It is now a crime to wear a burka in France. How do you feel about this

[applegrove]

law. I'm actually okay with it. Especially when I found out if you force a woman to wear a burka it can be punished with a year in jail. Anyone else?

[Poll_Blind]

1. Should that law be applied to these people?

:shrug:

PB

[applegrove]

3. Oh it should be applied to all people if it is applied at all.

[Poll_Blind]

6. I agree with you on the equality-under-the-law aspect. But only 367 women in ALL of France wear...

...the full veil. These types of laws usually have one group in mind over another, and the timing reeks of politics.

A survey done by the French police about how many women actually wore a burqua or Niqab in France turned up...367 women.

In all of France.

This smacks very much of the anti-sharia laws in Oklahoma. On the whole, it appears it is done for political effect.

PB

[FourScore]

12. Exactly. n/t

[pampango]

43. It's just conservative fear-based politics. Sarkozy is looking for far-right votes,

so you go after the tiny percentage of "others" who scare conservative voters who want their country back.

[Scuba]

44. Bingo!

[rpannier]

51. It's a small number true

But France has made been working to keep itself secular for years.
There are leftists in France who agree with the law (my cousins)

[blondeatlast]

83. +1. nt

[tsuki]

2. It's their country. I've got enough problems over here. nt

[iwishiwas]

4. yes, it is their country.-they can make their own laws.

[kstewart33]

5. The law makes a lot of sense.

One of the reasons behind support for the law was the violence done to Muslim women who were not wearing the burka in France. Rapes, beatings and other abuse have been on the rise.

Freedom of religion is fine except when anyone does harm to someone who is not following the abuser's version of their religion.

[riderinthestorm]

7. France's history with religious costuming is different than the US.

In their revolution they even forebade Roman Catholic collars in an attempt to institutionalize their secularity.

Comparing their history with US history is dishonest.

Plus, the French have a far more homogeneous view of their culture than we do. While our story is one of a melting pot, theirs is one of a very defined French secular society. They defend it ferociously and take pride in their secularity. It's definitely not the same as the US.

For me personally, I believe that garments that are designed to erase women from society, that are designed to ensure women are secondary - unable to hold jobs, interact with society freely, oppress them or intimidate others should be banned.

We have laws that already dictate what women can and cannot wear in public. Unless we are willing to address ALL of that patriarchal left-over crap about women topless in society et al, I say if we are going to regulate women's dress in the public square, at least draw the line at misogynistic garments designed to ensure women are erased, silenced and shrouded.

[snagglepuss]

39. Hear Hear. nt

[Teaser]

85. "In their revolution they even forebade Roman Catholic collars"

Their revolution? The one that ended up in an orgasm of beheading?

[a la izquierda]

112. Mexico's revolution did the very same.

No wearing of religious garb, period. They've amended the constitution, but it's been done by other countries.

[Terra Alta]

8. I have no problem with this law.

Wearing a burka is dehumanizing to women and quite frankly, is disgusting.

[Liquorice]

10. I agree. There's no place for burqas in any society

that values human dignity and equality.

[Zoeisright]

9. It's ridiculous.

No one should be force TO wear clothing or penalized for NOT wearing some particular clothing. The whole think stinks of puritanism.

[phasma ex machina]

32. +1 What about women who want to wear burkas to cover up a bad hair day?

How long before the powers-that-be decree that everybody wear identical clothing?

[Bunny]

38. Yeah, because that's such a common reason for wearing a burka.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

74. or perhaps they don't want to their picture taken, like London camera's everywhere?

[PassingFair]

92. Turban sales will skyrocket.

[Goblinmonger]

114. Are you confusing a burka with something else?

The burka ain't a hijab.

[Ilsa]

119. I believe they can still wear the hijab, or headcovering. nt

[BlueJazz]

11. Good for the French. I'm always happy when the "Sky-Fairy people" are put down.

Also...Those things make great covers for crimes.

[onehandle]

13. Their Conservative President is to the Left of our President.

I have no comment on the Burka thing.

[krabigirl]

100. No, he isn't. Only on economic issues. Otherwise, he is very right wing and anti personal liberty.

oh, and very pro-war.

