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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 10:22 AM
Original message
Great Find; "The Diseased Right-Wing Mind"
An explanation of the ignorance of wingnuts... it's a bit of a read, but I couldn't have said it better myself;


It has recently been proven to me, beyond any doubt, that there is a fundamental defect in the minds of nearly all those who claim to be 'conservative'. Thanks to an http://www.hypercrites.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23372-soros-goes-to-war-against-fox/page__st__40">exchange with Hard Core, a fellow I truly believed, at one point, could utilize reason, I'm now certain that otherwise intelligent people have a severe mental deficiency that prevents them from employing critical thought or reason to a given issue... especially if that issue is related to their programming.

I say 'programming' because there is no longer any doubt. I'm certain that most have understood this for years, but I've tried to give the benefit of the doubt where I could. How else but through brainwashing can people be convinced of so many things that are simply not true upon inspection?

Well, I believe it's worse than mere brainwashing. You see... not everyone is susceptible to brainwashing. I know, because there's not a damn thing I believe that I can't prove. I know because not everyone is a Scientologist already, and they have the best brainwashing program ever. I know because the vast majority of scientists base their opinions on demonstrable facts and logic.

So how is it that so many, like Hard Core, can be so effectively convinced that bullshit is true and vice-versa?

Because something is missing. There is a fundamental defect in the minds of those who are susceptible to what should otherwise be easily dismissed propaganda. Studies have already shown us that 'conservatives' are http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/8228192/Political-views-hard-wired-into-your-brain.html">more wired to be fearful and set up barriers, as well as to not tolerate ambiguity http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-sci-politics10sep10,0,2687256.story">or easily process and react to new and different information.

So we know that their brains are, in a sense, not functioning in ways that liberals might take for granted.

But how, really, how the hell can they practice such deliberate ignorance with regard to uncomfortable facts?

Well, those two studies shed a little light on the issue.

Take Hard Core as a case study; He seems otherwise moderately bright. He can employ reason, on occasion. He can articulate fair points often enough. Presumably he can also tie his own shoes and remember to breathe. He is not the typical know-nothing right-wing idiot. And yet, as our exchange clearly demonstrated, he is perfectly comfortable with the notion that he is being lied to by right-wing sources while doing his level and hypocritical best to lambaste 'left-wing' sources for even minor errors. Or perhaps, he's not at all comfortable with the idea. Perhaps he is simply not capable of even LOOKING at the facts.

Why? Seriously... WTF? How the hell can someone 'not see' what's right the hell there in front of them?

That brings us back to the studies. Herein lies the key.

So... in a RW brain, the amygdala is larger and the anterior cingulate cortex is smaller or less utilized. So what, right?

Well, once you understand that the job of the amygdala is basically to shield the psyche from trauma, to 'sweep bad things under the rug', and you understand that the anterior cingulate cortex is supposed to help things look 'less scary' than they might appear, everything starts to come together.

As we can see, the 'conservative' brain is designed to be afraid. It's an evolutionary trait that was, at one time, the very key to survival. To be suspicious of everything was important when we were an integral part of the food chain. Having an under-developed ACC was great for thinking everything was out to get you. Being afraid of everything forced the amygdala to work overtime trying to suppress that fear, which made it really potent at its job. But there was a side-effect...

Now that the amygdala is the go-to organ, and, this is important; great at suppressing more than just fear but at suppressing the realization of information as well*, it becomes quite literally a tool of ignorance. I used to believe that the ignorance displayed by wingnuts like JoJo was somehow a choice, but as it turns out, it's not nearly that simple.

As with earlier humans, the need to associate with 'similar' groups of people is strong in conservatives. We can see very clear elements of low-functioning ACC in racists, homophobes, religious zealots... all those given over to 'right wing' tendencies. They tend only to associate with people they 'feel safe' around, and at the same time they reinforce each-others' perceptions of 'threats' from 'others'. This was crucially important a few thousand to a million or so years ago, but in civilized society it is not only no longer necessary, it continues to create strife where there needn't be any.

