Why/how did man become the dominant sex in history....

[Green_Lantern]

I keep wondering why throughout history men were the ones dominant and in power.

At what point in history did women cede that authority.

[cliffordu]

1. Well....

:popcorn:

[LoZoccolo]

12. !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuhOj2dQTrk

[CoffeeCat]

43. LOL!!!

I don't know why...but that hit my funny bone.

:D Tanks!

[panader0]

2. It certainly hasn't happened in this household.

[SergeyDovlatov]

3. On average caveman is better at wielding a big club or a tree branch than a cavewoman

(pure assumption, I haven't met a caveman or cavewoman myself)

[Exultant Democracy]

10. Many anthropologist believe that hunter gatherer societies were fairly equitable

When agriculture emerged so did the reasons and means for treating people like chattel.

[CTyankee]

96. But I thought women invented agriculture...

did it just have some "unintended consequences"?

[me b zola]

126. i once read an article from an anthropologist mag

Said that women stayed behind with children as men went out to hunt because of the nursing thing. The women's gathering of nearby foods actually contributed many times over what the men did with their hunting.

Its all about the baby being attached to nurse. Men exploited that from the beginning and have never stopped.

[truedelphi]

152. My theory is that it has to do with religion

As there were many primitive peoples who did agriculture and yet still allowed the women to be in charge (Seneca tribe in New York area, for example.)

For whatever reason, a man- based religion came about and women accepted it. (Again for whatever reason.)

And that religion had to skew things pretty badly to gain its status. For instance - "God" went and fashioned woman out of one of Adam's ribs -which mythology exists perhaps to displant the notion that women give birth and therefore have more power?

[LoZoccolo]

4. A definition of "dominant" might produce more discussion.

[undeterred]

5. Testosterone.

Its some bad shit.

[Llewlladdwr]

21. Thank God for misanthropes! nt

[AngryAmish]

87. That is a terrible thing to say

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[cali]

a few basic facts- physical strength of men. women dying in childbirth

women having to tend to infants and young children.

[aSpeckofDust]

6. It's just hunter/gatherer.. could have gone the other way, aka lions. Females hunt and males, well..

they do their thing(protecting pride/etc).

[arcane1]

7. A primitive inheritance from our primate ancestors

one which we still haven't shrugged off yet.

[defendandprotect]

59. No -- male-supremacy is as unnatural as male violence -- has to be taught!

[seabeyond]

60. two teenage boys and watching them all these years... i am so buying the violence is taught, too.nt

[UndertheOcean]

8. testosterone ? bigger muscles ? simpler goal oriented brains ?

just some guesses

[Donald Ian Rankin]

9. It happened well before humans evolved - it's the case in most pack/herd animals, I believe.

So I think the implicit assumption in the question is wrong - it's not a matter of women ceding power. Quite the reverse, there is less gender inequality in modern Western societies than at practically any point in human history, and I think it likely that it will fall still lower in the future.

[SoCalDem]

140. Yes.. females of any species who have to nurture & raise young for a long period of time

are vulnerable. The males of those species may have evolved a "dominance", in exchange for "mating rights". Since humans can reproduce all year (unless starvation puts fertility on hold), a female human could be rearing 6 or 7 very young children .

Gathering, near the home-base, as a supplement to hunting was about all she could do, unless she wanted to leave/had to leave those valuable children unattended and available to predators. The male(s) who went in search of the high-protein prey, made themselves invaluable to the family. If they failed at a time when nothing gathered was available, the family would perish.

Culture took it one step further and put the males in charge (in most societies) because they were physically stronger, and seen as the protector/provider. Females with lots of children probably were in no position to complain about it very much.

Until family planning enters into a society (unless there is a royalty thing going on), women are not very powerful. Becoming powerful requires time, energy & being able to plan long-term as one consolidates their circle of supporters. Women who are sequestered for decades as they raise children have little access to society beyond their own immediate circle.

[sinkingfeeling]

11. You do know that early mankind first worshipped the Goddess. Men were awed by the

fact that women reproduced.

[Llewlladdwr]

19. Please post your proof of this.

It's an interesting theory but as far as I know there's squat to actually prove that this was ever the case.

[Green_Lantern]

26. this backs the female goddess worship...

http://books.google.com/books?id=qcSsoJ0IXawC&pg=PA118#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Llewlladdwr]

30. But it doesn't prove it.

In fact, what I read at the link supports my assertion that this is not a settled issue. The fact is that at this time there are no records or conclusive evidence of a matriarchical human society existing at any point in the past.

[Green_Lantern]

40. I'm not saying society was ever matriarchial...

Just more equal.

[Llewlladdwr]

47. That's a different argument.

And I fully agree that throughout history some cultures have had greater equality between the sexes than others. However, I doubt that there has ever been a time when women were more equal to men than in today's Western society.

[seabeyond]

48. maybe in those more matriarchal societies they recognized a worth of both gender

so it was not a matter of MORE equal than men.

ya know

[Llewlladdwr]

52. Agreed.

But the OP was asking when men took control of society. My contention is that men have ALWAYS controlled society, and that there has never been a society DOMINATED by women.

[Scout]

27. there is very little "proof" cuz they cut down the oak groves, destroyed any places

of worship, and then belittled the symbols of same worship as simple fertility figurines, and created the christian devil from the Lord of Night and Day.

