Libyan Revolution Day 50

[joshcryer]

Links to sites with updates: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-8">AJE Live Blog April 8 (today) http://blogs.aljazeera.net/twitter-dashboard">AJE Twitter Dashboard http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/libya">The Guardian http://uk.reuters.com/places/libya">Reuters http://feb17.info/">feb17.info http://www.livestream.com/libya17feb?utm_source=lsplayer&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=footerlinks">Libya Alhurra (live video webcast from Benghazi) http://www.libyafeb17.com/">libyafeb17.com

Twitter links: http://twitter.com/#!/aymanm">Ayman Mohyeldin, with AJE http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn">Ben Wedeman, with CNN http://twitter.com/#!/tripolitanian">tripolitanian, a Libyan from Tripoli http://twitter.com/#!/BaghdadBrian">Brian Conley, reporter in Libya http://twitter.com/#!/freelibyanyouth">FreeLibyanYouth, Libyan advocate http://twitter.com/#!/LibyaFeb17_com">LibyaFeb17.com twitter account http://twitter.com/#!/ChangeInLibya">ChangeInLibya, Libyan advocate

Useful links: http://audioboo.fm/feb17voices">feb17voices http://www.google.com/search?q=time+in+libya">Current time in Libya http://www.islamicfinder.org/cityPrayerNew.php?country=libya">Prayer times in Libya

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x830413">Day 49 here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixwx_B38678">Marching On in Libya, for the revolutionaries!

A rebel relaxes in style

Photograph: Reuters

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE7260G620110307">Africans say Libyan troops try to make them fight
RAS JDIR CAMP, Tunisia (Reuters) - Libyan troops loyal to Muammar Gaddafi are rounding up black African migrants to force them to fight anti-Gaddafi rebels, young African men who fled to Tunisia said on Monday.

In separate accounts at this refugee camp, they said they were raided in their homes by soldiers, beaten and robbed of their savings and identity papers, then detained and finally offered money to take up arms for the state.

Those who refused were told they would never leave, said Fergo Fevomoye, a 23-year-old who crossed the border on Sunday.

"They will give you a gun and train you like a soldier. Then you fight the war of Libya. As I am talking to you now there is many blacks in training who say they are going to fight this war. They have prized (paid) them with lots of money."

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/04/07/general-us-us-libya_8396918.html">General: US may consider sending troops into Libya
WASHINGTON -- The U.S. may consider sending troops into Libya with a possible international ground force that could aid the rebels, the former U.S. commander of the military mission said Thursday, describing the ongoing operation as a stalemate that is more likely to go on now that America has handed control to NATO.

But Army Gen. Carter Ham also told lawmakers that American participation in a ground force would not be ideal, since it could erode the international coalition attacking Moammar Gadhafi's forces and make it more difficult to get Arab support for operations in Libya.

He said NATO has done an effective job in an increasingly complex combat situation. But he noted that, in a new tactic, Gadhafi's forces are making airstrikes more difficult by staging their fighters and vehicles near civilian areas such as schools and mosques.

The use of an international ground force is a possible plan to bolster the Libyan rebels, Ham said at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing.

Sorry guys, I am against this, I know a lot of people want the revolutionaries to succeed, but their success will be completely muddled if political opportunists use an occupation to sully it. People are already revelling in the very idea this could happen (despite that President Obama refused to commit military troops).

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFBRU01143720110407">NATO: Gaddafi's forces to blame for oilfield fire
But rebels blamed Gaddafi forces, saying government attacks on three different installations in the east of the country had halted production of the oil they need to finance the eight-week uprising against Gaddafi.

"We are aware that pro-Gaddafi forces have attacked this area in recent days, which resulted in at least one fire at an oil facility north of Sarir," Canadian Lieutenant General Charles Bouchard, commander of NATO's operations in Libya, said in a statement.

"To try and blame it on NATO is a clear demonstration how desperate this regime is," he said.

He added that NATO, which is filling a United Nations mandate to protect civilians in Libya through air strikes and enforcement of a no-fly zone, was not conducting strikes in the area because there was no threat to the civilian population there.

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/04/video-the-moment-revolutionaries-were-bombed-from-the-air-april-7th/">Video: The moment revolutionaries were bombed from the air April 7th
Wefaq Media have posted a video showing the moment that revolutionaries were bombed by an unknown plane earlier yesterday (April 7th). General AbdulFatah Younis has since issued a statement saying that NATO has apologised for the attack

And for some bit of humor / lightheartedness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFAx_E5vw5E">ANTI GADDAFI SONG! (Irish Rebel Song by The Paddyman)
This is a rebel song, written and performed by the PADDYMAN in support of the Libyan people, a few hours before I played a few tunes to open for the Irish Rebel Band - The Wolfe Tones - who sing about the Irish Troubles. Let's hope the troubles in Libya don't go on for as long as those in Ireland. This song is written to the tune of the Irish song - I'll tell me ma - and the chorus bit about Moussa Koussa and Bouazizi was inspired by the great song Lisdoonvarna by fellow Kildare man Christy Moore. Kevin Morris on the box as always.

Finally, Turborama posted another interview with al-Obeidy (raped Libyan woman who bravely came forward): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=571083&mesg_id=571083



http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/25/world/middleeast/map-of-how-the-protests-unfolded-in-libya.html">Click here for updated map

Video of the convoy sent to take Benghazi, taken from a dead soliders cell phone (shows how massive the operation was): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWwOeZqz6M

Sky News went with Gaddafi minders to find a "civilian town bombed" only they were never shown any such thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O5KJavfiQo

TNC presser talking about various details of the revolution (thanks to Waiting for Everyone): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=730234&mesg_id=731532

Topic on the women of the revolution, dispels myths that they are treated poorly: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x594751

Videos to bring the Libyan Revolution into context:

The Battle of Benghazi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vChMDuNd0

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaPnMnpCAA

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzwQvcx62s

Tea of Freedom Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5tu5bJWKc

Latest indiscriminate shelling in Misurata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wop3C4zrPXI

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x677397">Text of the resolution.

How will a no fly zone work? AJE reports: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEwehTtK2k

Canada: http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110317/cf-libya-canada/20110317/?hub=WinnipegHome">Canada to send six CF-18s for Libya 'no-fly' mission Norway: http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFOSN00509220110318">Norway to join military intervention in Libya Belgium: http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/monde/2011-03-18/la-belgique-prete-a-une-operation-militaire-en-libye-828970.php">Belgium ready for a military operation in Libya Qatar and the UAE: http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/776/?SID=e80884adc09a37d26904578a9b5978cb">Run-up for Western world’s next military commitment ... with unusual support Denmark: http://www.cphpost.dk/news/international/89-international/51229-denmark-ready-for-action-against-gaddafi.html">Denmark ready for action against Gaddafi France: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/world/africa/19libya.html?src=twrhp">Following U.N. Vote, France Vows Libya Action ‘Soon’ Italy: http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE72G2HE20110317">Italy to make bases available for Libya no-fly zone-source United Kingdom: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12770467">Libya: UK forces prepare after UN no-fly zone vote United States: http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nations-draw-up-plans-for-no-fly-zone-over-libya-1.2765122">Nations draw up plans for no-fly zone over Libya Jordan: http://www.smh.com.au/world/military-strikes-on-libya-within-hours-20110318-1bzii.html?from=smh_sb">Military strikes on Libya 'within hours' Spain: http://english.cri.cn/6966/2011/03/19/2801s627320.htm">Spain Expected to Join NATO No-fly Zone Enforcement over Libya

"One month ago (Western countries) were sooo nice, so nice like pussycats," Saif says in a contemptuous sing-song tone."Now they want to be really aggressive like tigers. (But) soon they will come back, and cut oil deals, contracts. We know this game." - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058389,00.html">Saif Gaddafi

(Yeah, Saif, as if you weren't "cutting oil deals, contracts" with western states. Who are the 'tigers' now? Bombing your own people.)

http://jenkinsear.com/2011/03/19/a-legal-war-the-united-nations-participation-act-and-libya/">A Legal War: The United Nations Participation Act and Libya
The above link is to an overview of why Obama's implementation of the NFZ and R2P is perfectly legal under the law. I will not post it entirely here, however, all objections come down to the misinformed position that Obama, by using forces in Libya, was invoking Article 43 of the United Nations. This is wrong. Obama invoked Article 42, which does not require congressional approval to implement. Proof of this is that Article 43 has http://www.un.org/en/sc/repertoire/actions.shtml#rel5">never been used.

It goes like this: The US law (Title 22, Chap. 7, Subchap. XIV § 287d) grants the President the right to invoke UN Article 42 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode22/usc_sec_22_00000287---d000-.html">without authorization, the War Powers Act (Title 50, Chap. 33 § 1541) grants the President permission to act without authorization under http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/1541–1548.html">"specific statutory authorization" which, by definition, is what 287d does. § 1543 of the War Powers Act requires the President to report to Congress, http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/obama_explains_libya_mission_to_congress/2011/03/03/ABU9377_blog.html">which he did. One can argue all day and night about the legality of the War Powers Act, doesn't change the fact that under the law as it is written, the President acted within the law.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0">March 10 7:28pm Saif al Islam Gaddafi says "the time has come for full-scale military action" against Libyan rebels. He goes on to say that Libyan forces loyal to his family "will never surrender, even if western powers intervene".

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/2011/03/2011328194855872276.html">Libyan Karzai? Chalabi? Forget it
Fortunately, the Council wasn't made-in-the-USA or manufactured by another foreign power. Rather it came into existence, a month ago, at Libyans' own initiative, soon after the winds of revolutionary change blew Libya's way, and after its people rose to the occasion with pride and courage.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/03/31/getting_libyas_rebels_wrong">Getting Libya's Rebels Wrong
Don't buy Qaddafi's line: The rebels aren't al Qaeda.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/04/04/110404taco_talk_anderson#ixzz1HvS7iW22">Who Are the Rebels?
During weeks of reporting in Benghazi and along the chaotic, shifting front line, I’ve spent a great deal of time with these volunteers. The hard core of the fighters has been the shabab—the young people whose protests in mid-February sparked the uprising. They range from street toughs to university students (many in computer science, engineering, or medicine), and have been joined by unemployed hipsters and middle-aged mechanics, merchants, and storekeepers. There is a contingent of workers for foreign companies: oil and maritime engineers, construction supervisors, translators. There are former soldiers, their gunstocks painted red, green, and black—the suddenly ubiquitous colors of the pre-Qaddafi Libyan flag.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/29/vision-democratic-libya-interim-national-council">A vision of a democratic Libya
The interim national council, formed by opposition groups in Libya, has said it will hold free and fair elections and draft a national constitution. Here is its eight-point plan in full.

Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

"I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to lose the battle" -Mohammed Nabbous, a month ago when all this began

I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Mo's first report, which many of you may remember, begging for help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EXALI60hg

Mo's last report, a fallen hero trying to spread the word to the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecu_iWLn-rg

Mo leaves behind a wife who is with child, she had http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/a_bright_voice_from_libyas_darkness">this to say about the No Fly Zone and R2P UN resolution:

We started this in a pure way, but he turned it bloody. Thousands of our men, women, and children have died. We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it. All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up. We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else. If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore.

[joshcryer]

1. Current time in Libya, 3:01am Friday, April 8

[joshcryer]

2. Please follow the Ivory Coast updates here:

http://jenkinsear.com/

[joshcryer]

20. Attack on Gbagbo bunker in Ivory Coast repelled

http://af.reuters.com/article/ivoryCoastNews/idAFLDE73500H20110406?sp=true">Attack on Gbagbo bunker in Ivory Coast repelled
ABIDJAN, April 6 (Reuters) - Forces loyal to Ivory Coast presidential claimant Alassane Ouattara launched a heavy attack on Wednesday on the bunker where Laurent Gbagbo is holed up but appeared to have been repelled, a Western military source said.

Fighting raged for a third consecutive day in the economic capital Abidjan as Ouattara's forces tried to unseat Gbagbo, who has refused to cede power after losing a November election to Ouattara, according to U.N.-certified results.

The source, who lives near Gbagbo's heavily guarded residence in Abidjan, said fighting had died down in the afternoon and Ouattara's forces had regrouped.

"As I understand it, they tried to take Gbagbo's residence this morning. The assault failed," said the source, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Fucking Gaddafi is going to be 100x harder to get.

[joshcryer]

21. An Era of Intervention? (Libya and Cote d'Ivoire)

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/04/an-era-of-intervention/236892/">An Era of Intervention? (Libya and Cote d'Ivoire)
In the spring of 1993, a few months into negotiations between government and rebel forces in Rwanda, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense James Woods prepared for Bill Clinton's arrival at the White House. A veteran of both the Reagan and Bush administrations, Woods had watched the Rwanda civil war take on increasingly ethnic overtones and worried the fragile cease-fire could collapse. So when asked to write out the problems Clinton might face in office, "I put Rwanda-Burundi on the list," Woods told PBS Frontline several years later. But he was told that sectarian violence in the small African nation was not a concern for the U.S.

"I won't go into personalities, but I received guidance from higher authorities, 'Look, if something happens in Rwanda-Burundi, we don't care. Take it off the list. It's not -- U.S. national interest is not involved and,' you know, 'we can't put all these silly humanitarian issues on lists like important problems like the Middle East and North Korea' and so on," Woods recalled. When war resumed, and the war turned to genocide, the U.S. -- along with France, Italy, and Belgium -- sent enough troops to evacuate its civilians, and then left.

Less than a year earlier, 18 U.S. soldiers had been killed and 73 wounded in a short but disastrous mission in Somalia. Invading Rwanda to stop the civil war would have required thousands of foreign troops on extended, open-ended deployments. The Clinton administration decided that intervention was not an option.

Excellent essay.

[tabatha]

133. Agreed.

The last paragraph:

"International norms of the post-Cold War wold, we often forget, are still largely unshaped. Non-democratic rules are inherently brutal and autocratic, but that brutality and autocracy have been reinforced by 20-plus years of international norms telling them that they can get away with bloody, lifelong rule. With swift, decisive international action in Libya and in Côte d'Ivoire, we may be entering a new era where such leaders understand that they are not all-powerful within their own borders. The red lines are still not clear, nor are the repercussions of crossing them. But in this new, emerging system, the red lines do exist, and so do the repercussions. Seventeen years after watching as Rwanda descended into civil war and then genocide, the world seems to be saying, Never again."

is a strong argument against those who do not support this intervention. In other words, those who do not support intervention by default support the propping up of brutal and autocratic rule. Which is worse?

[joshcryer]

3. Libyan Rebels Don’t Really Add Up to an Army

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/world/africa/07rebels.html">Libyan Rebels Don’t Really Add Up to an Army
BENGHAZI, Libya — Late Monday afternoon, as Libyan rebels prepared another desperate attack on the eastern oil town of Brega, a young rebel raised his rocket-propelled grenade as if to fire. The town’s university, shimmering in the distance, was far beyond his weapon’s maximum range. An older rebel urged him to hold fire, telling him the weapon’s back-blast could do little more than reveal their position and draw a mortar attack.

The younger rebel almost spat with disgust. “I have been fighting for 37 days!” he shouted. “Nobody can tell me what to do!”

The outburst midfight — and the ensuing argument between a determined young man who seemed to have almost no understanding of modern war and an older man who wisely counseled caution — underscored a fact that is self-evident almost everywhere on Libya’s eastern front. The rebel military, as it sometimes called, is not really a military at all.

What is visible in battle here is less an organized force than the martial manifestation of a popular uprising.

[joshcryer]

6. Rebels without a corps: Benghazi's defenders strive to become an army

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/07/benghazi-rebel-boot-camp-training">Rebels without a corps: Benghazi's defenders strive to become an army
Mareh Bejou was a pilot for Emirates when he flew in to Tripoli in mid-February. The next day he was a revolutionary who told his airline it had better send another pilot to take the plane back to Dubai.

Now Bejou, after his own crash course in fighting and surviving on the battlefield, is one of those in charge of a military training camp attempting to turn the volunteers of Benghazi into soldiers against Muammar Gaddafi

"I came to do my part in a peaceful demonstration but we were met with guns. For four days they were shooting at us, even using anti-aircraft guns. So I learned how to use a Kalashnikov and an RPG on the battlefield," said Bejou, who has been a pilot for 30 years. "I spent three weeks on the battlefield and it wasn't organised at all. No discipline. No one knew how to use their weapons. We set up this camp to change that."

[joshcryer]

4. Saif Gaddafi: his father's son, or the would-be face of Libyan reform?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/07/saif-gaddafi-libya-reform">Saif Gaddafi: his father's son, or the would-be face of Libyan reform?
On 19 February Dr Muhammad al-Houni, a Libyan academic and long-time adviser to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam, finished a speech he had written for his patron to deliver on state television in the midst of a crisis.

Four days into the Libyan uprising, Houni suggested Saif strike a conciliatory tone. He should apologise for those who had died in the country's east. He should insist too on the necessity of reforming his father's four-decades-old regime, announcing a tranche of long-promised laws to usher in new freedoms.

"I wrote down what he must say," Houni recalled on Thursday. "I said he should say sorry for the victims. But he went to his father and his father did not like it. So his father changed the speech."

Wow. You've gotta be kidding me.

[joshcryer]

5. Libyan minister to take Turkish peace plan to Gaddafi

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/07/libya-minister-turkish-peace-plan-gaddafi">Libyan minister to take Turkish peace plan to Gaddafi
Turkey has proposed a path to a peaceful resolution to the deadlocked conflict in Libya, involving a withdrawal by Muammar Gaddafi's forces from cities held by the rebels, and democratic reform.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister, has outlined the proposal in Ankara, saying: "We are working on the details of this roadmap." It would include humanitarian corridors in Libya, he said.

Turkey, which this week hosted an envoy from the Gaddafi regime, the new foreign minister, Abdel Ati al-Obeidi, said the measures would be discussed at an international meeting on Libya in Qatar next week. The US, European countries and Middle Eastern allies will take part.

[joshcryer]

7. Muammar Gaddafi's former energy minister flees to Malta

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/07/shatwan-flees-libya-malta">Muammar Gaddafi's former energy minister flees to Malta
Libya's former energy minister has fled to Europe, and says that several other key political figures also want to defect.

Omar Fathi bin Shatwan, who was energy minister from 2004 to 2006, said members of Muammar Gaddafi's inner circle also wanted to leave Libya, but feared for their lives.

Shatwan, who also served as industry minister, fled to Malta on Friday from the besieged city of Misrata, the Maltese foreign ministry said. He arrived in the country but his presence had been kept a secret, it said.

[joshcryer]

8. Libya opposition says another NATO airstrike has killed rebels

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-airstrikes-20110408,0,753244.story">Libya opposition says another NATO airstrike has killed rebels
Reporting from Benghazi and Tripoli, Libya—

Four Libyan rebels were killed in an airstrike Thursday that the opposition's top general blamed on NATO.

The incident followed the death of 13 rebels last weekend when a NATO warplane mistakenly opened fire on the fighters, according to the rebels' military command. The latest episode was met with frustration among the opposition's leaders, who accused the West of not moving aggressively to stop Libyan leader Moammar Kadafi's forces as they besiege cities and advance on the rebels' battle positions.

[joshcryer]

9. What happens to journalists who fall into the wrong hands...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/apr/07/journalist-safety-press-freedom">What happens to journalists who fall into the wrong hands...
In my London Evening Standard column yesterday I wrote about the increasing number of journalists held in jails across the world.

By coincidence, a US college website - Toponlinecolleges.com - has just compiled what it calls the 10 scariest journalist arrests in American history.

In fact, the title is rather misleading (and a tad trite) because many of the arrests led directly to murder. And the arrests do not only involve official action by state authorities, but also involve abductions by terrorist groups.

:(

[pinboy3niner]

10. U.S. still providing strike aircraft to NATO, including AC-130 gunships--former mission commander

From an MSNBC news report on the Senate testimony of Army Gen. Carter Ham, Commander, U.S. Africa Command, today:

Ham also disclosed that the U.S. is providing some strike aircraft to the NATO operation that do not need to go through the special approval process recently established. The powerful side-firing AC-130 gunship is available to NATO commanders, he said.

His answer countered earlier claims by the Pentagon that all strike aircraft must be requested through U.S. European Command and approved by top U.S. leaders, including Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Ham said that process still applies to other fighters and the A-10 Thunderbolt, which can provide close air support for ground forces, He said that process is quick, and other defense officials have said it can take about a day for the U.S. to approve the request and move the aircraft in from bases in Europe.

