Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

FALSE PRETEXTS in LIBYA intervention called out by IRAQ WMD lies Whistle-Blower

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 08:13 AM
Original message
FALSE PRETEXTS in LIBYA intervention called out by IRAQ WMD lies Whistle-Blower
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 08:38 AM by Distant Observer


Richard Nathan Haass advised General Coin Powell at the State Department as Director of Policy and Planning under G.W. Bush. As such he is very familiar with the techniques used for creating rationales for war. He resigned publicly in protest over what he called false pretext for War in Iraq.

Now in calm, methodological testimony before congress, he pull the covers of the false pretexts used in Hilary Clinton’s State Department argument for intervention in Libya.

1. There were no real “massacres” of civilians in Libya prior to the call for intervention.
2. There was no reasonable evidence that civilian “massacre” would have occurred in Benghazi without coalition intervention.

(most “evidence” was based on out-of-context clips from Gaddafi threats directed explicitly at a small group of insurgents and that was accompanied by offers of unconditional amnesty and political reforms.)
3. The actions of the Libyan government and the destruction that came with the conflict was typical of a State’s response to armed insurrection.


http://www.cfr.org/africa/perspectives-crisis-libya/p24602


Perspectives on the Crisis in Libya


Richard N. Haass, President, Council on Foreign Relations

April 6, 2011
Richard N. Haass testifies before the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations

http://www.cfr.org/africa/perspectives-crisis-libya/p24602




ANALYSIS MUST BE RIGOROUS. In two critical areas, however, I would suggest that WHAT HAS BEEN ASSERTED AS FACT WAS IN REALITY CLOSER TO ASSUMPTION.

First, it is not clear that a humanitarian catastrophe was imminent in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi.

There had been no reports of large-scale massacres in Libya up to that point, and Libyan society (unlike Rwanda, to cite the obvious influential precedent) is not divided along a single or defining fault line.

Gaddafi saw the rebels as enemies for political reasons, not for their ethnic or tribal associations. To be sure, civilians would have been killed in an assault on the city – civil wars are by their nature violent and destructive – but there is no evidence of which I am aware that civilians per se would have been targeted on a large scale.

Muammar Gaddafi’s threat to show no mercy to the rebels might well have been just that: a threat within the context of a civil war to those who opposed him with arms or were considering doing so.
. . .
Multilateralism is not a reason for doing something. . . . multilateral support does not make a policy that is questionable on its merits any less so. To think otherwise is to confuse ends and means.
. . .
There is little reason to conclude that the Libyan opposition will any time soon be able to defeat the Libyan government. It appears to lack the requisite cohesiveness and skill.

THE COMBINATION OF A NO-FLY ZONE, BOMBING, and arming might, however, have the effect of leveling the playing field and prolonging the civil war, LEADING TO MORE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN THE PROCESS.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. Duh!!
We knew that - we said that. Ah well!!
Imperialism gone mad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2.  BUT look at the poor deluded folk following Libya social network propaganda every day
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 09:22 AM by Distant Observer
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yep, the thousands of dead Libyans
were poor deluded folk.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. +rec
fitting that he has a ghadaffi signature photo
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. How UNINFORMED. It is not a sig photo, but an example of why we believe the propaganda
They put up the picture of a crazy old Bedouin along with "excerpts" from his
megalomaniac rants and the racist everywhere
happily accept that it is okay to kill thousands of the demons who support him.

It is just another version of the "Blacks" going to rape you daughter, "Willie Horton"
racist whistle technique.

It works so well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. False equivalency.
You may have missed the news of the woman who was raped.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
70. women are raped by police in the us. should canada bomb us?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
77. We did not miss that story. What we did miss were the
stories of the missing, raped and beaten Somali women who were working in Libya but were attacked by anti-Qaddafi forces after the uprisings began.

To report those stories of those poor women would not fit the narrative or made a case for putting troops on the ground.

Has anyone heard any follow-up on what happened to those, apparently, invisible women?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Unfortunately, those women were too "black" to matter. Or AC360 would have them on
every night of the year there were so many reports that were ignored because the perpetrators
were the noble rebels whom we support.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. If there are thousands who support him
- why does he have to import mercenaries to fight for him?
- why have there been defections of troops to the rebels?
- why does he have to threaten people?
- why is no one ever allowed to criticize him?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. WHY doesn't everyone support OBAMA. He must be demonic if you listen to the haters
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 10:47 AM by Distant Observer
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. pardon?
What the heck does that mean?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #13
29. Factional Opposition, coup and assasination attempts documented for decades
Both opposition and support for the Gaddafi regime has a long record.