[Llewlladdwr]

35. How would this apply to Asia and Africa?

Shouldn't there be evidence from those areas since they've been largely unaffected by Christianity until the last few hundred years?

[seabeyond]

33. there is no "proof" of any of the guesses... nt

[Llewlladdwr]

36. Then let's accept that.

There's no proof that a matriarchical human civilization has existed any where at any time in the past. Why is that so hard to say?

[seabeyond]

38. i am not agruing anything. lets accept that there is as likely a case that it existed as didnt.

some believe all the evolutionary behavior bullshit.... because it reinforces male dominance and patriarchy. they even go so far as calling it science.

i am so ok, with saying it is all guesses and that much of the conclusions from evolutionary behavior is as wrong as not, seeing it is coming from guesses of males...

[Llewlladdwr]

42. But the two cases aren't just as likely.

There is no record of a matriarchical society in our past.

None at all.

There are lots of records of patriarchical societies.

Logically, it would seem that it's much more likely that any human society in the past would be patriarchical than matriarchical.

[seabeyond]

46. when i am talking about

the evolutionary behavorial psychology it is not talking about is there patriarchy vs matriarchy. i do think there are places and periods in history of matriarchy, i am just not educated or well versed enough to call it out. and not gonna do the research. not what i was challenging.

[Llewlladdwr]

49. Okay.

Fair enough. Thank you for the conversation though.

[seabeyond]

50. surely.... nt

[seabeyond]

53. i havent perused all, but here is a bet from an author a poster suggested below

For many people these stories are merely religious or poetic allegories. But they contain important clues to a fundamental cultural shift during our prehistory. Indeed, new archaeological discoveries (coupled with reinterpretations of older excavations) show that while the earliest cradles of civilization -- going back many thousands of years before Sumer-- were not utopian societies in the sense of perfect societies, they were societies organized along very different lines from what came later. As the British archaeologist James Mellaart reports from his excavations of Catal Huyuk (the largest early agrarian or Neolithic site ever found), their characteristic social structure appears to have been generally egalitarian. He writes how the comparative size of houses, the nature of their contents, and the "funerary gifts" found in graves show that there were no extreme differences in status and wealth.

Data from Catal Huyuk and other Neolithic sites also indicate that in these societies, where women were priestesses and craftspeople, the female was not subordinate to the male. Although the sacred union of female and male was an important religious mystery, the powers that create and govern the universe were generally depicted as a goddess rather than a god.

Finally, dispelling the notion that war is natural, there is a paucity of fortifications as well as an absence in their extensive and considerably advanced art of the scenes so ubiquitous in later art-- of "noble warriors" killing one another in baffles, of gods and men raping women, of "glorious conquerors" dragging back prisoners in chains.

But the archaeological record also shows that, following a period of chaos and almost total cultural disruption, the cultural evolution of societies that worshipped the life-generating and nurturing powers of the universe - in our time still symbolized by the ancient "feminine" chalice or grail-was interrupted. There now appeared on the prehistoric horizon invaders from the peripheral areas of our globe (from the arid steppes of the north and barren deserts of the south) who ushered in a very different form of social organization. As the University of California archaeologist Marija Gimbutas wrote, these were people who literally worshipped "the lethal power of the blade" -- the power to take rather than give life that is the ultimate power to establish and enforce rankings of domination.

http://www.ru.org/71eisler.htm

[Llewlladdwr]

63. But again, this is all speculation.

And what I read at your link indicates that the alternative being postulated is not a matriarchy but rather a more egalitarian relationship between the sexes. I agree that there have been cultures in the past that had more equality between the sexes and there have been those with less. What I'm saying is that at no time in the past is there any conclusive evidence of a matriarchy.

[seabeyond]

65. but that it is male dominence is as speculative. so it cannot be argued by you anyway. nt

[Llewlladdwr]

70. No, what I'm saying is that male dominance of society is a well documented fact.

In fact, I'll go further and say that in every instance we're aware of men have been the dominant gender. It's only in today's modern Western culture that this is changing on a large scale.

[seabeyond]

81. it is only well documented from a certain point, not the beginning of time. nt

[defendandprotect]

57. They continue to find the buried goddess ... arftifacts -- of course it's true --

All life begins as female - as well.

Some difference, however, these were female-centered societies --

there was worship of a goddess -- but also male gods.

[Llewlladdwr]

67. "All life begins as female ". What does this mean?

Are you claiming that at some point a human fetus undergoes a DNA-level change from female to male?

[defendandprotect]

86. Common knowledge now ...

there is a point when -- with the proper trigger to switch to maleness --

that the female genitals drop and become the penis/testicles.

Difference is testerone running thru the brain --

You'll find a lot of info about that on the internet --


Men have always been anxious for one to create an artificial womb --

This is a central part of male war on nature -- that they were not given the power to

create life as females were!

They continued to study how to create more males, seeking the "trigger" --

at one point they found it, but the males couldn't procreate!

[Llewlladdwr]

104. I'm not sure I understand you.

As I understand fetal development there is a point where sexual differentation has not yet occured. Up to that point the genitalia develop in a similar physical fashion for both males and females. However, for normal individuals there is never a point where they are genetically female and then become male. They are genetically male from the get go. I, as a male, have never had a vagina, even in the womb.