So here's the problem; Because of the lack of functionality of the ACC, 'conservatives' not only easily fear every 'strange' person, but every 'alien' idea (IOW; ideas that are not held and believed 'safe' by their fellows). Why is this a problem? Well, as the NYU and UCLA studies showed, there is a tendency to be intolerant of 'change' or 'difference'... a desire to essentially be on 'auto-pilot' that is hard-wired into the conservative brain. This leads to a chain of conclusions;
That once a conservative associates himself with the word 'conservative', he will very likely maintain that association.
Now that the association is made, all other associations with what is 'conservative' will be familiar and therefore 'safe'.

This is the mechanism by which 'conservatives' have been hijacked into self-destructive causes. But it just keeps getting worse...

Now that they have self-identified as conservatives and receive their information from self-described 'conservative' sources, and because of the low-functioning ACC, their natural fear of 'difference' is very easily used against them. Their sources, intent on maintaining an army to oppose any efforts to reign in corporate avarice, convince their 'conservative' base, quite easily thanks to the low-functioning ACC, that they should be afraid of the consequences of the 'other sides' ideas.

So they are... and terribly so.

So why then, when it can be so easily demonstrated that so many of the 'other sides' ideas are not only harmless, but perfectly helpful, do 'conservatives' rail so vigorously against them?

That big, dang, amygdala.

Fear has helped bolster up the power of the conservative amygdala, more likely by nurture than nature (as I'll get to), to such a point that it can quash any fear-related emotion, including embarrassment, shame, and even remorse. Sure, I know what you're thinking; 'Why can't they quash the fear of 'others' and 'different ideas' in the first place?'. The answer is 'established pathways'. Neurological pathways are nifty things; they are self-reinforcing by design. Those with more experiential incursion reinforce more easily, obviously. Fear facilitates greater potentiation and therefore reinforcement. From this we can conclude that those who are born with or develop with a less active ACC will tend to establish pathways that lend the mind to suspicion and trepidation. In turn, and in order to function in society, the amygdala must compensate and adapt greater functionality. It is my personal deduction that this is the order of development. I'll bet heavily on it.

Essentially, the 'default setting' of the conservative mind is to find 'safety'. Where is this found again? In groups that are like-minded and similar... even 'homogenous'. How do they go about determining those 'safe' groups? The process is relatively simple; if the group has people that tend to look like them, think like them, act like them, and are afraid of the same things as them, then they're 'safe'. Again; great several thousand years ago. Now; notsomuch.

Does anyone think it's any accident that most conservative groups are significantly more homogenous than liberal groups?

"Safe"

Now, back to Hard Core;

Why? Why when confronted with hard evidence of Right-Wing disinformation he utterly, totally, and absolutely ignored it?

Because he can.

Not because it's not true or factual. Not because the other side is 'just as bad'. No, he can ignore it and in turn ignore any shame for doing so because of his amygdala's regimen of steroids and whale testosterone. (Not literally, of course.)

Hard Core can avoid any confrontation over facts and not feel in the least bit like a coward.

Now, why is this a problem?

Because, the use of reason, which is one of the cornerstones of civilization itself, absolutely requires a personal sense of responsibility for it. No one who feels intellectual shame or cowardice can ignore reason without feeling like a shithead.

So here is the problem;

Right now, even though we can prove that corporations are deliberately feeding so many people utter bullshit through their mouthpieces at Fox, EIB, and voluminous think-tanks and 'news' outlets...
Even though we can prove that the majority of ideas from the 'left' (which, BTW, include Libertarian, Green, and others who the 'right' are told are 'scary scary liberals') aren't terribly dangerous...
Even though we can point to all the laws passed by corporate-friendly legislators http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement">NAFTA, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_Act_of_1996">Telecom Act, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Prescription_Drug,_Improvement,_and_Modernization_Act">Medicare bills, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act">Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, and so many more...

... it doesn't matter.

Because they have been brainwashed, through their low-functioning ACC's, and their high-functioning amygdalas, to both fear opposing ideas and ignore the shame of their own ignorance. In fact, they can believe quite handily that no such shame exists.

This is the enemy of reason itself; to feel no shame about deliberate intellectual ignorance.

Hard Core, a man I believed brave enough to face even unpleasant facts, has disappointed me indeed. But in doing so, he has also proven that this is not as much an issue of 'choice' as we 'meta-thinkers' might imagine.

It is soundly Hard-Wired, and the forces of avarice are using it against all of us.

Perhaps I should not be surprised that 'Hard-Core' is 'Hard-Wired' for fear and ignorance after all. I'd still like to be proven wrong on this one. But I know by now; the anatomy of his brain will not allow him to go through the list of Right-Wing lies and try to deal with them.

He simply cannot do it. It would bring him too close to an uncomfortable reality.



*Essentially by turning off reception to embarrassment over ignoring the information.

http://www.hypercrites.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23526-the-diseased-right-wing-mind/
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warrior1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. kr
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. LOL... Glad someone actually read through it.

It's amazing to me. We have these people whose selfish design, being no longer necessary, still have so much pull in society.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. In some ways this might provide hope
If we understand that there is an underlying organic problem, there might be a treatment.

A drug that suppresses the overactive amygdala? A drug that stimulates the ACC?

Then put it in the water supply.

Voila!
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. A cure for conservatism... That's an idea worth merit.
It would only have to be temporary. Once they started waking up to the use of facts and reason, it would be very difficult to go back.

Hmmm... you may have something there.
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orwell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Thanks...K&R...n/t
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whistler162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yup just like ethnicity determines intellect
another An Coulter wanna be!
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. What the hell are you talking about?

1) Ethnicity does not 'determine intellect'.

2) The author cites studies that show a correlation between 'conservatism' and brain function.


Please, read and understand what you're responding to before responding. I know the piece is pretty long, but do try anyhow.

Thanks.
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JitterbugPerfume Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. that was worth reading!
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thanks for the interesting OP
I live in the South with not just "conservatives" but conservatives who are actually regressive. Some of them I'm related to.

My point that I've tried to make for years, (thought admittedly not lately on DU) is that if you want these big amygdala people (to use the info in your OP) to vote for liberal and progressive policies, you are going to have to comfort their fears first.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Right! And quelling those fears requires their attention...
which means the amygdala easing off, which would require quelling those fears.

One big, ugly, catch-22. They're quite literally 'trapped' in their world by their fears. Many of us have noticed this for some time, it's nice to see it laid out this way.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. Oh, but I do take exception to the author's use of 'Disease' in this case.
'Dysfunction' would have been more correct.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Point taken
:thumbsup:

You can't help your brain structure.
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Fuddnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. Very good read. I'd recommend "The Authoritarians" along with it.
You can download it for free. John Dean cited the research in it heavily in "Conservatives without Conscience".

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Cool!
Thanks!
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tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. This only for extreme conservatives.
Traditionally non-extreme conservative politicians have done a dance with the Democrats (a la politics as usual) where they promise extreme measures and then the Dems filibuster them, they wring their hands say they tried yadda yadda. However, the Tea Party's campaign of intimidating conservative politicians has put them on the defensive, and Boehner for one (due to an unrelated disorder) is unwilling to make judgments about either the sanity or the morality of the Tea Party's agenda (or at least he will not stand against them).

I've done my own research, which I will be publishing in a couple years. I hope you don't go too far with these "conservatism = disease" assertions or it might turn out badly for you. I will not brook another insane media darling in our generation.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. C 11.
;)
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tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Read Brian P. Miller's Eight Ways to Run the country.
That's got the stuff. But it all comes down to positivism and negativism.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
17. I like this. Fuck right-wingers!
Those assholes deserve to have their cognitive abilities and mental health questioned. They like their slogan "liberalism is a mental disease". Oh really? They started it, so it's only fair that we find out who the mentally impaired ones are.
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Buns_of_Fire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R just 'cause it's fascinating... nt
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BobbyBoring Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. K and R!
I'm going to start selling my new "Super Duper Anterior Cingulate Cortex Building Formula"! I'll label it as "Super Libural Shutter Upper" so conservatives will buy it!

I heard Rush say something interesting the other day. He said he "Hated Group Think". I can't think of a better example of group think than ditto heads and beckites. A lady called in and said she thought "Soros" was behind Obamas plan to destroy America. Wonder where she came up with that? They are aware that someone is controlling our government. Pretty fucking amazing!
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. I've seen some interesting research on chimps and bonobos
Both are in our ancestry but have very different social structures
Chimp society has structure that gives power to the chimpanzees who can manipulate and work their way to the top through dominance.,Chimps also inherit power and wealth in the society. As well as a prevalence in being omnivores, eating both meat and plants. They are known to commonly form war and hunting parties dominated by an alpha male and are known to be far more violent and aggressive than their Bonobo cousins. There is also an experiment where a chimp was taken from its clan and its fur dyed pink. Even though the chimp still knew the other chimps, still smelled the same, etc. the rest of the chimps violently attacked the pink chimp every time the experiment was done.

