Just how well do we really know these Libyan rebels?

[Hugabear]

This is a serious question. How well do we know these rebels that we're helping? I read earlier that the eastern Libya area that many of these rebels are from is a hotbed for extremism. What's the likelihood that we're helping to get rid of one brutal regime and simply installing another one?

I seem to recall a group of people in Afghanistan that we helped out back in the 1980s that turned around and bit us on the ass pretty hard.

[Paradoxical]

1. Yeah, they are bad. I mean look how they hugged our downed air-force pilots.

And led them to safety.

[Hugabear]

3. Of course they're being friendly to us now. So did the mujahideen in Afghanistan.

We were their best friends in the 1980s. Of course the Libyan rebels are going to be very friendly to us now, because they want our help. But what happens if they succeed and no longer need us?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sad sally]

20. From Dexter Filkin's "The Forever War"

"War in Afghanistan often seemed like a game of pickup basketball, a contest among friends, a tournament where you never knew which team you'd be on when the next game got underway. Shirts today, skins tomorrow. On Tuesday, you might be part of a fearsome Taliban regiment, running into a minefield. And on Wednesday you might be manning a checkpoint for some gang of Northern Alliance. By Thursday you could be back with the Talibs again, holding up your Kalashnikov and promising to wage a jihad forever. War was serious in Afghanistan, but not that serious. It was part of everyday life. It was a job. Only the civilians seemed to lose.
Battles were often decided this way, not by actual fighting, but by flipping gangs of soldiers. One day, the Taliban might have four thousand soldiers, and the next, only half that, with the warlords of the Northern Alliance suddenly larger by a similar amount. The fighting began when the bargaining stopped, and the bargaining went right up until the end. The losers were the ones who were too stubborn, too stupid or too fanatical to make a deal. Suddenly, they would find themselves outnumbered, and then they would die. It was a kind of natural selection."

[HEyHEY]

6. It's a ruse!

[Romulox]

14. What happened to the flowers?

:hi:

[JDPriestly]

2. This is what I want to know? What do the rebels in Libya want?

Egypt has voted for a rather conservative future thus far, perhaps the continuation of the Islamic state rather than separation of religion and state.

Why should we waste our treasury when we are having to cut back on medical care for needy Americans?

Where are our values here?

[joshcryer]

26. OK, as this shit continues it is hard not to call racism. The Egyptians voted more liberal!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/26/us-egypt-constitution-changes-idUSTRE71P28520110226?sp=true

The vote was to remove draconian policies. A country does not magically become a happy go lucky free speech for everyone state overnight dude. It took the United States two centuries and we still haven't got it right.

[JDPriestly]

73. Thanks for the link. Looks like Egypt is getting a good start toward

a safer society to live in. I wish them all the best.

We sure don't have it right. Not by a long shot, but we keep working at it. I am beginning to think that it is never "right."

People who want to take advantage some way to do it in any system.

[HEyHEY]

5. You didn't help the ones that bit you in the ass.

There was a whole civil war after you helped them boot the russians out. The guys who won that war bit your behind.

[snappyturtle]

7. 1st ques.-'we don't'.....2nd ques. 'who knows'?

:popcorn:

Anxious to read more replies.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

8. The USA has to cut everything yet milions for fighter planes

[Amonester]

9. There's no comparison between 2011 eastern Libyans and 1990s Afghanistan.

Look, these people want to get rid of that creep who was about to (attempt to) kill them all.

I see more relation between their struggle and... uh... the 1770s! (Except that there was no "book face" back then.)

[Paradoxical]

11. Look at those little devils. Clearly future Al Qaeda leaders.

I mean, they are brown and they live in a desert. We must always assume that they are extremist terrorists. They couldn't possibly be real human beings like us with real aspirations for liberation.

[freshwest]

23. Flaming already?

[Amonester]

29. It was sarcasm (I think), without the :sarcasm: thingy. n/t

[freshwest]

40. Maybe so. I support ousting dictators, but believe we must lead by example.

I blame the media for almost everything that we get so hot under the collar about and then attack each other and I believe it's designed to do that as a diversion.