Also, female humans do not 'create' life. They carry and incubate a fetus, but it still takes a member of each gender to start the process. A society without males will be just as barren as one without females.

Also, could you provide more info regarding this statement: "They continued to study how to create more males, seeking the "trigger" -- at one point they found it, but the males couldn't procreate!" I'd very much like to read further on this. Thanks in advance!

[Lorien]

85. That's sort of like asking for proof that man ever engaged in cannibalism

it's a well established in historical record through archeological findings. Try Google.

[Llewlladdwr]

99. You are exactly correct!

Cannibalism amongst humans is a very well documented historical fact.

Matriarchy is not.

[sinkingfeeling]

100. Even the prophets of the Old Testament mention godess worship.

“Israel’s sins will be forgiven only when the stones of pagan altars are ground up like chalk, and no more symbols of the Goddess Asherah or incense altars are left” (Is 27:9).

http://www.womenpriests.org/classic/swidler3.asp


The earliest evidence we have of human religious activity in the Old World points strongly and unambiguously to the worship of the Goddess— the divine was first worshiped as female. The archeological excavations at the upper paleolitic levels have produced innumerable female statuettes that are either figurines of the Goddess or at least are attempts at sympathetic magic, endeavoring to induce the fertility that all life depended on.(1) There is no male God at this early period.(2) As the paleolithic period gave way to the neolithic the worship of the Goddess became even more vigorous and explicit. All of the Old World areas that developed major civilizations, i.e., complex societies in which towns and cities and the differentiation of culture that accompanies them, show massive evidence of having initially been Goddess worshiping. That includes the Indus valley, the Near East, Old Europe, i.e., the Balkans, Asia Minor and the Eastern Mediterranean islands, and Egypt.(3)

The gradual shift away from the total dominance of the Goddess (except perhaps with Egypt, whose history is even more complex than the others) to the participation of a clearly subordinate male God was connected with the development of animal husbandry, whence the role of paternity became apparent. There never was any question about the female’s essential role in bringing new life into the world; but the role of the male and sex were not always so obvious. Still, even at this stage the male God played a vastly subordinate role vis a vis the Goddess.(4)

[roxiejules]

162. Nova video about the Mother Goddess

God had a wife:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_qerpl2ADE

[Raksha]

20. I'm surprised many here don't realize that,

at least of the people who have posted so far. The earliest cultures were matrifocal, not only during the hunting and gathering phase of human development but well into the early agricultural period. Of the artifacts surviving from the Stone Age, ALL you find are goddess figures. There are no figurines of male gods.

The patriarchal phase of culture didn't start until about 5000 years ago, and it didn't come about all at once. I think some folks here need to read When God Was a Woman by Merlin Stone to bring them up to speed. The idea that primitive societies were patriarchal became obsolete in the 1950s, or at least I thought it did.

[Llewlladdwr]

28. "Goddess Figures"?

There's just as much evidence that they were stone age porn. Again, I ask for your proof that early human civlization was matriarchical. And no, "When God was a Woman" is conjecture, not proof. This is far from a settled issue.

[defendandprotect]

64. And are you dismissing fossils as "porn" as well?

:rofl: :rofl:

[Llewlladdwr]

68. Are you claiming that these female figurines are fossils? nt

[defendandprotect]

82. In a sense that's exactly what artifacts are -- !! HISTORY -- !!

[Llewlladdwr]

97. Cripes.

Really? There's really no difference between a fossil, which is produced by natural processes, and a figurine produced by humans? You don't feel that these two very different types of objects tell us very different things about the world?

[defendandprotect]

154. What I'm saying to you is they are both HISTORY ... what's a china tea cup, or a bowl dug up?

It's all history --

[Raksha]

102. Early human civilization wasn't matriarchal in the sense that men were subordinate to women,

but they were matrilinear and matrifocal, in the sense that the Mother Goddess, called by different names in different cultures, was the primary deity. The societies were egalitarian. Although there might be distinct social roles for men and women, these were not rigidly enforced.

The monarch for example was usually (not always) male, because the role of king seems to have evolved from that of war leader, reinforcing my belief that patriarchy itself developed out of the necessities of war. The Goddess-worshipping societies were peaceful for the most part. Compare the matrifocal Minoan society with militaristic Athens and especially Sparta.

[Llewlladdwr]

110. I say it wasn't matriarchal at all.

My assertion is that all known human cultures have been patriarchal, and there is no conclusive evidence that worship of a Mother Goddess as the primary diety of a society ever existed. Even the Minoans had male dieties.

[Runework]

145. this is extremely speculative

we don't really know the structures of "early human civilization". Some people devise elaborate ideas based simply on what could be fertility symbols, or charms, or anything.

For Minoa though the evidence is certainly interesting, but stating it as outright fact is overreach.

[elehhhhna]

111. MANY Gods were female. One of my faves: Tauert

Yes, she's a pregnant hippoheaded and pretty powerful back in the day...

[Llewlladdwr]

112. But not every depiction of a female is a goddess.

Especially when said female is naked.

[elehhhhna]

122. Well no shit, or the Sports Illust. Swimsuit Cover Girl would be considered GOD

when all our crap is uncovered a thousand years from now.

And GFarrah Fawcett woudl totally be the GOD of the late 1970's.