[leftstreet]

14. Can Nuns still wear their....(what is it? habits?)

:shrug:

[riderinthestorm]

16. Not equivalent. Nun outfits dont obscure the face. Burqas do. nt

[leftstreet]

17. That's the legal distinction? So ski masks are out?

[riderinthestorm]

20. Yeah, in many places in western society, yes, ski masks are out.

Try going into a bank with a ski mask....

[Liquorice]

23. They banned any kind of face covering in public. nt

[ohheckyeah]

24. Probably except for on the ski

slopes. Many places don't allow one to cover their face in public.

[onehandle]

25. No they're not --->

From Wikipedia:

The ban is officially called, 'the bill to forbid concealing one's face in public.' It refers neither to Islam nor to veils. Officials insist the law against face-covering is not discriminatory because it would apply to everyone, not just Muslims. Yet they cite a host of exceptions, including motorcycle helmets, or masks for health reasons, fencing, skiing or carnivals.

[leftstreet]

27. "a host of exceptions"

Indeed.

Thanks for that

[rpannier]

52. And how many people are seen walking down the streets of Paris with their fencing mask on?

Helmets are worn for safety on the bike.
Try wearing one in a bank of government building

[Warren Stupidity]

48. try wearing a ski mask into a bank

tell how that works out for you

[leftstreet]

88. Is that French constitutional law or bank policy? n/t

[onehandle]

22. Few wear habits regularly any more and they do not cover their faces. Additionally...

Habits are purely a symbol of faith. Burqas are quite different.

[snagglepuss]

40. Nuns habits aren't facial masks. France bans any sort of mask in public.

[onenote]

63. except, of course, for all the ones that they don't ban

[riderinthestorm]

69. The exceptions like a motorcycle helmet aren't a part of anyone's 24/7 public "face"

You use it to ride your motorcycle. You use your fencing mask when you fence. You don't don it as part of your wardrobe every day as you shop at the grocery store, have a parent teacher conference at school, or go to the post office for stamps.

You really don't see the difference between a motorcycle helmet and the burka?

[snagglepuss]

80. They ban all face masks. Care to cite face masks they allow?

[onenote]

82. translation of exceptions clause:

"The prohibition described in Article 1 does not apply if the attire is required or authorized by law or regulation, if the attire is justified for health reasons or professional grounds, or if the attire is an included part of sports equipment, of festivals or or artistic or traditional demonstrations."


I'm curious whether anyone wearing a white surgical mask to cover their face at all times when they're in public will be confronted by the police and asked for proof of a health reason for wearing the mask and what would consitute such proof.

If Muslin women replaced their niqabs with surgical masks, would that be okay?

[riderinthestorm]

91. I expect it would be. Does a surgical mask have the same cultural baggage as niqab?

On the other hand, I'm guessing that anyone who goes into a courtroom and decides to wear either their fencing mask or their motorcycle helmet while testifying will be asked to remove it.

I do believe that some common sense will prevail.

[onenote]

93. it seems like you're admitting that its not a "neutral" provision but one targeted

at a particular cultural practice.

If someone covered their face to hide their identity while engaging in an act of free speech and/or civil disobedience (protesting against a military action or against the WTO), should this law apply? What exception would protect the protester? Is it a good thing if the law applies not just to burqa and niqab wearing muslim women but also to protesters? Or is that a bad thing? If its a bad thing, what justifies drawing the distinction?

[riderinthestorm]

95. Oh it definitely is aimed at a particular cultural practice

I'm dead cert its about the misogyny inherent in the garment, something that the French aren't thrilled about. That there are other issues around face covering in western cultures adds to that. France has even banned headscarves and other religious garb in schools which the vast majority of French people, including their Muslim population, agrees with.

I expect that the law will be challenged during protests. I have no idea how they will respond. Perhaps somebody will try to testify in court with a fencing mask on. Should they be allowed to do that? How about wearing their motorcycle helmet into a police station to answer questions, do you think they will be allowed to do that? Should they be?

Those are areas that obviously haven't been explored yet with this law. Just as women wearing niqab or burkas became an issue that was addressed legally, I expect that if face covering comes up with protesters, or people who testify, or people who want to cover their face during police questioning it will also be addressed. And rightly so. We have a history and tradition of discussing these things and making judgments that work for our various cultures.

FRANCE has made this decision.

