Starting to think they have no idea what they are doing?

[kpete]

Starting to think they have no idea what they are doing.

"the head of Tepco Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) operator of the plant, said Wednesday that he has no road map to fix the problems at the facility"

http://www.automatedtrader.net/real-time-news/73173/japan-quake-seawater-radiation-still-rising-at-fukushima

[MineralMan]

1. It's a unique event, and will require unique solutions.

I'm not surprised there is no road map. An identical situation has not occurred. Chernobyl was a completely different type of reactor, and the other nuclear plant incidents didn't have the same issues. Planning began when the incident started. We still don't know every element of the problem.

[BeFree]

2. We still don't know

Wait, these are nuclear scientist who get paid the big bucks for, well, for what?
I tell you for what: For knowing what the fuck to do when one of their babies takes a shit.

And they don't know what to do..... How gawd damned stupid can we get?

[MineralMan]

3. They know the general outlines of what to do, but the specifics are

unique to this incident. The planning for how to deal with this particular incident could not take place until it occurred. Now, the plant should never have been built. I think no plants should be built. But, no, they didn't know how to deal with this particular incident in advance.

[BeFree]

4. How stupid can we get?

I'll tell you what's stupid: That they all told themselves (and us) this could never happen.

They f'n lied all the way to the bank, and now this stuff is like a sword held over our heads.

Where have I heard this before?
"No one could have imagined."

Common sense tells you that when undertaking huge projects that you figure out ahead of time what to do if it all goes to shit. Surely our nuclear scientist aren't lacking common sense. So how come they are now such idiots?

[MineralMan]

5. You'd think so, wouldn't you? But, advance planning for

nuclear reactor incidents is general in nature, not specific. I remember reviewing the emergency plan for the Diablo Canyon plant as part of the an intervening group. It was long on general stuff, but very lean on specifics. I think that's SOP, pretty much. It's impossible to predict exactly what will be needed to deal with the actual stuff that might happen, so it's all pretty general.

Take the concrete-pumping equipment, as an example. They didn't have that on site. I would have been very surprised to hear that they did. It had to be transported there, and a much larger pumping vehicle is going to flown there from here, on a Russian cargo plane, since we have nothing that large available.

Should they have had such a piece of equipment on site? I don't know the answer to that question.

Pretty much all of the contingency stuff at Fukushima was wiped out in the earthquake and tsunami. That's bad planning, but there's a limit to redundancy somewhere in the planning. So, the pumps failed, and emergency power wasn't sufficient.

I'm not making apologies for this stuff. I don't believe any nuclear power generation should ever have been built, and precisely for the reason that there is no way to be fully prepared for any contingency. There just isn't. So, now, they're playing catch-up after the fact. Par for the course.

[BeFree]

7. So

Once again we see that the "establishment" is just a bunch of incompetent fools who believe everything they tell each other?

Because, by gawd, the peons down here have been telling them this shit was gonna happen.
Why is it that the leaders get a pass and the peon gets fried on sight?

"Par for the course" eh?
Too bad, so sad? Take your shit and enjoy it, peon?
Don't worry, peon, we got this...?

Par for the course, indeed. Well, isn't that special?

[pscot]

14. Don't take it personally

Natural disasters in general are outside the grasp of our imagination or capacity to prepare. The fucking earth subsided 3 feet. Plan for that!

[BeFree]

15. Right. Nothing personal. Just my earth on the line.

More establishment lingo:

"You want us to plan around nature?"
" Don't you know we smart people have dominion over nature?"

More of the "Trust us, because we have your best interest at heart"? ...puke...
Will we ever learn?

[txwhitedove]

22. BeFree is exactly right. No room for error with nuclear energy. WHY WHY WHY would

anyone think it was a good idea to build even one nuclear plant along the "Ring of Fire", the fucking huge fault that runs in a ring around the Pacific and through U.S., that REGULARLY has recorded earthquakes???

[Old and In the Way]

13. A unique event?

Earthquakes and tsunami's just started this year? Sorry, can not buy this defense. Of all the probable causes of a disaster, earthquakes and tsunami's had to have been easily the #1 concern. I understand that they'd site along the coast to utilize the ocean for water cooling, but, given the probability that a disaster would be a result of a earthquake/tsunami, I can't begin to understand why their back-up systems were in a position to be compromised.

[girl gone mad]

26. There have actually been many simulations..

and even at least one real experiment done on this specific "unique event".

Planning should have been done years ago.