[roxiejules]

161. Bible's admission that the goddess Asherah was worshiped

http://news.discovery.com/history/god-wife-yahweh-asherah-110318.html


"Also significant, Stavrakopoulou believes, "is the Bible's admission that the goddess Asherah was worshiped in Yahweh's Temple in Jerusalem. In the Book of Kings, we're told that a statue of Asherah was housed in the temple and that female temple personnel wove ritual textiles for her."

J. Edward Wright, president of both The Arizona Center for Judaic Studies and The Albright Institute for Archaeological Research, told Discovery News that he agrees several Hebrew inscriptions mention "Yahweh and his Asherah."

"Asherah was not entirely edited out of the Bible by its male editors," he added. "Traces of her remain, and based on those traces, archaeological evidence and references to her in texts from nations bordering Israel and Judah, we can reconstruct her role in the religions of the Southern Levant."

[opihimoimoi]

32. Stone did some awesome research in composing her work...its Iconic imho

Them Levites stormed bibical cities to loot, plunder, rape, and kill...

The target was the same as ours....other tribes...those tribes had an open society...men and women happy...much wine and good times.

women could divorce, own business, etc

Until the Levites and the Hebrews(Male dom'd)came into the picture...wanting the Land of milk and Honey...they weent into genocide.

thus...the Male domination replaced the open society...My Heathen Kahuna tole me....

you can get her book by typing the title

[AngryAmish]

92. The cradle of civilization was not ancient Isreal and Judea

Whither China and India? Samarakand?

[opihimoimoi]

105. Fertile Crescent, India, Africa, are some of the early birds....

long before Isreal, Judea...

[opihimoimoi]

106. Early peoples had Women in power positions...they were smarter in running things

until them partriots came along...all Male Decisions

[Llewlladdwr]

119. Then why isn't the world dominated by matriarchies?

Serious question. If female-led societies are superior to male-led societies then why aren't there any existant examples of the former?

[opihimoimoi]

128. Women are smarter in terms of Stability....not raw power....

[defendandprotect]

61. Thank you -- and it does point to a deficiency of info reaching DU -- !!! Help!!

:)

[patrick t. cakes]

170. I would say the mystery religions...

of ancient Rome were the end of the line for matriarchy. Very patriarchal society
enamored with the Mother Goddesses (Isis, Magna Mater, etc..)which eventually lead to
the transition into

the pure patriarchy of Christianity. I agree it didn't come about all at once.

[Matariki]

173. Merlin Stone is almost famous for her sloppy research.

And I'm saying that as someone who generally supports these ideas.

[WinkyDink]

13. Because they could.

[H2O Man]

14. Respectfully disagree.

It has not always/only been that way.

[Green_Lantern]

15. so when did it change

?

[Solomon]

45. It changed when people finally figured out "fatherhood"

When people were promiscuious they only knew who the mothers were. There was no concept of fatherhood. That's why every primitive society had totems. Totems were a way of stopping incest from happening, i.e. certain totems could only mate with others. In those days, there were no "fathers". Brothers and uncles played that role. Society had to be matriarchal because mothers were the known parent. At some point, they began to be able to trace who the male parent was and males began to dominate.

[Llewlladdwr]

56. I think you mean matrilineal.

As in a culture where descent is traced through the mother. The thing is, even in these societies men dominate the political, religious and economic leadership positions.

[Solomon]

118. I think it was matriarchal and matrilineal.

You can't discount the fact that females nourished the babies, made the houses (nest) etc. Regarded as the literal source of life, etc.

[Llewlladdwr]

120. I don't discount that at all, as far as it goes.

I still contend that men held most of the positions of leadership and power, even in these societies.

[defendandprotect]

66. Animal husbandry was the clue ... however, females contribute more DNA to birth -- 57% vs 43% ....

when you consider mitochondria --

Plus carrying the developing life in their bodies for 10 months --

Breastfeeding -- and usually caring for the child.

The female egg also seems to supply the intelligence in fertilization/conception,

as well!!

[Llewlladdwr]

16. You might try this book.

"Our Kind: Who We Are, Where We Came From, Where We Are Going" by Marvin Harris.

[dynasaw]

17. When they realized

1.they had a role in procreation

2.agriculture (the iron age and the use of iron plows, projectile weapons etc.) created surplus and men accumulated "wealth" to be passed on only to their offspring and not kids fathered by itinerant males (leading to control of females)

3.when god the mother became god the father, thereby becoming the ultimate authority for everything

4. better weapons and strategies for war where females became captives and collaterals of war

5. that those who control the means of production would have the upper hand.

Only some of the factors that have historically been said to have created gender imbalances.

[defendandprotect]

69. Those were mainly manipulations by males .... some think male violence was triggered by famine...

causing males to attack peaceful communities -- agricultural areas.

After that, male violence had its way!

Since then we've been a world dependent upon "the bird with one wing."

[Warpy]

It happened around the time they realized there

was a connection between sex and childbirth. There's nothing like rape, forced pregnancy and childbirth to slow a woman down.

Why do you think they're freaking out over birth control and abortion?

[patrick t. cakes]

115. I wonder how long women knew about the connection,

before men finally caught on. my guess is eons. ;)

[Warpy]

129. Remember, Eve didn't get into trouble

for eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It's only when Adam did that the fall happened.

It's all allegory. However, I've felt that particular part might have had a grain of truth in it. There was knowledge that Eve could handle. Once Adam got it, he fucked everything up with it.