Before the major Western sanctions, Gaddafi was famous and hated for the high level of
popular support he had in Libya.

His support was so high he could do thing that some were very opposed to -- open borders immigration,
large foreign aid to poorer African countries, large amnesty to opposition fighters -- and still remain popular.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. ...
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 10:32 AM by tabatha


Gaddafi did not need popular support to do what he wanted - he just did what he wanted, and any opposed to him were hanged in a public square so as to warn other not to oppose him.

Boy, I hope you enjoy it when Gaddafi is hauled off to the Hague and is locked up for the rest of his life.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
72. why does the us "import mercenaries" to fight for it?
if there were so many defections to the rebels, why can't they defeat khadafi, even with us air support?

why wouldn't he "threaten" people who are trying to overthrow him?

how do you know no one is *ever* allowed to criticize him?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
46. +1...nt
Sid
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I never buy BS
and M$Greedia is not my source for the truth
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
28. Desmond Tutu
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. He said the carnage must stop. He didn't say, let's make it worse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Have you read anything that Tutu said?
“The South African government took the moral position last week of supporting United Nations Resolution 1973 on Libya. Now, it should go a step further and urgently and unequivocally condemn the violence being perpetrated against Libyans."

http://allafrica.com/stories/201103210790.html



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
80. Have you? Try readng your own post. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #28
42. Deceptive Practice? Tutu has CALLED FOR END of Conflict by negotiation

http://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/tutu-calls-for-end-of-libya-conflict-1.1051306

I also support non-violent resolution of the conflict.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Yes, but he supported the fact that
South Africa voted to support Res 1973 because of the violence by Gaddafi against his own people.

It would make sense that he wants it stopped --- either by Res 1973 but preferably by negotiation.

We are almost all on the same page here

--- Tutu wants the violence to stop!! One of those ways was Res 1973, that he supported. He obviously also supports talks.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #45
82. Coalition members already acknowledge that NFZ talk and vote was "fig leaf" for strikes

aimed at destroying Gaddafi regime grip on power.

They admit the truth of the Defense Dept Intel -- no evidence of that Gaddafi deliberately
used Airforce to bomb any civilian target.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. I keep thinking of the fake Contras and the Bay of Pigs. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. The fake Contras and the Bay of PIgs
originated with the US.

The Libyans THEMSELVES were doing what the protesters were doing in Tunisia and Egypt.

For God's sake, why would Libyans die in their thousands for something they do not believe in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
35. Precisely. The Contras and the Bay of Pigs originated here. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
44. And the Arab Spring
started in Arab countries by people fed up with their governments.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. Libya is NOT "ARAB SPRING." Arab Spring was USED by long-running armed factional opposition
That was the Defense Dept. and Intelligence assessment
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. So, it was a Libyan-sourced uprising.
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 11:07 AM by tabatha
Btw, please provide links to evidence that they were armed.

From what I have seen/read, they were only able to get weapons from the stores that Gaddafi held after they were expelled from Benghazi, and it was one of the reasons that Gaddafi blew up the arms depot soon after.

There have been countless stories from all media, foreign and local, about how poorly armed the rebels are.

So, I think your wording "armed factional opposition" is actually not the truth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #49
55. Well documented record of militant opposition since overthrow of theocratic King Idris
Various opposition factions have been backed by the West and by the Gulf emirates for decades.

The Libyan opposition factions are well known to have arms and training because of Gaddafi's
lax and inconsistent approach to security -- with the army basically decentralized into little brigades
and militant training camps spawned all over the East for years.

Check out a small catalog of sources posted in the Asia-Pacific Journal.

http://japanfocus.org/-Peter_Dale-Scott/3504
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Sorry, I have found the Asia-Pacific journal
to be unreliable in the past.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. You trust Western media that supported Vietnam, Iraq, Indonesia -- Millions killed?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. Where did I say who I supported.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. The Asia-Pacific Journal post is just a catalog of References Cited -- Go to those!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. Total BS.
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 09:42 AM by tabatha
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x571643

It was never just a threat - it was real.

I guess the massacre of 1200 people in 1996 was just a threat, too? The public hangings of students, fiction?

The Lockerbie jet downing was just a threat, too?

I guess the enormous column of military vehicles that stretched for miles heading to Benghazi was just fiction?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWwOeZqz6M

I guess the ICC reports are just fiction, too?

