So why are non-union workers whining about public union benefits and

[white_wolf]

not getting angry and their own bosses for who are denying them the right to form unions? This makes no sense to me, instead of trying to bring other people down, why not bring yourself up? Besides if the public employees get better benefits than that just means they earned them and worked harder and that private employees are lazy, right? I mean that is their world view that everyone who has anything has earned it and that everyone who doesn't is a lazy bum.

[lob1]

1. Yes, it's strange that they resent someone who makes a

buck more that themselves, but the guy who makes a billion dollars more that them is just peachy.

[Thurifer]

4. apples and oranges

You are comparing apples and oranges. They may be mad as hell that they can't unionize but that doesn't mean that they are happy footing the bill through taxes for the benefits of others. It is a false dichotomy, both can be true.

[msongs]

5. "footing the bill through taxes"....gee here I thought it was called paying for public services

rendered over a life time of labor and devotion. how liberal of me nt

[Thurifer]

8. just the same...

Yes, and paying to have my car worked on is paying for a service too. That doesn't mean I'm happy about it.

[kestrel91316]

14. If you don't like paying your car mechanic for services rendered,

FIX YOUR OWN DAMNED CAR.

[Thurifer]

18. That's the point..

Government is a monopoly. Therefore not only is there no limit as to what it can charge for it's services,it also prevents people from going anywhere else to get them. I'm not saying there is any other way to do things, but it is what it is.

[LooseWilly]

21. Are you saying you'd forego property and gas taxes... and use the money to build your own roads...

and to homeschool while you are building your own roads?...

No limit to what it can charge for it's services?... do you not understand the implications of the bond measures, and parcel taxes, and so on, that you vote for regularly?

And... when you complain about government being a monopoly... are you trying to say that we should have more competition in our government?... Like, the government of New Jersey should be able to compete with the government of New York... like Coke v. Pepsi... in a marketplace of... citizens?

It ever cross your mind that government regulations are what keep states from applying tariffs to each others goods (an explicit Federal function according to the Constitution)... and that, without that over-arching "monopoly" the 'competing' governments might... declare war on each other to solve differences?

Is this a problem for you? I mean... I'd love to shoot me some assholes from Arkansas... but, is this really the "solution" that you're arguing for?

Or are you just bitching mindlessly about something that serves you well in hopes of "gaming the ref"?

[Bozita]

2. My neighbor has a cow and I don't. I want his cow to die.

Old Russian joke given new life by the "free trade" GOPers.

[applegrove]

3. I was talking to a relative last month who said a lawyer friend of hers was dismayed

that so many of the young lawyers today wanted cushy government jobs. Well this man has a law firm in Ottawa which has a federal department of justice. So naturally people who want to be in that type of law gravitate to Ottawa law schools or to Ottawa after law school. We need government lawyers don't we? I mean you have to have 70 billable hours a week if you work for a regular law firm as an associate. What does this man expect. Some people don't want to be slaves. To me that is neoconspeak and shows that the virus/resentment of the mind has spread all the way to Canada from tea baggers. IMHO

[Thurifer]

7. Are you saying?

Are you saying that people who choose government work are lazier than those who work for the private sector? i.e. they work for the gov because they don't want to put in the work required for 70 billable hrs a week? Maybe I misunderstood you but I'm tired of the teabaggers saying Govt. employees are lazy and that's what you seem to be implying.

[applegrove]

12. I'm not saying government lawyers are lazy. I'm saying there is nothing wrong

with people wanting reasonable hours and good pay. I'm sure government lawyers work at least 40 hours a week. The man was the one who was resentful of the 'cushy' government jobs for lawyers that he had to compete with. I worry that he has had his mind warped by teabaggers. Perhaps I was not clear. I was saying the jobs private law firms offer were slavery for young lawyers.

[kestrel91316]

15. YOU are the one calling government employees lazy. I don't know about in

Canada, but down here Lincoln freed the slaves. Making people give up all semblance of a personal life so they can work 70 billable hours a week is just disgusting.