[patrick t. cakes]

166. I find this subject fascinating...

I plan on making it my summer reading, after graduation.

What are your thoughts on Lilith, the woman Adam couldn't "control"?

[Warpy]

177. I'm Lilith's descendent

My mother's earliest memory is of being half walked, half carried in a Suffragette march in NYC with my grandmother and great grandmother.

I'm the last of a very long line of uppity women.

[Lynx]

18. I don't want to venture a guess

But I don't cede anything to a bunch of big hairy fools who have no notion that their actions have consequences. And who say dumb things, and bury their heads in the sports page.
Besides, I much prefer the company of cats.

[EOTE]

23. Hey! I'm not hairy!

And I may be a big fool, but I know about cause and effect.

[dmallind]

41. oh the irony....

But I don't cede anything to a bunch of big hairy fools who have no notion that their actions have consequences. And who say dumb things, and bury their heads in the sports page.
Besides, I much prefer the company of cats.

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. Unintentional irony is the best kind. n/t

[Green_Lantern]

22. interesting theory..

When one social grouping won a war against another they killed all the rival males and enslaved the women. After centuries of that only 1 in a 1000 women wasn't a slave.

[JustAnotherGen]

24. Shhhh

Don't let my boyfriend know he's supposed to be in charge! :rofl:

[Tiggeroshii]

25. Cause we're more awesome

...


:spray:

[Quantess]

29. Brute force to back it up.

There may be other reasons, but Bigger and Stronger is the main reason.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

31. Religion

Look how women are demonized in religion throughout history.

Oh, Sky Cake, why are you so delicious?

[defendandprotect]

71. Exactly -- the Old Testament was written by Hebrews to cement patriarchy ....

[Angry Dragon]

34. It was so written in the Book of Alien

[Sheepshank]

37. brute strength...nothing more nothing less

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

39. Until relatively recently, humans only had physical means and simple tools to execute survival.

Men are generally bigger, faster, stronger, and very goal-oriented.

The playing field was very uneven before the past few enturies and thousands of years of habit and practices just won't dissapear overnight.

[defendandprotect]

74. Rather, it is believed that males and females used to be roughtly same size ....

the "Hollywood pairing" which has given us males about 20% larger than females

has also created overly large people of both genders --

and little people of both genders!!

Women would have had more body fat making them larger -- as well.

I think you could more clearly see that where people haven't been immediately

exposed to the American diet, for one. Japan, Asian countries -- and Puerto Rico.

Puerto Rican males were quite smaller than the females.

[RegieRocker]

142. Fodder

[defendandprotect]

159. More likely chemicals, pesticides, homormones introduced into our foods ....

you can see its effect even on Asians now living in America --

[One_Life_To_Give]

44. Pre-Aboriginal??

Not my field so I really have no idea but; I would expect that Patriarchy would be common to those cultures who share a common ancestral culture at some point in history. And would be markedly different in cultures which split intto isolation prior to that time.

So I would think Patriarchy was in place when he Pyramids were built. And further back still the Aboriganies have elements of Patriarchy. Which could mean that Patriarchy goes back over 40,000 years.

[Blue Owl]

51. Riane Eisler's "The Chalice and The Blade" would be a recommended read

http://www.rianeeisler.com/chalice.htm

[seabeyond]

58. Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference

Cordelia Fine

this is another woman i want to read.

http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-Difference/dp/0393068382

the little i persed of your author sounds interesting. thanks

[Taverner]

54. He guarded the grain nt

[defendandprotect]

55. More than 50,000 years ago -- and via MALE VIOLENCE ...

[Odious justice]

62. Woman ceded the power in the spring of 1641.

It happened in Ireland. In a small pub outside of Dublin called the "Cranky Duck". There was some finger food served and everyone had a pretty good time. Later the men died in wars.

[Llewlladdwr]

75. I believe we have a thread winner! nt

[PassingFair]

95. I thought it was on the fields at RunnySead....

I think that predates the "Cranky Duck Accords"

[Odious justice]

101. No, that's where men agreed to not argue that there was anything

more painful than childbirth. This long held rule may be reconsidered in anticipation of having to sit through a Palin Primary.

[PassingFair]

103. I know a few who missed that bit of history...my husband passed a kidney stone last night.

His phone conversations with his friends and
brothers today...sounded like a bunch of
'Nam vets!

[Odious justice]

114. I've know women who have passed stones

they say child birth is worse. I'm not going to argue. Sure looks painful.

[PassingFair]

116. I was going to say "Welcome to DU", but I see you've been here for a while...

I'm in SCS.....

:hi:

[seabeyond]

117. i had nurse bob. so i had no complaints. loved my nurse bob. nt

[Mimosa]

72. Bodily strength plain and simple.

Men really have more physical strength and endurance.