[fasttense]

6. They really do look like the Three Stooges.

It's like we'll try this for awhile, then we are going to try this, or we can do this or we can do that. Well, that didn't work and caused more problems, so we'll try this. It was the same way with the BP Gulf Oil disaster. It was the same way when Wall Street collapsed the economy. They look like a bunch of idiots.

Don't mistake the ability to make huge amounts of money with intelligence. The CEOs, executives and board members may know how to make a profit but frequently have absolutely no idea how to run the businesses they are in. They know how to make a profit off a corporation but they have no idea what to do when their corporations create disasters for the rest of us.

This is why we should have a strangle hold of regulations monitoring every move a corporation makes. They are walking disasters waiting to happen.

AND you know what is even more scary? This corporate aristocracy is in control of our government and the most powerful military in the world.

[BeFree]

9. Yep

"This corporate aristocracy is in control of our government and the most powerful military in the world."

That is scary. And, they control the voting machines, too. They own the whole shebang.
Well, it can't last, is my only solace. Radiation does not discriminate.

[barbtries]

8. this is what amazes and outrages

they don't know what to do!! how is it even fucking possible that they had not planned for this? how can anybody be supportive of continuing to build and use nuclear energy when it has not been all the way thought out? i don't even think i can express how much this aspect of the industry just blows me away. how could they do that. why did they do that. and what does it mean, for the ecology of the planet and for the people in japan right now.

STILL trying to get a fix on what is really happening there.

[BobbyBoring]

10. One would think

That if your smart enough to build a reactor, you're smart enough to have a plan A, B, C, and D for every possible fuck up that could occur.

[marions ghost]

11. yes I am starting to think that

are all we are left with is Hail Marys???

[Snoutport]

12. DId you see my post the CEO of TEPCO was missing for weeks after the quake?

Nobody knew where he was until he wandered into the hospital!

[iemitsu]

16. the best reason to close these and all the other nuclear

reactors on earth. it is not ok to build these reactors, and tell the public that the "risk" is acceptable, when we don't have any way of dealing with accidents.
how did humans become so dumb? or is it greed?

[MineralMan]

17. I agree.

[iemitsu]

18. i am not sure i ever believed that the nuclear industry

knew what they were up to.
i once took a group of students to the hanford nuclear reservation. the workers there were obviously brainwashed into believing the industry spiel. we sat and ate lunch with geiger-counters wildly clicking away. the plant workers were unconcerned.

[Overseas]

19. Sort of like the BP Transocean Disaster -- Junk Shot, Top Hat, etc.

Trying out all the options used in prior explosions, pretending this incident just could not have been anticipated, although it was.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x801410

Pretending the name "blowout preventer" would make it so, although we now know they don't.

Big Oil pretending they were spending the billions of dollars in R&D subsidies we'd given them on improving safety and clean up technologies, yet when the BP Transocean explosion in the Gulf occurred, we were shocked to observe clean up technologies from the 80's. And the use of poisonous Corexit to just improve "the optics" of the situation and make things look less severe.

I really hope this honest disclosure that nuclear industry giant, TEPCO, has no road map for this meltdown will shake up our country to move away from nuclear in a much more concerted manner.

But I had hoped the BP disaster would do that to. Provide the spur to dramatically reduce our use of oil and wasting of it in poor explosion prevention, because we all know we will need to use petroleum for decades to come. If nothing else, I had hoped all our legislators would respond to the great waste of millions of gallons of the precious resource.

[dixiegrrrrl]

30. Good reminder. I had "almost" forgotten the clown car approach to solving the BP mess

which is STILL hurting people down here, STILL being hidden by the press, STILL poisoning the seafood.

[Overseas]

35. Such powerful companies, ignoring safety warnings to save more cash.

And still the cruel GOP pushes the meme that there are too many restrictive regulations.

They've amped up their Slash & Burn Economics.

And have co-opted so many of our legislators that we don't have the critical mass of staunch Democrats to stand up and say No More. Not a penny more of budget cuts of basic human needs without the 1% tax increase at the top, or the .025¢ transaction tax on Wall Street with their comfy bonuses already received.

[RC]

20. Isn't it amazing that hundreds of people from around the world with doctorates in Nuclear psychics,

know less about nuclear power generation than some DU posters with only high school diplomas?
While many DU'ers are real experts on many complicated subjects, when it comes to anything nuclear, brain freeze and wild eyed panic, while looking for the exit sets in.
Why? Ignorance is the usual reason why people panic. No power source is 100% safe. The more concentrated it is, the more powerful it becomes, the more dangerous it becomes. Be it batteries, gasoline, or nuclear power.

