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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 07:59 AM
Original message
I'm going to say this and this is not going to be popular:
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 08:04 AM by howard112211
The best thing, in the interest of "the people of Libya" (tm), would have been a clear and decisive quick victory for one side of the conflict, even if that side is Ghaddafi.

The worst thing is a stalemate/prolonged conflict.

Had the revolutionaries been able to achieve victory within the first two or three weeks, by swaying large parts of the population, that would definately been a good thing. But that has not occured. Fighting back and forth over cities, that are occupied by one side, and then by the other, and then by the first again is definately NOT in the interest of the people.

Arming one side, unless this, again, leads to a clear and decisive victory in a short time, is making things worse.

And yes, Ghaddafi announced that he would execute people. But in fact, that whole "going house to house" line suggests that he would have been "selective" about it. Horrible, but still better than a prolonged battle to take cities, back and forth.

Flame away.

If the West has any true interest in deciding this, then they need to send 100.000 ground troops, tomorrow, to do it. If not, then not.
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. "I do not think that phrase means what you think it means"
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. So you are in the John McCain camp. If Obama would have
jumped into Libya unilaterally two weeks earlier he would be criticized for going in alone. If we weren't involved today everyone including the Right and Left would be having a hissy fit over Gaddafi killing civilians and the USA doing nothing..
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
26. +1
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. I don't know. I think that's almost impossible to know.
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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. There are many strategic elements at play here. I may be naive, but I base my argument
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 05:35 PM by howard112211
off of my interpretation of the writings of Sun Tsu, combined with some of the stuff that General Clark and Secretary Gates have said, which suggest that they are thinking along the same lines.

Basically, there a quite a few historic strategists who would agree that the best strategy is always to achieve victory without engaging in actual battle. A party that is operating from a position of strength can often choose to not engage in actual combat, simply because the mere threat of being hit with overwhelming force can get an enemy to yield to ones demands. That, and also of course the insight that battle is always messy and will involve losses, which one wants to avoid.
If one is in posession of the means to completely overwhelm the enemy, then the enemy is likely to yield to the demands, whatever they may be. Or, another angle of course is, maybe it is possible to reach a diplomatic solution all together and avoid conflict in such a way. This option should always be pursued to the fullest.

The second best strategy, if the first one is not applicable, is to weaken the enemies position by undermining/destroying his alliances. An enemy with no allies cannot operate efficiently, and will soon lose support even from his loyalists. I suppose we are seeing a little bit of that in the Libya case.

The third best strategy is the first one which involves actual combat: It is destroying/immobilizing the enemies army. If the army of the enemy cannot be attacked directly, because the terrain is difficult or the enemy is holed up in his stronghold, this is not good. Furthermore this strategy can already be considered "not good" in itsself because it is messy and potentially involves a lot of losses on both sides. If one engages in this strategy, then the best thing to do is to achieve a complete and indisputable victory in as short a time as possible (duh), to minimize losses on both sides. Furthermore, all calculations, in terms of the actual amount of force required, should have been previously. This has been quoted poetically by Sun Tsu in the form of "The successfuly general wins, and then enters battle. The unsuccessful general enters battle and then tries to win." and also "If you know your strengths and weaknesses, and your enemies strengths and weaknesses, you will not be in danger. If you don't know these things you will be in danger." All facts should be clear beforehand: What the mission is. What plans are in place for all scenarios. What amount of force will be required to achieve these goals, and so on.

The fourth best, or second worst strategy is to attack enemy strongholds/cities. This will always be messy. Collateral damage happens, and the enemy is on sound terrain to mount his defense, so losses on both sides will be great. Furthermore, it is nearly impossible to do this without producing collateral damage.

The worst strategy of all is to besiege an enemy fortress. It is clear from the outset that such an act will always consume tremendous amounts of resources, and is unlikely to yield a decisive victory for one side, so over time the damage that both sides suffer will be great, with potentially no gain for either side.

