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Why isn’t Obama getting credit for stopping an atrocity?--Human Rights Watch official

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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 01:52 PM
Original message
Why isn’t Obama getting credit for stopping an atrocity?--Human Rights Watch official




The Timeliness Paradox


Why isn’t Obama getting credit for stopping an atrocity?



Tom MalinowskiMarch 27, 2011 | 5:53 pm


Here is one lesson we can draw from the mostly negative media commentary about the Obama administration’s actions in Libya: Presidents get more credit for stopping atrocities after they begin than for preventing them before they get out of hand.

...


In Libya, many people (we don’t yet know how many) were arrested, forcibly disappeared and possibly executed as the Qaddafi government consolidated its control over Tripoli and rebel-held enclaves, like Zawiyah, in the country’s west. But the Obama administration and its international allies did act soon enough to prevent the much larger-scale atrocities that would likely have followed Qaddafi’s reconquest of eastern Libya and especially the city of Benghazi. Indeed, though this intervention must have felt painfully slow to the people of Benghazi as Qaddafi’s army bore down upon them, it was, by any objective standard, the most rapid multinational military response to an impending human rights crisis in history, with broader international support than any of the humanitarian interventions of the 1990s.


But precisely because the international community acted in time—before Qaddafi retook Benghazi—we never saw what might have happened had they not acted. Today in eastern Libya, there are no columns of refugees marching home to reclaim their lives; no mass graves testifying to the gravity of the crisis; no moment that symbolizes a passing from horror to hope. The sacking of Benghazi was the proverbial dog that didn’t bark. And so, just days into the military operation, commentators have moved on to a new set of questions—some serious (Is the mission to protect civilians or to remove Qaddafi? Will NATO be stuck patrolling a divided country?), and some trivial (Should Obama have gone to Brazil when the bombing started? Did the interventionist “girls” in his administration out-argue the cautious boys?)


But before the debate moves on, as it must, we should acknowledge what could be happening in eastern Libya right now had Qaddafi’s forces continued their march. The dozens of burned out tanks, rocket launchers, and missiles bombed at the eleventh hour on the road to Benghazi would have devastated the rebel stronghold if Qaddafi’s forces had been able to unleash them indiscriminately, as they did in other, smaller rebel-held towns, like Zawiyah, Misrata, and Adjabiya. Qaddafi’s long track-record of arresting, torturing, disappearing, and killing his political opponents to maintain control suggests that had he recaptured the east, a similar fate would have awaited those who supported the opposition there. Over a hundred thousand Libyans already fled to Egypt fearing Qaddafi’s assault; hundreds of thousands more could have followed if the east had fallen. The remaining population, and those living in refugee camps abroad, would have felt betrayed by the West, which groups like Al Qaeda would undoubtedly have tried to exploit. Finally, Qaddafi’s victory—alongside Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak’s fall—would have signaled to other authoritarian governments from Syria to Saudi Arabia to China that if you negotiate with protesters you lose, but if you kill them you win.

...


Tom Malinowski is the Washington director of Human Rights Watch.



http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/85856/the-speed-paradox







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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. but but....
i thought it was all about oil....NOT!
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. It's not "all" about oil. But oil sure is a critical ingredient in diciding
Who do we bomb to save whom---and who do we not bomb despite the atrocities against whom.

I still support the air war in Libya, but it'd be nice if equal attention could be given to those atrocities occurring in other parts of the world.
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. yep....
all the evidence points to oil....tell me again, what is the evidence other than hyperbolic speculation?

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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Great question. Here's my partial answer.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 05:06 PM by Bucky
The world quietly waited out the 1971 Bangladesh atrocities. Between 200,000 and 3 million killed. No oil was involved.


America policy was generally to ignore the slaughter of 200,000 in Guatemala in the 60s. No oil was involved.


Burundi has gone through two genocides and neither air cover nor military intervention were brought to bear. In 1973 the Tutsi army killed 80,000-200,000 Hutus. In 1992, Hutus gained power and retaliated against Burundi_genocide Tutsis. Both events struggled for any media attention in America. No oil was involved.


In the 70s, Equatorial Guinea saw so much slaughter and human abuse that it was nicknamed "the Auschwitz of Africa" and yet dictator Francisco Macías Nguema was freely suffered to rule his little country with no western intervention. No oil was involved.


