The Teabaggers will win. I see no choice for the Democrats/Obama but to cave in to their demands...

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

Please hear me out before you bash me...

Democrats will eventually be forced to cave. Either way, the Teabaggers win.

The choices are:

1. Continue the impasse, thus keeping government shutdown and hurting the economy.
2. Force the Republicans/Teabaggers to compromise on the $33 billion.
3. Dems/Obama give the Teabaggers what they want to avoid further damage to the economy.

#1 and #2 are out of the question. The Teabaggers will NEVER compromise, and keeping the government shut down is out of the question.

This leaves us with Option #3.

This is what happens when people don't vote; or, are so angry with the president/Dems that they vote Republicans back into office.

[liberal N proud]

1. Most polls show that the GOPers get blamed if the government shuts down

Bohner knows this.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

33. The Republicans act as if they don't care, and they have a reasonable allabi...

The Democrats failed to pass a budget last year before the election. There is no excuse for that. The Republicans can successfully shift the blame to Democrats unless the Dems come up with some explanation for why they didn't pass a budget last year.

[JoePhilly]

2. I don't think so ...

The Tea Party was able to gain some power because the average moderate Republican wasn't paying attention. They let the crazy base put in its candidates, the really crazy ones. And they are going to find out that their party has gone nuts.

Lots of the Tea Party folks have no idea what their actions will cause, they care only about ideology. Moderates aren't interested in ideology.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

34. All the more reason why the Teabaggers control the agenda. The Republicans need

the Teabaggers' vote. There aren't enough reasonable Republicans to force the Teabaggers into submission. And Boehner has demonstrated no leadership. He really WANTS a shutdown, despite his rhetoric on the T.V.

They WANT a shutdown to happen.

[JoePhilly]

65. I agree that they do want one, but not that the Dems need to cave on it.

I think the Tea Party is a last gasp of the former GOP. The GOP is in the process of imploding. Shrinking down onto its craziest base.

They'll kick out Boehner, Lindsey Graham, and that still won't be enough. Frankentein's monster almost always kills it creator at some point (while doing lots of other damage along the way).

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

66. But eventually we need a budget. Either there's a budget or government remains shutdown.

How are we able to get a budget passed through the House without crazy-ass Teabaggers wanting to cut everything...and I mean, EVERYTHING!?!??!

Still looking for viable solutions.

You're the voice of reason. As Rachel often says, 'talk me down'!!! :)

[lamp_shade]

3. Your last sentence says it all for me. The 2010 "shellacking " can be blamed on only one thing...

extremely low "D" turnout and extremely high "TP" turnout.

[MannyGoldstein]

9. The battered spouse is at fault?

Really? We should just expect candidates to go hard right and ignore campaign pledges.?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

35. You're not listening. The bottom line is that we have more Teabaggers in Congress

What is your solution to this problem?

[cali]

4. step back from the crystal ball. n/t

[FBaggins]

5. Option #4 - remember Wisconsin!

Let 'em shut it down and wait for public opinion to turn so strongly against them that they knuckle under.

[MadHound]

6. Excuse me, but it isn't the Teabaggers who are the actual key here,

But rather Boehner and his tan-clad vanity. There are already enough votes in the House to pass the bill that has the $33 billion dollar compromise. But Boehner wants to get 218 Republican votes in order to pass the bill, ie, he is moving the goal posts.

So this shutdown is coming about because of the stubborn insistence of one man, one man who apparently can't, or won't, lead. All that has to happen is to force Boehner to do the responsible thing.

The Congressional Teabaggers can, and should be cut out of the loop, and instead, the relatively adult thinking population in the House needs to lead.

So this isn't about the 'baggers, but rather about Boehner.

There is no need to cave, in fact if the Dems cave, again, it will do irreparable harm to this country, and further discourage Democratic turnout for the '12 elections. What needs to happen is to put the onus on Boehner to act like an adult, to act like a leader and actually lead. If the government shuts down it is because of his intransigence, not the insanity of the Teabaggers.

[davidthegnome]

19. I'm not sure I agree

First, let me say that I really enjoy a lot of your posts - big fan.

On this one though... my honest belief is that Boehner is scared of the tea party. I think a lot of republicans in congress (even those not really affiliated with the tea party) are. We're talking practically frothing at the mouth lunatics with guns who are full of rage and hatred as much as ignorance and will not take no for an answer. I don't blame Boehner one bit for being afraid - I do blame him and many like him for allowing the Teabaggers to influence their vote so heavily. Or at least, that's how I see this.