What we are seeing in Libya is an army (the rebels) which are now operating from a position of weakness (no chain of command, no discipline, no equipment, and so on) facing off an enemy who is operating from a position of relative strength. Compared to NATO and the US he is weak, but compared to the rebels he isn't. If the rebels could have been able to gain large popular support quickly, could have tremendously have changed the outlook. But judging from the current state of things, it did not happen, at least not to the degree necessary to achieve victory.

The strategy of NATO has been to try to "level the playing field". I think this is a terrible strategy because what it means is moving from a scenario where one side wins decisively, to a scenario where that same side still wins, but at larger cost for both sides. In such a context, giving arms and aid to a side which will lose anyway, does not help any. It actually makes things worse, because the conflict will take longer, produce more fatalities, more collateral damage, and so on.

Actually, it seems like NATO has now pushed it to a stalemate, which is equivalent to the "worst strategy": A permanent state of besiegement of strongholds.

What this means is that it is probably a good idea to simply call the whole thing off, and reach a diplomatic solution. Even though that means the goal of "ousting Ghaddafi" will not be reached.

So, IMO, NATO has essentially two options now: Either negotiate a cease-fire agreement, or send a massive amount of ground troops to take Ghaddafi down, which would still amount to "second worst strategy" because it will involve attacking strongholds and thus produce a tremendous amount of collateral damage. Simply giving arms to the rebels, IMO, is a deeply stupid thing.

The problem at hand here however is: There are many interest groups who actually benefit from a negative outcome. The military industrial complex makes money not from quick victories, but from prolonged conflicts. So there are strong political incentives here to choose bad strategies.

Hope I making a little bit of sense. A lot of people will probably discover flaws in this reasoning. Just my 2 cents.

I may, of course, also be simply wrong and Ghaddafi will step down next week on his own. That would be fortunate.
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joe_sixpack Donating Member (655 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. The more I learn about the rebels.....
I have to ask who in their right mind thought they actually had a chance to defeat a trained army, even with our airpower supporting them? I see videos shot of them driving around desert roads in pickup trucks with rocket launchers on them. They cluster in groups, stopping now and then to apparently decide where to shoot at next. It's been said they haven't yet been able to stand and face any nominal armed opposition.

I feel for them and applaud their cause and determination, but I think it's sad that they may have been mislead into thinking they had a real possibility at success simply because of their earlier gains. I believe there's only two chances they have left right now. One, is if the Army turns on Ghaddfi or crosses over in large numbers. The other way is if a foreign ground force intervenes on their side. Even giving them arms at this point probably won't help unless we give them soldiers with them.

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Modern_Matthew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. And it would've been mainly rebels dying. Now civilians are at risk that weren't at risk before. nt
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. A quick victory for Ghaddafi and he would be slaughtering civilians right now
Defenseless ones. He swore he would take revenge on whoever rose up against him. I for one, don't think he was bluffing.
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yeah and saddam had WMD and was plotting to use them on the US
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Oh! For crying out loud!
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 05:51 PM by lunatica
That's a dumb analogy. Where are the lies of what Ghadaffi said. He announced it himself on television. The whole world heard him. Saddam never said he had WMDs.
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. mahmoud ahmadinejad said he wants to wipe israel off the map.
That sounds pretty serious. Why isn't we haven't bombed them yet?
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Ahmadinejad has spewed a lot of talk, Ghadaffi had actually slaughtered civilians.
Is that a distinction you find difficult to make? Let me help you ...
I want Michelle Bachmann to contract herpes from Sean Hannity. See, now I'm Ahmadinejad.
However, if I were to break into Ft. Detrich, MD, steal a particularly virulant strain of the herpes virus, inject it into Hannity, then knock him out, draw his blood, and shove that syringe up Michelle Bachmann's ass, then I would be Ghaddafi.
It's the difference between calling for something to happen, and actually causing it to occur.
Hope this helps.
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Damn it!
Stop giving me these dangerous ideas!
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Really? Why haven't the photos and video of the bodies been in the media?
Edited on Sat Apr-02-11 09:58 AM by Shagbark Hickory
There's always pictures. Every slaughtering in history and even the recent tsuquakey meltdown in japan has pictures.
Why haven't there been any pictures to confirm that slaughters have actually taken place?
Please note that I don't count the rebel warriors as civilians.

