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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:21 PM
Original message
Houston Doesn't Get A Shuttle?
WTF? :wtf:

The Smithsonian and Cape Canaveral are obvious choices. But, NYC and LA? WTF?
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Welcome to politics 101...
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Sad but true. n/t
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Drale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. How about Chicago
If its politics 101 Chicago should have been a shoe in.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:59 PM
Original message
These are stressful times--
it's kind to allow a public pout...
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Brigid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. I heard about this earlier today on CNN.
The Johnson Space Center doesn't get a space shuttle to display? That makes absolutely no sense.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yep, this is bullshit to the highest degree.
Seriously, NYC & LA? WTF?
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. That does seem wrong - Houston should have had one for the asking
(That said, this will definitely pull me down to the Science Center for another visit...)
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. agreed. Give one to houston
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. Why not, they paid for most of the space program through taxes.
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. We should be rewarded by what
we pay in taxes? If so, I want a personal exit ramp to my house, named after me, because of the amount of taxes I pay.:eyes:
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Have you paid that much? I seriously doubt it daddy warbucks.
Heaven forbid if a state gets a little return once in a while.
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Just making a point. n/t
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. All I can say is
Fuck NY and CA. Houston is the birthplace and epicenter of the space program.
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hardluck Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Fuck CA?
The shuttles were built here in California by Rockwell with major subsystems built by other CA companies like Grumman and Rocketdyne. Why shouldn't CA get a shuttle?
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Not over Houston. n/t
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Waaaaaaa!
Do you need a hanky?
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I guess so. n/t
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al_liberal Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. There were only actually two to give.
NY gets a pseudo shuttle (Enterprise, currently at Smithsonian) just like we have here in Huntsville (Pathfinder). Smithsonian, as it should be, gets an actual orbiter. FL because that's where they launch them, LA because it would be nice for people on the left coast to be able to see one in a museum. Just my two cents.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. Exactly
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. Houston and KSC in FL both have various mockups
which may explain why Houston doesn't get one beyond politics. The truth is that we shouldn't be retiring them, just converting to unmanned use and building a replacement.
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Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
13. Columbia broke up over Texas

I'm thinking maybe not placing another one in the state is a good idea.


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KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
18. How about Seattle
and the Museum of Flight?
We should have gotten one too.
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. However,
Houston does have the only remaining Saturn V still in existence, and they're restoring it :D
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I remember when those were state-of-the-art in hauling ass.
:rofl:

Yes, I'm old....

I'm so old I saw Styx when they were an opening act....

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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I'm old enough to remember when Rush was the opening act for
Blue Oyster Cult ;)

Also, before OSHA restricted their use of lasers...
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RT Atlanta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. restored Saturn Vs in Huntsville and KSC
n/t
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I'll have to confirm that.
Because I had read that the one in Houston was the last and that the other two had deteriorated too much to be restored.
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Okay, you're right.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/home/jsc_grand_opening.html

The 30-story tall rocket, which rests at the space center gate, is part of the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum collection and one of only three such rockets in existence.


Still, it's something that I'll always remember, even over the Shuttle :)
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four_leaf Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
28. Hm. A Rational Houstonians two cents....
Hey everyone. New to the forum here, but excited about posting for the first time.

I live in Houston and was very confused to turn on my local news station and see a giant angry banner of "HOUSTON : SNUBBED" flash on the screen as breaking news. Did someone break up with us? The reporter looked as if someone had.
"A day of disbelief. A day that we thought would never come. The day . . . that Houston . . . did not get an orbiter. ".
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/video?id=8068870 (Here is the clip from local Houston news. Again, please don't judge everyone Houston based on this. . .)

I was raging out by the end of the end of this. Once again, sensationalizing -nothing-.
I think the most negative reaction I had was "Oh. Huh." when I heard we hadn't gotten the shuttle, but my god to take it SO personally and be SO selfish. It only takes a few moments of reasoning and an ability to step back from bias, even your own.
Allow me to say this, America:
We here at Houston have enough space shit.
No really, America. We're good.