Overall, he said the U.S. is providing less than 15 percent of the airstrikes and between 60 percent and 70 percent of the support effort, which includes intelligence gathering, surveillance, electronic warfare and refueling.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42468330/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa

[tabatha]

12. Tweets tonight. Tweets always need confirmation.

lenzaholic‎ RT @SoraidaSalwala: RT “@jeffwar1: FLASH:NATO jets now pounding Sirte and Misrata. Attack helicopters now aiding fight for the first time in conflict #Libya”

Frankie7500‎ Its about f---ing time NATO jets now pounding Sirte and Misrata. Attack helicopters now aiding fight for the first time in conflict #Libya”

Soknia‎ RT @AndrewSmith09: RT @Gheblawi: NATO jets now pounding #Sirte and #Misurata. Attack helicopters now aiding fight for the first time in conflict #Libya

[joshcryer]

13. Grain of salt, here.

I read that Gaddafi's troops have tens of thousands of surface to air missiles (shoulder missiles), I don't see the west risking it. It's one thing to try to shoot a jet going Mach 1, it's another thing entirely to shoot a helicopter hovering. Though granted heli's do have some serious distance advantage going for them, but Afghanistan showed that they're not immune to coming down.

We'll see, though, I do hope it's true.

[pinboy3niner]

15. According to tweets, the opposition captured Brega 37 times! :)

They're useful, as long as we keep them in perspective.

Good to see you back, Josh--I'm beat! I'll be around for a little while, but I'm off-duty--and soon sound

asleep, I hope. Oh...but I want to see AC360...

Still struggling with the computer, too. I'm going to start calling it 'HAL.' :evilfrown:


:hi:

[joshcryer]

16. Get some sleep, I'll try to keep it kicked on the hour.

My rush updates are just editorials that I post here, I usually catch up on all of The Guardian's editorials for the day, gives you a good idea what is going on for that day.

[MedleyMisty]

14. I don't recognize any of those names

Except Gheblawi, who doesn't seem to be really part of the inner circle.

I hope they're true but I'm waiting for confirmation too. Don't see anything about it on the accounts I follow.

There's no way at all to get confirmation on the rumors about Tripoli, but I do hear from people that I sort of trust that there are acts of resistance there all the time and there's a sort of street guerrilla war, with freedom fighters drawing out Gaddafi troops and ambushing them and taking their weapons and Gaddafi troops going out disguised as the resistance and then opening fire on freedom fighters. Again - just rumors.

[joshcryer]

11. Libyan defector Moussa Koussa interviewed over Lockerbie

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/08/moussa-koussa-lockerbie-police-interview">Libyan defector Moussa Koussa interviewed over Lockerbie
Police investigating the Lockerbie bombing have met with the defector and former Libyan foreign minister Moussa Koussa, it has emerged.

Scottish police requested an interview with him at a meeting with Foreign Office officials on Monday.

[pinboy3niner]

17. Opposition military chief confirms receiving antitank weapons from Qatar

On Thursday, Abdel Fattah Younes, the defected head of the rebel military, confirmed for the first time that the opposition forces have received foreign weapons: anti-tank guns from Qatar. The tiny but wealthy Gulf country has been at the forefront of support for Libya's anti-Gaddafi movement, offering them official recognition and to be a broker for their oil.

2:18am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-8

[joshcryer]

18. Residents shelter from mortars in Libya's Misrata

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/07/uk-libya-misrata-fighting-idUKTRE7365PF20110407">Residents shelter from mortars in Libya's Misrata
(Reuters) - People in the Libyan city of Misrata are crammed five families to a house in the few safe districts to try to escape mortar rounds being fired by government forces, a rebel spokesman said Thursday.

Rebels fought forces loyal to leader Muammar Gaddafi on a key road to the city's port as government forces tried to advance, two rebel spokesmen said. Rebels also fought government snipers and pushed some back from their positions near the centre, a political activist said.

Government troops have mounted mortars on the rooftops of buildings, extending their range into almost every part of the city, rebels said. Misrata is the only big rebel stronghold left in western Libya, but weeks of artillery attacks and sniper fire have shrunk the parts of the city controlled by rebels.

[joshcryer]

19. Libyan rebel rejects any talks with Gaddafi

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/07/uk-libya-turkey-rebel-idUKTRE7366FI20110407">Libyan rebel rejects any talks with Gaddafi
(Reuters) - A Libyan rebel spokesman, responding to a Turkish effort to negotiate a cease-fire, said on Thursday the rebels rejected talks with Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and demanded he leave power.

Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said earlier that Turkey was working on a "road map" to end the war in Libya which would include a cease-fire and the withdrawal of Gaddafi's forces from some cities. Turkey has held talks with envoys from Gaddafi's government and representatives of the opposition.

"We respect the ... Turkish people's position but Erdogan's position does not express the opinion of the Turkish people," rebel spokesman Colonel Ahmad Bani told Al Arabiya television.

[joshcryer]

22. Casualties complicate NATO tactics in Libya

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/07/uk-libya-nato-tactics-idUKTRE73666U20110407">Casualties complicate NATO tactics in Libya
(Reuters) - Reports of civilian casualties in Libya have shown the limitations of NATO's ability to step up its military involvement to break a stalemate between rebels and forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi.

NATO, which took control of a Western military campaign against Gaddafi last week from a coalition led by the United States, Britain and France, faces mounting pressure to address complaints by rebels that it is not doing enough to help them.

Its firepower has helped keep a balance in Libya so far, preventing Gaddafi's forces overrunning the seven-week old revolt that started in the port city of Benghazi.

[joshcryer]

23. UK: Libya Conflict Prompts Defence Cuts Rethink

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Defence-Cut-Rethink-Amid-Military-Action-In-Libya/Article/201104215968495?lpos=Politics_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15968495_Defence_Cut_Rethink_Amid_Military_Action_In_Libya">Libya Conflict Prompts Defence Cuts Rethink
Military action in Libya has prompted Prime Minister David Cameron to launch a rethink on defence cuts, Sky News has learned.

Changes could include U-turns on plans to cut the number of RAF Tornados and scrap surveillance planes.

A senior Government insider said the Prime Minister was not planning to reopen or rewrite the Strategic Defence and Security Review.

But the source told Sky News: "Obviously we are always looking to check we have all we need. You don't just have a review and leave it at that."

[defendandprotect]

24. BREAKING Video: The moment revolutionaries were bombed from the air by NATO fighter jet April 7th -

BREAKING Video: The moment revolutionaries were bombed from the air by NATO fighter jet April 7th - #libya #feb17 - http://t.co/MAeopad
2 minutes ago via Tweet Button

BREAKING Video: The moment revolutionaries were bombed from the air by NATO fighter jet April 7th - #libya #feb17 - http://t.co/MAeopad
2 minutes ago via Tweet Button

[defendandprotect]

25. BREAKING: NATO fighter jets have just bombed Gaddafi forces between Brega & Ras Lanouf

BREAKING: NATO fighter jets have just bombed Gaddafi forces between Brega & Ras Lanouf - #Libya Feb17 - http://t.co/OgfJDZH
about 1 hour ago via web

[defendandprotect]

26. DIRECT from MIsratah: NATO fighter jets can be heard flying over the city right now

DIRECT from MIsratah: NATO fighter jets can be heard flying over the city right now - #Libya #Feb17 - http://t.co/OgfJDZH
about 1 hour ago via web

also --


World Food Programme ship arrives in Misrata with food, medical supplies, doctors - #libya #feb17 - http://t.co/OgfJDZH
about 6 hours ago via Tweet Button




How much of Misrata do rebels still control??

[defendandprotect]

27. CBS News: General: U.S. may consider troops in Libya

General: U.S. may consider troops in Libya - #libya #feb17 - http://t.co/HLFAMEx
about 1 hour ago via Tweet Button

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/04/general-u-s-may-consider-troops-in-libya/



Valid report but think the General may be in question???

[David__77]

30. Chief of staff just said otherwise two days ago, but it could be a trial balloon.

Or it could be an off-the-cuff statement in response to the fact that they cannot do much from the air only.

[defendandprotect]

34. Can only conclude we have rw influences on this mission --

doing intentional harm --

Saw praise for Ham previously, but think it would be a rather strange trial

balloon for Obama to float given the lack of "interest" US is said to have and

the lack of support, as far as I can see. Why pull out as they did the other

day if they eventually hope to put troops on the ground? Clearing the field

would then seem to be what they'd be after?

Of course, if you don't see the interview -- maybe the guy was just opining -- !!!

[joshcryer]

28. Libya: two British businessmen held in brutal Libyan prison

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8436286/Libya-two-British-businessmen-held-in-brutal-Libyan-prison.html">Libya: two British businessmen held in brutal Libyan prison
Asma Ghoneim, the wife of Zeyad Ramadan, 39, said he and his brother Ghazi, 40, were seized in a Tripoli flat where they stayed on business trips to Tripoli.

"Its very important that every knows they were not political. They were business on a regular trip to Libya," she said. "I appeal to the Libyan government to look into this. My husband was a diabetic and needs daily medicine. I am very worried about him." The Leeds-born brothers provided software to Libya's mobile phone companies.

Witnesses reported that state security agents burst into the flat on March 19. After several hours of questioning, the Ramadans and two Libyan visitors were lead away.

[joshcryer]

29. Directed by adults, Libyan children salute Gaddafi

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/07/uk-libya-children-idUKTRE73662M20110407">Directed by adults, Libyan children salute Gaddafi
(Reuters) - Walking down a Tripoli street with a bag full of freshly baked bread, a Libyan man frowned when he saw crowds of children chanting the praises of Brother Leader Muammar Gaddafi.

As explosions from what appeared to be NATO air strikes echoed in Tripoli, hundreds of children were taken by bus to a square outside a United Nations office, given green flags of Gaddafi's revolution and told to shout anti-Western slogans.

"The children were brought here. This is their education. They shout all day instead of studying," said the man, shaking his head. He said he always supported Gaddafi but was upset with the authorities allowing Libya to descend into civil war.

[David__77]

31. I think this man represents a lot of Libyans.

"'Cameron is a problem, he is bombing Libya,' he said, in a reference to Britain's part in the NATO campaign against Libya. 'But this is a problem too,' he added, pointing at the children."

He is not really with one side or the other. Now, it is possible for either the hard-core loyalists or the rebels to achieve outright victory, and to repress the other side through state power. But I do wonder what this man who was speaking wants.

[joshcryer]

33. It's a really touching article. And I agree.

I think he represents most Libyans in general.

What does he probably want?

Peace.

[defendandprotect]

35. The exploitation of the children a reminder of other fascist rule --

[joshcryer]

36. Yeah, I am not fond of "bussing in protesters."

Reminds me too much of Miami Dade.

[defendandprotect]

38. Evidently our new Chief Justice Roberts was in charge of all of that --

designed their resistance -- including the rally, allegedly!!