[onenote]

96. The fact that France has made this decision is hardly a reason not to have and express an opinion

on it.

Presumably there are plenty of situations in which you would agree with that sentiment.

[snagglepuss]

94. But we're told only a handful of womem wear face masks so the ban is no big

deal since it is not a religious requirement.

[onenote]

98. So the fact that its a really small minority of people that are affected is what makes it okay?

And assuming that its not a religious "requirement" is a slippery slope for the government to be going down. Within all religions there are a range of beliefs and practices. The most conservative/fundamentalist believe that some of these practices/beliefs are a "requirement" while others who profess to being adherents of the same religion believe that they are optional choices. Should the government be the one to decide whether keeping kosher is a "requirement" for Jews or a choice? Should the government be the one deciding whether giving up something for Lent is a requirement or a choice?

The government has decided, rightly in my view, that bigamy is bad for society. So it bans it, even for those that claim that they should have a religious right to have more than one spouse. I'm okay with that because there are no exceptions -- its not aimed merely at those who practice bigamy for religous reasons. But this law seems aimed specifically at those who cover their faces for cultural/religous reasons. Sure its broadly stated, but if its applied against protesters, which will make it neutral, I think a lot of people supporting it will be appalled.

I understand that there are those who support it because they view burqas as dehumanizing. Of course, there are those that believe high heels, mini skirts, and a variety of other apparel chocies made by women are objectifying and harmful. If the point of the law is to protect women from being forced, by threats of violence, to wear something they don't want to wear, why limit it to face coverings?

[iris27]

15. Fine by me. It always pisses me off when women's oppression is ignored for the sake of

"tolerating multiculturalism".

[applegrove]

26. When Ontario was dealing with the issue of sharia law for non criminal

issues I was for it because there were aboriginal and jewish courts and I did not see how you could allow these but not the other. The Ontario premier banned all of them. Was the right decision. I'm now embarrased that I didn't see that out.

[Happyhippychick]

47. + 1

[grahamhgreen]

18. Bikinis not Birkas!

[petronius]

19. I would oppose such a law here, but the French can do whatever they want in their own country

I would be in favor of the law against forcing women to wear it, however...

[Historic NY]

33. We have laws here had for many years....

http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html#NEW YORK

[petronius]

116. How many of those would apply to a burqa or other religious garment?

From your link I took a look at my state, for instance, and it appears to be a very different thing than the French law...

[Cleita]

21. No woman should be forced to wear a veil.

No woman should be forced to take off the veil if she wants to wear it. That's freedom of choice. If the state passes a law that states what a woman can or cannot wear, they have become a police state that has contempt for individual rights and privacy especially when it's limited to a gender. I doubt if they would pass laws stating whether men can wear beards or not.

[leftstreet]

28. +1

[Skidmore]

55. And no woman should be forced not to wear one if that is what she

wants to do.

[blondeatlast]

84. =1. nt

[iamtechus]

29. I'd like to say something defamatory about the French but, being from the US, ...

I don't have much room to talk.

[kestrel91316]

30. The French are free to decide this for themselves. Not my business.

[somone]

31. When in France, do as the French do

[emilyg]

34. I'm ok with it.

[Ramulux]

35. France is fucked up

There is a lot of racism and xenophobia over there and its likely that an Islam-hating right-wing psychopath will be their next president.

Women should be able to wear whatever the fuck they want, how anyone could believe otherwise is beyond me.

[krabigirl]

101. agreed.

[OHdem10]

36. In weird sort of way, I can kinda understand it. At least I am not

willing to come down hard against France for doing this.

[Libertas1776]

37. I support the idea of it...

when you are in public in a Western society, people have a right to be able to see your face and identify you, not to mention a whole number of security and safety reasons. Covering your face up is unacceptable.

However, that being said, the fact that there is, according to the French national police i believe, less than 400 women in the entire friggin country that actually wear the whole kit and caboodle, its pretty evident that its just an election season ploy by the right wing govt to whip up votes from xenophobic voters.

[Prometheus Bound]

41. I just don't know.

[LooseWilly]

42. I hereby recuse myself from judgement...

... My cousins have to wear hijabs, and they are not pleased... I have no objectivity... and I suspect few others (including the French) do either.