Have you been to Lyndon B Johnson Space Center lately? The answer is no, you haven't, because it's not open to the public. Lyndon B. Johnson, the actual loction of anything of value, is completely separate of Space Center Houston.

The visitor center, prviatly owned, has basically become the equivalent of a Chuck-E-Cheese. I cannot go normally just due to the fact that I can't handle the way that they are handling NASA. You really don't have to dumb down your facilities so much. It almost seems disrespectful. When I was young and walked through those halls, they weren't littered in bright colors with this garbage that they call 'events'. It was meant to induce wonder and be taken seriously. It's literally embarrassing to walk into if you're an adult. There's no sense of wonder, or awe or the sort of things that inspired older generations.

Oh, and of course, you have to love the 4 story ball pit that I've dubbed the "Hall of Eternal Screeching Ear Bursters" they've added. SO vital.
Now . . . Space Center Houston in actuality -does have- tons of rockets, crafts, planes, escape pods, simulators, control rooms, vacuum chambers, and a lot of really cool, up to date training facilities for astronauts. . . . located hidden from view.

However, the only way to see any of these crafts or pieces of history that Space Center Houston claim is o important to it? Is by taking the "Level 9 VIP Tour". Which is another great point. ...said VIP Tour includes a room that is filled with all sorts of Space Shuttles that you can walk inside of, half mock ups that a let let you see the workings of the ship, including actual simulators. Basically if you want to see these precious gems that the Houstonians are crying over, even if we did get a Shuttle, you have to pay 90 dollars a person to even see it.

In my opinion, these pieces of history should be public domain and either free or ridiculously cheap to see. Just like National Parks, they are owned by -America-, and no one person.

Screw you, poor people! You're not going to space! (Sarcasm.)
And get this, even when you pay that 90 dollars, you're not guaranteed to see anything but a few rooms( As stated on their website ). Due to them just not caring enough to try to accommodate tourism for those over 12 years old, they keep the ticket prices that expensive to keep the demand low.

Sorry to rant so long, but this really did piss me off because I was born in Houston, and I don't buy into this at all, even as an extremely avid NASA fan.
These places were picked because there is a severe need to generate more interest in the space program. In Houston, as a child, you pretty much cannot help but have an interest in space impressed upon you as it is. Just like the Houston local news report said: The first word said out there on the moon was "Houston, we have a problem. Well guess what? It's not with generating knowledge that NASA is in Houston. We already have facilities that bring in tourism. This is pure gimme-gimme greed.

You may ask me why I brought up money so much and was so harsh on how they run that facility in Houston for that price? Well. . .
If you look at the locations that were picked, I notice a trend.

The California Space Center? Free to enter, all exhibits free, even new ones. Even top special events? $7 is the top price. Period. Massive community involvement. I thought it was a weird pick at first, but who even knew Los Angeles had an interest in Space, let alone had a place that helps produce them near by. It's also a nexus for tourism from around the world, so. . . Seems win/win to me.
The Intrepid Museum? Much grander space, a $20 flat fee. Also free public events, free scholar level seminars, community events, and free series for children.
The Smithsonian Annex? They actually are moving their current shuttle to Intrepid, and they are getting a new one. Why? Free tours for children. Free access to the main exhibits, free programing, and an impressive amount of free seminars with real experts and experts in aerospace technology. Active in constant updating and community involvement.
The only choice I really didn't understand at first was the Kennedy Space Center, due to how much of NASA history they already have, and the general admission pricing. However, once you realize the sheer mass of these high-tech, serious exhibits that point is moot. Everything is included within the ticket, and their version of Houston's "Sector 7" tour is hardly staring at a bunched up warehouse of objects they wanted kept away from the children. They have hard core astronaut training experiences for adults. They have an astronaut come down for lunch each day to have a more personal experience with visitors for only $25 dollars (Something that Houston charges 50 dollars a head for.) Along with being in such a tourism heavy area, you start to realize how much KSP is actually contributing to NASA.

