Help me out here.

[LoZoccolo]

1. Vote for a third party.
2. _____
3. _____
4. _____
5. _____
...
n. (Your favorite progressive policy here.)

[LoZoccolo]

1. NOTE: You can say that this is what your friend thinks will happen.

You do not need to advocate a third party to participate in this thread. You can say that your friend says what you post.

[gateley]

5. Even cuter. nt

[Trajan]

2. Ridiculous ....

[gateley]

3. Cute. nt

[LoZoccolo]

4. NOTE: I do not advocate voting for a third party.

I don't think I have any friends who do either, other than Libertarians.

I'm just curious if people out there have thought this out beyond step 1.

[Shagbark Hickory]

15. LOL. Nuff said.

[Angry Dragon]

6. Your premise is wrong

Have your principals shifted from the normal democratic party platform??
If not then it is not you that should start a new party, but kick out the ones that have lost their very souls to the devil corporations and only care how much Satan money that they can stuff in their pockets

[Tunkamerica]

7. not to mention your vice principals

[Lasher]

10. My HS principal was shifty.

But I don't believe all our principals are like that.

[LoZoccolo]

8. I'm saying that I have no idea how step 1 leads to step n. n/t

[donheld]

9. The help you need, very few at DU are qualified to give.

[LoZoccolo]

11. After one night, it looks like that is the case.

Let's give it some more time, however.

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. Various outcomes which can be summarised thusly

Scenario A.

1. Disgruntled "progressive" elements within the Democratic "big tent" agitate for the mounting of a primary challenge to an incumbent perceived as too moderate/compromising/conservative.

2. Said primary challenge to the incumbent if successful splits the party and weakens it considerably in the general election. (See: Ford/Reagan, 1976. See also Carter/Kennedy, 1980.)

3. Incumbent loses the election to be replaced by a Republican who will be much worse than the Democrat (never mind that the progressives were much less than thrilled with the moderate policies of said Democrat; after a year or two of a Republican presidency they'll be holding him up as a model of Presidential greatness in comparison. See: Bill Clinton. See also: Jimmy Carter.)

Scenario B.

1. Disgruntled "progressive" elements within the Democratic "big tent" defect to a third-party candidate in disgust at a perceived lack of meaningful difference between the Democratic and Repiblican nominees.

2. This has the effect of reducing the net vote totals for the Democratic nominee by a margin conceivably large enough to affect the outcome of the election and lead to a loss for the Democratic incumbent/nominee. (See: Ralph Nader.)

3. See parenthesis in 3 above.

The idea that somehow the defection of a relatively small percentage of the overall Democratic Party base to some third party will lead to the Democratic Party changing in the ways those defecting wish it to is one based on fantasy; the idea that a marginal third party represents any kind of meaningful political choice apart from expression of dissatisfaction with the two-party system is equally quixotic (the very nature of American elections, with their winner-take-all outcomes, tending to make two-party politics inevitable).

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. Got a scenario about disgruntled "center-rightists?"

We never here about that.

WWBB
Waiting With Bated Breath

[LoZoccolo]

13. I am still looking for help.

[jpgray]

16. Perhaps you could help me

1. Vote for a party that doesn't much care for your favorite policy.
2. _____
3. _____
4. _____
5. _____
...
n. (Your favorite policy here.)

I'm curious as to the process in both directions, as I'm not convinced two massive swings to the left at the polls (2006 & 2008) netted any significant shift to the left in our party.

[girl gone mad]

17. Touché. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

18. Sure.

2. Advocate for your issue amongst members of the party, leveraging credibility gained from supporting others' issues.
3. Advocate for your issue outside of the party amongst swing voters, creating incentive for a candidate to support it.
4. Repeat until a critical mass of support is achieved.
5. Support a primary candidate who supports the issue.
6. If step 2 has been successfully applied, the candidate should win the primary; if not, go back to step 2.
7. If step 3 has been successfully applied, the candidate should also win the general election; if not, go back to step 3.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

22. I'm not sure why your message got deleted, but I'll try to respond to it..

I actually didn't think it said anything that shouldn't be discussed, I just didn't have time to respond to it.

I think it had to do with the fact that someone could carry out the actions that I prescribe while still voting third party, and that there was no way of telling how someone was voting so they could be doing both. I would simply say that there still are real advantages to voting Democratic in the meantime, while trying to add another issue to the list of ones they support. One exercise that I've been going through with people who say that there is little or no difference between Democrats and Republicans, and that there are some legislators which vote with the Republicans "every time", is to actually focus on the voting record of a particular legislator who they think is one of the prime offenders, and find votes where they actually did differ with the Republicans. One of the last ones was a bill that would support health care for 9/11 rescue and cleanup workers, for instance.

In any case, there really isn't much of a workaround to gaining consensus in a democracy. The right wing has been very willing to do this with their vast propaganda network, and disciplined message coordination. This has cost a lot of money, which they have, but I don't think it needs to. Even if you can pressure the politicians into supporting something that hasn't gained traction amongst the electorate, you leave it wide open to repeal in the next term if the electorate doesn't have its own reasons for supporting it. I just really think that there's no way around it. The third-party maneuver is just a trick.

[walldude]

19. You don't need help you want validation...

I could tell you how we could pull it off but people like you don't want to pull it off. People like you are happy with the Koch brothers running everything, you are happy with the Democrats bowing to their masters and you do nothing on DU but post divisive bullshit designed to piss people off and start flame wars.

So take your little ball and run along home, maybe the freepers can help you. They are going to primary a guy who got them 98% of what they asked for.

[LoZoccolo]

21. I don't need to want to hear it for you to tell me anyways.