FLASH: Fire breaks out at Japan Fukushima Daiichi No. 4 reactor -NHK quotes Tokyo Electric Power

[Poll_Blind]

Just coming across the Reuters twitter feed.

And from another feed:
TEPCO reports flames seen coming from #Fukushima Daiichi unit 4 at 5:45 am local time.

PB

[Renew Deal]

1. And american soldiers are part of the firefighting squad

I hope they're safe.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x653986

[Tesha]

31. They're not (safe).

But it's more meaningful work than blowing
people up.

Tesha

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Have we now officially entered the OH SHIT territory?

or are we still in the bunnies are great territory?

:hi:

[Poll_Blind]

3. Phsaw- this is nothing! I just learned about potential Fission Criticality in...

...dry spent fuel containers. It's my new "worst worst worst possible case" of the hour.

PB

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. So we are still in bunny stage

There, get some bunnies

[drm604]

9. "Fission Criticality"

Please tell me that term doesn't mean what I think it means. :nuke:

[Poll_Blind]

10. Yep, it totally means what you think it means. This is actually a serious possibility x 3.

Sorry.

PB

[drm604]

20. Do you have a cite for that?

I don't mean to doubt you but I've always been told that that is an impossibility with nuclear electric plants. Of course we've been seeing a lot of things lately that weren't supposed to be able to happen.

[Poll_Blind]

26. Here from a place called DC Buearu:

Fission Criticality In Cooling Ponds Threaten Explosion At Fukushima

PB

[Statistical]

32. That is about cooling ponds. You claimed dry storage fuel can achieve criticality.

Do you have a link/cite?

Good cite about the risk of criticality in a cooling pond.

However this is a fabrication
"The problem is if the spent fuel gets too close, they will produce a fission reaction and explode with a force much larger than any fission bomb given the total amount of fuel on the site. All the fuel in all the reactors and all the storage pools at this site (1760 tons of Uranium per slide #4) would be consumed in such a mega-explosion. In comparison, Fat Man and Little Boy weapons dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki contained less than a hundred pounds each of fissile material."

Criticality doesn't produce a nuclear bomb. You need a super critical mass. That would require an implosion device to compress the fissile material making it more dense and go super critical. Also the enrichment levels of nuclear fuel make super criticality impossible. It requires weapons grade material. This combination of implossion and weapons grade material is why it has been so difficult for countries to build nuclear weapons.

[drm604]

48. That's what I thought.

I'm glad to see someone else agrees.

[Poll_Blind]

49. I'm trying to see what I wrote that made you think that. What I'm referring to is...

...Criticality accident. I did not mean to imply anything about dry storage which, as I understand it, is a disposition of fuel rods after they have spent whatever length of time is necessary in the storage pool above the reactor (with the rest of the spent fuel rods) to reach a lowered level of radioactivity which would allow them to then be put in "dry" storage.

I'm talking purely about the "wet" storage in the pools in situations where the pools have boiled off and the rods have been pushed together.

PB

[Statistical]

54. Maybe a typo but you used the word dry which was confusing.

" I just learned about potential Fission Criticality in dry spent fuel containers"

Cooling Pond.



Dry Storage

[Poll_Blind]

58. Oh, sorry- I was talking about "wet" spent fuel containers above the reactor having their...

...water boil off (i.e. go "dry") As far as I know, what they call "dry" storage is not near enough to the plant to be considered part of the problem, plus, they should be much less radioactive before going into that "dry" storage. At least that is how I understand it.

Pretty much everything over the last few days have been things running out of water to cool them down- I didn't even think about how it might sound in another context.

PB

[Statistical]

59. np. I knew of prompt criticality in cooling pond but had never heard of dry criticality.

See neutrons coming off split uranium are "too fast" (called fast neutrons). They can't fission other uranium they just bounce off. Something needs to slow them down (called thermal neutrons). Water is a moderator. Anytime you have fissile material and water you have the potential for criticality.

[drm604]

41. I just don't know how to judge that article.

What they're saying is terrifying but I am in no way qualified to judge it's veracity.

Also, I'm not familiar with that website so I have no idea how trustworthy it is.

[jpak]

28. It means that the fuel has re-established an *uncontrolled* chain reaction and will heat up

and release very large quantities of radioactive materials as the fuel pellet cladding fails.

positive feed-back loop

not good

[drm604]

47. According to the article that Poll_Blind linked to

it means a fission explosion - like an atom bomb. I just don't know what to make of that article. I have no idea if it's facts or conclusions are correct.