The president himself said that our intervention prevented the slaughter. It's my understanding that the slaughter hadn't yet occurred, making it the same kind of crazy talk that other dictators used when they're on the rag.
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Yeah, all those documented WMDs that were all over the news.
The two are completely different, no matter how much you wish they weren't.

Gaddafi promised to butcher every last one of the rebels.
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. All I'm saying is show some evidence.
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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Oh, I agree, quick victory for the rebels would have been much preferable.
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 05:48 PM by howard112211
Yes, Ghaddafi would definately have done executions.

For my further thoughts on the subject, see post #4 above.
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. Going house-to-house and "massacres" are akin to the "WMD" and "terrorist traning camp" threats of
the bush wars.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. If the rebels don't have a mass of popular support, why are we involved at all?
Early reports were that this was going to be like Egypt, Release 2.0. Now it's looking more like a regional conflict, one in which we have no business whatsoever getting involved, even if Gaddafi is a caricature of a tinpot dictator.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. He was low hanging fruit for the MIC. n/t
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I think that's what they thought was going to happen.
Unfortunately, I'm not so sure that's reality. Nobody has ever adequately explained who the "rebels" really are. With the low numbers of "rebels" that are actually fighting, it's even more murky (there appears to be SAS and Blackwater types as well as CIA). The new rebel council leaders are equally suspicious.

None of this looks or feels like low-hanging fruit.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I agree.This mess will get much worse before it gets better. n/t
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. Ya know, that just rings out like the piercing voice of reason, like little Cindy Lou Who
(who was no more than two...)

This is simply not as we have been led to believe, on any level.

If there was true, grassroots groundswell rage and disgust, this would have been over quite some time ago. It doesn't feel right on any level because it isn't the overwhelming movement it's been touted to be. Qaddafi's army isn't that large, and if it's doing this well, even when pinned down and subjected to withering suppressing fire, then just how unanimous can this be?

The stink factor is unmistakable.

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Snoutport Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. The French, luckily, decided to help when it was America struggling for freedom
but i do agree.... it only makes sense to do this if we intend to win. you don't try to stop a charging bull with a flyswatter.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. Ghaddafi is finished by now
He's lost all fear from his citizens. And that's crucial for any dictator.

There's no need for any intervention any more.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
24. Admiral Jacky Fisher: "The essence of war is violence, and moderation in war is imbecillity"
This is ridiculous. I'm against this incursion for many reasons, but war is not something you do by halves. This has the tiresome taste of everything Barack Obama does: ultramoderate, ever-accommodating politicking of the worst sort.

It's not really a war, it's a "Kinetic Military Action". We never really were leading it, scout's honor, but we passed the baton we never had to NATO, which is basically us anyway, and everybody knows it. It's just to protect civilians. We're not targeting Qaddafi. We're supporting ground operations with air-strikes, but it's all purely defensive as we spur the rebels into offensive mode.

There won't be any boots on the ground, there won't be this, there won't be that; it's a big mish-mash of all sorts of things we aren't going to do. We want to do it on the cheap and have our allies spend their money and fly their planes. We can't figure out whether to send arms, even though that's in violation of the Resolution. Oh, fine: we've got a previous resolution to hide behind. What-the-fuck-ever.

It's like a microcosm of the whole administration: plausible denial, non-committal side-stepping, lack of clear objectives and vague abstractions. This in an enterprise defined by its specificity and stark methodology.

Anything that now happens is his doing, and anything that goes wrong in the region will be fairly or unfairly linked to it. It's just idiotic.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
25. Why? Is nothing good worth fighting for?
And over a long term?

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