Good Effing grief!! Mom drives van into river, killing self and 3 kids

[malaise]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42564046/ns/us_news-life/
<snip>
A woman who had just been involved in a domestic dispute loaded her four children into a minivan Tuesday night before letting one out and driving the rest of them into the Hudson River, firefighters said. The woman and three young children were killed.

The 10-year-old boy who had been let out of the minivan ran to a nearby fire station and alerted firefighters, Chief Michael Vatter said.

The boy told firefighters his mother had driven off a boat ramp in Newburgh shortly before 8 p.m., about 60 miles north of New York City, and into the murky water of the river, Vatter said.

Inside with her were the boy's siblings: two boys, ages 5 and 2, and an 11-month-old girl.
----------------------
There are no words :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skidmore]

30. So who the hell, in your estimation, sinned here? That boy who

was forced to watch his mother commit suicide and murder his siblings? A woman with untreated postpartum depression? Sorry, but that is a very strange choice for scripture quoting.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

76. Thanks for this. That was a stunningly bad misapplication of scripture.

[Skidmore]

80. I'm still shuddering at the crassness

of that troll.

[tallahasseedem]

2. She might have been dealing with...

some severe postpartum depression. Man, this is tough. I feel for everyone involved.

[malaise]

5. Her youngest child was 11 months

Clearly she had issues but postpartum does not appear to be the problem here.
I feel it for her 10 year old son.

[JTFrog]

8. If left untreated, postpartum depression can last for months or years. n/t

[malaise]

11. Seriously didn't know that

:hi:

[babydollhead]

29. I had it for two years, didn't laugh, smile, or cut my hair

When I got pregnant again, it was like the cloud had been lifted. The first time I laughed felt like a dam breaking open.

[JTFrog]

33. I'm sorry that happened to you.

:hug:

[babydollhead]

38. Thank you. I didn't realize it until I was happy again.

[malaise]

100. Glad you recovered

:grouphug:

[Dappleganger]

53. It's different for each person who gets it, too.

One other thing is that schizophrenia can often show (if it runs in the family) during PPD.

The biggest thing to remember is that for those in deep depression, they have no bootstraps to pick themselves up by--those are gone.

[babydollhead]

90. yes. there is medication to help acknowledge the boot straps

in the best cases, with support and help and good love, it still is a BIG deal having little babies and kids at you all the time.

[Dappleganger]

99. Of course it's a big deal...

no person with that kind of depression should be taking care of children as they can hardly take care of themselves.

[bobbolink]

37. And, of course, in this country, everyone has "access" to treatment.

[uppityperson]

47. Unfortunately many don't, and many won't due to the stigma of "mental illness"

This country SERIOUSLY needs more accessible, affordable, non-stigmatic mental health care. The cost in terms of lives saved, of quality of life is so much greater than the dollar amount, should be one of those things that our taxes pay for and are accessible to all, and held as non-stigmatic by all. If I were queen of the universe, this would be a reality rather than a dream.

[dkf]

7. Could be

I have no words...

[Rage for Order]

13. You sure are quick to give her the benefit of the doubt

If the father had done this he would have immediately been declared a monster, and rightfully so. This woman was no less a monster.

It's amazing how people attempt to ignore what's directly in front of them.

[Lance_Boyle]

16. I'm a bit surprised no one here has blamed the husband yet.

Although there are already a number of posts blaming theoretical psychiatric maladies. :eyes:

Sometimes women are monsters, just like sometimes men are monsters. Funny how that "benefit of the doubt" thing is so one-sided.

[peace13]

22. My guess is the older child had a different father than the others.

Just a guess though. The article says that the mother took good care of the children and that the kids played well together. Sometimes bad things happen and we can't stop them. Too sad!