Why is everyone who questions this war in an oil producing company being attacked for not loving freedom and democracy? Does the tenor of this sound familiar to anyone, including the celebration of the weaponry being used?

Egypt got rid of their dictator with no American invasion required. Why is this being handled this way?

My Ignore list is growing over this intolerant, flaming stuff I'm seeing tonight, attacking other members. I thought it wasn't allowed.

Maybe you know this poster better than me. And so an end. Thanks.

[Paradoxical]

45. All that from the same person mocking protest signs for having spelling errors.

Do you now know that they are in a foreign country and don't necessarily have degrees in English?

[freshwest]

62. I never mentioned spelling in my post, so that's going off topic.

In fact, I never support spelling nazis, either. If there were any misspelling there, I don't care. They're human beings.

I did not denigrate the kids or anyone wanting freedom and resisting being slaughtered. So anyone not willing to go along with the stampede to a full-fledged war is anti-human bigot, huh?

My point is corporate media is using this and we know who pays their bills so I am suspicious. Some people understood that and responded, but you went after what you assumed are my motives and feelings about these folks, and you are wrong.

There is a lot of heat on this issue, one wonders where the fire began for it. Suddenly the media gets us off the rape of Wisconsin and the fallout from Japan.

I don't join stampedes.

I'm putting you on Ignore because you attack members.

[Paradoxical]

66. Peace and love.

Love and peace

[Amonester]

51. Times are hard for a lot of good people, not only there, but here as well.

If only a true campaign reform bill was at least a 'doable' goal (peacefully...), that could kick all private contributions out of everything 'politics' and begin true reforms for a better future.

Unfortunately, I fear it (that peacefull process) will not be possible soon enough, and many here have a tough time facing that reality. That creates uncertainty, and we need to soften up on each other.

[freshwest]

63. I am soft. Because I want to understand and learn, clearly I don't know it all.

But I won't become someone's whipping post.

[freshwest]

13. Hum, you believe they wrote those signs? Great day for the English language.

[Amonester]

15. And what makes you so certain these children don't have some...

English lessons in their *poor* schools?

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. Not to mention some beautiful penmanship!

:eyes:

[joshcryer]

25. WTF is that supposed to mean? Do you think this kid didn't know what he was supporting?

He was just a dumb kid that didn't know what all all his friends and all the adults were protesting!

[daleo]

33. I recall a lovely young woman who told tales about babies and incubators

Children can be pawns of propagandists. Fact is, they are the easiest to use as pawns since they have little power and little experience.

[Amonester]

35. I remember these lies also.

Fact is, the Rich bastard (don't tell me he isn't one...) was (and still is) after them for real.

[daleo]

72. Facts aren't facts without without evidence

And I haven't seen trustworthy evidence about this whole Libya matter. I have been played too many times.

[lonestarnot]

10. And Yemen? What do they want over there?

[Historic NY]

12. Well they have a website.............that might explain

http://ntclibya.org/english/

[The_Casual_Observer]

16. Ahhh they are so cute and friendly.

Somehow Obama is counting on them to overthrow Mr Badass all by themselves.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. Well, supposedly, they are a SECULAR group who split from Al Qaeda

because they didn't agree with the extreme radical views of Al Qaeda. Now, that is from a "terrorism expert" talking head from MSNBC...yesterday. That's all we know. Again, supposedly, 2 leaders from these rebels, who organized the revolt, met with Hillary Clinton and this is where that information came from.

[aquart]

18. First, it really helps to know what TRIBE you're talking about.

This is a nation of tribes. The tribes all have their own leadership, alliances, points of view. It is a large number of the tribes which have sent men to fight in this uprising. So, WHICH TRIBESMEN ARE YOU ASKING ABOUT? Find that out, do some research on the TRIBE and then you'll know.

There are about 120 different tribes? Some number like that. You think every one of them is the same?