[seabeyond]

88. not buying the endurance. studies go both ways. males in strenght, certainly

The capacity to perform isometric and dynamic muscle contractions at different forces has been measured in two separate groups of subjects: 25 men and 25 women performed sustained isometric contractions of the knee-extensor muscles of their stronger leg to fatigue, at forces corresponding to 80%, 50% and 20% of the maximum voluntary force of contraction (MVC). The second experimental model involved a bilateral elbowflexion weight lifting exercise. Eleven women and 12 men performed repetitions at loads corresponding to 90%, 80%, 70%, 60% and 50% of maximum load (lRM), at a rate of 10 · min–1 to the point of fatigue. Males were stronger (p<0.001) than females in both the static (675±120 N vs 458±80 N; mean±SD) and dynamic (409±90 N vs 190±33 N) contractions. Isometric endurance time of the males at a force corresponding to 20% of MVC was less than that of the females (180±51 s vs 252±56 s; p<0.001) but there was no difference between the sexes at 50% or 80% of MVC. Similarly, when the sexes were compared using dynamic elbow-flexion exercise, the female subjects were able to perform a greater number of repetitions than males at loads of 50% (p<0.005), 60% (p<0.001) and 70% (p<0.025) of lRM, but there was no difference between the sexes at loads of 80% or 90% of lRM. The results suggest that the endurance capacity of women is greater than that of men in both isometric and dynamic muscular exercise when the work load is relatively low compared with maximum; at higher forces, there is no difference between the sexes in endurance performance.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t1q57468k21q1213/
____________________

i swam competitively for 15 yrs. male/female teams. same work outs. together. guys had faster times, but we did the same work outs.

[TayTay]

73. Because a pregnant woman is vulnerable

Human gestation and birth is difficult and, for much of human history, extremely dangerous for women. A pregnant woman was vulnerable to attack and to sickness and to dying during childbirth. Males could move about unencumbered after insemination without the pitfalls that women faced. It is not hard to trace the development of societal norms from that.

The question is, what happens when much of what caused the weakness of women is now solved? Can we powershare now?

[defendandprotect]

77. Childbirth would have been seen as an act of creation -- until the power shift ....

As we still say now, pregnancy is a "creative disability" -- !!! :)

Human gestation and birth is difficult and, for much of human history, extremely dangerous for women.

Actually, the story of the Garden of Eden tells the story of a power shift as Eve is smeared.

And it predicts that childbirth will be BECOME hell for women. How does anyone know this?

Evidently, because nature's plants which would have enabled easier childbirth were being destroyed?

Keep in mind that NATURE is pro-choice -- and supplied myriad plants which permitted women to

have high control over childbirth -- contraception, ending pregnancies, fertility, etal.

All of those plants and knowledge were destroyed. Plants are our medicines!

Without plants there are no medicines.

Women were the health care givers and those with the knowledge of plants as medicines.

Patriarchy, in order to hold power over women destroyed them --

Basically, patriarchs are the destroyers -- only way they can hold power as we see with the

rise of the right today!

Today -- what is the cure for "the bird with one wing"?

[Spike89]

76. Layers and layers of assumption in this thread

First, as someone else pointed out, you need to define "dominant" and in power. Environment has played the biggest role in the formation of societies until literally a mere blink in our collective eye. Women have children (duh!) but even though most of our grandmother's had no real choice, we have trouble keeping that in mind when discussing the past. Women in the 1800's didn't stay "barefoot and pregnant" because of some evil plot or systemic oppression by men--they were pregnant because there was virtually no safe, effective birth control available, AND, to survive on a sustenance-level farm, you needed a flock of worker/children. Judging things then, by today's standards is foolish.
Pre-industrial revolution times are still not that far removed, but applying current societal mores (hell, even judging which sex was "dominant") to conditions then is even more stupid than blaming men for large farm families. Not many people of either sex had the luxury of making choices in careers, or really any choices at all. For almost everyone, life was short, brutish, and the misery (and joy) was pretty much shared between the sexes.
True, if you were lucky enough to be an aristocrat, you might have an easier time of it if you were a man, but the reality is that despite the biological disadvantages women had in pre-industrial, pre-birth control days, there have been plenty of strong female leaders in western/european history.

It all comes back to defining dominant, and as always, it makes a huge difference who is doing the defining.

[defendandprotect]

79. No -- Nature is pro-choice -- women were pregnant because plants and info were destroyed by males...

Keep in mind that in the beginning males would have lived their lives understanding

the power and wisdom of women -- in fact, they told time by women's bodies -- their

menstrual cycles!!

There were 13 months in a calendar year -- 28 day months!

That's why after the violent overthrow of women, "13" became an unmentionable number!!

And it was the total overturning not only of women, but a male war on NATURE!!

Why? See: Mary Shelly's "Frankenstein" --

And keep in mind that it is still organized patriarchal religion fighting to try to

regain control over women and reproduction!

Women have been deprived of these choices because of male violence -- and male destruction

of their wisdom - knowledge of plants, etal.

And, yes, from the beginning destroying this knowledge and women's wisdom was a conspiracy

in order for males to control females.

Wisdom and intelligence, information, truth -- are all enemies of patriarchy.


Some wonderful books to read --

Will try to supply some info on this later -- have to dig thru a journal or two!

:)

[tritsofme]

108. Wow, what a bizarre rant.

Where can I can get some of that good plant?

[Union Scribe]

124. The contact buzz is enough for me

This thread is a trip!

[Green_Lantern]

109. so you oppose all industrialization and use of fire?

nt

[defendandprotect]

157. I oppose destruction of plants which are our medicines --

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. It's more likely that a 28 day month was attributable to the lunar cycle.

Jesus.

