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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 09:28 PM
Original message
In 200 years the nuclear waste will still be sitting around and ...
... the people 200 years from now will be forced to keep paying someone to monitor it, keep people away from it and prevent enemies from using it as a weapon.

They are going to think, "Who the hell were these selfish assholes who dumped this shit on us!? They got a few years of electric power and for that they saddle us, generation after generation, with the unending labor and cost of monitoring their dangerous waste."

And that's the best case.

They might not continue to monitor it and people become sick and die from exposure to the ancient, degraded dry cask objects.
Or an enemy gets hold of some radioactive material and uses it against us.

Unless someone comes up with a way to render nuclear waste safe, there are no good outcomes.

It's possible that we of the late 20th and early 21st centuries may become some of the most hated in history.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. more like 200,000 years
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Or, we could do like Europe does and recycle it.
97% of that "waste" is actually usable fuel. The rest is much less toxic and more easily disposed of.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Plutonium
"Recycling" the fuel was always the plan, they just won't admit it.

That "recycled" fuel has lots of plutonium in it.
That is what is in (and leaking out of) reactor 3.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Actually no, there's not much plutonium.
The plutonium-mixture fuel in reactor three comes from plutonium-based nuclear weapons, and specifically trying to get rid of that plutonium. The amount left over in normal spent fuel rods is pretty low.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Actually 97 percent of that waste isn't fuel.
At least if you're looking at volume, not weight. Most of the radioactive trash are items that have been contaminated, like gloves, swipes, etc. etc. or items that themselves have become activated due to exposure, radioactive aluminum cans, tools, containers, containment vessels, etc. While those have a relatively shorter half life, a few centuries instead of hundreds of millenia, they are still quite dangerous to humans.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. 97% of "spent" fuel rods are still fuel.
Secondary radioactive contamination of things like construction materials is a relatively minor issue--that contamination is mostly due to neutron activation, and most neutron activated materials "burn out" their radioactivity fairly quickly. When people talk about long term waste storage, they're talking about fuel rods.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. But you didn't specifically mention spent fuel rods in your post,
Your post specifically stated, "97% of that "waste" is actually usable fuel." The OP that you were replying to didn't specifically mention spent fuel rods either, but was talking about "radioactive waste".

I was pointing out that your figures, when it comes down to radioactive waste, were simply wrong. If you were talking specifically about spent fuel rods, then say that, don't assume that people are mind readers.

And no, the radioactive waste, aside from spent fuel rods, is not a minor issue, relatively speaking or not. A "fairly quick" half life for activated aluminum is measured in hundreds of years. The material that winds up on gloves, swipes, etc. can range from plutonium to iridium, depleted uranium to samarium, with varying half lives. But the key to this material is that it isn't adhered to, bonded with other material, and thus is easily dislodged, by wind, water, friction, etc. It is then free to escape into the environment, and who knows from there.

When people are talking about long term storage, no, they're not talking about just spent fuel rods. Luckily, the people at the NRC are less cavalier than you are when it comes to this material, and treat it with at least some of the seriousness it deserves.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. No, that isn't what happens...
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 10:40 PM by kristopher
Perhaps you can demonstrate where the IPFM supporting documentation is wrong when they say:
Waste Volumes. A major argument made for reprocessing is that it dramatically reduces the volume of radioactive waste. A number of serious biases have been found, however, in official comparisons made by EDF, AREVA and the National Agency for Radioactive Waste Management (ANDRA, the organization responsible for radioactive waste disposal in France). These include:
• Exclusion of decommissioning and clean-up wastes stemming from the post-operational period of reprocessing plants;
• Exclusion of radioactive discharges to the environment from reprocessing. Their retention and conditioning would greatly increase solid waste volumes;
• A focus on high-level waste (HL W) and long-lived intermediate-level waste (LL-IL W), leaving aside the large volumes of low-level waste (LLW) and very low-level wastes (VLLW) generated by reprocessing;
• Comparison of the volumes of spent fuel assemblies packaged for direct disposal with those of unpackaged wastes from reprocessing, which overlooks for instance the fact that packaging reprocessing waste is expected to increase its volume by a factor of 3 to 7; and
• Failure to include the significantly larger final disposal volumes required for spent MOX fuel, because of its high heat generation, unless it is stored on the surface for some 150 years instead of the 50 years for low-enriched uranium spent fuel.
We find that, with past and current operating practices, there is no clear advantage for the reprocessing option either in terms of waste volumes or repository area. Depending upon assumptions, the underground volume required for spent MOX fuel and vitrified waste can be smaller or larger than that for direct disposal of spent LWR fuel.