Why do I bring this up?
Lyndon B Johnson Space Center, the federally owned -real- building is actually completely off limits unless you enter as a teenager in one of their student programs or you are actually activly working for NASA. It's an 'office' building, so to speak. They don't want the general public to have anything to do with it.
In truth, the Houston Space Center, the place where this shuttle WOULD have been displayed, is privately owned separate of Houston's Johnson Space Center.
And that would be why you can find such find "Sponsors" on the website for Space Center Houston., which you do not find on any of these other space centers selected.

Very classy. Basically the center is treated like a race car driver. You can find sponsors such as "Discount Tires" and "The Pepsi Bottling Company".

Also apparently a company called "Northrop Gruman", another aerospace company out in Virginia has paid to be a sponsor, while simultaneously being allowed access to work with Lyndon B Johnson. They have no vested interest in Houston, but I assume it came with a foot in the door to NASA's actual facilities.
Also you see that there is zero community involvement on their part, and the only time they did a discounted or free ticket give away, it was sponsored and paid for by Mrs.Baird's Bread?

Before you go Googling and bring this up. Yes, the company is the is indeed called "The Manned Space Flight Education Foundation". Yes, that sounds very important.
But despite being registered as a charitable foundation, a quick look at OpenSecrets.org will reveal that from 2007 to 2010 alone, they have made special interest lobbying a habits, racking up over 150,000 dollars.

Also when you look through the owners and director of Houston Space center, you sure do notice that there are a lot of fat-cats, if you investigate what income and companies each of these people work for.

Richard Allen, CEO, who you can find on Forbes.com via a search, only was involved in projects like "Six flags Ove Gerogia", "Six Flags Adventures" and "Six Flags over Texas".
He also has been in contact with Ron Paul, who he coerced into lobbying for this privately owned building to the tune of 500,000 dollars. (also, this information can be found in public records.) If you look up how much revenue that Space Center Houston brings in + Up Keep? Things start to really sound suspicious.

The truth is? The whole argument stems from greedy private companies wanting money and not caring about the actual purpose of putting these shuttles for view. I for one am VERY thankful that our administration took the time to make the right choice.

So before you go bitching on this subject, just try doing a little research.





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four_leaf Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Oh, and one more adddition to my Houston rant...
Edited on Wed Apr-13-11 05:02 PM by four_leaf
Also, for the record, The Manned Space Flight Educational private group that owns this?

They made sure to register as a PRIVATE Charity organization. For those of you playing at home that means:

A private charity foundation receives most of its income from investments and endowments and private donors. This income is used to make grants to other organizations, rather than being dispersed directly for for charitable activities. It is put under less scrutiny for it's spending.


Also, since it's registered as a charitable foundation, it is extremely illegal for them to be doing ANY lobbying of any kind. =/
They also have not filed proper paperwork and have not responded to BBB requests to make sure they meet the criteria to be listed as a charitable organization.



Sorry, Houstonians. That's just how I feel.
I want everyone to enjoy what I've had available to me in this city since I was born. And for those of you still pissed here in Houston? You need to remember one thing:
If more interest is not generated in United States' space program, we're going to lose everything. Not just one lousy space shuttle, but our entire space program. Get involved in a dialog about changing how Lyndon B Johnson operates and it's involvement with this low-rent privately owned facility.

At the end of the day, you also need to stop blaming Obama for "TAKING YOUR SPACE SHUTTLE DERP DERP DERP".
The fact is we would have more than 4 shuttles and not even having this discussion if the previous administrations hadn't TANKED the space program in the first place!

And when I say I want everyone to enjoy it?
I MEAN EVERYONE.
Even the poor.
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