[dkf]

6. Cuz non union workers have to pay taxes to provide benefits they wont get.

It's one thing to provide for others things that you yourself get. It's another to pay for someone else's security when you have none yourself.

[AdHocSolver]

9. So, those nonunion workers should just unionize, and ask there employer for the same benefits. nt

[Thurifer]

11. the difference is

the difference is that there is a real (maybe small, maybe big, but still real) possibility that those benefits would bankrupt their employer and put them all out of a job. On the other hand there is no theoretical upper limit to a public employees compensation as his or her employer can never go out of business.

[dkf]

13. I've come to the conclusion that most companies can't survive generational changes.

The legacy costs if there are decent benefits will bury them.

[Thurifer]

19. that is capitalism's greatest weakness

that is capitalism's greatest weakness, it requires exponential growth, even if the economy grows at 1% a year eventually the growth curve will go vertical.

[white_wolf]

26. So we both agree Capitalism is unsutainable and needs to be replaced?

Great, let's get started.

[dkf]

30. Huh?

Actually it's looking like even govt is unsustainable.

[RobinA]

36. Bull

They have trouble because they do business unwisely.

[white_wolf]

25. Bullshit!

No major corporation will go bankrupt from unionizing their workers. They may have to pay their CEO's a little less is all.

[badtoworse]

29. What about small business? What about competition?

Businesses operate in a competitive environment and have to keep costs low in order to survive. Governments do not and that makes a huge difference. Government officials do have to face the voters and they are starting to see serious pushback on the matter of taxes. Many states are looking at huge budget deficits and have reached a practical limit in terms of the taxes they impose without seriously pissing off the voters. The net result is going to be layoffs or reductions in benefits.

Your view that private sector employees should all just unionize and look to their employeres to pay them more in incredibly naive.

[white_wolf]

32. First of all, state and even fedearl budget issues

can be solved to a large extent by raising taxes on the rich and making corporations pay their fair share. Secondly, the majority of people are employed by large muti-national corporations and they certainly can afford to let their workers unionize so don't tell me they can't afford it, its not true. I'm so sick of people taking the side of the rich against the workers.

[badtoworse]

33. Taking sides has nothing to do with it

You have to look at it in terms of what is politically achievable. Dream on if you want to, but what you are suggesting is not.

[white_wolf]

34. Raising taxes shouldn't be something that is politcally impossible.

We've done it before, granted things were never this bad before.

[Brickbat]

31. If the benefits they wanted would bankrupt the employer, then the employer can, in good faith, make

that clear during negotiations, and both sides can agree on a contract that works for everybody. That's why it's called bargaining; both sides agree.

[kestrel91316]

16. Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society. IMHO people who

whine because they don't personally benefit from every government program and entity in existence need to DEAL WITH IT. And grow up.

[RobinA]

35. Consumers Pay

all the time for stuff they don't get when they buy goods and services. I'm a modestly paid union government worker. I drive a compact and visit the beach for a week off season because that's all I can afford. I bought gas this morning and I paid for some CEO (among others) to be driven in a fancy car, own multiple houses and not have to spend a second worrying about retirement. Hell, he doesn't even have to worry about doing a good job when he goes to work, because he has a golden parachute. Why single out taxes? I pay taxes. I don't work-out in the Capitol gym or get flown around in jets. I don't get a bunch of vacations or drive a government car. It's all the same to me, I pay every day for people to have things I never will. Why am I begrudged a retirement with four walls, heat and food, or a car that is good in the snow so I can get to my job that I have to be at snow, ice or hellfire?

[Overseas]

10. They have been enouraged to resent them

through very sophisticated propaganda campaigns, including very crude commentators who fill right wing talk radio and TV 24/7.

[hfojvt]

17. maybe because of the serenity prayer

and no, that is not their world view.

But, then, you already knew that.

[notesdev]

20. It's pretty simple

Public unions have demonstrated that they don't give a flying fuck about anyone else.

They were completely, totally silent on private sector unions - the moral and formerly numeric base of unionization - being demolished by relentless "free trading", uncontrolled immigration (labor dumping, both legal and illegal versions), offshoring of entire industries, and so on.