I honestly think that Boehner is afraid for his life if he gives in on even the already enormous cuts.

[MadHound]

41. The only "life" he is afraid for is his political one

You are giving entirely too much credit to the teabaggers, and using them entirely too much as an excuse to cave.

The only thing that Boehner is afraid for is possibly his own political career. He certainly isn't afraid for his very life.

He is essentially playing chicken here, and hasn't figured out whether or not he'll swerve at the last minute. Hopefully he will wake up, be an adult and do the right thing. If not, then the blame is entirely on him and the 'Pugs, including the 'baggers in the House.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

42. Actually, it IS about Boehner because he is in lockstep with the Teabaggers.

He admitted as much just yesterday. To me, it speaks volumes about where the Republican Party is at right now.

[MadHound]

48. Actually I don't think that he is in lockstep,

I think that he is simply giving them far too much power and position. He thinks that if he actually holds the vote, they will primary him for being too "liberal".

The thing is, sooner or later somebody has to act like a grown up and it is better to do so now, rather than later. If Boehner allows this shut down to go down, getting primaried by 'baggers is going to be the least of his worries.

[MannyGoldstein]

7. The battered spouse is at fault?

In 1995, government shut down. It opened in a few days. We won.

[Siouxmealso]

31. actually, both sides won

Clinton won re-election in 1996 and the republicans retained control of congress.

[Le Taz Hot]

39. Actually, they didn't.

The Democrats gained 9 seats in the 1996 election.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections,_1996

The only way they won the WH in 2000 was through theft.

[davidthegnome]

8. Not going to bash you at all, but..

If the democrats give in on this - what else will they give in on? How much is too much?

If the Teabaggers have their way, we'll lose medicaid, medicare, social security. Welfare, food stamps, the minimum wage, union rights, civil rights - anything that goes to benefit those in need or the working class or even the average person will become things of the past. I think the Teabaggers are very frightening, I think we need to stand up to them now and hold our ground, whatever the cost. Otherwise... remember Germany, remember what gave rise to nazi power.

I don't know what the solution is - but giving in cannot be the solution. Otherwise we no longer have even a mockery of democracy. If we surrender our rights to these people we will suffer for it for generations to come.

We need to hold the democrats feet to the fire. The Teabaggers are not a majority - but neither were the Nazis. We must tread carefully here..

[Le Taz Hot]

40. Although I rarely agree with him these days,

Obama knows a government shut-down will land squarely in the G.O.P. lap. He also knows he has spent any political clout he once had -- his base is fed up with his bipartisanship (read: caving). This is the one that he CAN'T compromise.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

45. I'm happy to hear alternative solutions. As a federal employee, we're holding our collective breaths

[vi5]

10. Ah, I see the pre-emptive spins and excuses are starting...

I was wondering how long it would be.

The fact is that the shut down hurts the Republicans financially just as much as it does the dems. And all polls and signs (as well as history) indicate that they will bear the brunt of the blame for it.

So there is absolutely no reasoning or excuse for the caving this time around. With the caving on Healthcare we still ended up getting some benefit. Same with the second stimuls/tax extension. But this time around we stand nothing to gain by caving and no matter how much spin is given that won't change.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

46. Happy to hear your solutions to this issue, then. Are there enough Democratic

votes in the House? Are there enough Republicans who will join Democrats?

Civics 101: Appropropriations Bills being in the House, not the White House and not the Senate.

What are your solutions? No excuses! Just solutions?

[vi5]

56. The same solution Clinton found...

Let them shut the government down. It's just as much their fault as it would be Dems, and poll after poll shows that Repubs would get more of the blame.

My solution is for the Dems to stand up for a change and take a firm position. They have already compromised to an absurd degree and the Republicans want more. The solution is not to give them more. The solution is to call their bluff.

You disagree. Fine. But please don't present it as the only solution because it's not. Yes, it's the cowardly option. But it's not the only option.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

64. Let the government shut down is not a viable solution in the long run.

Eventually Congress must pass a budget.

Not only that, there's an additional battle coming up: the increasing of the debt ceiling.

This budget showdown has to be dealt with now so that we can get on to the debt ceiling issue.

So, the question remains: what's the most viable solution to this budget matter?