[malaise]

24. That was my guess as well

What a tragedy :cry:

[malaise]

69. We are wrong

The oldest child escaped

http://www.lohud.com/article/20110413/NEWS/110413006/Boy-10-escapes-mother-3-kids-drown-Newburgh?odyssey=tab

[peace13]

86. So sad. n/t

[Beaverhausen]

95. oh my god that poor little boy

:cry:

[Pithlet]

18. People who are sympathetic to people with mental illness and distress

are sympathetic for people regardless of gender. This bullshit notion that liberals only care about women is just that. Bullshit. I remember a thread a while back about a man who lost his job and was facing foreclosure of his home who killed himself and his family and there were plenty of people then who expressed sympathy for his situation and how the economy was to blame and how we'd likely see more cases like his. People are either inclined to take a person's mental state into account and have empathy for that, or they aren't (Hang 'em high!). Either type tend not to care whether the person is a man or woman.

[Rage for Order]

19. Where in the article was there any mention of mental illness?

And "distress" is never an acceptable reason to kill 3 children. If you're distressed get drunk or start smoking, but don't kill 3 children. The woman was a piece of shit.

[Pithlet]

20. What does the article have to do with it?

I was responding to your response to another DUer, accusing them of a double standard. The article about the man didn't mention it either. But peole gave him the benefit of the doubt, too. Just like the poster you're accusing of having a double standard.

[Rage for Order]

23. The man got the benefit of the doubt because he didn't kill his children

Yeah, that's an obvious double standard on my part.

[Pithlet]

What man are you even talking about?

[Rage for Order]

26. You said:

"The article about the man didn't mention it either"

I assumed you were referring to the person with whom the murderer had her domestic dispute shortly before slaughtering her children.

[Pithlet]

27. No, I was talking about the article about the man who killed his family.

It didn't mention mental illness either.

[Pithlet]

25. What man are you even talking about?

[peace13]

36. She killed herself and three kids.

Pretty sure there was some illness in her mental! News headline "Sane woman kills self and children, more at 11:00" It may have been sudden and unexpected but she definitely had a wire crossed for at least one moment!

[pipi_k]

42. There wasn't any but...

that doesn't mean it wasn't there.

And really, it takes a whole lot more than "distress" to make someone kill herself and her kids.

It takes someone in a LOT of pain. A LOT. Totally helpless and hopeless.


You don't get rid of helpless and hopeless by drinking, and in fact, alcohol could make it worse.


People without mental problems don't just up and kill their kids. Sick people do sick things.

All well and good to call this woman a "piece of shit" if one hasn't experienced what she may have experienced in her life.

[lapislzi]

87. +1

4 kids by the age of 25. That alone says volumes.

[uppityperson]

44. She killed herself & 3 kids and wasn't mentally ill? Bless your little heart.

[WatsonT]

35. Anyone who murders a child to "win" an argument is by definition mentally ill

And yet fathers who do it are simply murderers whereas mothers who do so are mentally ill.

Imagine if this were the dad. People would not be saying how sad it is that he didn't get mental help. They would be saying he's a monster who deserves to burn in hell.

Like it or not we do treat female murderers differently than male murderers.

[Pithlet]

41. These "imagine if it were the dad" arguments are simply fallacious.

I have never known a single person who is sympathetic to mental illness arguments who has ever been so only for women. Ever. It's ridiculous. Only women are ever found not guilty by reason of insanity? Really?

[uppityperson]

45. "have never known a single person who is sympathetic to mental illness arguments who has ever..."

"have never known a single person who is sympathetic to mental illness arguments who has ever been so only for women."

Seriously. Thank you.

[Pithlet]

49. Thanks. There's even a case

where a man ATE THE EYEBALL OF HIS LITTLE BOY. Seriously. And he was found not guilty by reason of insanity. Now, if this world were seriously the one we'd be led to believe by some here in this thread, where women were the chosen ones, and men were just sooooo second class. We women rule the world from our chose, privileged perches. Where everyone waves the wand at us and lets us off. Would that happen? I don't think so.

[WatsonT]

55. Not at all

I've see enough responses to both scenarios to know that there is a double standard.