Other fiction:
Libyan pilots who defected
Moussa Koussa who defected
Younis and many other Libyan forces who defected.

I would trust a Libyan to tell the truth about what was happening any day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. The Director of National Intelligence testified that it was NOTHING outside
the scope of a civil insurrection.

Lieberman and McCain call for his dismissal when the testified in closed session that
the facts were being exaggerated for public consumption.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Did you see the video of the
Gaddafi troops that were heading toward Benghazi?

That was hardly exaggeration.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. If the tea baggers rose up against Obama, what would you expect him to do?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. The tea baggers
have had peaceful demonstrations against Obama - even some with guns - and what did he do?

The Libyans, completely unarmed, started out with peaceful demonstrations - and they were gunned down.

The Hague, yes the Hague, has evidence that before there were even protests by the Libyans, Gaddafi had decided to use bullets.

Sorry, I will go with the Hague.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #17
34. The demonstrations in LIbya turned violent almost right away.
And the ICC is conducting an investigation. Every head of state in the Middle East has a plan should he be faced with armed insurrection.

They're still shooting at protesters in Egypt. There were casualties yesterday.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. Yes, because Gaddafi started shooting at unarmed protesters.
The violence was initiated by Gaddafi.

“If Africa’s leaders held their peers to account there would be no need for the people of Libya to suffer human rights violations,” said founder of the Desmond Tutu Peace Centre, Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu. “And there would be no need for United Nations sanctioned military interventions in Libya.

“Instead, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi has for more than 40 years honed his skills in the art of resource management to win friends and influence people. And as a result, Africa seems powerless to stop him.

“The scenes of brutality being meted out with sophisticated weaponry by Libyan security forces against their own civilian population make God weep. With every blow they strike, each human rights abuse they perpetrate, they bring shame on Africa,” Archbishop Tutu said.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201103210790.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #43
60. Tabatha, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain is shooting unarmed civilians!!! Please, more civilians are being
killed in peaceful protests in these countries than RPG-wielding militia in Libya today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
65. Can you imagine the TEA BAGGERS roaming around with WEAPONS like Libyan opposition??
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 12:12 PM by Distant Observer

Raiding arms depots, killing police, Government soldiers, and threatening to kill the President, overthrow Congress






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. And they could not be stopped without mass Killing and destruction! Right??

We don't have that capability. We only do SHOCK AND AWE and a $Billion of bombs.

What if some other country treated us like that when we go after insurrections HERE.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. What are you saying and what are you meaning?
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 10:17 AM by tabatha
You make no sense.

The coalition has killed very few people.

The vast number of people who have been killed in their thousands are the Libyans, by Gaddafi's forces.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
50. Where did you get "KILLED VERY FEW PEOPLE," from? They killed a heap of
rebel civilians and armed forces and that was the only time deaths
seem to be counted by the coalition -- just like in Iraq.

Did we keep count of how many we killed in Iraq?

Did you know that estimates approach a MILLION. But these killings are not counted!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. I am well aware of the numbers in Iraq.
I hated the Iraq invasion.

Please provide a source that allows you to claim that "a heap of rebels" were killed.

"15:56 The Telegraph The opposition now seems a little placated over the “friendly fire” incident yesterday. A spokesman said:
We are not questioning the intention of the NATO. It appears that there has been a breakdown of communication, perhaps due to the visibility on the ground … and that the positions of our tanks have not make clear to the NATO."
http://www.libyafeb17.com/page/2/

In fact, if I can find the quote, when the rebels were complaining that NATO was not doing enough, NATO responded that they were concerned about civilian casualties. The rebel leader replied, people are being killed anyway by Gaddafi. Please just bomb Gaddafi tanks. NOTE - that is MY paraphrasing.

I need to find the quote.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #53
59. Don't you understand that we NEVER get real data on locals killed

Just think back to the Iraq war. We don't believe the "enemy." So we only accept what Westerner
can prove and that is usually when their own are killed.

Did you notice that the only reason we got a report of a missile stike blowing up a civilian home
in Brega was because there was a British doctor who was there to report that the type of
damage to bodies could only be done by a missile stike, not the kind of mortars used by Gaddafi or
the rebels.

Otherwise, those deaths, like all the other civilian deaths, would just be added to the
evil dictator's death tally.

That is the way it works.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
81. A column of military vehicles doesn't PROVE an impending civilian massacre
He's fighting a military operation to take back territory. The very idea that his threats of killing opposition members translates into PROOF of his desire to "massacre" civilians holds no water at all.