Full report here:
http://www.fissilematerials.org/ipfm/site_down/rr04.pdf

And before you start in on the usual screed about breeders:
REPORT: UNSUCCESSFUL “FAST BREEDER” IS NO SOLUTION FOR LONG-TERM REACTOR WASTE DISPOSAL ISSUES]
After Over $50 Billion Spent by US, Japan, Russia, UK, India and France, No Commercial Model Found; High Cost, Unreliability, Major Safety Problems and Proliferation Risks All Seen as Major Barriers to Use.
PRINCETON, N.J. – February 17, 2010 – Hopes that the “fast breeder”– a plutonium‐fueled nuclear reactor designed to produce more fuel than it consumed -- might serve as a major part of
the long-term nuclear waste disposal solution are not merited by the dismal track record to date of such sodium-cooled reactors in France, India, Japan, the Soviet Union/Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States, according to a major new study from the International Panel on Fissile Materials (IPFM).
Titled “Fast Breeder Reactor Programs: History and Status,” the IPFM report concludes: “The problems (with fast breeder reactors) ... make it hard to dispute Admiral Hyman Rickover’s summation in 1956, based on his experience with a sodium-cooled reactor developed to power an early U.S. nuclear submarine, that such reactors are ‘expensive to build, complex to operate, susceptible to prolonged shutdown as a result of even minor malfunctions, and difficult and time-consuming to repair.’”
Plagued by high costs, often multi-year downtime for repairs (including a 15-year reactor restart delay in Japan), multiple safety problems (among them often catastrophic sodium fires triggered simply by contact with oxygen), and unresolved proliferation risks, “fast breeder” reactors already have been the focus of more than $50 billion in development spending, including more than $10 billion each by the U.S., Japan and Russia. As the IPFM report notes: “Yet none of these efforts has produced a reactor that is anywhere near economically competitive with light-water reactors ... After six decades and the expenditure of the equivalent of tens of billions of dollars, the promise of breeder reactors remains largely unfulfilled and efforts to commercialize them have been steadily cut back in most countries.”
The new IPFM report is a timely and important addition to the understanding about reactor...

http://www.fissilematerials.org/ipfm/site_down/ipfmnews100217.pdf

About IPFM: http://www.fissilematerials.org/ipfm/pages_us_en/about/about/about.php
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Congratulations on responding to something I never said.
You're the only one talking about breeder reactors. Or, for that matter, citing an anti-nuclear group as evidence.

Fact of the matter is, that this IS done in Europe. It used to be done here too, but we gave it up.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. You continue to reach new levels competence in reasoning...
You wrote, "You're the only one talking about breeder reactors. Or, for that matter, citing an anti-nuclear group as evidence."

So your reasoning goes like this:
If someone produces findings critical of the nuclear industry they are "anti-nuclear";
If they are anti-nuclear then their findings are not allowed to be considered as evidence;
If their claims are not allowed to be considered as evidence then there are no claims critical of the nuclear industry;
Therefore the nuclear industry is as wonderful as all of the claims that ARE allowed to be entered into evidence show it to be.


You honestly don't see a bit of a problem with that?
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. This is an April Fools joke, correct?
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. uh.. yeah... yeah! I'm jus' foolin' widja. Ain't no probl'm wit' nookyulers stuff. No probs.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. selfish assholes
yes that's how the next few generations of humans will see us. We haven't learned anything about living on the earth--only how to exploit it and abuse it for short-term gain.

We who oppose nuclear power are the hostages of arrogant high tech zealots and narcissist, greedy politicians. The regular people of the world don't understand the issues and are being deliberately kept in the dark.

Future generations will blame us all.
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. Nukes are a bad idea on so many levels. +! to ya.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kablooie, I think stubborn shortsighted patriarchy is partly to blame.
If women were really empowered we would NOT let the planet be poisoned.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. You know what - I agree with that completely
Get out there and take charge.

Seriously - no snark. I think the assault on women's reproductive rights is an attempt to enforce control over a sustainable, compassionate world view that scares the hell out of the right-wing.
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Off topic but if you admire Frida Kahlo, read The Lacuna by Barbara Kingsolver
I saw your avatar.
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Much of the fuel in spent fuel rods...
once cleaned of the toxic materials(made by the fission process)can be reloaded in fresh rods and will supply power for roughly 3 years. Reprocess again and the rods can be reinstalled. Actual waste is negligible from the rods.

The MOX effort is to eliminate, through the fission process, the deadly plutonium from obsolete warheads. Seems to me that is a good program.

For those capable of thought and not snark, you might want to attempt to read some of Bill Wattenberg's stuff...the other side of the coin so to speak. Google Bill Wattenberg. He is at the least, one of our major physicists and at least knows more than you or I.
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I will take a look, but even so, there are dangerous wast products that remain.
If a method could be used to render the waste innocuous, that would b great but they are not doing that right now.
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