Spousal murder as well.

[Pithlet]

57. Yeah, well

The most likely explanation is you have some sort of filter going on there. Because there's no evidence. Zero. None. That people only sympathize with women when they're mentally ill and kill because of it.

[WatsonT]

67. Yes, that's the most likely cause

because our society in no way treats women differently than men.

Anyone who says so is clearly blind.

[Pithlet]

70. Oh, is that what were were arguing?

Nope. I dont' think it was. But thanks for playing!

[WatsonT]

71. Let's see

I said that the response women get compared to men for murdering their child is different.

That would equate to treating the genders differently.

You seem to think anyone who would say such a thing is blind.

I disagree.

[Pithlet]

74. No, I know exactly what happened here. It's pretty common.

Some reasonably intelligent people drew a pretty reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. A person who happened to be a woman committed an act that a reasonable person would conclude a person who isn't mentally stable would commit. A couple of people who likely have an axe to grind against a particular movement for equality, used an opportunity -because the person who committed said act was a woman - to espouse certain views because of said axe. Common as dirt. The same sort of argument popped up with regularity when the Andrea Yates story was in the news.

[WatsonT]

77. Point is

those same people NEVER draw the same conclusion when the converse happens.

Man murders his wife or kids: oh the wife must have been abusive.

Sounds weird doesn't it?

Yeah, this argument keeps popping up because it's legitimate.

Men and women are treated differently in this country.

Look up sentencing rates for violent male/female offenders.

They aren't the same. That is a reflection of how we view violent men versus violent women.

To get you started;
http://digitalcommons.utep.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=gang_lee&sei-redir=1#search=%22sentencing+for+parents+who+murdered+gender+differences%22

http://bjc.oxfordjournals.org/content/37/3/419.full.pdf

It's a well established and studied phenomenon. To ignore it would take . . . blinders.

[Pithlet]

78. OH really?

Show me some people who only draw that conclusion when it's women, but not men. I'll wait.

[WatsonT]

79. Ahem

I just gave you evidence of vastly different sentencing.

Here's a thought experiment: imagine some lunatic were to come on here spewing nonsense about how black americans are sentenced more harshly than white americans for the same crimes. And he were to say that this is proof that we treat blacks/whites differently in this country.

You'd show him to the door because he's obviously insane even if he has plenty of studies to back up such statements, right? Clearly we don't treat them any differently and even if we did, sentencing time hardly matters, right?

[Pithlet]

81. Were we talking about sentencing?

I'm not sure what study about some study about sentencing trends in Texas from the 70's has to do with what we're talking about here. We're talking about your contention that people only belive that women can be sympathetic characters. More specifically, I want proof of all these people who exist that are only sympathetic of women.

[WatsonT]

82. Sentencing is a reflection of how society views

certain people/crimes, don't you think?

[Pithlet]

83. It can be.

I just dont' see how it points to "No one gives a shit about men and aren't sympathetic to them"

[WatsonT]

84. Really?

You don't see how it points to a statement you just made up?

Odd, almost like you're trying to apply my data to a hypothesis I never made. Which would make sense then, why the two don't fit together.

[Pithlet]

88. Look, I'm not the one who came into a thread and accused someone of a double standard.

You did that, with an obvious agenda. Anyone who can make a claim either way that they know definitely what the motivations of that woman were has an awful lot of hubris. It's not unreasonable to speculate that that woman was not right in the head. To point at someone who says that and claim they're biased against men is patently ridiculous. I don't care what musty old studies from Texas you drag out. It's ridiculous. You can pout and claim that no one makes equally reasonable conclusions when men do it. That's equally patently ridiculous. You need to get out more, because I see it all the time.

[WatsonT]

89. I didn't point to any one person

merely pointed out the fact that this outpouring of support doesn't materialize for fathers who murder their children.

That is obvious to see.