[bullwinkle428]

28. Bush didn't (doesn't?) know the difference between Sunni and Shia,

so I hope we've got people that can make some sense of the tribal differences that exist, and how that will influence any potential change.

[PurityOfEssence]

21. "Anyone would be better than the Shah!" (I had a lot of arguments back then...)

I was hoping he'd fall, too, but I REALLY didn't like Khomeini. (I've had a major dislike of religion for quite some time...)

[joshcryer]

24. Just how well do we know these Egyptian protesters?

[Ozymanithrax]

27. How well do we know those people in Egypt or Tunisia...

How fucking well did those Brits know those colonists that wanted Freedom for the thirteen colonies. Bunch of dodgy characters if you ask me, and look what they did with their freedom, Human rights violations out the Ying Yang with the native population.

I mean, if these people want freedom, they should have the right to determine what freedom means to them. And if their government is murdering them, we should be willing to help them.

[Bluerthanblue]

30. good points all through this-

:hi:

[joshcryer]

32. Egypt votes to remove draconian shit from their constitution = Egypt voting conservatively.

It shows that people commenting here don't know WTF they're talking about and that underlying stereotypes are showing their true colors.

[Ozymanithrax]

36. Don't know who said Egyptians were voting conservativly...

and it would not matter if they did. They have the right to determine what freedom means to them. Fortunately for the Egyptians, the military refused to kill on command.

It is tragic, that the Libyan military has just followed orders.

Those people should be allowed to determine what freedom means.

[joshcryer]

37. It's in this very thread. And exactly, the entire military defected in Egypt, 60% in Yemen.

But because only about 2/3rds defected in Libya (over the span of several weeks), it's an "armed rebellion that must be silenced."

[Hugabear]

34. Well that's the point, isnt it?

Yes, people have the right to determine what freedom means to them, and they have the right to overthrow their government if they choose to do so. However, it should be THEIR fight.

[Ozymanithrax]

38. And if their government decides to commit atrocities and kill civilians...

it is the civilians fault?

By the way, this ia a great Che Guavara quote

“It is not a matter of wishing success to the victim of aggression, but of sharing his fate; one must accompany him to his death or to victory.”
Che Guavara quote

You might reconsider that image you use. I don't think he would agree with you.

[Hugabear]

41. Governments are killing civilians all over the globe

North Korea, Sri Lanka, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast, just to name a few. Oh, can't forget Bahrain, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia. Doesn't matter whether they're using planes, machine guns, or machetes, the result is the same - death.

[Ozymanithrax]

44. And we should be willing to help them. Che Guevara certainly believed revolutionareis...

should be helped.

“It is not a matter of wishing success to the victim of aggression, but of sharing his fate; one must accompany him to his death or to victory.”
Che Guavara quote

[Hugabear]

47. But to what extent?

Should we use our military to do so? If you're going to be consistent, then you should support military intervention in many of these other places as well. Doing so means vastly expanding our military.

Should we really be the world's policeman, ready to use our military any time a country's leader starts killing civilians?

[Ozymanithrax]

53. I do advocate military intervention when other forms have failed...

We tried to use other methods to stop the Libyan government from resorting to murder at what was initially an peacful demand by its people. We should be willing to aid other countries to find what they consider freedom.

Allowing the Rawanda genocide was wrong. It is a mistake we should not repeat, wehther it is in Libya, Yemen, or anywhere.

When the UN authorizes such an action, and we act in agreement with other nations, yes we should act.

I agree with Che Guavara.

“It is not a matter of wishing success to the victim of aggression, but of sharing his fate; one must accompany him to his death or to victory.”
Che Guavara quote

[Hugabear]

57. You really think Che would support American military intervention?

Seems rather hard to believe

[joshcryer]

59. Che'd be there on the ground fighting alongside the rebels.

And he'd be calling Castro to bring in jets.