[Poll_Blind]

52. NO, it does not mean a fission bomb. Please see this Wiki page to understand criticality:

Criticality

Nuclear bombs don't blow up like that. You can't just stack radioactive material together and make a nuclear bomb. But if enough of this spent fuel comes in contact it can produce an extremely radioactive, extremely hot mass which could likely eat down just like a core.

PB

[drm604]

74. I understand all that.

You're the one who pointed to that article. I was just saying that that is what that article is claiming. It used the term "fission explosion". I think it's wrong for the reasons you say.

[jpak]

61. It doesn't have the concentration of uranium to do that

Weapons grade U is >90% 235-U

Fresh un-irradiated light water reactor fuel is only 2-4% 235-U - and spent fuel has fission poisons that would inhibit rapid fission reactions.

That said - if damaged fuel assemblies/pellets accumulate on the base of the pool, they could re-establish criticality and cause a steam explosion that would scatter shit all over.

[drm604]

76. I know that.

That's why I questioned the article. I didn't find it believable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. No, it meansa the reaction is ongoing

that happens in the reactor, but the GEOMETRY is not there to reach critical mass for a nuclear bomb.

This does not mean is good by any stretch ok, but having a mushroom cloud is not in the cards

[drm604]

77. I didn't think that could possibly be the case.

But that's what I took the article to be saying and I assumed it was nonsense.

[drm604]

5. I think the current territory is

"flaming radioactive bunnies are great. Even though they're on fire, they're still hopping around (sort of) because, don't you know, they were designed so super-duper perfectly."

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Ah this

[Lastactiongyro]

15. Zombie Mutant Flaming Vorpal Bunnies

...Sigh, think it's going to get alot worse.

Time to break out that old movie "On The beach"

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. But, but it is cute

[Lastactiongyro]

19. True :)

[Lastactiongyro]

23. Starting to long for the good, old days like...Katrina

[Poll_Blind]

35. +1

:cry:

PB

[Tesha]

37. Lemme know when the Coke bottle starts sending Republican campaign adverts.

(You know: meaningless gibberish.)

Tesha

[Tx4obama]

6. We've been in the OH SHIT territory the past few days haven't we? n/t

[Lastactiongyro]

18. about ten hours in, yeah...getting a real bad feeling

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Not from the happy tappy bunny brigade

I wonder what the spin will be later today?

[sixmile]

7. They're baffling us with bullshit

This is a coverup and dangerous distortion of facts on an unprecedented scale. Don't ask me to prove it. the facts will come out.

[suffragette]

8. Damn, just DAMN.

On edit, France24's live blog has it via AP as well:

http://www.france24.com/en/20110315-japan-live-blogging-stocks-radiation-nuclear-meltdown-fukushima-reactor

Japan's government says flames are rising from reactor at Dai-Ichi nuclear plant, AP reports

[Raschel]

14. Didn't mean to copy you, those words are all I had.

[suffragette]

29. .

:hug:

[Raschel]

11. Horrible, just horrible.

[Jersey Devil]

12. NHK says "they have reported it (the fire) to the fire department"

What?

[Poll_Blind]

16. I know, I caught that too and was like..."What?"

PB

[Cali_Democrat]

22. You would think that the fire department would already be on hand.

Along with nuclear experts.

[Lastactiongyro]

24. All depends how close you can get

[drm604]

25. "Hello, is this 911"?

I'm guessing that's the result of a translation problem.

[thewiseguy]

42. And I am sure those guys will be there with there soon to put it out!

:wtf:

Like how did that phone call go...Hey we have fire in our spent nuclear fuel pool. Please come and put it out. Thanks!

[Junkdrawer]

62. For shits and grins, google Browns Ferry Station....

and read who put out the fire at that nuclear plant.

[WilliamPitt]

27. Jesus fucking Christ

Aftershock near Mt. Fuji.

Last time Fuji erupted was after an 8.6 quake.

Christ.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

30. I was thinking about that after the quake this morning.

:( All they need now is for Fuji to wake up because of all the sesmic activity. :scary:

[WilliamPitt]

33. Last time was more than 200 years ago

but it was a chilling report nonetheless.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. A little more detail from AJe

(All times are local in Japan GMT+9)

7:05am
Al Jazeera's Steve Chao, reporting from Akita, tells us:

A fire has once again broken out at the No.4 reactor at Fukushima - the reactor that has been responsible for pumping out the high levels of radioactivity, which prompted government to issue that warning for those within 30km to stay indoors.