[Pithlet]

94. No one supports murder.

What they do is acknowledge that mental illness sometimes plays a roll. Some people recognize it and may even empathize with it. But there are many who don't, and it doesn't have to do with gender. People either recognize that mental illness is a mitigating factor or they don't. The factor that plays out how much support and sympathy a person garners will be the facts of the case, not the gender. There was a hear breaking case of a mentally ill father who murdered his baby, and I guarantee if I'd posted it when I saw it it would have elicited sympathy from those who tend to empathize. It was a heartbreaking case. ETA that it's usually the unpopular position to take. Those that do tend to see things that way have a distinct POV, and aren't going to take that point of view just for one gender. That isn't logical.

[WatsonT]

96. Actually, go ahead and post it

see how many immediately start with either A) mental healthcare being denied him or B) abusive/somehow faulty wife (that one has almost never materialized in any story I've seen).

Compare that to how many unequivocally call for his death.

Then compare that ratio to the one here.

[Pithlet]

97. You just have this cartoonish view of people.

It's laughable. Yeah, there will be some who will call for his head, just like some did in this thread. But there will be some who's heart will break when he calls for his baby, with the quoes "I loved her" and "Tell me I didn't do this" Because all women who want equal rights aren't monsters. It's true! ETA look! Post 92. Someone else who says they'd have empathy for men. Hmmmmm. Could it be?

[WatsonT]

103. "Because all women who want equal rights aren't monsters."

Your strawman obsession is something you may want to get checked out.

[tallahasseedem]

60. Do you even read the shit that you write?

Spousal murder? You need to do a little research into domestic violence and the reasons behind the majority of spousal murders.

BTW, welcome to DU.

[WatsonT]

66. What are you talking about?

Murder your wife and you go to jail, likely death.

Murder your husband and Leno jokes about it and you get counseling.

Differences in sentencing between men and women for essentially the same crime is a well studied and established legal fact.

[tallahasseedem]

56. Equality for all!

:eyes:

[pipi_k]

32. If the father had done this...

perhaps we would be talking about depression, although not PPD.

People who do this shit aren't operating on all cylinders, so to speak.


I've been that depressed myself, to the point of having thoughts of doing something similar. Never acted on those thoughts, but let me tell you, I don't consider myself a monster for having those thoughts.

Anyone who has never been in that much emotional pain can't possibly know what it's like.

Really, I think it's horrible to judge someone without knowing everything that person has had to deal with.

[tallahasseedem]

54. That's exactly...

why I responded the way I did. I know many people, including myself, who have gone through this.

I don't excuse her behavior one bit, but nothing is black and white in a situation like this.

[tallahasseedem]

51. You sure are quick to talk out your ass...

that's not what I was saying at all.

[lapislzi]

85. And you are quick to judge

I was taught to wait until the facts are in before making a judgment. This is a horrific situation, and have a hunch that the woman was desperate, afraid, and without any resources at all. Just a hunch.

[northernlights]

104. to my knowledge, father's don't have enormous hormonal swings following childbirth.

The woman may have been a monster. It is equally, if not more, likely she was in severe postpartum depression. Healthy, normal people don't commit suicide and bring their children along for the ride.

[spanone]

3. just saw that, how sad

[Brickbat]

4. I hope that 10-year-old gets the help he'll need.

[SoCalDem]

28. Amen to that.. He will spend his life beating himself up over the fact

that he was unable to save his siblings:cry:

[Blue_Tires]

6. I guess she finally got the last word in the 'argument'

:wtf:

[Lefta Dissenter]

9. .

:cry::cry::cry::cry:

Not that we know the details, but I can't help but think that if mental health care were readily available to all, this tragedy might have been averted. Instead, we're reducing mental health care availability to the middle and lower class, and increasing the attached stigma.

So tragic. I hope that the 10-year-old has an incredible support system - he's going to need it. :cry:

[WatsonT]

10. Do they think it was intentional or was she just angry and not paying attention?

Looks intentional but it seems odd she'd drop one kid off if her goal was to kill all of them.