[Ozymanithrax]

65. Yes, he would. n/t

[Ozymanithrax]

64. Read the quote, especially the part about dying with them.

“It is not a matter of wishing success to the victim of aggression, but of sharing his fate; one must accompany him to his death or to victory.”
Che Guavara

che Guavara would be happy to know that the U.S., for once, was supporting the people being stomped on rather than stomping on them. We should not wish the Libyans success and then shed crocodile tears when they lose and must bury their children. We should support all the people fighting for freedom. I prefer that the U.S. pressure tyrants to retire, but when those tyrants resort to murder in order to hold on to power, we should be willing to use what ever force is necessary to stop them within a frame work established by the UN and other international partners.

[joshcryer]

48. Yep, and I advocate that sentiment. R2P needs to be legitimized.

[Ozymanithrax]

54. A great organization.

http://www.responsibilitytoprotect.org/

[PVnRT]

74. I guess we should never do anything then

Your argument appears to be that because we failed to do something in one place, we can never do anything anywhere.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/moralistic/

[joshcryer]

39. So the US shouldn't have pressed Mubarak to step down? The US shouldn't tell Saleh to step down?

Fuck this bullshit.

[Hugabear]

43. Yet another straw man

Nobody said that we couldn't pressure them to step down. But there's a huge difference between pressuring someone to step down and using your military to do so.

[joshcryer]

46. So Saleh doesn't appear to be stepping down. He's threatening a civil war.

Should we just let the wholesale slaughter begin or should the international community do something in the event that happens?

See, what you're doing is trying to take a position that doesn't represent the actual situation in Libya.

[Hugabear]

50. So do you support military intervention in Yemen as well?

How many other countries do you want to use our military in? Sierra Leone? Sri Lanka? Burma? Ivory Coast? The Congo? Should we get our military involved anytime there is a civil war in a country and civilians are in danger?

Or do we just tell these other people that they're not important for us to waste our military on.

[joshcryer]

52. If it escalates to the level Libya has, absolutely. Sorry, but wholesale slaughter of people...

...be they "armed rebels" or civilians is wrong, completely wrong.

[Hugabear]

55. Many of these countries have far surpassed Libya

The only difference here is that Gadhaffi was using his planes to bomb rebel positions. Other governments have managed to use machine guns, artillery, and machetes to kill far, far more people than Gadhaffi has done.

[joshcryer]

58. That is patently false, none of them escalated to the point Libya had a month ago.

NONE OF THEM.

[Hugabear]

68. More people have died in Libya than Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast, the Congo, Sri Lanka, Burma, etc?

Sorry, but your statement is patently false.

[Hugabear]

71. Perhaps you missed this thread - 45,000 people per month in the Congo

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=713108&mesg_id=713108

45,000 people dying in the Congo per month, nearly THREE MILLION since 2004.

[Amonester]

61. I know it's old, but: The French Contribution to the American War of Independence

Yes... THAT old stuff.... It was also about Helping Others to Overthrow their Rude (and Rich) rulers...

The French Contribution to the American War of Independence
http://people.csail.mit.edu/sfelshin/saintonge/frhist.html


Memory is a faculty that forgets.

[daleo]

31. As well as we knew Curveball

Or the "moral equivalents of the founding fathers", "freedom fighters", and all the other stories.

[kenny blankenship]

42. I want to see their Birth Certificates! I bet half of 'em is Muslins

and the other half is lyin'.

[TheKentuckian]

49. I had them over for cigars and brandy and I do have to say the company was divine.

Most entertaining and gracious guests.

[w4rma]

56. They are people and they are working to overthrow a dictator.

They will do better off without the dictator as long as we limit our involvement.

[tuckessee]

60. I seen 'em on my very own TeeVee so I damn well know 'em good.

TeeVee's in my living room and that's where the pretty gals on Fox tole me they was the Good Guys. I seen pictures of them and all that.

I think they're so Good that when they're kiilin' they own folk they do it all real nice and sweet, not like them dead-end, evil-doin', incubator baby tossin' Bad Guys.

[Amonester]

69. Ignore list, ignore list, here you come.

:D

[Paradoxical]

70. ...

[killbotfactory]

67. They are all on hallucinogenic drugs and belong to Al Qaeda

Everybody else loves Gaddafi.