[rucky]

45. It makes France have zero credibility getting themselves involved in Libya.

for one thing.

Not to say NATO is much better, but really - how do we explain our involvement to the Libyan people in a credible way when western nations do shit like this?

[krabigirl]

103. Oh, it gives them credibility. they love bombing brown people, just like we do. nt

[PotatoChip]

46. I think people should be allowed to wear what they want.

I doubt that all of these women are being forced to wear them. Some percentage yes probably, but many may just choose to wear the burka for whatever reason(s) of their own. Why restrict them from wearing what they wish just because some are being forced to?

And as far as punishing someone w/a year in jail for 'forcing' a woman to wear a burka, i think that is a bit excessive, and more importantly unproductive. If french authorities come across cases such as this, why not educate the over-controlling perpetrator w/some classes on equality in relationships?

[Warren Stupidity]

49. I used to be on the other side of this issue

I've changed my mind. This is 'freedom of religion' meets 'oppression of women' in a head on collision. I'm siding with government intervention to stop the obvious and blatant oppression of women within islamic culture.

[lunatica]

50. The burka is a torture device

Designed to practically cripple women in every way. From bulky and heavy to suffocating and unwieldy, all in the name of religion. It's time women stopped being punished for being women, or for having hair or legs or even beauty.

I remember when Catholic women had to wear a veil or scarf to cover their heads in church. Women wouldn't dare go into churches without them for fear of committing the Capital Sin. Yet after the Vatican relaxed that law you rarely see women covering their heads.

[Dogtown]

53. Are crucifixes outlawed?

The law is racist in intent and application.

I'm opposed to organized religion, but this is clearly an attempt to outlaw ONE religion and I will stand opposed to it on that basis.

[Bunny]

58. Yeah, they are the EXACT same thing.

[Dogtown]

59. Close enough for me.

I'm not sure you actually agree, though.

Your reply was ambiguous and could be taken as sarcasm.

[Bunny]

60. It actually is sarcasm.

[Dogtown]

62. Yeah, your screen name finally registered.

Have a nice day.

[EFerrari]

61. I oppose the practice of shrouding women

just as I oppose the Catholic ban on birth control and abortion.

[Dogtown]

64. So do I.

But if there are to be government sanctions against religion, those sanctions should apply to all.



This law is just a grandstand shout-out to racists and Islamaphobes. There is no intent to protect women behind it and will only serve to force the believers into seclusion.

NOT any sort of solution.

[riderinthestorm]

66. Burkas are not religious. They are cultural. nt

[Dogtown]

75. I fail to see the distinction.

The point remains that this law is designed to appease bigots, not free women of any culture or belief system.

[EFerrari]

71. The text of the law does not single out any religion.

The burka is an instrument of dehumanization and even social death. I think, despite the bigots and their intentions, this will have positive consequences for women in France.

[Dogtown]

72. That's a quibble.

The text surely need not single out Islam, the bigots recognize the target.

I'm not convinced of your argument, but I do see your point.

[EFerrari]

76. I don't have any illusions about where this law comes from.

I wish I could find a photograph that I saw just after we "liberated" Kabul. It was of two young girls beaming because they had shed the hood part of their burkas. Maybe they were 12 or so.

The photograph was propaganda, for US consumption, to justify the bombing and invasion of Afghanistan, which I opposed and still oppose. And those little girls are probably shrouded again. But I'll never forget the look on their faces.

[Dogtown]

115. I believe your motives.

I share and applaud them.



I just don't believe this is the way.


I have pressing business, but it's been fine discussing this with you.

[EFerrari]

117. Pleasure is mine. n/t

[blondeatlast]

87. Neither does AZ SB 1070--but we both know the intent of that one. nt

[EFerrari]

89. Yep. However, unlike the French ban on face coverings,

the consequences of 1070 are awful for everyone.

[Township75]

54. Unless a Hollywood star says it is a human rights outrage, we should just let them do what they want

.

[Keith Bee]

56. It's their country

They can pass whatever laws they like.

[EstimatedProphet]

57. I don't live in France. That's how I feel about it.

[kiva]

65. I say good for France.

The fact that the real punishment is for anyone who forces women to wear burkas shows the intent of the law. Cultural choices in dress have been controlled by governments (including ours) before, so not any groundbreaking legislation.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. i think what it will do is restrict the access to public spaces that these women have

which if the politicians in france had consulted with the islamic community leaders, they would have known. i stand with human rights watch and other such organizations, in opposing this discriminatory law.

