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Still a Democrat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 08:41 AM Original message |
"the central cause of the (Civil) war was our national disagreement about race and slavery" |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 08:48 AM Response to Original message |
1. k&r nt |
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hobbit709 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:08 AM Response to Original message |
2. That was the only "States Rights" issue that they cared about. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:16 AM Response to Original message |
3. Your hypothesis is inaccurate. |
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Cassandra (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:20 AM Response to Reply #3 |
4. Without slavery... |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:33 AM Response to Reply #4 |
10. That is true; however, slavery was not the issue. |
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hlthe2b (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:41 AM Response to Reply #10 |
12. His wife's family owned slaves. Lincoln did not. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:44 AM Response to Reply #10 |
17. Lincoln didn't own slaves. |
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cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:08 AM Response to Reply #10 |
27. read some history and educate yourself. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:37 AM Response to Reply #27 |
33. For your educational benefit: From the 4th Lincoln-Douglas debate, September 18th, 1858. |
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Marr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 08:09 PM Response to Reply #33 |
78. He was addressing a crowd as a politician. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:59 AM Response to Reply #78 |
107. You are correct, "he was addressing a crowd as a politician." |
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EstimatedProphet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 08:52 AM Response to Reply #33 |
98. And yet nowhere in that speech does Lincoln ctate owning slaves, or that he is pro-slavery |
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The Magistrate (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:23 AM Response to Reply #3 |
5. Simple-Minded Nonesense, Sir |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:28 AM Response to Reply #5 |
8. Thank you for making my point. |
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cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:42 AM Response to Reply #8 |
14. codswallop |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:52 AM Response to Reply #14 |
23. . |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:09 AM Response to Reply #23 |
28. Deleted message |
cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:42 AM Response to Reply #8 |
15. yeah, that's why the underground railroad was such a huge undertaking |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:47 AM Response to Reply #8 |
20. Deleted message |
Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:27 AM Response to Reply #3 |
6. slave economy nt |
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unc70 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 05:59 PM Response to Reply #6 |
74. New England had a "slave trade" economy |
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Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 06:43 PM Response to Reply #74 |
76. No. New England had some wealthy families involved in the trade. |
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NWHarkness (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:41 AM Response to Reply #3 |
13. Economics and slavery were THE SAME ISSUE |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:44 AM Response to Reply #13 |
18. well argued |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:46 AM Response to Reply #13 |
19. Agreed. The level of confederate sympathizer talking points cropping up here is egregious. |
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hootinholler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 12:40 PM Response to Reply #19 |
46. Indeed |
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coalition_unwilling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 04:19 PM Response to Reply #46 |
169. Actually, it's probably closer to the truth (if such exists) to say that |
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hootinholler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 06:45 PM Response to Reply #169 |
195. The point is Lee or no one else ruined the south... |
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coalition_unwilling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 10:53 PM Response to Reply #195 |
206. Admirably expressed. Points well taken. I do think you would |
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Paladin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-29-10 07:41 AM Response to Reply #169 |
217. Try Not To Let It Ruin Your Day. (n/t) |
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Kweli4Real (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 11:10 PM Response to Reply #19 |
207. And Some Would Argue That DU ... |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 11:21 PM Response to Reply #207 |
209. Ah. Creative is gone. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:19 AM Response to Reply #13 |
29. The civil war would have happened with or without the institution of slavery. |
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Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:36 AM Response to Reply #29 |
32. What a banal assertion. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:50 AM Response to Reply #32 |
34. It is you that is living in an "alternate universe, for you are unable to acknowledge the |
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Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 11:07 AM Response to Reply #34 |
37. I attacked your assertion, not you. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 11:32 AM Response to Reply #37 |
38. I think the guy who started this war probably knows more than you or I about why it was fought. |
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Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 11:36 AM Response to Reply #38 |
40. I give up. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 12:05 PM Response to Reply #40 |
41. It's not a matter of winning or losing, or being an apologist for the South. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 12:40 PM Response to Reply #41 |