Sweet reward?

[joshcryer]

40. There's a caption of that pic somewhere...

...lots of people were connected or in.

I think these kids are just getting soda pop and some other fun stuff, maybe comics. We know that they were giving out alcohol and cigarettes to any of the adult protesters who showed up.

[defendandprotect]

45. Lists all the names -- they were all connected to GOP --

but Roberts was evidently tight in on the planning for holding onto a "win" for W --

on legal matters and stuff like that fascist rally -- totally paid for by GOP!

Sad for kids --

[tabatha]

50. SITUATION REPORT: LIBYA

* Payments to mercenaries indicate that Gaddafi remains cash rich; use of mercenaries indicates that Gaddafi’s support among Libyan people is slight; and, level of compensation provided to mercenaries coupled with acute poverty in bordering nations will likely lead to a constant flow of mercenaries into Libya absent affirmative efforts to stop their entry into the country and/or cut-off any access Gaddafi maintains to cash

* Conscription of migrants presents significant human rights issue and helps Gaddafi maintain ranks

* Attacks on opposition-held oil fields, if successful, may undermine NTC’s ability to fund its military and political operations

http://feb17.info/news/situation-report-libya-april-7-2011/

[David__77]

52. So they say...

Maybe. I was talking about the people who are rather aloof from the conflict, or, alternatively, are frustrated with all sides.

[defendandprotect]

32. Libyan rebels and citizens flee Ajdabiya

Groups of Libyan rebels and civilians have fled from the eastern town of Ajdabiya after a rebel armoured unit was hit by apparent NATO air strikes, allowing government troops to advance.

Families packed into cars and trucks on Thursday and joined rebel military vehicles in a convoy heading northeast toward the de facto opposition capital of Benghazi, around 160 kilometres away.

The retreat began soon after rebel tanks were hit by an air strike around midday near the key oil town of Brega, 80 kilometres west of Ajdabiya. Many rebel fighters remained in the town along with doctors at the hospital, after its patients were evacuated to Benghazi as a precaution, Ajdabiya Hospital administrator Majbali Yunis said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/2011480523612561.html

[defendandprotect]

37. Turkey working on roadmap for peace in Libya, says PM Erdogan

Turkey’s prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has proposed a roadmap for peace in Libya, urging forces aligned with Muammar Gaddafi to withdraw from besieged cities, and calling for the establishment of humanitarian aid corridors and comprehensive democratic change.

Erdogan said the measures would be discussed at a meeting by a group set up to guide the international intervention in Libya in Qatar next week.

Turkey has held talks this week with envoys from Gaddafi’s government and representatives of the Libyan opposition

Erdogan also assured the opposition that Turkey supports their demands, following recent protests in Libya against Turkey by some opposition members.


http://www.libyafeb17.com/

[joshcryer]

39. Al Jazeera says reports are emerging that it might not have been NATO that hit rebels in Ajdabiya

6:19am Al Jazeera's Laurence Lee, in Benghazi, says reports are emerging that it might not have been NATO that hit a rebel armoured unit in Ajdabiya. He says it might instead have been a light plane used by Gaddafi forces, suggesting that they are getting arms from outside.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-8#update-24156

This is highly unusual for AJE to be reporting as plausible. NATO ignored Q&As, did not confirm or deny that they did it. We'll see soon enough, just like with the oil pipeline example (NATO denied it, Gaddafi likely did it, etc).

Something doesn't look right in the video of the falling munitions, it seems to be falling way too slow for a modern airstrike.

Like I said, we'll see.

[tabatha]

41. miusrata17miusrata -YouTube channel devoted to Miusrata

http://www.youtube.com/user/miusrata17miusrata


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygKbDwlfZv0

Holy cow.

[defendandprotect]

43. K/R

Seems like they're finally getting a bit of aid -- two doctors,

some foodstuff - medical supplies --

[joshcryer]

44. When this is over people will understand.

[defendandprotect]

47. Won't Gaddafi come in to clean up as he has done elsewhere?

Was thinking this is looking like Misurata will be another one for the history

books, but frankly Gaddafi history is going to be like reporting Hitler's history!!

Every bit of it historical!!

[David__77]

53. The winners to determine these things.

...

[defendandprotect]

82. After looking at the destruction, no way G can clean that up!! Undeniable war crimes!!

[defendandprotect]

42. A little humor we might all feel some sympathy with?

ChicagoRay44: "We are currently doing all we can to bomb, strafe and carry the rebels into power in Libya. We just don’t know who they are." O/Hillary. ;)

[defendandprotect]

46. More on General Ham -- More on Gaddafi assets frozen in Europe

17:35 Reuters US General Carter Ham told the US senate that he believed there was a stalemate emerging between Gaddafi forces and the opposition. He also added that he considers it unlikely that revolutionaries will be able to fight their way to Tripoli to replace Gaddafi.

15:38 Reuters David Cohen, the US Treasury’s acting undersecretary for terrorism and financial intelligence, said a substantial additional amount of Gaddafi regime assets have been frozen in Europe, although it’s probably less than the $34 billion under US jurisdiction.

Read more: http://www.thehotjoints.com/2011/03/01/us-treasury-blocks-record-30bn-of-libya-assets/#ixzz1IqigZ2gT

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/04/april-7th-updates/

[defendandprotect]

48. Telegraph commenting on CIA in Libya --

Editorial --

11:41 The Telegraph According to comments editor Adrian Hamilton of the Independent, the CIA is increasing its operations on the ground while reducing its air defence role: “The CIA is coming back into its own, as is the State Department. What else is General Khalefa Heftar, brought over from US exile to put some discipline into the rebel fighters, but Washington’s man? Who is wielding the greatest influence (to the fury of the French) over the Tunisian and Egyptian armies currently in charge of their countries but the Pentagon and the US intelligence? Even more so in the Yemen, where Washington is trying to effect an acceptable takeover from President Ali Abdullah Saleh. We’re back to the old days of the Cold War. Whether the inhabitants of the countries will be quite so pleased is another question.”

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/04/april-7th-updates/

[tabatha]

49. SITUATION REPORT: LIBYA April 7, 2011 Prepared by: Libya Outreach Group

Despite recent defections and significant political setbacks suffered by the Gaddafi regime and corresponding political victories by the National Transitional Council, the military situation remains largely unchanged as of today, April 7, 2011. Opposition forces reasserted control over parts of Brega but Gaddafi forces continue to bombard Misrata and damaged various opposition-held oil fields.

Ceasefire talks also remain at an impasse with the Turkish government now seeking to bridge the divide between the regime and the opposition. Risks exist as the opposition seems to take issue with various Turkish tactics.

The Libyan opposition and its National Transitional Council witnessed two positive developments yesterday, April 6, 2011: (1) completed its first oil transaction, (2) reasserted control over parts of Brega, and (3) began web broadcasts of its radio network.

Based on yesterday’s events, international policymakers can best support the Libyan opposition by:

* Widening NATO’s efforts to the full extent allowed under UN Resolution 1973
* Conduct targeted airstrikes in and around Misrata to prevent further civilian causalities
* Allow the National Transitional Council to engage in an airborne offensive against Gaddafi forces
* Exempt all opposition-backed oil transactions from international sanctions
* Promote and facilitate the post-Gaddafi planning process to prevent the creation of a power vacuum after the regime’s demise
* Officially recognize the National Transitional Council as the sole, legitimate representative of the Libyan people on an interim basis
* Create an international authority to regulate and oversee the Libyan oil trade
* Facilitate wider delivery of humanitarian aid to the Libyan people
* Ensure the continued liberation of Libya’s eastern oil fields

http://feb17.info/news/situation-report-libya-april-7-2011/

[joshcryer]

51. WFP vessel carrying food, aid reaches Misrata

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/07/uk-libya-misrata-boat-idUKTRE7365V920110407">WFP vessel carrying food, aid reaches Misrata
(Reuters) - A United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) humanitarian vessel reached the port of Misrata on Thursday, the body said, providing some relief to residents in the besieged Libyan city.

The vessel, carrying food, medical supplies, doctors and other relief items, docked in Misrata in the afternoon.

"This is a breakthrough for the U.N. humanitarian operation in Libya and allows us to reach tens of thousands of people who are caught in one of the fiercest areas of conflict," WFP Executive Director Josette Sheeran said in a statement.

As fighting between forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and rebels in Misrata continues, residents -- as well as thousands of migrant workers stranded there -- have faced shortages of basic foodstuffs, a lack of medical supplies and have only sporadic water and electricity.

[joshcryer]

54. Libyan assets frozen by U.S. exceed $34 billion - official

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/07/uk-libya-usa-assets-idUKTRE7364EQ20110407">Libyan assets frozen by U.S. exceed $34 billion - official
(Reuters) - Libyan assets frozen by the United States now exceed $34 billion (20 billion pounds) and some of the money could be used to meet humanitarian costs in Libya, the U.S. Treasury's top financial intelligence official said Thursday.

The Obama administration is working with Congress to determine what to do with the frozen assets of Muammar Gaddafi and his officials. Funds could be used to meet the needs of the Libyan population, said David Cohen, nominated to take over as the Treasury's undersecretary for terrorism and financial intelligence.

"That money is frozen, Colonel Gaddafi and his government cannot get access to it, and we are holding it for the Libyan people," Cohen told a confirmation hearing before the U.S. Senate Finance Committee.

Gaddafi, the "anti-imperialist."

[Mimosa]

55. Gaddafi's getting the Saddam treatment in every way

Isn't anybody suspicious?

[tabatha]

62. See #61

What do you mean by "in every way"?

[CJvR]

101. I would say Gaddafi isn't getting the full treatment.

Saddam after all was allowed to butcher his people in peace for a decade while we waited for the sanctions to bite before something was finally done about the SoB.

[Iterate]

56. UPDATE 1-Rebels counter Gaddafi assault on Misrata

BEIRUT, April 8 (Reuters) - Libyan government troops advanced on Misrata's eastern districts on Friday, triggering street-battles with rebels in the coastal city that forced residents to flee the area, a rebel spokesman said.

"They tried to advance and enter the city from the eastern side, from an area called Eqseer, which is a populated area. The rebels confronted them and clashes are continuing," rebel spokesman Hassan al-Misrati told Reuters by telephone.

The rebels were attempting to disrupt supply lines of government forces in an effort to loosen the grip of Muammar Gaddafi loyalists on Libya's third city, Misrati said.

"They (rebels) have cut the Tripoli road into four parts using huge containers filled with sand and stones. This way they have managed to block the back-up coming to the snipers. We have managed to liberate a few buildings," he added.

