's question would violate FERPA laws

So I doubt it gets answered :)

[Scuba]

34. These are yes/no questions. How does that violate FERPA?

[City of Mills]

37. OK, let me try

Before I will consider any arguments from Charter School advocates, I want to know how many special ed kids they accept.

Are they taking the little girl with spina bifida?

Yes

The little boy with cerebral palsy?

Yes

Cognitavely disabled kids?

Yes

Learning disabled kids?

Yes

[blondeatlast]

35. I didn't see the OP specify names be made public--statistics will do just fine--

so cough 'em up or I'm saying what I already know--charters are perfectly free to discriminate while utilizing my tax dollars.

[Phentex]

40. 8% of a local public charter is special ed...

the answer is yes, some charter schools are places where special needs kids may attend, without fees or lottery.

[City of Mills]

44. Statistics from what? One school? City? County? State? All Combined?

If I show you statistics for one school, what difference does it make? Then the argument would be that "it's not representative of the majority of charter schools".

Did you know if the charter school in my city closed, teachers would be out of work. I'm sure that would make some conservative tax payers happy. And I'm not talking the $125,000/yr teachers, like some people have been claiming around here.

Have you ever been in a charter school? Worked in one? I have.

I can give you my opinion and experiences, but you'll have to give me some time to dig up statistics...maybe I can ask the principal.

In the meantime I will continue to advocate for the local charter school, I think they are doing good work.

[Phentex]

45. I answered for one but the google post (in your face) had many...

links to specific schools as well.

[City of Mills]

49. Thanks, and I saw your other post

And agree, it seems like all charter schools get lumped into this debate (whenever it comes up) and I have a problem with it. There's plenty of good examples, and plenty of bad schools too.

[blondeatlast]

48. Here's something that won't violate any laws--is this charter receiving taxpayer money?

Pretty simple question--and 100% legal.

[City of Mills]

52. The one I'm talking about? Yes, it receives taxpayer money as a public school

It is open to any state resident between 16-21, with first preference going to my city's residents. This is because they welcome students from the surrounding suburbs who drop out of HS and have nowhere else to go. Without the charter, these kids would be working menial jobs or running around with gangs.

[hack89]

64. Check out the laws governing education in Rhode Island

because charter schools are public schools there are no exemptions to state education laws. Charter schools have to specifically address how they will teach kids with special needs.

[Snoutport]

33. I just got home from a long day in my special ed class....

and I was TOTALLY ok with your language. I agreed 100%!!!!

[The Straight Story]

36. One article - may not be totally up to charter schools

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6878351.html

and before anyone says 'this is just one area/district' I would say 'yeah, that is the point - not all public schools are the same, and not all charters are either'

[Phentex]

42. that is the point...

they are not all the same but for argument's sake they do get lumped together. And I say this as a public school advocate.

[The Straight Story]

38. Here is another article:

http://www.spectrumcharterschool.org/index.php?pr=Child_Find_Information

Special Education Programs

Spectrum Charter School provides a free, appropriate, public education and least restrictive environment to exceptional students. To qualify as an exceptional student, the child must be of school age, must be in need of specially designed instruction, and must meet eligibility requirements for one or more of the following physical or mental disabilities, as set forth in Pennsylvania State Standards: autism/pervasive developmental disorder, deaf-blindness blindness/visual impairment, deafness/ hearing impairment, mental retardation, multiple disabilities, neurological impairment, orthopedic impairment, traumatic brain injury, other health impairment, emotional disturbance, specific learning disability, and speech/language impairment.

Services designed to meet the needs of exceptional students include the annual development of an IEP and a re-evaluation as mandated. The IEP Team will consider a student's learning needs when assigning the student to one of the following instructional groupings: autistic support, blind/visually impaired support, deaf/hearing impairment support, emotional support, learning support, life skills support, multiple disabilities support, physical support, and speech and language support. The extent of special education services and the location of delivery of such services are determined by the parents and staff at the IEP meeting and is based on the student's identified needs and abilities, chronological age, and the intensity of the specific intervention. Spectrum Charter School provides a range of services as appropriate.

Spectrum Charter School does not discriminate on the basis of age, race, color, national or ethnic origin, gender or handicap in employment practices or in the administration of any of their educational programs and activities in accordance with applicable federal statutes and regulations.

[The Straight Story]

39. Here are some numbers for one area (% in charters less than public here)

Number of Disabled Students at Little Rock Charter Schools
DateTuesday, February 2, 2010

In reading this story about New Orleans Charter Schools avoiding enrollment of disabled students, I started wondering about the percentages in Arkansas charter schools. The average percentage of disabled students in Arkansas is 12.03% in 2008-2009. (I am not looking at preschool students in this total.) I then looked at the ADE report on special education to calculate these percentages.