47. How about acknowledging post 7 where Alexander Stephens said it was about slavery |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 01:09 PM Response to Reply #47 |
52. How about acknowledging where Lincoln said it was not. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 01:25 PM Response to Reply #52 |
54. Since Stephens was one of the guys who started the war, he knows better than Lincoln why it happened |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 03:26 PM Response to Reply #54 |
60. . |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 03:28 PM Response to Reply #54 |
63. Actually, I believe it was the North which invaded the South. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 04:16 PM Response to Reply #63 |
69. It was Southern troops who attacked federal soldiers at Sumter. |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 12:57 PM Response to Reply #38 |
50. Lincoln started the Civil War? |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 03:27 PM Response to Reply #50 |
61. A blockade is an act of war. |
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NoGOPZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 04:07 PM Response to Reply #61 |
66. As is the bombardment of a federal fort. nt |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 04:16 PM Response to Reply #66 |
70. And the bombardment happened before the blockade. |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 08:01 PM Response to Reply #61 |
77. Fort Sumter was attacked on April 12th, 1861. |
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DeltaLitProf (459 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-29-10 06:31 AM Response to Reply #38 |
216. That man was also capable of . . . |
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NWHarkness (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:57 AM Response to Reply #29 |
36. Name a reason |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 11:34 AM Response to Reply #36 |
39. Here is one of the many...taxes. |
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NWHarkness (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 12:06 PM Response to Reply #39 |
42. Not Applicable |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 12:35 PM Response to Reply #42 |
44. It most certainly is applicable, as was the suspension of habeas corpus. |
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NWHarkness (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 12:55 PM Response to Reply #44 |
49. Again, not applicable |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 01:08 PM Response to Reply #49 |
51. But those states were not at war until that happened; thus, that was a REASON for the war. |
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NWHarkness (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 01:22 PM Response to Reply #51 |
53. That makes no sense at all |
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NoGOPZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 04:11 PM Response to Reply #44 |
67. The alleged Taney Arrest Warrant is not an accepted historical fact. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 08:39 AM Response to Reply #67 |
96. The warrant was issued and it was documented by the Federal Marshal |
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NoGOPZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:05 AM Response to Reply #96 |
101. Several of Lincoln's biographers regard the story as false. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:55 AM Response to Reply #101 |
105. However, Lincoln's first biographer, the federal marshal who issued the warrant |
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NoGOPZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 11:52 AM Response to Reply #105 |
118. You've cleverly avoided the documentation issue |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:37 PM Response to Reply #118 |
125. Lamon was one of Lincoln's closest friends and confidants. In my view, that validates his statement. |
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NoGOPZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:41 PM Response to Reply #125 |
126. Yes, in your view. So now I'm back to my original statement |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:52 PM Response to Reply #126 |
127. Yes, "several historians" who never met Lincoln. |
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NoGOPZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:55 PM Response to Reply #127 |
128. No, documentation would establish his statement as historical fact |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 06:22 PM Response to Reply #128 |
189. He didn't simply meet Lincoln, they were extremely close. And the fact remains |
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NoGOPZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 06:38 PM Response to Reply #189 |
193. His closeness to Lincoln does not establish his veracity |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 01:40 PM Response to Reply #39 |
55. The reason for the naval blockade was that it was considered a less violent means of subduing... |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 03:34 PM Response to Reply #55 |
64. Surly, you must be aware of the fact that a naval blockade constitutes an act of war. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 08:17 PM Response to Reply #64 |
80. See responses to 64. I can't believe how far you go to try to justify those treasonous dogs. |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 07:55 AM Response to Reply #80 |
92. Deleted message |
Commie Pinko Dirtbag (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:01 PM Response to Reply #92 |
201. That's like saying, if I say Nazis are "genocidal bastards"... |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:51 PM Response to Reply #64 |
86. The "War of Northern Aggression" then? |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 08:09 AM Response to Reply #86 |
93. Up until that time, most people believed that there was absolutely nothing in the Constitution |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 11:36 AM Response to Reply #93 |
115. Misleading and mistaken revisionism. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 06:31 PM Response to Reply #115 |
192. It is not revisionist to state what many believed at the time. Moreover, this issue was never |
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TexasObserver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:43 PM Response to Reply #64 |
157. No, And don't call me "surly"! |
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martymar64 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 08:59 PM Response to Reply #64 |
200. Bombing a fort is also an act of war |