There are certain characteristics, clues common to all propaganda, no matter the subject. They are prevalent on the Anti-nuclear power threads. Missing info, 2+2=5 math, Non Sequitur conclusions...

Why is Japan using nuclear in the first place? Why don't they just import more oil and coal?
Why did they not go with wind and solar? After all they manufacture that technology.
The Japanese economy is a microcosm of the future of the rest of us. They had no choice in their use of nuclear power. And neither will we somewhere down the road.

[BeFree]

21. No choice?

That's dumb. There are always choices.

At least they could have chosen to tell the truth and let everyone know that they really didn't quite know what they would do when one of their babies took a shit.

Instead they said "Our shit, if we ever shit - which we won't, won't even stink."
Guess what? It stinks. 5,000 miles away and it stinks.

Nuclear has seen it's future destroyed, and it's because nukers chose to lie.
And now the truth is stinking up the whole planet.

[RC]

23. Ok, what choices did they have for their power needs?

Come up with some workable solutions here? Some facts please.
Answer my questions.
How are the Japanese suppose to meet their power needs? They are a high population, small island country. Don't you think they have not explored wind, solar and tide power sources?
Don't just regurgitate more anti-nuke drivel.

[BeFree]

24. Not anti-nuke

Just knowing that the nukers have lied about their industry.

Now.... if they didn't lie, and they told the truth, that when - not if - but when one of their babies takes a dump, they would end up destroying the land for miles and miles for a long ass time, don't you think the people would have further explored the other choices?

I guess, first off, you have to admit the nukers lied. Can you admit the nukers lied? Yes, or no?

[txwhitedove]

27. It only takes one 'silly' little episode like this to make all the anti-nuke drivel absolutely,

excuse me, DEAD-ON correct.

[spin]

31. Are you willing to admit that there were design flaws ...

in the reactors and the complex they sit on?

Was it wise to continue to run 40 year old GE Mark 1 reactors when many experts have reservations about their safety? Is it wise to have five such reactors on the same complex? Did anyone consider the effects of a tsunami on the complex in an area where such events are not uncommon?

Newer Nuclear Reactors Might Not Have Failed in Japan

Passive cooling systems and other advanced designs could be more resilient to natural disasters.
Tuesday, March 15, 2011

The latest nuclear reactor designs could help avoid the overheating and explosions that have occurred at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant in Japan following the powerful earthquake and tsunami that struck on Friday. Newer reactor designs propose the use of passive cooling systems that would not fail after a power outage, as happened in Japan, as well as other novel approaches to managing reactor heat.
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/35100/page1/

I can see value in using nuclear energy to produce power but it may be necessary to update the technology to improve safety. Of course, the power companies will always favor running their outdated reactors forever. There are definite advantages to nuclear power but at the same time there are ENORMOUS drawbacks if a major accident happens.

The nuclear industry needs TIGHT regulation. Perhaps we should deactivate nuclear plants after 30 years and replace the older reactors with new, more modern reactors.

[RC]

37. Apparently no one here knows the answer to my questions.

[marions ghost]

25. "doctorates in Nuclear psychics"???

:rofl: I guess that would be us! We psychics who SAW this coming. We who KNOW there are other choices.

We who KNOW that intelligence, (ie. doctorates in physics)--and wisdom do not always go together!?!

"Japan had no choice." :spray: poppycock

[MineralMan]

28. LOL!

Slip of the finger that has comic consequences...

[marions ghost]

32. In a situation

with so little to laugh at...

Right now, I'd rather be a Nuclear Psychic than a Nuclear Physicist!

[girl gone mad]

29. This from someone who posted a link to a global warming denier..

who said nothing has gone wrong at these reactors?

I can assure you I have more than enough physics in my background to understand the pros and cons of nuclear energy. The bulk of misinformation and disinformation posted over the last few days has been coming from the pro-nuclear side. Frankly, I'm tired of being called "uneducated" and "wrong" by people who don't understand concepts that are basic to nuclear physics.

[RC]

36. Gotta link for proof?

BTY, just for the record, global warming, aka, Climate change is a fact and is happening.

[Hydra]

33. *laughs*

Sucks when the facts come knocking at your door in the form of a possible 2nd Chernobyl.

Not unlike the Gulf oil disaster. Not unlike the financial crisis.

We have other options. We always did. They aren't "Profitable enough."

We need a headstone- Humanity: Killed by Profit Motive

[titaniumsalute]

34. I thought you meant Republicans