Qaddafi's well known for bluster and threats, so how is this tirade "proof" of massacre?

It's amazing how people can simultaneously label the man a liar, then shriek with proof that his words guarantee actions that are even more extreme than his words, but it's even more amazing how these theoretical deaths are then transformed into undeniable, actual deaths.

He's a military man, and his principal interest is most probably to destroy the rebel military forces and retake territory.

Where are the massacres in the towns he's retaken? If this was truly his bent, shouldn't real civilian bodies be stacked like cordwood in Ras Lanuf?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. leave ghadaffi aloooooonne!!
:cry:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Yes, he cannot possibly be the most brutal
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 10:01 AM by tabatha
dictator in the world, with 42 years of murder of his own people.

Leave him alone - let him continue his slaughter of his own people using outside mercenaries.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Tabatha, have you ever read a historical treatment of the Libyan Revolution
or examined the public data (UN reports, State Department) that existed prior
to the decision to launch the current information operation on Libya?

How many years did you live in Libya? In Africa?

Here is a ref written by British authors.

Qaddafi and the Libyan Revolution
David Blundy (Author), Andrew Lycett (Author)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. That book was wriiten in 1987.
After that, the West rehabilitated Gaddafi. They were for all intents and purposes on good terms with him. The thing that blew everything up was the "Arab Spring". In Tunisia and Egypt, the uprisings were successful. The Hague has information that before Libyans even started to protest, that after the Tunisia and Egypt uprisings, Gaddafi had decided that if they were to occur in Libya, the protesters would be shot if teargas did not work.

You are comparing apples to oranges.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
48. So? It was before the major Western efforts to oust Gaddafi began
and 20 years after the revolution began.

How old are you? Don't you realized that past is prologue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. Hobnobbing with Gaddafi
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 11:20 AM by tabatha
The West undertook a great deal of effort (started under Bush) long after 1987 to normalize relations with Gaddafi. That means, they were no longer interested in ousting Gaddafi. Please see the many photos of politicians from UK (Blair, who praised Gaddafi), France, and Germany hobnobbing (NOT OUSTING) with Gaddafi.

Oh, and by the way, please stick to the facts and avoid ad hominem.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #51
61. NOT IN 1987. Gaddafi's revolution was internally focused. Western assets NATIONALIZED!
I lived in the region at that time. Gaddafi was hated by both the West for
nationalizing assets and by the Kings and Emirs for over-thowing a fellow Monarch and
calling for distribution of wealth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. I am talking about JUST BEFORE THE FEB revolution.
Why on earth would I think 1987 was relevant to 2011 - if the West has changed their attitude?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. Cheap emotionalism belied by the facts

but don't let that stop you from supporting imperialism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Where are your facts to support your contention?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
73. the most brutal dictator in the world my ass
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Hannah, It is AMAZING the power of Anti-Gaddafi PROPAGANDA disseminated over the last
decades, especially after Lockerbie.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
22. Folks, can we at least READ THE PUBLIC SENATE TESTIMONIES as well as twitter $ youtube propaganda??

Was the Defence Dept, Director of National Intelligence, and team of intelligence officials
risking their careers when they opposed Hillary and State policy by saying there was NOT
SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE of actionable war crimes by Gov forces in Libya??

Do they just hate their lives or hate President Obama and want to undermine his foreign policy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. The ICC is in Libya this week to investigate war crimes.
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 10:27 AM by tabatha
And by the way, Desmond Tutu, one of my heroes, and one who knows what goes on in Africa, supports the intervention.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. Wrong. Tutu, like me, support end of violence, but NOT level of Western Killing ongoing now
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. Please read the link


“The South African government took the moral position last week of supporting United Nations Resolution 1973 on Libya. Now, it should go a step further and urgently and unequivocally condemn the violence being perpetrated against Libyans.


http://allafrica.com/stories/201103210790.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. WRONG! Tuto, supports end of violence, as I do. But NOT mass killing by Coalition on behalf
of a minority insurgency.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. The coalition has killed very few people.
The mass killing is by Gaddafi.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
31. All is not lost - the Eurofighter makes it's arms sale pitch
Typhoon's Libya debut seen as sales boost



(UPI) -- The Eurofighter Typhoon has flown its first combat missions over Libya as part of Operation Odyssey Dawn, giving a boost to its European makers' drive to sell the $120 million, delta-winged fighter in big-ticket strike jet deals in Japan and India. "It never hurts to have the 'as used in combat' stamp," said Francis Tusa, editor of the Defense Analysis newsletter.