...

Complete:
http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE7370TA20110408?sp=true

[tabatha]

57. U.N. rights investigators to start probe in Libya

GENEVA, April 8 (Reuters) - U.N. investigators said on Friday they would start next week to probe alleged human rights violations committed in Libya by both forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi and rebels trying to topple him.

He said the team would gather testimony and cooperate with the International Criminal Court (ICC) in the Hague, whose prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo also is looking into possible war crimes by Gaddafi, his sons and his inner circle.

"We are going to Libya, both the eastern and western part of Libya," Bassiouni told a news conference in Geneva, referring to the largely rebel-held east and the government-held west.

The U.N. Human Rights Council, composed of 47 member states, unanimously approved the inquiry on Feb. 25. The Geneva forum denounced attacks on civilians, killings, arrests and the detention and torture of peaceful demonstrators, saying they may amount to crimes against humanity.

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/un-rights-investigators-to-start-probe-in-libya/

[defendandprotect]

83. LIBYA HURRA -- !!

[al bupp]

58. UNICEF: Snipers targeting kids in Libya

Source: Associated Press

GENEVA (AP) - Snipers are targeting children in the besieged rebel-held Libyan city of Misrata, the U.N.' s children agency said Friday.

Hundreds of residents have been killed and wounded in the assault by Gadhafi's forces on Libya's third-largest city, and residents are running short of water, food and medicine.

"What we have are reliable and consistent reports of children being among the people targeted by snipers in Misrata," UNICEF spokeswoman Marixie Mercado told reporters in Geneva.

The information was based on local sources, Mercado said. She was unable to say how many children have been wounded or killed in this way.

Read more: http://www.wane.com/dpps/news/international/unicef-says-snipers-targeting-children-in-libya-city-wd11-jgr_3768273

(Cross posted to Breaking News)

[Turborama]

73. I'm seeing a lot of denial...

...in LBN. Some feathers have been ruffled by this news, it seems.

[al bupp]

74. Sadly, that seems to be true

I happened to miss most of the content of the now deleted sub-thread, although it did include a reply of mine, not the cause of the deletion, I hope, though I must confess to having resorted to some sarcasm.

[tabatha]

75. Yeah, mine were.

I have added some more responses on that thread.

[Turborama]

I didn't mean yours

Although I can understand why they would be.

I was referring to those who seem to be in denial.

A story comes out about children being shot by snipers and what's the response?

Inappropriate jokes and conspiracy theory crap.

Along with the news itself, that's what's ruffling my feathers right now.

[tabatha]

79. I understood that.

Mine were ruffled by the replies.

Btw, the Red Cross is sending people to investigate the reports.

[tabatha]

59. Qatar PM says Gulf states seeking Yemen deal

(Reuters) - Qatar Prime Minister Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim al-Thani said on Wednesday that Gulf states hope to strike a deal with Yemen's president to step down.

"We hope that we will strike a deal," he told reporters on the sidelines of a Business and Investment in Qatar Forum in New York when asked if the Gulf Cooperation Council had reached such a pact for Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh to step down.

"We (the council) have been meeting for the last few days in Riyadh and we're sending a proposal for him and the opposition and we hope a meeting will be held between his team and the opposition to try to find a way out of this problem," he said.

Ali Abdullah Saleh's at times bloody response to protests, inspired by those in Egypt and Tunisia, against his 32-year rule has tried the patience of his U.S. and Saudi backers.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/06/yemen-president-qatar-idUSN0624812220110406

[tabatha]

60. Obama Moved at Warp Speed on Libya

President Obama has been criticized by many on the political left and right for moving too slowly in reacting to Libya -- and while I have been one constantly urging caution -- there is simply no truth to the notion that Obama dragged his heels in orchestrating action there.

Obama and his team -- everyone from Tom Donilon and Denis McDonough who ran a rigorous decisionmaking shop comprised of dozens of deputies and principals level meetings; to the team of Samantha Power, Ben Rhodes, Tommy Vietor, Gail Smith, Dan Shapiro, Michael McFaul, Dennis Ross, Jake Sullivan at State, and others from Treasury and DoD did a commendable job of outreach respectively to policy wonks, to national security journalists, and to Members of the Legislative Branch and their staffs; to the Diplomatic heavy lifting done by Hillary Clinton and Susan Rice; to the heavy internal molding of options and consideration of downside risk by Vice President Biden and Defense Secretary Gates -- everyone moved at warp speed compared to other potential and real humanitarian disasters to with the US and international community needed to respond.

....


I don't agree with everything this White House does -- but I have tremendous respect for the fact that Obama and his team have changed the dynamics of response to potential and real mass human tragedy.

-- Steve Clemons

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2011/03/obama_moved_at/

[tabatha]

61. Libya unique - Gates

14:20 Al Jazeera English US defence secretary Robert Gates says military action in Libya does not set a precedent for future intervention in other Middle Eastern countries facing uprisings or unrest. During a visit to the Marez Camp US military base in northern Iraq, he told reporters: “What has made Libya unique is first of all a request, which is unprecedented in my experience, of the Arab League actually asking for an intervention in the Middle East, to take on an Arab government mistreating its own people … It’s hard for me to imagine those kinds of circumstances being replicated any place else.”

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/04/april-8th-updates/

[defendandprotect]

76. Certainly Afghanistan and Iraq have only asked us to LEAVE -- !!

[al bupp]

63. CNN: Ben Wedeman on the phone from Ajdabiya

Fierce artillery barrage on the western approach to Ajdabiya. City seemingly empty of rebel "'army', if you can call it that", who appear to have fled for Benghazi. NATO efforts do not appear to be stopping Gaddafi's forces.

[defendandprotect]

77. Hard to believe that with NATO and NFZ that Gaddafi could have still had planes in air?

Is that possible?

[tabatha]

64. NATO and Libya - Air Strike against Gadaffi tank attacking Musrata

http://youtu.be/n8nP52fPA0Y

Video footage taken by a British Royal Air Force Tornado GR4 showing pro-Gadaffi forces using a tank to spearhead an attack in Musrata.

[tabatha]

65. Germany ready to support humanitarian mission in Libya

Germany said Friday its troops could support a humanitarian mission in Libya, but denied this is was a U-turn to fix diplomatic damage done by its refusal to support military action at the UN.

"In the last cabinet meeting (on Wednesday) the basic readiness was expressed ... that if a request were made to the EU, Germany would live up to its responsibilities," government spokesman Steffen Seibert told reporters.

The European Union on April 1 decided to set up a military mission to back humanitarian aid efforts in Libya, giving the United Nations a four-month window to call it in. The UN has not done so so far.


http://www.expatica.com/de/news/german-news/germany-ready-to-support-humanitarian-mission-in-libya_141279.html

[tabatha]

66. The myth of tribal Libya

In the last few weeks, the word “tribalism” has been used extensively in the context of the Libyan democratic uprising – a spectre looming over the country, embodying the devil we don’t know. This was first introduced into the public mind by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi during his address last month in which he threatened the bloodshed and destruction that his father’s regime has let loose on the Libyan people.

Disappointingly, this image of Libya as a backward tribal society with no real national identity has been picked up and amplified by many western pundits and politicians – often as part of their reasoning why military and material support for the Libyan revolution is a bad idea.

The regime has two main aims for this repeated yet baseless claim. First, people in western Libya are largely cut off from outside media and so the assertion that the Gaddafi regime has the allegiance of regional leaders is intended to crush the confidence of those wishing to rise up in their own cities. Second, it aims to confuse outsiders into believing that the Gaddafi regime is all that’s holding together a fractured and disunited people. Images of Iraq are the desired effect. Among some in the international press and anti-interventionist movements, Gaddafi’s aims seem to have been met without much resistance.

So what is the reality and importance of tribes in modern Libya? For much of Libyan history, tribal groupings were indeed a prevalent social phenomenon. However, when we refer to tribes in today’s Libya we are simply talking about a historical structuring of regional communities in a massive country. These are not the same as distinct sub-national groupings that supersede people’s national identity as Libyans – an identity defended at great cost against fascist Italy and postwar attempts by the British to divide the country.

http://feb17.info/editorials/the-myth-of-tribal-libya/

[Waiting For Everyman]

67. See what Gaddafi has done to Misrata, as of two days ago (video & translation)

Helluva job, NATO.

http://feb17.info/media/video-misrata-april-6-2011/

[tabatha]

68. While I was one of the first to complain

about the slowness of NATO - that is a civilian neighborhood, and without boots on the ground, they cannot target things like bulldozers from the air without collateral damage.

[defendandprotect]

80. War crimes -- and more war crimes by Gaddafi --

Amazing damage which suggests the NFZ meant nothing re stopping Gaddafi !!

Remember reading Gaddafi thugs were blocking the sewers -- just vile --

Only the birds are still singing -- as Spring comes --

[tabatha]

69. ANALYSIS-Libya's Gaddafi hunkers down for a long siege

ALGIERS, April 8 (Reuters) - He has survived a revolt, Western air strikes and the defection of some of his closest aides, and now Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi is hunkering down for a long siege.

In the past few days Gaddafi's administration has emerged from a period of paralysis and started drawing up a blueprint for how to run the country -- at least the parts he still controls -- while isolated by the outside world.

It is not clear how long Gaddafi can last, but the fact he seems to be digging in for a prolonged stay will be disheartening to Western governments under pressure from war-weary publics to deliver a swift conclusion in Libya.

"The conflict is going to be long and drawn out," said Geoff Porter of North Africa Risk Consulting.

"Over the long term, Libya clearly won't be united again under ... (Gaddafi's) leadership, but it's also increasingly unlikely that the rebels will get anywhere close to Tripoli and without Tripoli there is no rebel victory."

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE7370RP20110408?sp=true

[defendandprotect]

85. K/R --

[tabatha]

70. WRAPUP 4-Ouattara overshadowed by Ivory Coast killings

ABIDJAN, April 8 (Reuters) - U.N. workers in Ivory Coast have found the bodies of more than 100 victims of brutal killings, a discovery that threatened to undermine presidential claimant Alassane Ouattara as he seeks to take control of the country.

Ouattara's rival, Laurent Gbagbo, meanwhile was left isolated behind a military cordon in the bunker where he has sought refuge after a concerted assault by Ouattara's troops earlier this week.

Ouattara appears for now to have decided to isolate Gbagbo in his Abidjan residence, rather than press ahead with attempts to drive him out by military force, and concentrate instead on efforts to restore normal life after weeks of fighting.