Yesterday, Tepco asked US military officials for help putting out that fire - we're not sure how they're going to put this fire out.

Yesterday, we heard from Prime Minister Naoto Kan, who we're told believed Tepco was hiding information from state officials, and there's a concern among people that they're not being told the full truth about what's going on.

It is of critical concern.

There's concern here as well that the nuclear fallout may reach here, on the other side of Japan. Everyone is watching wind directions. At the moment, it is blowing out to the east, to the sea - but if it blows south, Tokyo is just 250km away.

[Poll_Blind]

36. Thank you for the update!

PB

[flamingdem]

44. I read that US fire fighters came to the plant w trucks and were turned away

no confirmation on that to be found however

[Poll_Blind]

38. TEPCO, via NHK, confirming new fire near fuel storage at cold Unit 4, can't be approached due to rad

Tweeted, I cannot confirm:
TEPCO, via NHK, confirming new fire near fuel storage at cold Unit 4, can't be approached due to rad levels

[flamingdem]

40. This is what I am deducing, no way to cool off the fuel pool nt

[flamingdem]

39. ON CENK NOW - expert saying that the fuel pool issue is as bad as core issue

and that more could be hurt via contamination than Chernobyl.

32 million people live in Tokyo

[Poll_Blind]

43. Don't know about Chernobyl comparison but spent fuel concerns me far more than the cores.

The spent fuel containers have the equivalent of multiple cores, in each of the containers above the reactors.

Again, the nuclear plant below has just one core's worth of rods. The spent fuel containers contain the equivalent of multiple cores.

PB

[Jersey Devil]

46. 20 years worth of cores according to what I read

I have no idea how often the rods are changed, but if we knew that we would know about how many cores of spend fuel are up there.

[Statistical]

57. 3-5 day years depending on the burnup. So 4 to 7 cores worth.

Chernobyl was roughly twice as big (1000MW vs 480MW) so ballpark it is roughly 2x to 4x Chernobyl if they lose control of it.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

45. There's an 8 meter wide hole on that building's side -

where the spent rod pool is. The spent rods are heating up and causing a fire -- and I have no doubt it is all being vented right out the side of the building causing the high radiation readings. :(

[thereismore]

79. I think you are right. They need to get water in that hole pronto. nt

[jannyk]

50. BBC: 5&6 also believed heating up

#
2216: The BBC's Matt Frei in Tokyo says spent fuel rods in reactors five and six are also now believed to be heating up.

[k2qb3]

51. If they can't get that fire out things are going to go downhill very fast....

I was very surprised yesterday when they managed to get it out right after they announced it and then we heard very little more about it...

The fire yesterday is what created the big jump in radiation and the worry about contamination spreading (the stay inside advice)

It's been burning for two hours now, there isn't anything flammable in there except the fuel and the hydrogen it produces when it's overheated.

They say they can't get close enough to see what's going on, if the fuel is burning it will make operations impossible in the plant, things go downhill very rapidly at that point.

If the spent fuel is on fire it's considerably worse than a core meltdown, it's completely uncontained once it's dry.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

55. Yes, that is what is scary --

it only has a single containment system and one of the containment walls has a 8 meter wide hole in it and, from what Will Pitt is saying in another thread, another wall is on fire. That means the potential for burning rods venting directly to the outdoors. :(

[jannyk]

53. BBC: Fire at #4 is in outer housing

#
2235: Tepco spokesman Hajimi Motujuku says the fire at reactor four is in the outer housing of the containment vessel. Its cause is not yet known, AP reports.

#
2237: A reminder that reactor four was not in operation at the time the earthquake struck, but was being used to store spent fuel rods.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

[Hell Hath No Fury]

56. "...the outer housing of the containment vessel.;

which is where the spend fuel rod pool is. :(

[Hannah Bell]

63. can you point that out on the diagram? it was

my impression that the outer housing on the "4th floor" would be the blowout wall area, maybe i'm wrong, trying to follow like eveyrone else.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

66. NHK had a guy on with a diagram on cardboard --

right after this latest news broke. It was hard to see exactly where he was saying the wall blowout was -- he pointed to an area just a little above the midpoint of the building. It left me with the impression it was either at the pool level or damned close.

[Hannah Bell]

69. ok, i'll await further confirmation.

[jannyk]

60. BBC: Original Fire @ #4 never fully out

#
2249: Officials at the plant say the new fire broke out because the initial blaze had not been extinguished, AP reports.