2008-2009 School Year

Academics Plus,403 students, 0% disabled students

Arkansas Virtual Academy, 501 students, 9% disabled

Covenant Keepers, 121 students, 5% disabled

Dreamland Academy, 325 students, 3% disabled

Estem Schools, 895 students, 2% disabled

Lisa Academy, 433 students, 3% disabled

Lisa Academy North, 294 students, 1% disabled

http://www.eyecontactarkansas.org/main/number-of-disabled-students-at-little-rock-charter-schools.html

[Scuba]

43. Thanks for posting. Sounds like Arkansas public schools...

...are getting screwed, unless there's some financial compensation to keep them whole.

[bvar22]

41. NO Taxpayer Money for Private (Charter) Schools,

I'm OK with Private/Charter schools as long as they don't receive one dime of Taxpayer Money,
this includes Voucher scams.
The USA already has a Public Education System funded by Taxpayer Money.
If there is a problem with Public Schools, fix it.

Things that should NEVER receive Public Money:

*Private (Charter) Schools

*Anything "Faith Based".

*Armed Military Contractors (Mercenaries)

*Private Intelligence Gathering Agencies

*Private Police or Security Agencies

*Private Prisons

*Health Insurance Corporations

As long as Charter (Private) Schools are supported by private funding sources,
I have no problems.



Who will STAND UP and represent THIS American Majority?
Platitudes, Rhetoric, Empty Promises, and Excuses are meaningless now.

"By their WORKS you will know them,"
And by their WORKS they will be held accountable.

[blondeatlast]

46. What the masked guy said! /\

:thumbsup:

[alstephenson]

59. Sorry, but charter schools are NOT private schools.

They are public schools. Period.

[fascisthunter]

60. No THEY ARE NOT..period

[bvar22]

62. They are NOT "Public Schools".

They are in competition with the "Public Schools" for Tax Payer Money.
Period.

If you want a Charter/Private School,
fund it with Private Money.

[alstephenson]

67. I guess you don't know what a public school is.

But don't let that stop you.

[blondeatlast]

68. Not in Arizona; they receive a boatload of my tax money and I don't approve of it. nt

[noamnety]

47. We've taken kids who spent K-8

in self-contained classrooms.

Now in return, I would like to know from those opposed to public noncorporate charters if they can explain why a student who can only afford to live in a poverty-stricken neighborhood isn't entitled to the same education as a rich kid living in Grosse Pointe or Bloomfield Hills.

[Nevernose]

50. Not to mention the ones who are just plain old behavioral issues

Also, there's the behavior disorders. That's how my daughter's school works. It's a specialized magnet -- so no kids from the neighborhood, just carefully screened applicants. At the first sign of bad grades or bad behavior,out the door they go. And then their backers have the temerity to brag about their test scores...

[grahamhgreen]

53. Kick

[rucky]

54. The charter I taught at accepted a large amount of special ed + IEP kids.

Mainly because they received more federal money if they did. Of course, the money is supposed to go to accommodations to the students, but it really didn't so much.

[pintobean]

55. It takes some pretty thin skin to think

that message board postings are in your face.

[mstinamotorcity]

56. They will find a way to tap

into that little resource. the government spends more on special needs pupils. This will be the next target again.They have tapped into their programs before. This is a way to de-value the public school system to its lowest. and they have plenty of help.They want the teachers union busted so they can dismantle public education altogether. anyone who doesn't see this is well handicapped.

[mia]

61. Florida has the McKay Scholarships for Students with Disabilities Program

http://www.floridaschoolchoice.org/Information/McKay/faqs.asp

The McKay Scholarships for Students with Disabilities Program expands statewide the school choice program originally created in 1999 as a pilot program. The scholarships are available for eligible students with disabilities to attend an eligible public or private school of their choice. Students with disabilities include K-12 students who are documented as having an intellectual disability; a speech or language impairment; a hearing impairment, including deafness; a visual impairment, including blindness; a dual sensory impairment; an emotional or behavioral disability; a specific learning disability, including, but not limited to, dyslexia, dyscalculia,or developmental aphasia; a traumatic brain injury; a developmental delay; or autism spectrum disorder.

[hack89]

63. In Rhode Island they would - because charter schools are public schools.

there is only one set of rules concerning special ed in Rhode Island. Their charter application has to specifically address the issue.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. In this area, most of them - no. A few - yes, until they get kicked out.

[blondeatlast]

69. "Kicked out" being the operative phrase--at the first sign of trouble,

bye-bye Sweet Sarah with the hyperactivity problem...