[A wise Man]

11. Tea party..Teaparty...Tea party....

DAMMIT...THEY ARE ALL REPUBLICANS....YESTERDAY...TODAY...AND TOMORROW.........COMPLETE NUTTTTTTTTTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[erinlough]

71. You are indeed a wise man

the tea party is not big enough to have this influence so I can only assume this is a Republican platform. I met with my local representative at the state level and he, a Republican and term limited, said he couldn't go against the Tea Baggers. My response was that they only represent 26% of the voting public and he is out anyway so why was he so beholding to them. He had no answer. They are the loud and nutty mouth of the real Republican party.

[TBF]

12. Unrec. This is what happens when people think voting matters. nt

[davidthegnome]

14. Was that sarcasm?

I'm cynical and distrustful of our voting system overall - but I still think voting matters. Was that sarcasm or do you honestly believe that it doesn't? The recent events in Wisconsin, for one thing, indicate that voting does indeed matter.

[TBF]

36. No.

I do think we can see some results on cultural issues - such as the DADT. But I don't see any substantive change on economic issues no matter who is in office. We are always begging for crumbs for our poor, elderly, children, and disabled - and I don't see that getting any better (even in Wisconsin).

Voting is just a dog and pony show to keep people believing they have democracy and "freedom", while the folks with the serious money sit back and enjoy the very real freedoms they have. I don't think capitalism is a good system for at least 95% of the people - it's inherently unequal and immoral. By design the system rewards greed. It's got to go.

[demmiblue]

13. Preemptive excuse-making, IMHO. n/t

[RedCloud]

15. So we should let certified morons dictate policy?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

49. No. You have to push reasonable Republicans in the House to do the right thing.

Can you do that? If not, in the meantime, work harder to get more progressives in the Congress.

The Democrats failed to pass a budget last year. They need to take some responsibility for that.

Not enough voters came out to vote in 2010. They need to take some responsibility for that.

The Republicans/Baggers are IDIOTS! They are evil bastards who are deliberately destroying the middle class. What are we going to do about it?

[TheKentuckian]

16. Your strategy is suicide. You can't just keep bending over for hijackers and terrorist.

No way.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

47. Your solutions, please? What are they?

[TheKentuckian]

78. Shut down all negotiations and tell them to sit and spin.

If you're gonna die, die with your boots on. Current SOP means every increasing demands as we slowly strip mine ourselves as we flail about and "negotiate" ourselves into a far worse place than when the Republicans owned the entire government.

Then you blast the fuckers for being everything but children of God and take it to them just like they do to us.

Are you under some impression that there is something that will make them become reasonable? Failed to observe that even if you give them what they demand that the goalposts move and we are in a spot of negotiating somewhere between more than they started out at and infinity?

I know...why don't we just lie down and die and let them do as they desire? Why even bother opposing them with candidates if the end game is selling kidneys to pay blood money till they are gone and then commence to selling lungs, pieces of liver, an eye or whatever they scream?

Make them kill the hostages and then fight them to the death.

[Dappleganger]

17. Unrecc.

[Poboy]

18. Of course they will win. The more committed party will ALWAYS win.

We have cowardly, wishy-washy, capitulators who will sacrifice themselves for business interests, yes. For us? You're out of your mind.

[Better Believe It]

20. Sounds like you're letting the "great bi-partisan compromisers" off the hook and blaming the people!

Right.

It's always our fault and the Republican party enablers in the Democratic party are never responsible for capitulating to them.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

50. Nope. I'm facing reality. Tell me how we get Republicans to join Democrats in the House

to pass a bill?

I'm not blaming Democrats. The Republicans/Teabaggers are the evil ones here. I don't think we get around what they are trying to do.

Can you provide solutions?

[bullwinkle428]

21. Another OP cleverly crafted to beat up on the loyal Democratic

base voters.

[vi5]

22. We can't lose sight of the most important issue...

..that being that we need to make sure that nobody anywhere under any circumstances blames the president for anything at any time or holds him accountable for anything.

Sure, people's lives will be impacted, and we'll have a soon to be irreversible shift to the hard right in this country and it's conventional wisdom. But that's a small price to pay to make sure that nobody speaks anything other than praise for President Obama. Don't you think?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

51. Nope. I'm being totally honest about this. There are MORE Republicans/Teabaggers in the House.

The House is responsible for passing Appropriations Bills.

Tell me how we get them to join Democrats in accomplishing this goal.