[Blue_Tires]

14. I was wondering about the ten-year-old as well...

I can only speculate that during the drive, he perceived something was very wrong and tried to change his mother's course of action... The mother, hardline in her decision, didn't want to hear her son's protest...

Playing amateur psychologist, I think parents who do this have an easier time rationalizing it when their kids don't "know" about their fate beforehand...

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WatsonT]

34. It is interesting how much sympathy the mom is recieving

when it is certain that had the father done this he would receive none.

I guess women are just incapable of being cold-blooded monsters (unlike men) so when they do this it's because they were depressed or abused or whatever.

It is rather sexist.

[Pithlet]

46. delete

Never mind

[tallahasseedem]

58. You have some serious issues with women.

I can't believe you are attacking other posters on this thread for getting the fact that postpartum could be a factor in this situation.

[Pithlet]

59. It's a common theme with the anti-feminist/men's rights movement.

Sad.

[WatsonT]

68. error, conclusion does not follow logically from data

You're making things up and attributing your words to me.

Please don't do that.

[bettyellen]

101. so we won't find you in the Women;s forum. shitting all over threads there?

[WatsonT]

102. Nope

never been.

Go look for yourself. See if the facts fit your presumptions.

[davidthegnome]

15. I have sympathy for the children

but none for the Mother. If my mom could raise me without driving me into a river, despite the variety of issues she had (and has) and was never treated for...

I don't care if she was depressed - I have suffered from PTSD for over 15 years and what she did is absolutely despicable and inexcusable.

There are alternatives, always alternatives. Seek help, go to the ER, don't put your kids in a god damn van and drive into a god damn river. Sorry, but she really is a piece of shit.

[Dappleganger]

52. With all due respect, PTSD is quite different than depression.

Please read my post below. People with severe depression cannot see their way out--they have no bootstraps to pick themselves up by.

[davidthegnome]

65. It depends on the case

PTSD varies among different people. For some of us, we do indeed suffer severe depression which is generally attributed to the initial diagnosis of PTSD. I'm not suggesting anyone pick themselves up by the bootstraps, I'm suggesting that we have a responsibility for our actions. I have suffered from severe depression as a result of PTSD - and I can tell you there was little if any difference between myself and others I knew who suffered from severe depression without PTSD.

Now what do you think happens when we put the blame for these actions on the diagnosis? I'll tell you what happens - people with mental illness, mild or severe, suffer being painted with the same broad brush. We're considered crazy, unbalanced, demented individuals who cannot be held responsible for our own actions - who couldn't possibly amount to anything in society. This is not how all see us - but if we are to blame the diagnosis in this case rather than attribute responsibility to the individual we are lumping in together a very large number of people who wouldn't even imagine doing what this woman did.

I cannot excuse what she has done and will not attribute it to depression. To do so would be to insult all those who have suffered the same and did NOT do as she did. I have known many who have suffered far beyond my own suffering, who have been and are gentle, kind people. What this woman did is cruel, despicable and inexcusable. Depression does not eliminate one's ability to think or reason. I know this, because I have suffered from it.

[Dappleganger]

98. Once again, it is not the same.

I grew up with a father who's bipolar, has PTSD so know what that's all about. It's no easy road.

What you're not accepting is the fact that people who are severely depressed DO NOT have the ability to make wise choices for themselves or anyone else.

They just can't. They can't see a hand in front of them no matter how bright the sun is shining. They can't see it. It's not a choice of theirs to make, they didn't choose to be that way.

Depression can and often DOES eliminate the ability to think or reason. Your depression sounds like a mild case and you were able to find your bootstraps. I have been around many who were not so lucky.

[FLPanhandle]

17. Who knew the old "If you kids don't stop arguing, I'm driving right off this bridge"

threat was to be taken seriously?