The structure of a Bonobo society is based on an egalitarian structure, spreading power throughout the society., And although there is some society structure it is far less important than the chimps, and they are commonly known to have females in charge as well. They are known to resolve conflicts non-violently and are much less aggressive than the chimpanzees. They have been known to be bisexual and use sex to help resolve conflicts. They also mainly eat plants and easy to access insects, such as using sticks to get termites.

Maybe some of our whackjob conservative cousins just naturally have more chimp traits and the rest of us are bonobos. Whether or not there is anything to it, it's interesting.

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=93687&p=4635136
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'm not convinced it's entirely nature over nurture.
Edited on Fri Apr-08-11 02:58 PM by OnyxCollie
Fear can affect the belief systems of self-described liberals to make them act as authoritarians. Or they may act like authoritarians to not be fearful.

Who do you think was most supportive of laws like the PATRIOT Act which sacrifice freedoms to aid FBI terrorism investigations?

Self-described Liberals.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=582516&mesg_id=582750

I wrote a paper on this topic for a class I had. Here is part of the lit review:

“Behavior results from a process that involves, or functions as it entails, conscious
choice” (Monroe & Maher, 1995). These choices are developed through a method by which the
actor’s preferences are ordered and evaluated to determine which will provide the greatest utility
and what course of action should be taken to achieve them (Monroe & Maher, 1995). These
preferences include a predilection for survival (Chatterjee, 1972; Monroe & Maher, 1995).
Established and uniform, these preferences are shaped through the acquisition of information
(Jost et al., 2003) from opinion leaders whose function is to attach idea-elements together
(Converse, 1964).

This process of acquiring information from authoritative sources to satisfy preferences
which include survival is described as laying the foundation for a belief system (Converse, 1964;
Kruglanski & Thompson, 1999a, 1999b as cited in Jost et al., 2003; McGuire, 1985, as cited in
Jost et al., 2003). Converse (1964) and Kunda (1990, as cited in Jost et al., 2003) suggest that
this belief system is regulated by multiple constraints. The constraints offer a probability that a
specific attitude held in a belief system will result in certain other attitudes being held (Converse,
1964). These constraints are identified as logical, psychological, and social (Converse, 1964).
Jost et al. (2003) further expand on the concept by describing these constraints as existential
(fear, curiosity), epistemic (authoritarian, liberal), and ideological (group dominance,
egalitarianism). According to Jost et al. (2003), belief systems fulfill psychological needs.

Within the constraints, belief systems provide a principled doctrine by which new
information obtained is compared to prior associations in order to choose a course which
provides the greatest utility (Jost et al., 2003). However, these belief systems do not operate in a
vacuum; uncertain conditions and numerous variables can influence personal motivations by
invoking emotional responses, leading to a reformulation of logic that while not syllogistically
sound, is principled nonetheless (Jost et al., 2003).

Information gathering in early childhood requires the formation of relationships (Weber
& Federico, 2007). Attachment theory states that relationships are sought in order to reduce
anxiety and provide a sense of security (Sroufe & Waters, 1977, as cited in Weber & Federico,
2007). Successful proximity-seeking efforts create a secure attachment style, inspiring selfconfidence,
curiosity and an openness to new experiences (Ainsworth, Blehar, Waters, & Wall,
1978, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007). Failed proximity-seeking efforts result in anxiety
stemming from the lack of security, compounded by distress over the failure to establish a
relationship (Mikulincer & Shaver, 2003, as cited in Weber and Federico, 2007). Recurring
failure or inconsistency (Ainsworth et al., 1978, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007) in
proximity-seeking efforts creates two insecure attachment styles; anxious and avoidant (Weber &
Federico, 2007).

Anxious attachment style is associated with fixations on proximity-seeking and emotional
support (Weber & Federico, 2007). Avoidant attachment style abandons proximity-seeking and
instead relies on self-dependence to control anxiety (Weber & Federico, 2007). Brennan, Clark,
& Shaver (1998, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007) have determined that anxious and avoidant
attachment styles in adults manifest themselves as either elevated states of arousal with a fixation
on close relationships, or as an emotional disconnect with an aversion to close relationships,
respectively.