If you think I am wrong, then tell me what the viable solutions are. Don't just bash and trash.

[in_cog_ni_to]

23. I don't think so. As soon as the country feels the pain, the Teabaggers will feel their wrath.

And the short term pain of a shutdown is nothing compared to the pain the entire country will feel for the rest of their lives if those psychotic, IGNORANT Teabaggers get their way and cut every social program we've ever had and Medicare????. Either way, TEABAGGERS LOSE. And they LOSE BIG.

Have you seen the videos of "CUT IT OR SHUT IT!" "CUT IT OR SHUT IT!" "CUT IT OR SHUT IT!" "CUT IT OR SHUT IT!" >>>> OR

"SHUT IT DOWN!" "SHUT IT DOWN!" "SHUT IT DOWN!" "SHUT IT DOWN!" "SHUT IT DOWN!" "SHUT IT DOWN!"

Those were NOT Democrats making total and complete asses of themselves...on camera, no less, they were TEABAGGERS!

And we also learned that when BONER had his meeting with his Teabagger THUGS they actually CHEERED, standing O, when he told them there was no deal with Obama and Reid.

There's NO WAY Democrats get blamed for this. They have given and given and given and given and given....the Teabaggers haven't. Remember Wisconsin? The Teabaggers are finding out what happens when you mess with the American workforce. The Teabaggers will pay for the shutdown too. Hopefully, it will be an end to them...they'll just fade away and be a blip in the history books.

[RegieRocker]

32. If the situation was reversed the Dems would surely be condemned

for causing the shut down. Youre correct.

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. Of course and the RW MSM would put those videos on a constant loop

for playing as much as they possibly could. Will they do the same for the Teabagger THUGS? We shall see how much damage the RW MSM wants to do to Dems....how THEY play this issue.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

52. I hope you're right. With our Corporate Media praising Righteous Ryan, I'm not convinced.

I hope Americans will open their eyes and realize the mistake they made putting these nutballs in the halls of Congress.

[in_cog_ni_to]

74. Oh, they will. When it hurts THEM where it counts.

I've always said you NEVER vote Repuke because that vote will ALWAYS come back to bite you in the ass. Look at Congress. Look at Wisconsin. Look at Michigan and Ohio. The people who voted Teabagger/GOP, will rue the day they did and HOPEFULLY not be stupid enough to repeat it. Fool me once???

Let 'em shut down the Gov.. They won't be around to do it ever again when they're voted out of office. That vote Tuesday, in Wisconsin, is just an example of what they have coming their way.

[Javaman]

24. there is a silver lining to the government such down...

If it does the majority of the ball lickers won't have medicare or their SS benefits mailed to them.

They will quite suddenly realize that they have been completely duped.

But frankly, I would prefer the government continue to run.

[jtown1123]

44. not true. They will still get SS checks and their doctors will be reimbursed.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

54. They'll still receive their SS/Medicare checks. And they'll still foolishly support

Republicans/Teabaggers as they attempt to privatize BOTH programs. It happened in Florida. There was absolutely NO excuse for Rick Scott winning, not even with the worst Democratic candidate.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. They are the Republicans. There is no Tea Party.

The Senate is Democratic and the President was elected as one. He holds the veto pen. There is no reason for him to cave to them unless he wants to.
I do not take kindly to those who wish to focus on some right wing states, and keep up this crap about those critical of Obama not voting. The entire west coast remained Democratic, elected Democratic Senators, Governors, House Members, and we criticize the policies we do not care for with full freedom of mind. Yet we won!
The 'moderates' the 'youth vote' and certain minority populations stayed home in '10 and yet I am told here that all of them adore Obama, and if we don't all adore him too, they will get angry and never vote again.
I assume you are from the State of Ooolong. Orange Peko? You are speaking so favorably of the Baggers and so critically of Democratic voters that one does wonder.
The are Republicans, there is no Tea Party.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tatiana]

27. I wish Democrats would eliminate the concept of "caving" from their minds.

Democrats should stand firm. If the government gets shut down, so be it. Everyone knows it will be because of the Republicans.