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fishwax (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:06 AM Response to Reply #29 |
88. That's like saying the Super Bowl would happen with or without the institution of football |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 08:47 AM Response to Reply #88 |
97. 74% of Southerns did not own slaves; thus, it is clear that there was more going on in |
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EstimatedProphet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:04 AM Response to Reply #97 |
100. 80% of the people in this country holds 20% of the wealth |
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fishwax (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:05 PM Response to Reply #97 |
119. So? What percent of Americans owned stock in 1929? |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:31 PM Response to Reply #119 |
123. By the same token, did not poor northerners benefit from slave ownership in the North? |
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EstimatedProphet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:17 PM Response to Reply #123 |
134. So you think it wasn't about slavery for the south because the north got benefits too? |
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fishwax (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:18 PM Response to Reply #123 |
136. they weren't as reliant on it, clearly |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:44 PM Response to Reply #136 |
139. I understand, slavery is okay with you as long as some people aren't "as reliant on it" as others. |
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fishwax (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:26 PM Response to Reply #139 |
153. lol -- that's simply an absurd response, since I never said anything remotely like that |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:08 PM Response to Reply #97 |
120. Yet slaveowners and poor whites enjoyed the privilege of their whiteness in the South. |
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lumberjack_jeff (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 12:33 PM Response to Reply #13 |
43. Sorta. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 10:15 AM Response to Reply #43 |
108. Compensated Emancipation was used to free the slaves in the District of Columbia. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 02:39 PM Response to Reply #13 |
145. Exactly. |
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unblock (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:54 AM Response to Reply #3 |
24. the timing of secession is suspicious. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:23 AM Response to Reply #24 |
30. If slavery was THAT big an issue, why did the political party which based their campaign |
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unblock (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:35 AM Response to Reply #30 |
31. oh please. 1852? |
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TexasObserver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:47 PM Response to Reply #30 |
158. Historically, 3rd parties are harbingers for major party issues. |
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demwing (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 02:55 PM Response to Reply #3 |
57. In the South of the time, slavery WAS economics |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 08:21 AM Response to Reply #57 |
94. I am not trying to sanitize the institution of slavery, I am simply making the point |
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demwing (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 08:58 AM Response to Reply #94 |
99. I do understand you are not defending slavery, please try to understand |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:53 AM Response to Reply #99 |
104. The point I am trying to make is that although slavery was an outdated leftover institution from |
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EstimatedProphet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 11:14 AM Response to Reply #104 |
114. This is a lot like saying that the Titanic sank because it filled with water |
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salin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 02:03 PM Response to Reply #104 |
142. are you suggestion that seccession should have been allowed? |
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TexasObserver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:55 PM Response to Reply #104 |
160. You seem to be an advocate of calling it The Northern War of Aggression. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 04:36 PM Response to Reply #160 |
171. Yes, I choose to acknowledge things like the Lincoln-Douglas debates, the Emancipation Proclamation, |
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TexasObserver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 11:45 PM Response to Reply #171 |
212. Something tells me you're also reading the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" |
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demwing (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-29-10 08:03 AM Response to Reply #104 |
218. So I give you a WIDE open door to condemn slavery |
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EstimatedProphet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:05 AM Response to Reply #94 |
102. Which is an attempt to sanitize the institution of slavery |
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Better Believe It (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 03:08 PM Response to Reply #3 |
58. It was economics. The outmoded slave labor versus the new capitalist system based on wage labor |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 03:40 PM Response to Reply #58 |
65. I agree with much of what you say, for Capitalism cannot work with slave labor. |
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Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:56 AM Response to Reply #65 |
106. There is nothing that precludes the use of slave labor in a capitalist system. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 10:27 AM Response to Reply #106 |
110. I prefer to use the dictionary to define words. You see, unlike opioniions, |
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EstimatedProphet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 11:51 AM Response to Reply #110 |
117. Do you have a reason for stating that? |
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Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:11 PM Response to Reply #110 |