[leftynyc]

68. I'm fine with the law

I hate the fucking niqub and burkas - just trying to make women disappear.

[slackmaster]

70. I don't care one way or another

I would be in favor of a ban on wearing a burka while driving.

[Snoutport]

73. The really religious families might just not let their females go outside anymore

I wonder if there are women who will not be allowed to go outside of their houses now.

[EFerrari]

79. Probably and that will be unsustainable. n/t

[TheKentuckian]

77. I don't favor the state making dress codes and taking it a step further enforcing dress codes with

prison terms.

I'd fight against it here. I'm not comfortable with burkas but I'm staunchly against telling a woman she cannot wear one if she desires, whatever my personal beliefs are.

I also think it is a cheap political stunt to ride the xenophobia wave and as such is disgusting as hell.

[otohara]

78. I Agree With Law

hate those burkas - ugh!

[CBGLuthier]

81. It is NOT a crime to wear a burka. It is a crime to wear it IN PUBLIC

They can sit at home and cover their silly little faces all they would like.

[onenote]

90. it actually is a crime to wear a burqa while sitting in a private car

So if a person wearing a burqa at home decides to go worship at their mosque and they go into their garage, get in a car and go directly to the mosque without ever getting out of the car "in public," they'd still be open to be arrested while they are in their car.

[Zorra]

86. Complete violation of democratic individual rights. Hitler is smiling in hell. nt

[Mz Pip]

97. I'm okay with it too.

The burka is a symbol of the oppression and devaluing of women. The law is saying, "Not in France, you don't."

[krabigirl]

102. what if someone just wants to wear a face veil? ARe they devaluing themselves also?

[Mz Pip]

107. You are changing the subject

This is about burkas.

[krabigirl]

99. Not just the burkha, but niquab (sp) and anything covering the face.

I am absolutely not OK with this, but I am not French. My husband is, and my kids are, and I am not sure how he feels about this but I am sickened by it. Sarko is pandering to the far right and the racists, as only about 2000 women wear face veils there. Makes me want to go there and wear one TBH.

[Mz Pip]

110. Maybe Muslim women need to

go through their own version of the bra burning days of our 60s. We didn't have it nearly as bad.

[rollin74]

104. I support this law

France is doing the right thing
:thumbsup:

[mondo joe]

105. In the US I'd oppose the law, in France I'm not troubled

My opposition the law would be that it infringes on the right of women who may wish to wear the burka. That's as much a violation of their own agency as being made *to* wear it.

But France isn't the US and they have a distinct culture they seem to want to preserve and that's their business.

[Zorra]

106. Screeeeam! My God, what is wrong with this picture?

I cannot believe DEMOCRATS(?) at DU are supporting a purportedly democratic government mandating what someone can or cannot wear in public if that is their sincere choice. (Please, don't respond with, well, the government makes us wear clothes don't they?)

First of all, I completely support the law making it illegal to force someone to wear a burka. That's cool.

But forbidding someone to wear a burka if that is their sincere choice is absolutely fascist. What will they do next, make Jews wear a yellow star?

If the US government declared tomorrow that Hasidic Jews must stop wearing traditional hats, would you also support this law?

Or that Sikhs that are American Citizens must stop wearing turbans?

Or that Dineh or other indigenous peoples are not allowed to wear turquoise?

If you would support any of these things, I suggest that you check out freerepublic.com; because you will find a whole lot of like-minded kindred spirits there.

Aaaargh. Unbelievable.
:banghead:

[Ramulux]

118. Its insane

I have been blown away by the reaction on this site. I wonder if people would be saying the same thing if France banned yarmulkes.

[siligut]

108. The French don't permit mormon missionaries either

there is a line, it takes some thought, but I agree.

[alfredo]

109. Damn, I had my burka packed and ready for my Pas de calais

vacation. What's a guy to do nowadays?

[L0oniX]

111. If I wear a burka on my ass, is it as bad as burning a Quran?

[a la izquierda]

113. When I move to France, I'll tell you if I care.

Right now, what the French do in their country is zero business of mine.