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

158. You think men were studying the skies, planets, moon while they were in caves?

[lumberjack_jeff]

169. Yeah. It's a guy thing. n/t

[defendandprotect]

174. Women and the moon are in sync --

often the Native Americans would call menstruation "Moonwalking" -- !!

There's also a period of time when the moon seems to bleed --

and it is compared with women's menstruation.

[Codeine]

147. The lunar month is based - obviously enough - on the moon,

not upon the menstrual cycle of women, which is entirely too variable to base a calendar on.

[lumberjack_jeff]

176. And led to many arguments about what to name the months, and on which day it should start. n/t

[apocalypsehow]

179. Gibberish. n/t.

[FormerDittoHead]

78. Here's a video of Eugene Weber explaining it.

http://www.learner.org/resources/series58.html

Click on the first episode, skip to 14:40 to start to answer this question.

Then, if you're impatient, skip to 20:55.

edited for the more specific reference at 20:55

[defendandprotect]

80. Back to try to check that out -- Meanwhile, how about a clue or two?

[FormerDittoHead]

91. I can't say it as well, but it's as a result of agriculture.

Hunter and gatherers were pretty much egalitarian.

But farming changed everything.

1) Growing crops, esp using the plow, required great strength.

2) Fields of food and domesticated animals needed protection from raiders. Again, strength was needed.

3) Women kept busy producing children as survival of the tribe depended upon having as many people as possible to work and protect the fields, etc.

[defendandprotect]

155. Doesn't sound right -- it is women who developed agriculture, plantings....

-- though don't think that necessarily included domesticating animals

as "food" which I think men did long before -- perhaps dairy?

I think that was the "sin" of the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden --

slaughtering of animals.

Will try to find time to watch the video -- my impression also wasn't that

the women so ripped up the fields in using plows.

Until famine seems to have struck an area behind Turkey, don't think they generally

had to worry about "raiders."

Of course, these food sources always existed -- you went to the food.

This would have been a means of having food outside of your door no matter where you

went.

Even today there's controversy over what has been done in loss of top soil to the

wide and broad and almost limitless plowing of fields.

Also, don't know if any have begun to reverse it, but generally the idea of letting the

old crop stay and wither, enriching the fields.

[Lorien]

83. Upper body strength, testosterone and religion

watch the movie "Agora" (streaming on Netflix).

[LostInAnomie]

84. Farming

With the role of gatherer being no longer necessary to provide the bulk of food the balance of power shifted.

[Dollface]

89. Males were stronger and so they could get what they wanted by force.

In response to this, females developed larger brains and greater intuition in order to deal with them.
And that is how ladies' night came to be.

[seabeyond]

93. colbert last night, with the dude going after womens free drink night? so funny

the dude after feminists.... hates feminists

cause... lol lol

his male order russian prostitute bride left him

bah hahahaha

[slackmaster]

90. LOL!

Everyone knows that women are the dominant sex because they own half the money and all the...

[ieoeja]

94. Bigger and stronger (on average). n/t

[Yo_Mama]

98. I wasn't aware they were. n/t

[TuxedoKat]

107. There is a book called

The Alphabet and the Goddess by Leonard Schlain which has an interesting theory about this and why it might be changing.

[Rex]

113. Since traditionally, men don't let women go off and fight in wars.

At least not to the point they were/are all armed enough to take down the men, collectively speaking. It is all about who controls the weapons. Also men are more aggressive and violent, making the nurture side of a relationship almost exclusively a womans role in all parts of society.

Weapons, aggressive, some would even say reckless.

Pretty easy to see why.

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. The latest tactic in our evil plot

Send the women into the workforce to support us. Bwahahaha.

Employed Men


Employed Women

[Hosnon]

123. Without ever having studied the subject, the simplest explanation to me

is strength.

Otherwise unresolved disputes are resolved with force (even today, for example, if you sue someone, win, and they still refuse to pay, the judge sends the people packing heat to physically take your property).

[OxQQme]

130. Mose's on the mountain

demanded destruction to all that differed from his edicts.

Including women and children.

Stoned them.

Burnt them.

Cut their heads off in public squares.

Prior to that event, for many thousands of years, goddess Inanana/Ishtar was the venerated speaker for the
various minor gods (also known as nefilim) who arrived out of 'the heavens' through thousands of years and
were identified by different names through the many cultures.

Marduk got'er done with those stone tablets fer shur.

The printing press distributed the priestly propaganda to a larger readership.

Tired of those nattering beyotches calling all the shots, and owning the house.



To bury one's head in the sand and refuse to accept millenia of archeological evidence of a previously
matriarchal society is defeating a wider view.

And is self imposed.

[wickerwoman]

131. I suspect its because so many women died in childbirth.

I'm more familiar with the classical period, but I think at the time the average age for men to marry was 26 or 27 and for women it was 13 or 14. Most men would have three or four wives because so many of them died in childbirth. And to keep land in the family, if the husband died in war, his wife would marry his brother or uncle, so it was quite common for young girls to marry thirty or forty year old men. So if you're 16 and your husband is 42 (and the kind of man who would have survived to 42 in the ancient world), of course you're not going to be the one running the show.

I haven't read any studies for a long time, but I suspect if you looked at population trends in the ancient world, you would see that after the age of about 16 or 17, there would be more men than women, making women capable of bearing children a valuable asset for society. This would have let to their commodification and to the continuing trend we have to see women as objects.