Now that they have a personal stake in the matter, all of a sudden it should be a big deal to the rest of us? Where the fuck were you people, 5, 10, 15 years ago? How many pro-NAFTA candidates have public unions supported? How many pro- H-1B candidates have public unions supported? How many pro-immigration candidates have public unions supported, even today in the face of 10% official (and 35% actual) unemployment? Too damned many!

If you're wondering why public unions have no friends today wake the hell up. They have no friends because they tossed every last one of them under the bus in the pursuit of their own narrow, private interests.

Welcome to the Great Depression II party, pals. Glad you could join us.

[LooseWilly]

22. You've pretty well simplified it all right...

I admit I don't personally know how much or how little the public unions came to the aid of the private unions when they were embattled... and if they didn't (please post some sort of link to give a sense of the scale of your accusation)... well then that is a shame upon them.

I won't go further on that thought unless I see some substantiation.

I am a little disturbed by your enthusiasm to blame immigration and immigrants for the difficulties faced by private unions. If the unions failed to anticipate the likelihood of the bosses using foreign labor... immigrants or by offshoring.. that's a blind-siding that the unions really need to take some responsibility for (why do you think Marx proposed an international brotherhood of the proletariat?... just because he was a German exile who hoped to have Italian food deliverable in his ghetto in London?)

You ask: "Now that they have a personal stake in the matter, all of a sudden it should be a big deal to the rest of us? Where the fuck were you people, 5, 10, 15 years ago? How many pro-NAFTA candidates have public unions supported? How many pro- H-1B candidates have public unions supported? How many pro-immigration candidates have public unions supported, even today in the face of 10% official (and 35% actual) unemployment? Too damned many!"

I was hoping you'd provide some answers to go with your questions. Though, the mention of H-1B candidates sounds like your concern is with software engineers... and they have consistently been anti-union of any sort... until their jobs started being taken—at which point they seem to want to have unions fight their battle for them, without them having to be "dirtied" by joining the unions or helping the unions out with any other issues... if anything, the software assholes epitomize all of your complaints far more cogently than public unions.

And... again... what's with the anti-immigration stance? Do you really think that keeping out the immigrants is going to give workers leverage? At a time when the factory or office can just be outsourced/offshored to go to those who might have immigrated, but now don't even have to go through the hassle?—Has it ever occurred to you that unionizing the immigrants the second they see the door might be a better answer?... Or—maybe the unions could go so far as to use the immigrants to help build contacts in whatever country the immigrants are coming from... and make sure that they're unionized before they even immigrate... or even recruit them to strike in other countries in tandem with domestic strikes!!

A General strike scares the piss out of industrialists... an International General Strike would even make the multinational corporations require a change of drawers.

But... instead you think and post small... hoping for opposition to immigration-friendly politicians.

:dunce:

[NuttyFluffers]

23. because misery loves company, and it's easier to redress imagined wrongs than large ones

welcome to the pettiness known as mankind. and don't think for a minute our cruel overlords do not know, or exploit, this pathetic behavior in the heart of our weaker brethren.

[badtoworse]

24. Very simple

Their taxes keep going up to pay for the unionized public employees and non-public employee wages and benefits are remaining stagnant or declining. Many families are struggling to make ends meet and simply can't afford to pay more for public services. That is a reality that public employees do not like to face. In NJ, Christie is enjoying a lot of support - that is the reason why.

[RobinA]

37. "Taxes Keep Going Up"

I keep reading about the tax rate in the US being lower than it's ever been since the mid-1900s. So please cite some examples of overall tax rates going up. The only taxes rates I can think of that are going up around me are property tax rates, which are going up because they are the lowest part of the tax totem pole and all the shortages get pushed down to the local level.

[badtoworse]

38. I'm talking about taxes at the state and local level

In NJ, property taxes are a big issue.

[Kingofalldems]

27. Kinda like the Stockholm Syndrome

[guitar man]

28. 30 years

30 years of the constant barrage of right wing propaganda has brought us here. The uber class has a vested interest in setting us against each other and it has paid off for them...