Duckitt (2001, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007) proposes that childrearing practices
lead to the development of personality traits which endorse world views that form ideology.
Children who have attained a secure attachment style are open to new information more than
those with either of the two insecure attachment styles (Cassidy, 1986, as cited in Weber &
Federico, 2007), as well as being less dogmatic and less reliant on ethnic stereotypes
(Mikulincer, 1997, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007). Additionally, Mikulincer & Florian
(2000, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007) have shown that secure attachment styles “mitigate
the effect of mortality salience on the denigration of moral transgressors” (p. 394).

It has been demonstrated that children who have attained insecure attachment styles later
as adults develop Right Wing Authoritarian (RWA) ideologies, in which the world is viewed as a
dangerous place (Altemeyer, 1998; Duckitt & Fisher, 2003, as cited by Weber & Federico, 2007),
or Social Dominance Order (SDO) ideologies, in which the world is viewed as a competitive
jungle (Duckitt, 2001, as cited by Weber & Federico, 2007). RWA’s are defined by a deference to
authority figures, an endorsement of severe punishment by authority figures, and a high degree
of conventionalism (Altemeyer, 2006). SDO’s differ from RWA’s in that rather than embracing
authoritarianism as a means of protection against an out-group which threatens society, SDO’s
feel that society has already fallen and that only the strong shall survive, prompting group
domination, punishment, and humiliation against out-groups (Altemeyer, 1998). Altemeyer
(1998, as cited in Jost et al., 2003) and Pratto, Sidanious, Stallworth & Malle (1994, as cited in
Jost et al., 2003) have shown that SDO’s correlate with Republican party identification.

In response to criticism that scales of authoritarianism neglected left-wing personalities,
Rokeach (1960, as cited in Jost et al., 2003) developed a scale of dogmatism which included
measures of logically contradictory beliefs and denial of contradictions in belief systems.
According to Rokeach:

All belief-disbelief systems serve two powerful and conflicting sets of
motives at the same time: the need for a cognitive framework to know
and to understand and the need to ward off threatening aspects of
reality. To the extent that the cognitive need to know is predominant
and the need to ward off threat is absent, open systems should
result. . . . But as the need to ward off threat becomes stronger, the
cognitive need to know should become weaker, resulting in more
closed belief systems (p. 67, as quoted in Jost et al., 2003, p. 346).

Thus, closed belief systems reduce ambiguity-induced anxiety by satisfying the need to know
(Rokeach, 1960, as cited in Jost et al., 2003).

Understanding of issues and concepts is dependent upon the strength of the connotation
associated with them, as well as effectiveness of the constraints by which the referred issues and
concepts operate (Converse, 1964). In his research, Converse tests the hypothesis that if
one idea-element in the belief system should change, an individual must either change his
position on the issue or change his position on the party. Examination reveals a majority of the
population sampled are unable to express an understanding of the constraints affecting political
parties and issues without being prompted by political elites. Furthermore, the
majority of the population view the treatment they and other groups received from political
parties as their primary means of identifying parties.

Altemeyer, B. (1998). The other “authoritarian personality.” Advances in Experimental Social Psychology, 30, 47–92.
Altemeyer, B. (2006). The authoritarians. Manitoba: University of Manitoba.
Chatterjee, P. (1972). The classical balance of power theory. Journal of Peace Research, 9(1), 51-61.
Converse, P. (1964). The nature of belief systems in mass publics. In D. Apter (Ed.), Ideology and discontent (pp. 206–261). New York: Free Press.
Jost, J. T., Glaser, J., Kruglanski, A. W., & Sulloway, F. J. (2003). Political conservatism as motivated social cognition. Psychological Bulletin, 129(3), 339-375.
Monroe, K.R. & Maher, K.H. (1995). Psychology and rational actor theory. Political Psychology, 16(1), 1-21.
Weber, C., & Federico, C. M. (2007). Interpersonal attachment and patterns of belief. Political Psychology, 28(4), 389-416.

On edit: This is a cool site about brain structure and political views:

www.neuropolitics.org
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Oh, I'm fairly sure it's not so clear also.

Thanks for the site!
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
24. Fascinating stuff Doc
If only there was some sort of pill for them. (Note: That was only half serious)
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