#
2246: Japanese news agency Kyodo reports that the storage pool in reactor four - where the spent fuel rods are kept - may be boiling. Tepco says readings are showing high levels of radiation in the building, so it is inaccessible. Radiation levels had fallen late on Tuesday but remained abnormal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

[suffragette]

65. More from BBC - "under control" "gone out on its own"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
2327: Minoru Ogoda, a spokesman for the Japanese nuclear safety agency, tells AFP: "We have received information from that the fire and smoke is now invisible and it appears to have gone out of its own accord." An explosion on Tuesday morning damaged reactor 4's building and sparked a fire in its spent fuel storage pond. The reactor had been shut down before Friday's earthquake for maintenance, but its spent nuclear fuel rods were stored on the site.
2320: The Japanese government is now saying the fire in reactor 4 is "under control", according to the AFP news agency.
2314: A spokesman for the Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) has said: "At around 0545 today, our employee carrying batteries to the control room discovered smoke billowing from the building of reactor 4 ."

[Poll_Blind]

67. Thank you for the update!

PB

[suffragette]

70. Not too reassuring though, is it?

They need to look in every nook and cranny to ensure it's really all the way out this time, but that's likely hard to do when radiation seems to rise each time.

They sound stretched thin, that someone only noticed it as they happened to walk by. Good that he did, but clearly need more monitoring on-scene.

[Poll_Blind]

71. Well, I got a clue about their ability to inspect the site because literally within....

...minutes of the sun rising in Japan (within 10 minutes, IIRC) news came out from Reuters that there was a crack in the roof of No. 4. So that would lead me to believe they probably don't have the air filled with throwaway drones, which IMO, they should be doing right now. Anything they can strap a video camera to, even if the vehicles are $10,000 a pop. Hundreds of millions of people's well-being depends on knowing what is going on in there.

Honestly, I keep wondering why they don't seem to have more remotely-operated aerial vehicles operating in some capacity- again, even if they ditch them instead of bringing them back.

I get the feeling there is some strange communication issue between those at the plant and TEPCO or that the people on-site are holed up in such a way that they really don't have much of an idea what's going on.

It also occurred to me, based on some of the radiation readings at the plant that the majority of the folks who remain may have received a fatal dose (check out the time between 2am and 5am- those are not micro/millisieverts, those appear to be sieverts- search for "912μSv" to see the high-water mark) and they could be dying in the control room or wherever they are right now.

I don't mean to be pessimistic but that seemed like it might be a reality. The only good thing, seemingly, is that 2 people were reported missing so presumably they've got it together enough to keep a headcount going.

PB

[suffragette]

72. Your post is packed with important info

1) Hmm, we have unmanned drones. I'd rather see them there helping in Japan.

2) The funny u-like symbol looks like micro-sievert to me, but I'm still learning all this.
Found a table. Tell me what you think.

http://www.rpii.ie/Your-Health/Health-Risk.aspx

The sievert is a large unit, and in practice it is more usual to measure radiation doses received by individuals in terms of fractions of a sievert.

1 sievert = 1000 millisievert (mSv)
= 1,000,000 microsievert (μSv)
= 1,000,000,000 nanosievert (nSv)



I've also been noticing a no-news period then the sun comes up and with it a new report. And good point on the head count.

[Poll_Blind]

73. The radiation readings from TEPCO _are_ useful, the rest is me winging it!

:rofl:

Their imaging could also be from satellite. It just seemed that it was optics based as opposed to infra-red or something else like that. And that was purely because of the timing.

PB

[suffragette]

75. Flying right beside ya

:)

My eyes are still a bit blurry from looking at that chart.


Hadn't thought of satellite, but a good point and a good use of them, if so.


Back to my former post. That sounded like a guy carrying out other duties ( "carrying batteries") just happened to notice the smoke. Do detectors not function in that environment or are they all out of order? Again, glad he saw it and acted , but more automated monitors could only help.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. ah yes fun

MMFlint Michael Moore
Just in: Radiation levels in Tokyo are now "elevated." American networks continue their "balanced, sensible" approach to reporting the news.
31 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Let me get my bunnies in a row now.

[Poll_Blind]

78. ----PICTURE OF FIRE ALLEGEDLY FROM TEPCO----

Source http://twitpic.com/49v3pt">HERE

Tweeted from HERE

PB

[Hell Hath No Fury]

80. Two images from BBC -