149. great - I see your are taking my suggestion. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:56 PM Response to Reply #149 |
161. I am not arguing that states cannot own slaves. |
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Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-29-10 04:20 PM Response to Reply #161 |
221. "capitalism is the only economic system that recognizes property rights" |
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rhett o rick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 04:15 PM Response to Reply #3 |
68. I agree. nm |
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MannyGoldstein (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 06:24 AM Response to Reply #3 |
91. By what legal mechanism could Lincoln have banned slavery |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 08:26 AM Response to Reply #91 |
95. That's simple, the North was already ignoring the Constitution with regard to fugitive slave laws. |
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MannyGoldstein (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:53 AM Response to Reply #95 |
103. I don't think that's the case |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 10:46 AM Response to Reply #103 |
111. Okay, let my try to make my point more clearly. |
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Art_from_Ark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-29-10 04:03 AM Response to Reply #111 |
214. In 1860, Lincoln was not yet president |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:18 PM Response to Reply #95 |
122. So slavery was at the heart of secession after all? nt |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:09 PM Response to Reply #122 |
131. Nice try, but the point made was Lincoln choosing not to free ALL slaves being held in the US. |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:10 PM Response to Reply #131 |
132. again, slavery nt |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:17 PM Response to Reply #132 |
135. Again, if slavery was the reason, why not free them all? |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:39 PM Response to Reply #135 |
138. That was eventually done. |
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Cosmocat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 10:55 AM Response to Reply #3 |
112. Dude - economy and slavery were the SAME ISSUE ... |
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TexasObserver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 02:38 PM Response to Reply #3 |
144. The hypothesis is correct, as anyone who has studied History knows. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:14 PM Response to Reply #144 |
150. Tell me then, how could the north fight for the emancipation of slaves in the South |
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TexasObserver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:30 PM Response to Reply #150 |
155. Have you considered taking reputable courses from a good university? |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:38 PM Response to Reply #155 |
156. Clearly, you are the victim of a substandard educational process. |
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TexasObserver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 04:08 PM Response to Reply #156 |
165. Clearly you are a victim of a Confederate educational process. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 04:16 PM Response to Reply #165 |
168. Well, at least my victim status did not lead me to the same conclusions that you revealed |
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Taverner (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 04:14 PM Response to Reply #3 |
167. BS, hands down it was about slavery and preserving the union |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 04:28 PM Response to Reply #167 |
170. Well then, perhaps you can explain to me how it could have been about slavery, |
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Taverner (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:01 PM Response to Reply #170 |
174. Although there was slavery in the North, most Americans at the time thought there wasn't |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:39 PM Response to Reply #174 |
178. Unlike others, you are at least willing to acknowledge the fact that slavery did indeed exist |
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Taverner (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:45 PM Response to Reply #178 |
181. Well yeah, and indentured servitude was going on too |
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Taverner (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:46 PM Response to Reply #181 |
182. Oh and for what I'm smoking - I don't consider Howard Zinn a drug |
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sudopod (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 06:28 PM Response to Reply #3 |
191. Here is a link to the Confederate Constitution |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 06:56 PM Response to Reply #191 |
196. Here is a link to the US Constitution. If it was about slavery, you would not find these words: |
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tsuki (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 07:06 PM Response to Reply #3 |
198. Propaganda for the masses. WMD, anyone? It was an economic |
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martymar64 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 08:47 PM Response to Reply #3 |
199. According to the South Carolina Declaration of Secession, it was exactly about slavery |
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DeltaLitProf (459 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-29-10 06:29 AM Response to Reply #3 |
215. Sorry, but no |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:27 AM Response to Original message |
7. The vice-president of the Confederacy said this. |
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Taverner (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:39 PM Response to Reply #7 |
179. Pretty much proof positive that the war was about slavery |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:28 AM Response to Original message |
9. For the North it was about preserving the Union, for the South it was about maintaining slavery. |
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cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:47 AM Response to Reply #9 |
21. er, it was also very, very much about abolition for much of the North. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:54 AM Response to Reply #21 |
25. "for much of the north" better reflects the various perspectives, but I'd say that the official... |