In 1987, threats to Kuwaiti oil from Iranian attacks led to a US reflagging operation called Operation Earnest Will to protect world oil exports. Oil was involved.


In 1991, Iraq invaded Kuwait and largely exaggerated or fabricated accounts of atrocities led to immediate intervention and America's first full scale war since Vietnam. Oil was involved.


About 800,000 Tutsis and pro-peace Hutus were killed by Hutu extremists in Rwanda in 1994 while the industrialized world fretted and regretted, but did not bring any force to bear. No oil was involved.


While Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge murdered about 2 million Cambodians in The Killing Fields, the world whinged and whined, but did not intervene. No oil was involved.


The Indonesian government used starvation as a weapon in East Timor in the 80s and 90s, resulting in about 100,000 to 150,000 deaths. Oil was involved, but it was easier to get at by ignoring the loss of life. Complaints were registered on occasion, but business was never interrupted.


The Argentine Dirty War went on for seven years and over 10,000 dead without direct external pressure. No oil was involved.


Half a million were killed in Ethiopia's Red Terror, but no one sent in the troops. No oil was involved.


When Operation Enduring Freedom went into Iraq 8 years ago, protection of oil resources often trumped protection of local populations.


When Saddam Hussein was killing the Kurds, the bombs didn't drop, but then that might have interrupted the flow of oil. China does whatever it likes in Tibet with only words from the outside world to punish them for it. North Korea is a country-sized prison under the grip of an insane man who happens to have no oil. Pygmies in the Democratic Republic of Congo are targeted for murder, cannibalism, and rape under what the Human Rights Watch calls a "campaign of extermination," but no one says we should bomb there. In Somalia, West Papua, and Darfur, Sudan, horrible slaughters either by government forces or by those protected by government forces, but no direct efforts are being undertaken--only sanctions some of the time. The only one of those where discussion of intervention ever got started was in Darfur, where oil was involved. The military interventions of the US in the past ten years have included only places (Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan) where violence threatened the flow of fossil fuels to the industrialized world. Where blood flowed far away from the pumps, the impetus to protect lives seems to lack that same peculiar momentum.

So when I say oil was a critical factor, I think there's enough of a history behind US intervention to back up my generalization. I don't think it's hyperbolic and I think I've shown it's a good deal more than speculation.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. "about 100,000 to 150,000 deaths in Indonesia" But the link you gave says "a minimum of 73,000"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_occupation_of_East_Timor#Starvation

Where did you get the "about 100,000 to 150,000" from?

Plus, Indonesia was under a dictatorship at the time, not a "government" as most people would use the term. The occupation soon after the dictatorship fell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_occupation_of_East_Timor#End_of_Indonesian_control
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. I have to ask, why is this individual politicizing his human rights mission?
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 01:59 PM by EFerrari
This is the problem I've always had with HRW. :shrug:

/oops, medieval spelling!
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. Has it been "stopped" or "postponed"?
This is like declaring the game over at halftime. Ask Duke how that worked out for them.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. Amnesty International: Thorough investigation urged over Libya rape case
Thorough investigation urged over Libya rape case

The Libyan authorities must thoroughly investigate the case of a woman who said she had been raped by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi, Amnesty International said today.

“Iman al-Obeidi’s allegations are stomach-churning. The Libyan authorities must immediately launch an independent and impartial investigation and bring those responsible to justice if the allegations are well-founded,” said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International’s Middle East and North Africa Director

“It is extremely disturbing that Iman al-Obeidi was forcibly dragged away by Libyan security officials when she tried to speak to journalists. The authorities must say where she is now and guarantee her safety and well-being. If she is being detained, she should be released immediately."

"The Libyan authorities have a long record of silencing those who dare speak out against human rights violations. It is all the more worrying that they did not hesitate to do this, using heavy-handed methods, despite the presence of the international media."

Iman al-Obedi was detained on Saturday after bursting into a Tripoli hotel where international journalists had gathered and saying she had been raped.


Rape used 'as a weapon' in Libya

As Libya's opposition fighters push west, doctors are uncovering more victims from the front line.

Several doctors say they have found Viagra tablets and condoms in the pockets of dead pro-Gaddafi fighters, alleging that they were using rape as a weapon of war.

They say they have been treating female rape survivors who were allied with pro-democracy forces.

Furthermore, 175 people, including doctors, have been reported missing from Ajdabiya, and many have now been found to have been killed.