[rucky]

21. Susan Smith all over again.

so sad

[babydollhead]

31. "I am going to go Susan Smith" was code word for HELP

In our neighborhood, we decided if she had just had someone take the kids for a little bit, she might not have drowned them. What about Andrea Yates? Mothers need support.

[lapislzi]

39. I have used that phrase in my journal

My then-husband used that journal to try to take my daughter away from me because I expressed (private) empathy for Smith's plight. Fortunately, he failed.

Thanks for sharing your story, BDH.

[babydollhead]

93. I'm glad you kept your kids.

Part of not going Susan Smith on my kids, was being able to say it out loud and other moms would understand, or I would for them.

I called my husband a few times at work and said, this is it, I am going to kill them and kill myself, and he would come right home and help. (I had 3 kids in under 4 years, now they're big) I had to be extreme in my descriptions to him, he's from the a very lazy and understated family, there could be flames shooting out of the kids heads from a fever and he would doubt it. It was how I expressed my state of mind, to a normal person, I would have just said, "I'm overwhelmed. Help" I am not the easiest person to live with besides.

[tallahasseedem]

61. I don't know about that...

Susan Smith killed her kids so she could be with her boyfriend. It doesn't look as though this is the case in this situation.

[Pithlet]

64. I agree. I think Susan Smith was just a straight up cold blooded killer.

She didn't even seem to have any remorse.

[lapislzi]

40. 25 years old with 4 kids.

Had the first one when she was 15. Still a child herself.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20110413/NEWS/110413006/Boy-10-escapes-mother-3-kids-drown-Newburgh?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

This is truly horrible, and a failure of everything our society should stand for.

[malaise]

43. It's a horrific story

I agree - society has failed

[uppityperson]

50. She was 14 when she got pregnant the first time? What an all around tragic tale.

[malaise]

75. I don't understand the fighting

This is just a horrific tragedy.

[Dappleganger]

48. What a tragedy! People who place sole blame on mom need to look at these things...

Young mother who began having babies when she was still a kid.
Four children (I had 4 in less than 6 years, it can be overwhelming!).
One child was 11 months, she could have been suffering from post-partum depression.
Domestic abuse by the children's father (maybe she kept having babies to keep him, we don't know).
An act of despair which shows me that she believed that there was no escape from the father (otherwise she could have just run away). She was truly desperate.
It looks as if she believed the children were in danger from him and in a way, tried to 'save' them by drowning them as well.

We just don't know the depths of despair wrt her situation or her mental state--we ALL know that moms drowning kids is against most mother's nature (something is seriously broken).

I have been involved in a horrible situation where a mom took her own life, yet made arrangements for the children believing in her mind that the father wouldn't get custody. Well he did (it was a sexual abuse case against the girls). This was a dear friend who was completely at her wit's end because one judge believed her above her husband. She saw no way out (she was seriously depressed) for them or herself, other than taking her own life and leaving handwritten wills that the girls would go to someone in her family to get away from their father.

The lesson here is that depression and desperate acts like this show a mind which cannot see reality, so decisions they make for themselves and others can bring serious harm while they believe they are doing the right thing.

[tallahasseedem]

62. It truly is sad...

:(

[H2O Man]

63. I agree.

Perhaps it would be beneficial not to try to identify "blame" in a situation such as this. Attention to the dynamics, without the application of "blame," might go further in preventing similar cases.

[AngryAmish]

73. I blame Bush.

[Kadie]

72. .

:cry:

[Modern_Matthew]

91. Sad story. The overanalyzing is unneccessary. nt

[seabeyond]

92. i dont know much about this one. there are stories i have empathy for mother, and there are stories

i have no empathy at all for the mother.

there have been stories i have empathy for the father. there is one story of a father, who lost his job, always had a wonderful relationship with his young son, history shows a good father and he killed son and tried to kill self. i have HUGE empathy for that man. that story haunts me. and there are stories i have no empathy for the father.

each story is unique. each pain its own. and always

i am so so so sad for the children that die.

i dont see it as a gender thing

i see it as a health issue