[samrock]

28. I think you are WRONG...

First off the government has less affect on the economy than you believe.. It would take a very long shut down to affect it much.. long before that would happen the pressure the public would place on the republican party to crack would be HUGE.. this would be a total win for the democrats.. the right wing of the republicans party are like lemmings.. driven to the sea.. they can't help themselves.. it is soo emotionally satisfying to yell shut it down.. then see it all stop.. BUT just as in 1995.. after a few weeks they will have to cave .. long as Obama and the democrats do not give in.. Obama has the bully pulpit.. Who will the republicans have as there spokesman.. Tan man?? some of the other right wingers .. PLEASE!! This is an easy win if Obama does not cave ( and on that point I have my doubts).. This is Obama;s final exam!!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

55. I hope you're right and I'm 100% wrong.

[RickFromMN]

29. Every once in a while I look at the Mark Fiore cartoons, here is a link to one on uncompromise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4gYyaSSj4E

[Johonny]

30. option 3 does not avoid further damage to the economy

The Republican budget plan will hurt the economy a lot.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

57. If the Corporate Media would cease heaping praise on Paul Ryan and look

at what's behind the Red Curtain, I believe the truth will be revealed. I just hope Americans don't fall for the scam that Ryan is putting forth.

[Rocknrule]

37. Teabaggers = stormtroopers for the wealthy

[butterfly77]

43. They need to....

SHUT IT DOWN!!!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

58. Why? Why hurt millions of federal employees and their families?

To prove a political point?

[City Lights]

53. Call their bluff.

The Democrats gave them what they originally asked for and then they moved the goal posts. Fuck them. They will NEVER be satisfied, no matter how much we give in. You cannot negotiate with terrorists. Shine the light on these vultures and expose their fuckery.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

59. If Democrats play their cards right and frame the message, we may be able to win this.

But the Republicans are showboating before the cameras right now, and I don't see the president out there explaining what the Republicans/Teabaggers are trying to do.

The Democrats need to be more out there telling the American people that the Republicans/Teabaggers are attempting to destroy this country for political advantage.

[Marr]

60. I disagree. Very few of those politicians are Teabaggers.

They're con-men sitting on a gravy train. The Teabaggers are just the sheep of the moment. They'll drop the Teabaggers if it's in their own best interest.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

68. The problem is that right now the Republican Establishment and the Teabaggers share a common goal...

Destroy Obama and the Democratic Party. If they see it in their best interest to shut down government, they'll remain in lockstep until they get what they want!!!

[svsuman23]

61. playing devils advocate: who didn't pass the last budget to give the repukes leverage on this

Subject.

What years budget are we on now?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

70. I made this point upthread. The Democrats failed to pass a budget last year

knowing fully well that the Republicans had a good change to retake the House. Why didn't they pass a budget?

Now here we are. Those who have come to this thread to flame me haven't provided any viable solutions. It's what the Republicans/Teabaggers do when they don't have an answer: issue ad hominem attacks.

Still waiting to hear solutions that will prove me wrong. And I hope that I am 100% wrong on this!!

[rdking647]

62. time to call their bluff

since the teabaggers want to hurt the economy let them.. and then when the government has to spend billions more to fix what the teabaggers brought on we will know exactly who to blame

[rdking647]

63. tell the go that they will cut 50B

but it all has to come from defense

[ljm2002]

67. Oh yeah, that'll work...

...show them who's boss by caving in to their extreme demands. That'll show 'em all right!!

The only way you win against people like this is by standing your ground and going nose to nose.

The people enjoy a good fight. They don't so much like a weakling. But what they really, really hate is someone who throws the fight.

Please, Dems, don't throw the fight. MAKE IT A BATTLE. SEE who the public backs. THEN decide WHO needs to compromise.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

72. I hope you're right. I hope Democrats will fight. And I hope there are reasonable

Republicans left in the House who will join Democrats in passing a budget.

[Orsino]

69. They already have.

Our fightin' Dems started from a corporate-framed position of appeasement, guaranteeing big victories for the Republicans, whose goal is to drive the nation as far to the right as they can.

Even the best possible outcomes would still be Republican wins.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. Option #4 go vacation in Hawaii until the House brings a tolerable bill. n/t

[roman7]

75. servant never!

when people get hungry they get angry can you say civil war?

[Wait Wut]

76. K&R for this...

"This is what happens when people don't vote; or, are so angry with the president/Dems that they vote Republicans back into office."

I'd like to paint this on a board and hit people in the head with it. Not hard, mind you. Just enough to get their attention. Won't even leave a mark.

:spank:

[Poboy]

77. I just want to kick this as it is so weak, so pathetic, so disgusting,

I suggest reading it on an empty stomach.

[demmiblue]

79. nonsense kick. n/t