[Blue_Tires]

132. Because we can piss while standing...

No more complicated than that!

[seabeyond]

136. i COULD piss standing, too, if i wanted.

bet messy, but i could do it.

[Nye Bevan]

133. I was going to reply... but my wife just asked me to take out the garbage.

Be right back.

[lumberjack_jeff]

134. Apparently the answer is "on the day history started"

Because DU sez that clearly prehistoric people worshiped women in a happy matriarchal utopia.

But the definition of "prehistoric" kind of makes that assertion questionable.

[Warren DeMontague]

135. Humanity once existed in a perfect, harmonious, equitable state, before the patriarchy.

Humanity once existed in a perfect state of harmony with nature, before the development of Earth-destroying technological civilization.

Humanity once existed in a perfect state of sinless grace, before Adam ate the apple that Satan tempted him with.

Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Rinse. Repeat.

[Zorra]

137. Doesn't matter. You just keep on believin' that, hon. nt

[RegieRocker]

139. Fantasies abound but factual reality escapes.

[seabeyond]

141. you sound as if you are actually cheering (or something) patriarchy.

dominence of one gender over another.

really?

[RegieRocker]

144. Actually no one sex is dominate completely in anything. There are

many factors to consider on a individual scale, such as genetics. In a overall view, that however is another matter. Some indian cultures the women were the owners of all property and governed. The men hunted and fished. In todays society women still hold the key position in social matters, this includes the family. Dominance is not across the board for either sex. To think otherwise is foolish by any sex. That was my point.

[seabeyond]

146. thanks for the clarification. nt

[RegieRocker]

148. No problem. We were probably thinking the same thing about each other

and now we still do but on a good note. :-)

[seabeyond]

151. mmmm

i am not into anyone being deemed superior to only have an inferior. i cannot do it.

i am

a libra, afterall

everyone must be balanced, or i go mad

[RegieRocker]

153. Well I certainly don't want you to go mad. Enough of that happens

on here already.

[RegieRocker]

138. This is a april fools fake question right?

[VioletLake]

143. Child bearing and rearing as well as being physically smaller

frustrated many-a-woman's desire to become a warrior and battle for power over others, I'm sure.

There was no fixed point in history when this happened and there was no ceding of authority, in the same way that there is no fixed point or ceding of authority as women become the ones dominant and in power.

-edited typo & grammar

[Big Blue Marble]

149. Despite all the speculation on this thread,

nobody really knows. I do know one thing. Patriarchy has been an epic fail for the human race and for all the species that share this planet with us.

[KamaAina]

150. I've always thought it was because we take far less time getting ready for things

Can't really think of any other reason. In all other respects, they are at least our equals. At least.

[Withywindle]

156. A big part of it was who got to WRITE history.

Most societies with written language were patriarchal by the time the writing started....


and our own sense of history is shaped by archaeologists and historians who were, until the last half-century or so, overwhelmingly male, because most women didn't have access to advanced academic research until VERY relatively recently. (60 years or so? Not even significant in the long-term archaelogical record.)


So I would say the reason men have appeared to be the dominant sex in history is that for pretty much all of that history, men were the ones researching and writing it, with no one to call them on their invisible biases.

[Paradoxical]

160. Better question: Why do men feel the need to dominate everything?

:shrug:

[Union Scribe]

164. Allow me to sum up: 8----->

[RandomKoolzip]

163. I dunno, and I'd be foolish to speculate about that part of history.

I think our time would be better spent trying to figure out how all genders can live in relative peace and harmony with one another, with consideration and understanding and respect, and without fear of dominance or harm, in the present and future.

[lildreamer316]

165. READ THIS BOOK for your answer: The Chalice & The Blade

http://www.amazon.com/Chalice-Blade-Our-History-Future/dp/0062502891

[Book Lover]

167. Looks like someone's been reading Twisty!

And that makes me happy. We need more folks on Savage Death Island!

[MikeW]

168. more important question ... why does anyone care

[seabeyond]

172. there is a real issue with patriarchal society today. better ?. why doesnt EVERYONE

care.

[MikeW]

175. you really belive that?

My current boss is a woman .. 2 of my past 3 bosses were women.

My wife and I combined are head of the household as parents.

Maybe its still an issue in podunk USA, I dont know.

[seabeyond]

178. wow, that says it all, you have a female boss. you know if she is getting .75 to the males bosses

dollar?

cause that is the reality.

governors outlawing miscarriages, making them criminal? virgin checks in egypt. stoning girl cause a husband of another raped her. gang raping 11 yr olds....

[KittyWampus]

171. As human culture shifted from gathering to farming/industry, hierarchies and authoritarianism

became necessary and society became less egalitarian.

The further we moved from Nature and the more we relied on formal governments, the easier for those who sought power to grasp it and do what it took to maintain their positions.

And this is all a trade off. As we became more industrialized, overtime we became more stable and more people capable of having higher quality of life. Including becoming literate.

Hence, the regressive Far Right. They do not want literacy nor a widespread quality of life. They want power. To seize it and hold it.

It's a balancing act between our Reptilian Brain and our Higher Functions.

A big part of developing our Higher Brain functions is security. Having a stable source of food/shelter.

So while agriculture and industry provided this security needed to develop our Higher Brain functions, too often those in power simply remained in Reptilian mode and obsessed over maintaining their own position and power.