But Ouattara's ability to unify the West African state may be undermined by reports of atrocities since his forces -- a collection of former rebels from the north -- swept south into Abidjan, the commercial capital, more than a week ago.

http://af.reuters.com/article/ivoryCoastNews/idAFLDE73700G20110408?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

87. Gbagbo is still in his panic room? Call an expert! Where's Jodie Foster when you need her?

:evilgrin:

[tabatha]

71. ICRC vessel bound for Libyan city of Misrata

GENEVA (Reuters) - A Red Cross-chartered humanitarian vessel is expected to arrive in the rebel-held Libyan city of Misrata within 24 hours, the humanitarian agency said on Friday.

International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) spokesman Christian Cardon declined to give details on relief items carried by the ship which left the eastern city of Benghazi.

"The boat just left," he told Reuters in Geneva.

Troops loyal to Muammar Gaddafi have encircled Misrata for weeks and pounded the country's third biggest city with heavy artillery and placed snipers on rooftops.

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE7370AS20110408

[al bupp]

72. Feb17.info: Gaddafi rocket fire on Ajdabiya

3:39pm (GMT +2): Gaddafi’s troops have fired salvoes of rockets which have forced the rebels in Ajdabiya to retreat to the city centre, apparently leaving the rest of the town undefended.

http://feb17.info/

[tabatha]

78. Why do you Libyans want Gaddafi gone? Here are some reasons…

# Salaries in Libya are governed by law number 15 which sets the average salary of Libyans at 200 dollars per month. To make things worst it is customary to have this low wage paid intermittently.
# Law number 4 caters for the confiscation of private and commercial property, practically passing such stolen properties to the members of his family and of its so called revolutionary committee members who are in charge of security.
# The burning down of the land registry building in Tripoli to destroy any reference of legal ownership of property.
# The continuous discharge of untreated sewage in the sea in close proximity to the cities Tripoli and Benghazi
# The sudden unnotified change of Libyan currency practically confiscating all personal assets of Libyans
# Civil infrastructure, healthcare and the education system have failed beyond disbelief in the last 40 years.
# Private Libyan citizens yearly spend on average 5billion dollars in Tunisia, Jordan and Egypt out of their pockets for medical treatment, because they have completely lost trust in the Libyan health care system.
# Gaddafi committed some of the most brutal human right excesses in the late 70′s and early 80′s. Libyan students were hanged in universities, sport auditoriums and public squares simply for not adhering to the green book ideology.
# Gaddafi has squandered unimaginable wealth on his propaganda machine; mainly managed by such figures like Mr. Ali Alkilani and Mr. Abdullah Mansour

more ..............

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/02/why-do-you-libyans-want-gaddafi-gone-here-are-some-reasons/

[defendandprotect]

84. Thank you --

So many messages on these threads which DU'ers should be seening --

including this one!

[al bupp]

81. ICRC Misrata Sniper Update

16:57 (GMT +2) The International Committee for the Red Cross says it is sending a team to Misrata by boat to assess the situation and to investigate reports of snipers targeting children

from: http://www.libyafeb17.com

[pinboy3niner]

86. Former Rep. Weldon Leaves Libya, Spurned By Gaddafi

By Marcus Baram

First Posted: 04/ 8/11 11:54 AM ET Updated: 04/ 8/11 01:14 PM ET


This story has been updated

NEW YORK -- Former Congressman Curt Weldon (R-Penn.), who arrived in Tripoli this week on a "private mission" to ask Muammar Gaddafi to step aside, left Libya today after failing to meet privately with the strongman.

The lawmaker, who has traveled to Libya more than any other Congressman and has established close ties to the Gaddafi family, expressed his disappointment in a statement sent to The Huffington Post by Weldon's daughter, Kristin Weldon Peri.

"I am disappointed that I did not get to sit down face to face with Col. Qadaffi as promised, but I may have been able to get something even more significant -- a path to a resolution of this conflict. Anytime you are asked to play a part in advancing the cause of peace there is a moral obligation to say yes."

Weldon, who says he was invited to Libya by Gaddafi's chief of staff, Dr. Bashir Saleh, said that his message to government officials he met in Tripoli "was in direct support of the state public positions of President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/08/former-rep-weldon-leaves-_n_846638.html

[pinboy3niner]

88. LIBYA: Eman al-Obeidy tells in TV interview of being raped, beaten by Kadafi men

April 8, 2011 | 9:09am



The horrying story of Eman al-Obeidy, a Libyan woman who says she was raped by Moammar Kadafi's militiamen, gripped the world and made the law school graduate the face of the movement against Libyan leader Moammar Kadafi.

Two weeks after Al-Obeidy burst into a Tripoli hotel to try to tell journalists that she was gang raped by Libyan leader Kadafi's militiamen, she's been speaking out about her harrowing ordeal and criticized the Libyan authorities in an interview with CNN aired on the network earlier this week.

...


During this week's interview, Al-Obeidy asked for three things, according to CNN-- that she be permitted to clear her name, that her abusers are brought to justice and that she can go back to the eastern city of Tobruk to be reunited with her family.

More than half a million people have signed an online petition that calls for Al-Obeidy's safe return to her family and thousands have clicked on a page on Facebook to show support for her.

--Alexandra Sandels in Beirut

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/04/libya-eman-obeidy-interview-kadafi-rape-minder-government-militia-men-abuse-journalists-torture.html

[pinboy3niner]

89. Rebels painting roofs of their vehicles bright pink to avoid more friendly fire casualties nt

[David__77]

90. Won't government forces do the same thing?

Of course they have spies among the rebels who will relay information about these things. I can't see how the paint thing will help really.

[pinboy3niner]

91. They'll hear about it both from spies and the media

I picked up this tidbit on the net from The Telegraph--and I wouldn't be surprised if Gaddafi's people found it before I did. I'm sure they're monitoring latest news reports from correspondents with the opposition and the live blogs for intel.

Maybe we'll see, instead of announcements of the uniform of the day, notices of the 'Don't Shoot' color of the day...

[David__77]

96. I'm sure.

It's interesting with all the information that is available. There were people on Twitter who were saying "don't say this, don't say that," but it was useless, because of course someone is always going to say whatever is supposed to be secret. Also, with the media reporting right next to battle areas or in cities, it's easy with Google Earth to leverage that information into militarily useful information.

[defendandprotect]

135. Thought it was supposed to be yellow -- but with all the crap we invent ...

wasn't there something you attach to a car to give off a signal?

And -- keep in mind that the "rebels" had told NATO that they were moving

vehicles out of storage and that they would be on that particualr road --

they should have known. I think!!

[pinboy3niner]

92. UN Sec-Gen to chair mtg in Cairo next week to improve coordination of int'l. response on Libya

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon will chair a meeting of international and regional organizations in Cairo next week to improve coordination of the international response on Libya, the Associated Press reports.

19.11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html

[tabatha]

93. Why not this weekend? Saturday morning, would be preferable.

[pinboy3niner]

94. Maybe Ban Ki-moon's kids have a soccer game Sat. :)

:hi:

[tabatha]

98. Yes, but they are not in imminent danger of having

their family blown up.

[pinboy3niner]

95. Opposition realizing that international action is not intended to win their war for them

Source: Christian Science Monitor

With Libya rebels stalled, frustration with NATO mounts


Libya rebels' outcry over a mistaken NATO airstrike demonstrates frustration with the alliance as the opposition realizes that international action is not intended to win their war for them.


By Dan Murphy, Staff writer / April 8, 2011


Ajdabiya, Libya

When NATO warplanes hit three Libyan rebel tanks west of Ajdabiya yesterday, the airstrikes touched off a panicked exodus from the city. The errant attacks also set off wild rumors that Col. Muammar Qaddafi’s air force once again controlled Libya's skies.

The strikes were a case of mistaken identity, the deputy head of the alliance's Libya operations insisted today. “The situation in the area is still very fluid, with tanks and other vehicles moving in different directions,” British Rear Admiral Russell Harding told reporters, adding that it was the first time NATO had encountered rebel tanks on the move.

But the reaction to the incident demonstrates a growing well of frustration in Libya’s east as rebels begin to realize that international action is not designed to win their war for them. In Benghazi, and among the lightly armed rebel militia, the first seeds of doubt are also emerging that Colonel Qaddafi will be removed from power soon.

...


“When it was the US and France, their fire was accurate, they were supporting us,” says Omar Mussa, who’s been with the disorganized rebel militia since late February, standing at the western gate of Ajdabiya. “Since NATO took over, there have been lots of mistakes like yesterday, and no support for us. Obviously, something is going on.”


http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/0408/With-Libya-rebels-stalled-frustration-with-NATO-mounts

[CJvR]

102. I think it is...

...more likely frustration at their own impotence as a fighting force, not that anyone would ever acknowledge that though.

If they can't even take out the Brega force, isolated as it is what can they do?
Sure NATO could win the battle for them in a few minutes, there wouldn't be much of Brega left after wards though.

[David__77]

105. Individual call for ground invasion...

In the article, it said: "'Our young men are beginning to realize that they can’t win this war without strong outside help to advance – I personally would welcome foreign troops at this point,' says Mohammed Daifullah, a retired civil servant. 'But that’s an uncomfortable realization for them. So they get angry.'"

The man interviewed is presumably only speaking for himself, but I think it's reasonable to expect more such sentiment from opposition Libyans. I cannot possibly see that happening, and I think many supporters of air intervention would oppose ground intervention.

There is an arrogance to some of the opposition spokespersons. The ex-interior minister Younis does not seem to realize that the UN security council never directly empowered NATO to do anything. It's up to the individual member states to implement the resolution. I doubt he's calling for lifting the resolution... There seems to be misunderstanding about the resolution and its clear intent which is not aimed at "regime change."

[tabatha]

108. We do not want them to send troops in

Misrata's rebel force called on foreign powers to supply them with arms.

"(NATO's) air strikes seem to be inefficient and

we do not want them to send troops in

, so the only solution left is to arm us," said Salem, a member of the rebels' media committee.

NATO says protecting Misrata's civilians is a priority.

ICRC spokesman Christian Cardon said the agency's relief shipment was due in Misrata by midday on Saturday. The aid follows a delivery of food and medical supplies by the U.N. World Food Programme on Thursday.