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Better Believe It (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 03:16 PM Response to Reply #9 |
59. Preserving a union with capitalism as the national economic system! |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 04:37 PM Response to Reply #59 |
71. If so, then Marx found Capitalism winning over a chattel slave system is nothing lamentable. |
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coalition_unwilling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 04:58 PM Response to Reply #71 |
73. This is a beautiful document you have linked to. Brought tears to |
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coalition_unwilling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 04:49 PM Response to Reply #59 |
72. You are committing the 'post hoc, ergo propter hoc' fallacy that |
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Art_from_Ark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:42 PM Response to Reply #59 |
82. Why was a civil war over slavery assured? |
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gkhouston (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:18 PM Response to Reply #82 |
121. It wasn't. If the sides had been more evenly matched in terms of factories and |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:36 PM Response to Reply #121 |
124. King Cotton. |
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Taverner (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:48 PM Response to Reply #9 |
183. The South also wanted a "Tropical Empire" |
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sharesunited (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:33 AM Response to Original message |
11. And the 2nd Amendment gave the Rebels mistaken encouragement. |
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loudsue (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:43 AM Response to Original message |
16. So many of the history books written by southerners in the south say that slavery |
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eleny (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:02 AM Response to Reply #16 |
26. "People are supposed to be bent to their will, and the truth should be bent to their liking. " |
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loudsue (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:54 AM Response to Reply #26 |
35. Thanks! |
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LuvNewcastle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:51 AM Response to Original message |
22. During the civil rights movement, |
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ladjf (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 12:39 PM Response to Reply #22 |
45. I believe we are dealing with a "primal directive" to dominate, a |
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MadMaddie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 01:47 PM Response to Reply #22 |
56. Bingo! It has always been about power |
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Taverner (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:53 PM Response to Reply #22 |
185. Very true - the CSA created a culture that is still alive today |
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TBF (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 12:42 PM Response to Original message |
48. Of course it was - they wanted free labor. nt |
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Art_from_Ark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 06:30 PM Response to Reply #48 |
75. And the North used *practically* free labor |
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RegieRocker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 03:28 PM Response to Original message |
62. Thank God slavery was abolished! Now can we move on to focusing |
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 08:12 PM Response to Original message |
79. I rank such denial as only slightly less nauseating than Holocaust denial. -nt |
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Kweli4Real (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 11:23 PM Response to Reply #79 |
210. Why "slightly less"? n/t |
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ismnotwasm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 08:37 PM Response to Original message |
81. Yes |
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Art_from_Ark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:21 PM Response to Reply #81 |
84. The South was more interested in gaining new states |
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ismnotwasm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 02:57 PM Response to Reply #84 |
147. Oh, I've no doubt. |
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bullwinkle428 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 09:43 PM Response to Original message |
83. DU needs to come up with another "bingo card" for slavery apologists, |
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 10:40 PM Response to Reply #83 |
85. Four squares down, 20 to go. Let me try to help. |
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coalition_unwilling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-27-10 11:53 PM Response to Reply #85 |
87. The one that absolutely enrages me is the trope that Lincoln |
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:21 AM Response to Reply #87 |
90. Come to the brainstorm! |
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Kweli4Real (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 11:30 PM Response to Reply #87 |
211. I have to disagree ... |
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coalition_unwilling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-29-10 12:10 AM Response to Reply #211 |
213. OK, using your definition of 'racist' (questionable on its surface but be that as it may), |
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Kweli4Real (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-29-10 01:31 PM Response to Reply #213 |
219. Oh, Come on ... |
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coalition_unwilling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-29-10 02:34 PM Response to Reply #219 |
220. I had forgotten that passage from the 1858 debate and I think I may |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:21 AM Response to Reply #85 |
89. How about |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 10:19 AM Response to Reply #89 |
109. And maybe we can add |
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TexasObserver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 04:03 PM Response to Reply #85 |
164. BINGO! |
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Kweli4Real (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 11:18 PM Response to Reply #164 |
208. Can't be BINGO already ... |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 10:58 AM Response to Reply #83 |
113. Deleted message |
mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 11:38 AM Response to Reply #113 |
116. you should get your facts and dates right first |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 12:57 PM Response to Reply #116 |
129. Most reputable scholars agree that there was more to the Civil War than slavery. |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:06 PM Response to Reply #129 |
130. Agreed. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:15 PM Response to Reply #130 |
133. This is the legal definition of "civil war." |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:30 PM Response to Reply #133 |
137. I do not consider your link an authoritative source. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:46 PM Response to Reply #133 |
140. Well, that is the legal definition and you know what they say about leading a horse to water... |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 02:28 PM Response to Reply #140 |
143. Article I, Section 8, spells out the power of Congress |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:08 PM Response to Reply #143 |
148. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:17 PM Response to Reply #148 |
151. Deleted message |
mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:27 PM Response to Reply #148 |
154. Yours is simply a misreading of the Constitution. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 04:45 PM Response to Reply #154 |
172. Well, since the issue has not been decided by the courts, I will have to rely on |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 06:27 PM Response to Reply #172 |
190. It did come before the Supreme Court in 1868, Texas v. White. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 07:00 PM Response to Reply #190 |
197. I believe the war ended in 1864; prior to this decision. |
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martymar64 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:22 PM Response to Reply #197 |
204. The war ended in April 1865, not 1864. |
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salin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 01:51 PM Response to Reply #129 |
141. So what shall we call it... the failed war for independence? |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:19 PM Response to Reply #141 |
152. You can call it whatever you want, the point remains the same--slavery was an issue, |
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Mojeoux (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 04:02 PM Response to Reply #152 |
163. So it's Greed vs. Human Compassion Then and Now |
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EstimatedProphet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:05 PM Response to Reply #113 |
175. I agree. You need to dig a little more beneath the surface. |
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LynneSin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 02:42 PM Response to Original message |
146. I thought it was more about 'States Rights' |
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Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:55 PM Response to Reply #146 |
159. See up thread, just as segregation was a 'state's rights' issue. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:14 PM Response to Reply #159 |
176. It also seems very odd that none of the Free States seemed to find a need to secede to protect... |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 03:57 PM Response to Reply #146 |
162. The only "right" in question was the right to be a slave state |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 04:10 PM Response to Reply #146 |
166. You are correct, state's rights and trade (economics) were the primary reasons. |
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neverforget (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:25 PM Response to Reply #166 |
177. Slavery is economics as in FREE LABOR. Ever take a look at the CSA Constitution? |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:42 PM Response to Reply #177 |
180. I don't have to look at th CSA Constitution, for slavery was legal under the US Constitution |
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neverforget (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:49 PM Response to Reply #180 |
184. Too inconvienent for ya that the Confederates enshrined slavery in their |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 05:56 PM Response to Reply #184 |
186. And also enshrined protective barriers for the domestic "slave breeding" industry. |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 06:10 PM Response to Reply #184 |
187. Inconvenient…? Actually, I find it disgusting; but no more disgusting |
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neverforget (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 06:19 PM Response to Reply #187 |
188. I see it's not disgusting enough to defend the Confederacy though |
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Creative (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 06:39 PM Response to Reply #188 |
194. You have purposefully misconstrued my position, for I have simply argued that |
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neverforget (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:10 PM Response to Reply #194 |
203. How can you possibly say that Lincoln was willing to allow slavery to exist |
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Scruffy1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 04:50 PM Response to Original message |
173. This BS revisionism started with the neocons |
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rucky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:05 PM Response to Original message |
202. I fail to see what this has to do with Michael Vick. n/t |
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MellowDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-28-10 09:56 PM Response to Original message |
205. Is there really still major denial? |
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Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-29-10 04:21 PM Response to Reply #205 |
222. Major Denial is now Dearly Departed. |
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neverforget (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-29-10 04:27 PM Response to Reply #222 |
223. Ah that's too bad. I was hoping for a response to #203. The historical |
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