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I notice Amnesty is not minding the credit going to politicians. n/t
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mazzarro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Bet most of these fantastic cliams will turn out to be lies later
It never fails to happen as the West gears up for war against any country they have chosen as their target - the demonization, the allegations of torture, oppression, rape and dastardliness of all kinds that get thrown out in the media against the country and its leaders. And when all is done and said, most of the claims turn out to be lies and the people that propagated the falsehood will turn around and say - "how were we supposed to know that we were being deceived?". I hesitate to jump on this bandwagon again just to feel good because a Dem is the President and the one deciding on the war. BTW he was against wars before he was for wars!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. if you lose that bet, will you acknowledge it?
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Maybe because there are many others going on as well.
Credit for one? Ok. Debit for the rest???
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. "Credit for one? Ok. Debit for the rest???"
That works for me.

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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. Maybe it about the selectiveness of who we bomb.
If killing innocents with military hardware is cause for bombing countries then we should be expecting sorties over Washington any minute.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Theoretically, we have means to change that in this country.
However, I take your point, and thank you for it.

Innocents in this country being killed because of cuts to food stamps, low-income housing, heating assistance, etc., is just WRONG. But we have the means to protest it, and we aren't doing it.

Why is that?
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Protesting to whom?
The people we elect are the ones we put in charge to change the direction? Too bad they weren't much better then the other candidates.

Actually, our candidates have become so like the other side that now the other side sees no problem with becoming even more anti-progress.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Well,,that's funny.. the Egyptians protested a DICTATOR, the Libyans are doing the same.
But we can't.

???????????????????
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Wisconsin.?
The fact of the matter is until it hits the people personally they don't care. It is sad situation.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Then you've just contradicted yourself.
Too much of DU has become contention for the sake of being contentious.

Waste of valuable time and energy.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I haven't contridicted my self. I gave you the reson why people don't protest.
If it doesn't directly affect them then they aren't very likely to take to the streets. Just like in Wisconsin, until it hit the middle class and unions they were happy go lucky while other people suffered.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. My goodness. First you say its because it won't matter because of the people who are in power.
Then you say, "But look at Wisconsin".

Now you say if it doesn't directly affect them....

Please.

You want to claim victory in this exchange, go ahead. It makes no sense, and I am interested in the exchange of ideas, not winning/losing.

Bye now... I hope you rack up some other "wins".
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. The people won nothing in Wisconsin. The law is still going into effect.
It did however wake some people up who usually don't bother to think about how other people are less fortunate then themselves. Will it expand into something more? Don't know.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
10. Because many on the left and right are still looking for ways to detest him...
for very different reasons.

So stopping atrocity will be renamed "war for oil" or "support of people we don't know" or any other thing they can come up with.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
12. for at least some people, including some DUers, its because the people saved
were not Americans and its not our job to save non-Americans.

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Modern_Matthew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. Unrecc'd for sugarcoating war. nt
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. because here in america the republicans and the media frame the story
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 02:52 PM by spanone
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
19. When we accidently bomb a schoolyard it will be an 'international effort'
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 02:58 PM by WatsonT
when any good stories come out it's "Obamas war".

I wonder how much credit Bush is given for stopping the abuse of the Kurds at Saddams hands.

Point being: just because some good can come from it doesn't make it a good idea overall.

I could fire randomly in to the night and maybe hit a serial killer. If I do does that make me a hero?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. Tom Malinowsko, PNAC letter signer, CFR, Madeleine Albright's aide? Really now.
This is a man who recently wrote about renditions that "Under limited circumstances, there is a legitimate place".

Big words from the former Special Assistant to President Clinton, Senior Director for Foreign Policy Speechwriting at the National Security Council, speech-writer for Secretaries of State Albright and Christopher and former aide to Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

What a small world indeed.

PNAC Signatories - Lest We Forget
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
26. Don't worry Tom, The propagandist have invented the MASSACRES even if they did not happen
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gracchorumspes Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
27. Prevent atrocity? Is Gaddafi dead?
Have the rebels been thoroughly vetted? Don't pat yourselves on the back yet...
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
32. "If you negotiate with protesters you lose, but if you kill them you win."
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
33. Because the US needs to learn to mind its own fucking business
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 09:11 PM by and-justice-for-all
for once and let countries work out their own internal affairs.
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