The Eurofighter consortium consists of Britain's BAE Systems, Europe's largest defense company, Finmeccanica of Italy and the European Aeronautic, Defense and Space Co. The fighter was designed in the 1970s to combat Soviet fighters but since the collapse of communism in the late 1980s there hasn't been much call for air superiority fighters. The Typhoon is also in service with Germany's Luftwaffe and the air forces of Spain, Italy, Austria and Saudi Arabia.

Riyadh, which has traditionally bought British as well as U.S. aircraft, confirmed in September 2007 that it had signed a $7.17 billion contract for 72 Typhoons, 48 of which would be built in the kingdom. The Saudis have been reported to be considering an additional 24 Eurofighters.

Meantime, the Eurofighter is one of several advanced jets in a contest to supply the Indian air force with 126 multirole combat aircraft in a contract worth in excess of $10.5 billion. The Typhoon is also involved in a contest for 40-50 new fighter aircraft for Japan."Eurofighter has offered Tokyo lots of sweeteners, including industrial participation," said Michael Auslin of the American Enterprise Institute in Washington.

The Persian Gulf emirate of Qatar has been evaluating the Eurofighter for an order for 24-36 fighters. Contenders include the F-35, F/A-18, F-15 Eagle and Dassault's Rafale.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2011/03/25/Typhoons-Libya-debut-seen-as-sales-boost/UPI-70101301081002/#ixzz1J2V4caJn

-----------------

what? you thought a 'humanitarian mission' can't make big money?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Probably true.
I am a pacifist, hate wars, but I also hate genocide.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #32
52. Tabatha, if there was real evidence of genocide, I would be the FIRST WITH YOU!

Why would the Director of National Intelligence lie to the President and the Senate in opposition to someone as powerful as Hillary??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. I don't know why someone would lie.
But if Tutu believed that innocent Libyans were being slaughtered with heavy equipment, then I go with Tutu. I love the man. I believe the man. He knows the leaders in Africa better than any US person.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #54
63. Have you met Tutu? Mandela? Lived in Africa? I HAVE
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. I was born there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Where? If you lived in Libya much of your life then I am shocked by you lack of knowledge, but

support your pacifism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. I meant South Africa.
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 12:31 PM by tabatha
Your questions were about Mandela and Tutu.

And I never claimed to be an expert on Libya - but I have followed the uprising very carefully, something you seemed not to have done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Tabatha, you really have to distinguish FACTS from insinuation and propaganda. We are in a world of
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 12:38 PM by Distant Observer
information wars.

Please remember how the MSM, Chalabi, and Curveball led Colin Powell, the UN etc into
supporting Bush's war killing a million Iraqis on totally false "information."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. I was not going to say this.
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 01:09 PM by tabatha
Because I don't like ad hominem.

But what I have been writing in my posts are sourceable facts - and every time I do that, you do not respond with an answer to what I have posted, but go off on some tangent not related - e.g. do I know Mandela or Tutu.

And this response is a case in point - you are generalizing and undertaking false equivalency to score points. I cannot see a single fact in your post. How the heck you can equate "Curveball" with Libya, when there was no Libyan "Curveball", completely boggles the mind. Goof grief! You are just throwing out gobbledygook that is totally unrelated.

Sorry - you will only be credible when you refute any of the stuff I have said with facts, and do not take off on a different tangent.

I challenge you to read the Libyan threads, and then provide links to support any arguments you make challenging the facts posted in that forum - with FACTS.

Really !!!! this is becoming childish.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. also documented fact that several insiders have said there was no basis for intervention.
no "massacres".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #76
84. "sourceable facts"? Please show numbers for the massacres and justify using "genocide"
Here's the UN's definition of the word:

"...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.

Bandying the word around cheapens its meaning. It's casually used in conjunction with political killings, but the heinousness of the crime is its bigotry component and basis in deeply rooted culture, rather than momentary allegiances.

Perhaps I've missed these "facts" you tout, but just what are the huge numbers I keep hearing? I find an incident of 24 people killed in a Tripoli protest, during which there was also some crowd violence. I also find an incident in Benghazi with another 24 and one with 10. There are smaller incidents elsewhere, but none over 10. These are hardly the mass killings one would expect from the hyperbole we're being whipped into a frenzy with, and there are armed elements within the crowds in some of these, which take them fully out of the realm of "innocent civilians" being mowed down.