"Meetings continue in Tripoli," he added, referring to talks that started more than a week ago between senior ICRC officials and Libyan government officials to increase the agency's access to civilians caught in the conflict. (Additional reporting by Stephanie Nebehay in Geneva, Jonathan Saul in London and Joseph Nasr in Berlin; Writing by Richard Lough; Editing by Louise Ireland)

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE7370TA20110408?sp=true

(suppositions, suppositions)

[David__77]

111. Absolutely. That is the position of all the official bodies.

I do not anticipate that to change unless the strategic situation took a radical turn. But, given that the arms will apparently not be forthcoming, and that the arms if they were forthcoming may not strategically change the situation, what then? Suppositions are warranted. First the position was "no foreign intervention," then it was "some (aerial) foreign intervention." Facts today may be irrelevant tomorrow, and progressives in the US should be prepared for alternative scenarios.

[pinboy3niner]

97. AFP reporting heavy fighting in Misrata right now nt

[pinboy3niner]

99. Press freedom in eastern Libya sparks media boom

Source: AP

Press freedom in eastern Libya sparks media boom

(AP) – 22 minutes ago


BENGHAZI, Libya (AP) — The rules for Libyan media were absolute: Don't print, broadcast or post anything bad about leader Moammar Gadhafi. Libyan journalists who crossed the line risked prison or death.

"It was as if Gadhafi was a prophet sent by Allah," editor Fatah Khashmi said. "He was free from blame and never made mistakes."

Less than two months after the anti-Gadhafi uprising broke out, journalists in the rebel-held east are happily shaking off the old rules and creating a media boomlet. At least half a dozen new publications have appeared in the de facto rebel capital of Benghazi, and a former state-run radio station now broadcasts the rebel cause.

...


A cartoon in one paper, Libya Freedom, shows an eagle with the pre-Gadhafi flag on it catching rats with the faces of Gadhafi and his sons, then dropping them in a can marked "the dustbin of history."

...


"It was like you had been prevented from drinking water for a year and suddenly you could drink again," Ali said of getting back on the air.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gviG1Fn9VEqbK8Ua4P23AK9Q9YYQ?
docId=50ae1afe48b041d6b66b8a22fc8728da

[tabatha]

100. Ex-Libyan minister foresees more defections

http://youtu.be/LEblfSgC4ic

"Another former aide to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi has sought asylum in Europe. One-time Libyan energy minister Omar Fathi Bin Shatwan has fled to Malta. In this first televised interview since the start of the rebellion, Bin Shatwan said time is running out for Gaddafi's regime and more Libyan ministers would like to defect. Most of the people want to the same as Koussa and some others have done, but they cannot do it because they don't have the chance to do it," Bin Shatwan told euronews."

This has been reported before, but this is a video where one can hear directly from the man himself - that is, it is not "people say" but "he is saying" straight from his mouth to your ears.

[pinboy3niner]

103. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 10 PM FRIDAY, APRIL 8

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[tabatha]

104. UPDATE 4-Rebels repel Gaddafi assault on Misrata's east

Fri Apr 8, 2011 7:50pm GMT (Reuters) - Rebels said they fought off an assault on the east of Misrata by forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi on Friday.

A rebel spokesman said government troops had advanced on the heavily populated Esqeer district in an effort to loosen the rebels' grip on Misrata, where families are crammed together in the few remaining safe districts.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said it expected a humanitarian vessel it had chartered to reach Misrata by midday on Saturday but gave no details of the relief cargo it was carrying.

"The attack from the east has been repelled now and the (pro-Gaddafi) forces have been pushed back," a rebel spokesman, who gave his name as Hassan al-Misrati, told Reuters by phone.

A second rebel said Gaddafi's troops had deployed a tank along Tripoli Street to try to assert control of the strategic highway, which leads into the city centre from the western outskirts, after rebels attacked government sniper positions.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE7370TA20110408?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

106. Ajdabiyah: Western gate effectively becomes the new rebel front

Source: USA Today

Gadhafi forces push toward western gate


By Greg Campbell, USA TODAY
Updated 15m ago


AJDABIYA, Libya — Libyan rebels guarding the western entrance of the contested city of Ajdabiya briefly deserted their post under mortar attack Friday, as Moammar Gadhafi's forces pushed to within a few miles after Thursday's botched NATO airstrike against a column of rebel tanks.

The western gate had effectively become the new rebel front. Early Friday, fighters there said Gadhafi's forces were within 12 miles of the city. On Wednesday, they were at least 40 miles out.

Beyond the gate, only a few rebel trucks ventured forward on scouting missions. One was hit with gunfire 11 miles from the gate and a rebel was wounded.

In previous days, the western gate has been a hectic staging ground for scores of combat vehicles and hundreds of fighters preparing to drive the desert road to the front line.

...


More explosions were heard around Ajdabiya later.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-04-08-libya_N.htm?csp=34news

[meow mix]

107. K&r

go rebels

[pinboy3niner]

109. EU is ready to bring humanitarian aid to Misrata, using mil. assets if needed, according to a diplom

The EU has told the UN it is ready to bring humanitarian aid to Misrata, using military assets if needed, according to a diplomat.

20.57:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html

[pinboy3niner]

110. Any military use would only come if backed by the UN & strictly to support humanitarian aid--AJ

From Al Jazeera's news blog:

Getting ready for boots on the ground? The European Union says it is ready to launch "a humanitarian mission" in Libya's Misurata within several days, but only if it has United Nations backing, says the Associated Press news agency.

EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton has reportedly contacted UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to share her concerns over Misurata, a source told the agency.

The mission might require military backing, but it would not go beyond strictly providing assistance for humanitarian action.

The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, say any military involvement would only come if backed by the UN.

10:27pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-8

[pinboy3niner]

112. Five people were killed and ten wounded in fighting in Misurata today, Reuters reports nt

[pinboy3niner]

113. Gaddafi's situation 'more dire' in Misrata after weeks of laying siege to the town--AP

Journalists taken by Libyan government to besieged town see signs of worsening struggle


By Associated Press, Friday, April 8, 5:05 PM


MISRATA, Libya — Moammar Gadhafi’s government brought foreign journalists to Misrata on Friday to show that its forces hold significant control over the only major city in western Libya still in rebel hands, but the trip suggested that their situation had if anything grown more dire after weeks of laying siege to the enemy’s stronghold.

Reporters were bused to the same intersection, more than a mile (2 kilometers) from downtown, where government officials took them about 10 days ago. Back then, it was to show the effects of a NATO airstrike. This time, it was simply as far as the tour could go before the sounds of gunfire and shelling forced officials to turn around.

At one point, the journalists took cover amid gunfire. A Libyan soldier, Walid Mohammed Walid, received a head wound in the shooting and was taken to a hospital.

Buildings were heavily pockmarked from battle, as they were previously. But while Gadhafi’s forces at the intersection were seen on open ground on the earlier visit, this time the few soldiers there were hiding out in buildings or on rooftops.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/journalists-taken-by-libyan-government-to-besieged-town-see-signs-of-worsening-struggle/2011/04/08/AFiNbG1C_story.html

[defendandprotect]

136. Gaddafi wanted to show off what he had done in Misurata??

[pinboy3niner]

114. P.J.Crowley: Use political, economic and political pressure to force out Col. Gadhafi

(I reformatted this slightly, strictly for readability.)

P.J.Crowley: Use political, economic and political pressure to force out Col. Gadhafi


Posted by:
Jay Kernis - Senior Producer

April 8th, 2011
08:58 AM ET



ONLY ON THE BLOG: Answering today’s six OFF-SET questions is P.J. Crowley, the former United States Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs. Crowley served in the U.S. Air Force for 26 years, was senior director of public affairs for the United States National Security Council and a Special Assistant to the President.


CNN: For a few weeks now, Libyan rebels have been fighting with forces loyal to Moammar Gadhafi. It’s hard to tell who is winning. In your view, does the opposition have the time, the personnel, the training, and the weaponry to eventually control Libya’s major towns and cities?

CROWLEY: This is a limited military operation, intended to protect civilians and preserve options for a political solution. Protecting civilians also means preventing Gadhafi from eliminating the opposition through military means.

Air power can mitigate the level of violence, and there is no question that Gadhafi's capabilities have been reduced. But it cannot prevent violence entirely, particularly when the fighting occurs in and around major cities. In the back and forth between the Libyan military and the armed opposition, cities are getting shelled and tragically civilians are being killed.

But as we have seen over the past few weeks, neither side has made strategic gains. The intervention gives some time for the opposition to improve its capabilities. It also creates time and space for economic sanctions to really bite, creating pressure on Gadhafi, his sons and inner circle of supporters.


CNN: Beginning March 19, the United States participated in airstrikes to protect civilians from Libya’s military. Now that responsibility is NATO’s. Can you tell what role the U.S. is officially playing today in Libya?

CROWLEY: The Libya mission coincides with the domestic political battle over the budget and the possible government shutdown. As a result, the White House has tried to publicly minimize the U.S. role, which has caused some confusion. But since a U.S. admiral serves as SACEUR, the senior NATO commander in the region, we continue to play a leadership role in this mission.

We are actively contributing assets in support of the mission. We do not currently have aircraft enforcing the no-fly zone, but have special assets standing by if needed. The problem that we have now is that, by stressing what we are not doing in and around Libya, the opposition in Libya is blaming us for what they perceive as inadequate support. The opposition in Libya wants the U.S. and NATO to become its Air Force. We're not going to do that, not should we do that.


CNN: Do you think the U.S. mission should be expanded to include the removal of Col. Gadhafi?

CROWLEY: U.S. policy is that Gadhafi should step down. The President said it. We have to use multiple tools to achieve this objective, not just one. I worry about an expansion of the military mission because it would inevitably involve boots on the ground. At that point we would "own" Libya and the costs associated with its transformation.

We spent a trillion dollars on regime change in Iraq. We literally cannot afford to do that in Libya through military means alone. I believe the combination of political, economic and political pressure can eventually force Gadhafi to step aside. It will take some time, but can be done at a cost , including public opinion in the Arab world, that is sustainable.


CNN: There are reports that F.B.I. agents have now interviewed some 800 Libyan-Americans, trying to determine if there is any terrorist or criminal threat to the United States as a result of the intervention in Libya. Do you think Gadhafi is capable of carrying out a terrorist act here?

CROWLEY: Gadhafi has his hands full right now just staying alive and holding on to his day job. If we let him off the hook, he could become dangerous. We only have to remember Pan Am 103 to understand what he is capable of. But this is a good reminder of why we have to be prepared to see this through until he is gone.

...


http://inthearena.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/08/p-j-crowley-use-political-economic-and-political-
pressure-to-force-out-col-gadhafi/

[defendandprotect]

137. Really, really like Crowley -- he makes a lot of sense -- !!

CROWLEY: The Libya mission coincides with the domestic political battle over the budget and the possible government shutdown. As a result, the White House has tried to publicly minimize the U.S. role, which has caused some confusion. But since a U.S. admiral serves as SACEUR, the senior NATO commander in the region, we continue to play a leadership role in this mission.

We are actively contributing assets in support of the mission. We do not currently have aircraft enforcing the no-fly zone, but have special assets standing by if needed. The problem that we have now is that, by stressing what we are not doing in and around Libya, the opposition in Libya is blaming us for what they perceive as inadequate support. The opposition in Libya wants the U.S. and NATO to become its Air Force. We're not going to do that, not should we do that.

[tabatha]

115. Latest from libyafeb17.com

23:42 Wefaq Media Revolutionaries in Misratah blocked Tripoli Street near the vegetable market in an attempt to prevent reinforcements reaching Gaddafi forces. A tank attempted to beach the blockade but was attacked and disabled by the freedom fighters

Almanara Media23:32 Almanara Media NATO fighter jets have just destroyed a Gaddafi military convoy headed from Jalou to Ajdabiya

23:27 DIRECT from MIsratah Misratah News Group on Facebook are reporting that NATO fighter jets are flying heavily over the city right now

23:22 Al Jazeera EnglishNATO airstrike hits Gaddafi weapons depot near Zintan

http://www.libyafeb17.com/

(As a pacifist, I am finding it strange to be following war maneuvers so closely, but it is Gaddafi's violence that has me glued to following it, hoping for his defeat.)

[pinboy3niner]

117. CNN is about to air a more pessimistic report from Ben Wedeman nt

[David__77]

120. Is there a good synopsis of the military situation?

I wonder what percentage of the non-combatant population has fled the city? I think I should search Arabic-language sources for more information.

If Misurata were to fall as did Zawiyah, that would somewhat alter the narrative, shifting the whole focus to the "front line," such that it is. I have no idea what the likelihood of Misurata falling is, or what is the likelihood of Misurata rebels attempting to offensively break out of the encirclement. The latter may be militarily wise if it boils down to a war of attrition.

[pinboy3niner]

124. Nothing new--they overteased it

Blitzer said Wedeman would report situation "worse than a stalemate for the rebels." But it turned out to be a review of what we already know from past days and weeks.

The report on the journalists' trip to Misrata (above) indicates Gaddafi's forces there are slightly worse off, in that they're not gaining and they're coming under attack from opposition fighters in the city. The city remains divided, with each side holding part. And the opposition continues to hold the port, where some humanitarian aid is getting through.

[pinboy3niner]

116. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 12:20 AM SATURDAY, APRIL 9

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[pinboy3niner]

118. Nato secretary general in climbdown after alliance refuses to apologise for rebel attack

Source: The Telegraph

Nato secretary general in climbdown after alliance refuses to apologise for rebel attack

Nato's secretary general was forced into an embarrassing climbdown on Friday after alliance commanders refused to apologise for an attack on a tank column that killed up to 13 Libyan rebels.


By Damien McElroy, and James Kirkup
9:00PM BST 08 Apr 2011



The deputy commander of Nato's Libya operations said that alliance forces wrongly attacked the armoured column because they believed that the only tanks in use in Libya were part of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's forces.

...


"I am not apologising for this," said the admiral, a Royal Navy officer. "The situation on the ground was extremely fluid and remains extremely fluid. Until this time we had not seen the TNC operating tanks."

But William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, said that alliance commanders should say sorry for the incident.

"I think we should say that it is deeply regrettable and I think when something like this happens it doesn't cost anything to apologise," he said.

"So I think we should apologise where there is error. If people are killed who are not attacking civilians then it is a mistake."

Anders Fogh Rassmussen, Nato's secretary general, later said he "strongly regretted" the incident.

"This is a very unfortunate incident. I strongly regret the loss of life," he said. "We have seen in the past that tanks have been used by the Gaddafi regime to attack civilians."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8438526/Nato-secretary-general-in-climbdown-after-alliance-refuses-to-apologise-for-rebel-attack.html

[David__77]

119. That's an artful take.

I don't see how that would be embarrassing. That was the "non-apology" statement. "I'm regret that you got killed" is always different than "I'm sorry I killed you." Britain called for, and did not get, an apology to be issued.

[tabatha]

122. Anders Fogh Rassmussen

sounds like an arrogant jerk. Unfortunately, since he is the mouthpiece for NATO it reflects badly on them - probably unfairly.

[pinboy3niner]

127. It was the deputy NATO commander who refused to apologize

At least one report on that news conference said reporters there were taken aback by his response.

Rasmussen is the one who expressed 'strong regrets.' Not quite an apology, but at least it offered some sensitivity to the human losses suffered by the opposition fighters and medics.

The 'climbdown' remark was a poor description of what happened, as it was only a climbdown by NATO (not Rasmussen) in Rasmussen offering a softer response that seemed intended to repair the damage from the relatively harsh first response by the NATO military official (a Royal Navy admiral).

[tabatha]

129. Thanks - then I take that back.

The deputy is then arrogant. I swallowed hard when I read that - refuse to apologize? even if it is not one's fault, one does not have to use those words.

[defendandprotect]

138. The rebels had notified NATO they were moving these vehicles out -- and the road they'd be on -- !!

This isn't believable --

Think the rebels are right in questioning NATO - think we have some co-option

of the mission by the rightwing.

[David__77]

121. Photos of pre-war Misurata.

It appeared to be a relatively developed, modern city.

[tabatha]

123. Hmmm

not so sure about pics #1 and #3, especially #3.

Here are some neat photos:
http://looklex.com/libya/misurata.htm

[David__77]

125. Those were on the site I got these from too.

I you go on Google Earth, there are many beautiful photos of different cities, villages, and isolated areas in Libya. Last night, I was looking at photos of Sirte. It is a very beautiful city with a lovely seafront, despite having some architectural monstrosities. It actually looks relatively well-planned. Those oil towns look pretty depressing, which is kind of like all oil towns, including the ones in the US.

[tabatha]

126. Yep, there are beautiful places and dumps in the same place all over the world.

All money dependent, of course. I grew up where the contrast was so stark it was painful. But, in all reality, I think people would prefer above all else not to live in fear.

[pinboy3niner]

128. Moussa Koussa 'could leave Britain'

Source: The Telegraph

Libya: Moussa Koussa 'could leave Britain'


Moussa Koussa, the Libyan defector, could be allowed to leave the country, William Hague has said.


By Auslan Cramb, James Kirkup and Duncan Gardham9:00PM BST 08 Apr 2011


The foreign secretary said Mr Koussa, who faces inquiries from the International Criminal Court and families of the victims of Libyan terrorists, would not be forced to return to Libya, adding: "There are quite a range of places that he could go to live."

Mr Hague's comments, in an interview with Sky News, came as relatives of the Lockerbie bombing victims accepted he may never face trial in Britain.

Susan Cohen, who lost her only daughter on Pan Am Flight 103 said the former intelligence chief "should probably be hanged for what he has done" but she had no expectation of him ending up in a Scottish court.

She added that American relatives were more interested in the British authorities using him to "get to" Col Muammar Gaddafi than in seeing Mr Koussa on trial.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8438873/Libya-Moussa-
Koussa-could-leave-Britain.html

[tabatha]

130. Brega News

01:54 Almanara Media It has been confirmed by trusted sources that the revolutionaries have arrested Brigadier General Alreefi and 150 of his mercenaries in Brega

http://www.libyafeb17.com/

[pinboy3niner]

131. Can Libya's Rebels Go Pro?

Source: Foreign Policy

REVOLUTIONOLOGY

Can Libya's Rebels Go Pro?


A visit to the embattled city of Ajdabiya finds the anti-Qaddafi resistance slightly less ragtag than before, but still not quite professional.


BY RYAN CALDER |APRIL 8, 2011


Ryan Calder, a Ph.D. candidate in sociology at the University of California, Berkeley, is traveling in rebel-held eastern Libya this month, interviewing the revolution's participants and witnesses. You can read earlier installments in this series here .


...


The shift in who's fighting the war is probably not a sign that the old amateur rebels have been enlisted under a new command structure, but rather that they've mostly gone home to Benghazi, Derna, Al-Bayda, and other eastern cities. These civilian rebels achieved the dramatic victories of the revolution's early days in February, storming arsenals and state-security institutions in the face of machine-gun fire across eastern Libya with little more than willpower and their Kia sedans. But now they are returning to the business of being civilians. The Transitional National Council, and the more seasoned military hands on the opposition side, have encouraged this. Military-manned checkpoints now make it difficult for civilian rebels to make it up to the front.

...


But just because the opposition is now better organized and somewhat more professional, that doesn't mean it's going to stop losing ground in the east. It is simply being outgunned by a superior fighting force. Qaddafi's militias have better, newer weapons and superior training. And opposition forces remain less organized than a modern conventional army. Rules about where journalists can and can't go, for example, are unclear. Six miles outside Ajdabiya, the car I was riding in -- carrying five foreign journalists -- stopped next to two Soviet-era Grad rocket launchers. At first, we were sternly told that media weren't allowed to stop and take pictures. But after chatting with the troops for a while, they offered us grape juice. And as their trucks fired up their engines and left for the front five minutes later, they gladly posed for pictures in their rocket launchers....



The staff at a rebel training camp I visited this morning, which has been running since late February, told me they had expanded their activities recently. This may be both because of internal pressure to better organize the rebels and because of external questions (from Western leaders) about who exactly the rebels are. One staff member explained that people who had past military training -- i.e. before the revolution -- were being given additional training before being sent to the front. Rebels with no past military experience were also being trained, and will be used for civilian functions: manning highway inspection posts, patrolling cities, and so forth. In each case, the training courses are two weeks long. It's not Quantico, but it's a start.

...


From the perspective of the Benghazi street, Misrata and Al-Zawiyah are now the opposition's heroic outposts. A Turkish hospital ship recently stopped in Benghazi on its way from Misrata, bearing many severely wounded people, including quite a few amputees. A crowd gathered outside the ship (even though access to the quay was restricted), chanting that Qaddafi would soon fall and that Misrata would be free. Today, I drove through a traffic roundabout in Benghazi that had been renamed "Circle of the
Misrata Marytrs." Graffiti at the next traffic light read, "Hail the martyrs of Zawiyah."

...


http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/08/can_libyas_rebels_go_pro

[pinboy3niner]

132. Translated: A Comprehensive report of all the events in the city of Misratah April 8th:

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/04/translated-a-comprehensive-report-of-all-the-events-in-the-city-of-misratah-april-8th/

[joshcryer]

134. Day 51 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x848216