The Zawiyah footage from Alex Crawford that Anderson Cooper showed shows rebels retreating with an already set-up 3-man tripod-mounted heavy machine gun with the ammunition belt attached. (This is at 6:48 in the accompanying clip.) Just before it, (at 6:36) you can see automatic gunfire coming from a pickup truck in the retreating crowd.

This is not a group of passive, unarmed civilians. The fact that the vast majority of them are unarmed is depressing, but those with the arms are certainly using the presence of unarmed civilians much in the same way one would call a "human shield". That, of course, is only done by the bad guys.

She then goes on to tell how she saw a teenage boy getting a quick lesson with an RPG, then yelling "God is Great" and going off to target a tank. This is hardly a civilian, and it's sure as hell not some unaligned secularist. To depict such incidents as PROOF of the horrific targeting of innocent unarmed civilians is simply inaccurate.

A closer examination of the footage shows MANY repeated shots. There is very little true action shown, except for a fairly emotional crowd marching forward and being turned back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC4e0qbAs2Y

Please show us these hard-and-fast facts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
39. K+1=R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
64. I am out of time.
Edited on Sat Apr-09-11 12:01 PM by tabatha
I have spent too much time on this and I have stuff to do today.

However, I have a question - why did Gaddafi declare a ceasefire 3 times, and then use that time to put his troops in position?

As for sources of information - I try to get a wide variety of input, and if something is confirmed by many, then I tend to go with that. I have deleted posts if I thought the source was iffy. That is why I like the Libya thread - it is like a news aggregator, and the people who post avoid iffy sources.

I cannot believe that the bloodshed and destruction I have seen on videos is some sort of Hollywood production.

But my most important guide through this is Tutu. There is no BS with this man.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703712504576242482618926812.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
WSJ: Are leaders succeeding in bringing change in places like Libya and Egypt?
Archbishop Tutu: It's a fantastic thing. One salutes especially the young people that they were ready to put their lives on the line. They knew these people they were demonstrating against weren't likely to step down easily. They knew that these people were likely to use force and it didn't stop them. It didn't stop them in Libya, where Gadhafi amazingly is bombing his own people. I think there does come a point where people see it's better to die free than to live on their knees.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jcRbvYDkp7UCN_zLDjJ6nHQOwESg?docId=CNG.f17ccd186019bcbb974a684d2c765d47.691
LONDON — Allowing Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi to escape trial could be "the lesser of two evils" if it means saving the lives of ordinary Libyans, South Africa's Desmond Tutu told the BBC on Sunday. "You keep having to balance what is a lesser evil. It's quite clear in the best of worlds it would be a good thing for us to say you clobber him, capture him and let him stand for trial.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
69. kr
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gravel Democrat Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
83. ^^^
Following the plan:

Backing up Globalization with Military Might
New World Order Onslaught
by Karen Talbot

McDonald's Needs McDonnell Douglas to Flourish

An article by Thomas Friedman in the New York Times entitled "What the World Needs Now" tells it all. Illustrated by an American Flag on a fist it said, among other things: "For globalism to work, America can't be afraid to act like the almighty superpower that it is....The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist-McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies is called the United States Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps." (23)

Corporations will stop at nothing

To achieve maximum profits these transnationals will stop at nothing. After all, they are non-human institutions that must expand through ever-greater profits, or go out of business. In so doing they have shown willingness to violate human rights-particularly workers' rights—to throw millions out of work, eliminate unions, use sweat-shops and slave labor, destroy the environment, destabilize governments, install or bolster tyrants who oppress, repress, torture and kill with impunity..."


The real reasons for the latest exercise in empire building...

http://www.globalissues.org/article/448/backing-up-globalization-with-military-might




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gravel Democrat Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
85. Kick for the most important article re: Libya since the humanitarian bombing began
Can't believe this doesn't have 300 replies. These allegations are not coming from some anonymous tweet from Virginia. They are not being made by some unidentified masked bandit in the desert. These allegations are from the *most* credible of sources.

Maybe, because if it's true, it means that the people that led us into this are corrupt beyond belief. It's understandable that most would not want to think that. Much easier to pretend that the news bearer is the one to blame. Or that none of this can possibly be true.

The tanks hit by tomahawks have people inside. And if this "kinetic military action" was ginned up by PNACers with another name, then dropping bombs on false pretenses might be called murder.

There is no statute of limitations on murder.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Northerner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
86. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC