Why was the quality of American-made cars so bad in the 70's and 80's?

[Rage for Order]

When I was growing up my parents, aunts, uncles, and grandparents all had American-made cars, as did almost all of my friends' families. The brands ran the spectrum, too: Dodge, Ford, Cadillac, Chevy, Chrysler, Plymouth, so I'm not talking about only one manufacturer. We had a 1974 Dodge Coronet station wagon (the lead sled) that would stall every time we stopped when it was cold outside. My mom would pop the hood and my brother would have to use a screwdriver to hold the flaps of the carburetor open to get the car started again. Talk about embarrassing!

We also had a Plymouth station wagon, a K-car (remember those?), in the mid-80's. It was one of the worst pieces of crap I've ever driven. We had a 1976(?) Ford Mustang; the engine blew when it was 10 or 11 years old. Then there was the 1974 Ford Maverick, the 1981 Dodge Diplomat, the 1986 Caprice Classic...at any rate, the one thing all of these cars had in common was they were crap, whether they were old or new (well, near-new; we never had a brand new car).

That brings me back to my original question: why were American-made cars so bad? Was it the fault of incompetent engineers? Did the auto workers get fat, happy and complacent? Why was there seemingly so little attention paid to the quality of the product?

:shrug:

[aSpeckofDust]

1. If I had to make a wild guess, I'd say corners were cut to maximize profit. late 70's/80's had..

a very big push for the corporate method/consultant craze. First thing to go when trying to reach the most profit possible is quality. Again, wild guess.

[Art_from_Ark]

56. The profit motive was indeed there

That's one reason why they nearly completely abandoned the production of compact cars during that era-- "not enough profit".

[RegieRocker]

92. Fact. They went from american made parts to mexico parts. Cheaper

but with far inferior quality. You were correct.

[MedicalAdmin]

110. Good to know that part of the history.

thanks.

[RKP5637]

2. Profit over quality and reliability. I watched a program on this quite awhile ago. The auto

engineers from back then said there was basically no interest in "real" quality and reliability, justing getting something out that would sell and make a profit. The cars just were not engineered for long term quality and reliability. I can certainly attest to that having owned several of them back then.

[yurbud]

119. a precursor to the modern MBA mindset: instead of making profits by selling the best product

they sold the crappiest product they could get away with, figuring they had a captive ''buy American'' audience.

I remember riding in those Dodges that stalled, and in the cramped (even for an eight year old kid) backseats of Ford Pintos and Chevy Vegas.

That short term profit mindset cost them at least a generation or two of potential customers.

The Chevy Volt is the first American made car I actually wished I could afford to buy, but I don't know if other people my age will even give them that much of a break.

[bullwinkle428]

3. Read about the work of W. Edwards Deming - it pretty much explains it all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

[Rage for Order]

7. I'm well acquainted with Deming

The US manufacturers, both management and labor, did almost the exact opposite of everything he espoused.

[coalition_unwilling]

111. Um, not to sound too partisan here, but what exactly would you (or

Deming) have had 'labor' do? They worked after having reached collective bargaining agreements but it was management that gave the directions and monitored the top- and bottom lines.

I really blame graduate schools of business for graduating bean counters who migrated into management and couldn't manage their ways out of paper bags.

[Old and In the Way]

140. I agree...the MBA types that traditionally went into finance started showing up in manufacturing.

One area that helped kill manufacturing was ROI for things like tooling and updated manufacturing processes. Everything became framed in ROSV - return on shareholder value. Shareholders demanding better returns in shorter timeframes. Instead of 5 years to pay back tools and lower product costs, they started pushing 18 month/2 year paybacks. Paybacks became impossible to justify. But other countries would have no problems subsidizing those investments for their companies in return for the jobs they'd bring, so this helped justify the move to outsource....along with cheaper labor rates, of course.

[RKP5637]

9. Very interesting and a nice person too! Business and Gov. could well learn from

his teachings/writings today.

[Mojeoux]

21. Very cool to cite Demming.

His work was one thing I would not of learned if I had gone to University when the rest of my age group (boomer)attended.

In Detroit, stopping the line was unheard-of! In Japan, it became company policy to REWARD people who stopped the line and fixed an ongoing problem. Instead of loyalty to the individual departments, loyalty to absolute quality became the paradigm.





(edited to add a missing "r")

:kick:

[Old and In the Way]

32. Production incentives in the 70's were focused on units output.

Production workers had a base salary and a variable component of their pay based on how many units they turned out over a standard expected rate. Not necessarily good units....that was someone else's problem downstream.

[Mojeoux]

55. Demming got folks in section J to communicate with folks back in section B

for example.
One of his points was how ideas by the people who actually work the line were to be valued and rewarded. In the old school, it was "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The Demming process takes into account that when an employee used their own time and intelligence to make a suggestion, it's the way a company will grow. Even if the idea isn't used this person is what a company needs. He also points out that people who's ideas are de-valued, will become numb as regards to improvement, and leave early on Fridays and miss a lot of Mondays. Or they become a competitor's bright new idea person.

[MedicalAdmin]

112. I've had jobs where the boss didn't want to here about it.

Those we J O B's Punch in and punch out and fuck everything else. They don't care and so I don't care. Fuck em.

I've also worked at places where every suggestion is taken seriously and valued. Those companies grew and were great places to work. They had very low turnover and high loyalty and paid their employees very well. They cared and so I did. When I saw something off the job that I thought was kinda applicable I took the time to learn about it so I could bring that new idea into the company. Beleive it or not this company was an oil company. The loaned the money to several governments to finance infrastructure projects and, in essense, own them. They once bought an entire truck company so that they could take care of a supply issue (don't want to service our rigs quickly, OK. We bought the company - now will you schedule our trucks?).

Now that I am a boss I follow the latter model as much as possible. Good management pays off. Bad management pays itself.

[Mojeoux]

123. IMHO Demming proved you make more money with honey

An appreciative attitude to the worker makes more money.

The old ways would say, all employees are sneaky and lazy and just have to be told what to do. Nobody is proud to work for, a company run by pricks.

That is great that you've perceived this truth and are applying it at your management level.

[ItNerd4life]

103. It seems few people here on DU have heard of him.

Based upon their responses to the OP. I loved ready about Deming in the 80's.

[tridim]

4. I don't think it's just American cars, most cars of that era sucked.

Except maybe Honda and Toyota.

70's cars weren't rust-proofed.

[RKP5637]

5. Yep, they rusted out all over the place. Real rust buckets.

[madokie]

20. I had a 78 mercury cougar that would run a hole in the wind

when it finally bit the dust a couple years ago, many years after I sold it to some friends it had close to 300 thousand miles on it. Motor and drive train was still strong but one of the rear radius arms broke and they decided to junk it rather than spend any money on it. I got my moneys worth out of it and so did they. Like I said it would run a hole in the wind it was so strong. It got pretty respectable fuel mileage too, if driven right it got close to 20 mpg but if you crowded it it would drop a couple mpg's and thats how I drove it mostly, balls to the wall. It still looked as good as new when it finally went to the crusher though, no rust or dents and original paint and interior.

[Old and In the Way]

33. The original Honda Accord was an engineering marvel.

I had a buddy who bought one in the first model year. It was an amazing car for it's price - IIRC, I think it was a little over $2000, brand new. Superior fits and finish. The handling and the ride were incredible. Unbelievably cheap, too. Engine was so quiet, you couldn't hear it running. And the gas mileage was phenomenal for that period of time (when no one was really complaining about the price of gas). I credit Honda for really shaking up the automotive consciousness in the US. Toyota and Datsun...not so much.

[tridim]

36. Yea, I had an 8 year old 79 Accord. Loved it.

I think it was still first generation in 79.

[MedicalAdmin]

113. I agree - pound for pound the best engineered car of it's time.

I must admit to having a 5 year old ford focus and it is one of the best cars I have ever owned (for a compact) with good milage, handling and options. Now I also used to own a SAAB 900 and that was one very well engineered pocket rocket. And I could stuff a 5 drawer file cabinet in the back without any fuss.

[hifiguy]

65. For sure.

You could almost sit and LISTEN to cars from that era rust away. Now days you hardly ever see a rusty car, even old ones here in Minnesota, the rust capital of the US.

[MedicalAdmin]

114. When I moved to MN from OR my previously rust free

mid 80's toyota diesel truck rusted to pieces. You can literally see through the box from one side to the other. Yikes.

Salting roads is a dumb idea.

[Brigid]

6. Fat, lazy, and incompetent auto company execs is more like it.

They had no idea how to deal with the competition of foreign cars at that time. They seemed to think that Americans were somehow required to buy american cars, no matter how crappy they were. When Detroit first tried to make smaller cars, they did so without understanding that quality also had to be apart of the equation; hence cars like the Pinto and the Vega.

[quaker bill]

8. Because we bought them

Only when we stopped buying them, bought toyotas and hondas, and the big three started needing bailouts, did the cars improve.

Businesses, kinda like most people, only truly dig hard to improve when they have to. If the sailing is smooth and profits are large, you don't change things. This is why tax cuts do nothing for the economy, same psychology. When business is good and profits are large, you do not take risks.

Risk takers are not those who already have money and are enjoying it. They are those who don't have money, but would like to try it.

[Brigid]

11. Winner over here! Winner over here!

What more really needs to be said?

[Gidney N Cloyd]

10. I often think these days that it's been years & years since I've seen a rust bucket on the road.

That's been the most startling thing about the improvement in cars over the last couple decades.

[MedicalAdmin]

115. Plastic doesn' rust.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

126. My Saturn's plastic butmost cars are metal. I'm really thinking of how cars got pockmarked all over

http://www.news.wisc.edu/16221
Rust used to be one of the great banes of car ownership. And because road salt accelerates rusting, the problem was especially severe in places like Wisconsin, where the roads are salted in winter. Many cars rusted to pieces long before they failed mechanically.

Statistics from 1995 pegged the overall price of corrosion at $300 billion per year, says Jay Samuel, a senior lecturer in the UW-Madison department of mechanical engineering. Over the past 25 years, he adds, "a lot of industries have improved, but the auto industry has done the best" in fighting corrosion.

The overall improvement reflects many individual changes, he adds, including better coatings -- mainly paint -- and more use of galvanized steel, which is coated with rust-resistant zinc on both sides.

Vehicles have also been redesigned without pockets for mud to gather, and rust-prone seams were removed. Metal has been replaced with rustproof plastic, especially at the rust-prone rocker panels below the doors. The removal of stainless steel and chrome-plated trim has cut galvanic corrosion, which occurs when different metals that touch each other generate a small electric current.

[SheilaT]

12. I think it's because the men responsible

for the making of those cars got brand new ones every single year. So reliability beyond the first year was a matter of utter indifference to them. And even non car company executives typically bought a new car every two or three years well into the 1970's. The idea that a car might need to last longer, that not everyone could afford a new one so frequently, just didn't matter to them.

Gas wasn't too expensive back then, and those men were more than rich enough to afford to buy all theyg as they wanted.

[ejbrush]

13. Bean counting.

I'm pretty sure it was the bean counters that set out to nickle and dime every car built. Funny thing though, my memories and impressions are that the pickup trucks put out by the big 3 during the 70's and 80's were across the board rugged and dependable vehicles. 'Course, this was back when a pickup was still more of a motorized farm wagon than some suburban status symbol. My family drove Fords, our neigbors drove Chevys. Lot's of back and forth about which truck was better, but both were essentially the same and on the whole did exactly what they were intended to do - work. A bench seat, an 8' box, 2wd and wing windows on the front of the doors. There wasn't anything to go wrong.

Right now, I'd take my old '81 F-150 back in a heartbeat, if the rust-cancer hadn't gotten it (it's inevitable in Wisconsin). A 300" six, three on the tree, AM radio with push-button presets. Until the day I drove it to the scrap yard that truck got 17 miles to the gallon, which was pretty good back then, and for a truck still is decent. That engine is probably in another truck to this day.

Then, Garth Brooks came along and single handedly ruined country music and pickup trucks. The truck I inheireted two years ago and drive today has *carpeting* on the floor for heaven's sake. If I weren't so broke from subsidizing the oligarchy...

[Rage for Order]

15. I have to agree with you there

Pickup trucks seemed to be the only vehicles that were built to last. It's interesting for me to think back on it now, but there was only one family I knew who had a truck. They certainly were durable, but they weren't designed with a smooth ride in mind. I remember bouncing all over the place on the bench seat whenever I rode in a truck; it was fun at the time, but I'm sure it would have gotten old quickly on a road trip of any substantial distance. The real fun was riding in the bed of the truck!

[demodonkey]

31. Hey our '76 chevy farm truck is still running strong.

My dad bought it new for around $5000. That's right, $5K not $50K. It has a little over 200,000 miles. A bench seat, an 8' box, 2wd and wing windows on the front of the doors.

I love Big Red and will never sell it or junk it.

[JuniperLea]

87. We were a three '77 Chevy pickup family at one time...

My ex and both sons had one... all still running.

[demodonkey]

130. Round headlights... ;-) nt

[MedicalAdmin]

116. Carpeting in a truck. *picks up jaw from floor*

That shit ain't right.

[atomic-fly]

14. read this book...not sure it answers all, but good read

http://www.amazon.com/Rivethead-Tales-Assembly-Ben-Hamper/dp/0446394009

[Exilednight]

16. A lot of it had to do with technology. Most of the technology that was

being used in the US was from pre-WWII, or built during the war. Japan was fully rebuilt after WWII and much of their technology was more advanced. The US closed the gap in the 90s.

The other reason is how they physically build the cars. NPR ran a great story on this subject last summer. The US auto makers were all about how many cars they could pump out, no matter the quality.

On the flip side, Japan was worried about quality over quantity.

[reformist2]

17. Complacent execs and, yes, union workers.

[Ganja Ninja]

101. Bullshit.

Union workers had no control over what came off the factory floor.

[JVS]

18. It was a universal problem in the 1970s. The book "Lemons" noted this. UK cars were terrible...

and even the vaunted German carmakers had some serious problems. Pollution restrictions, efficiency concerns, the switch from body on frame to unibody construction, the emergence of front wheel drive as the norm, and the reversal of the decades long trend of making cars bigger and bigger were hard adjustments.


Most of the complaints in your OP can be seen as a result of the adjustment to pollution regulations and attempts to increase efficiency in the wake of the gas crises. Efficiency required smaller engines, early anti-pollution adjustments also tended to sap the power of engines to which they were applied. So in the 1970s we have a number of carbodies designed for higher output engines than are available, and engines that still in the process of being designed according to regulations. The K-cars were actually an improvement because finally you had a car that was lighter, had its engines in order, and had a good front wheel drive system

[Oasis_]

22. Also

Planned obsolescence had a huge (negative) impact on quality. Auto execs firmly believed that people would buy American no matter what, and that improvements really weren't necessary.

[JVS]

27. Yeah, but like I was saying it wasn't just the US that was having problems.

Volkswagen had a hell of a time getting their concept of a FWD replacement for the beetle correct. The Dasher had a lot of problems in development. British cars were circling the toilet. Japanese cars didn't show a decline in quality, mostly because their earlier cars had been incredibly cheap and spartan, but even in the late 1970s rust was still a major issue (NHTSA recalled the first generation civic on account of this).

[jberryhill]

97. How else is a kid supposed to learn how to use pop rivets and Bondo?

[Rage for Order]

23. I didn't know anyone with a car from Europe either

I didn't realize they had similar problems across the pond. I remember Japanese cars began to make serious inroads in America around the late 1970's, and their quality proved to be far superior to anything the US automakers were producing. As a result the US cars got a (deserved) reputation for terrible quality and had to play catch up to the Japanese for the next 25 - 30 years. Brand reputations are similar to personal reputations in that way - once it goes bad it takes a long time and a lot of work to rebuild it.

[jberryhill]

98. There were some NASTY Fiats

Fiat - Fix It Again, Tony.

[MedicalAdmin]

120. The Ford Pinto

The origin of the saying Fix Or Repair Daily. I learned a lot about fixing cars from that old family pinto. Yikes. I liked dads other car.

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. I had to learn how drive on a piece of shit Ford PINTO 3 on the column!!!! OMG

what another crap car. My mom had a RAMBLER Station Wagon that I had to drive on occasion....while smoke poured out of the engine for whatever freakin' reason. 1970s...BOTH of those cars and BOTH were JUNK. PURE junk.

[Canuckistanian]

26. "Three on the tree" we called it

I remember learning to drive on a gawdawful long stretch Dodge Van. I think I could remember how to drive it in two seconds today.

[Codeine]

89. Tree shifting was fucking insane.

My mom about had an aneurysm dealing with our column-shift Pinto. Lime green. Lord what an awful car that was.

[Canuckistanian]

24. And don't forget American Motors

They churned out the crappiest cars of the 70s and 80s. The Pacer, The Gremlin, The Javelin, the Ambassador.... I remember hearing horror stories about ALL of them.

Not exactly landmark vehicles.

[in_cog_ni_to]

29. YUP...that's who made the piece of junk Rambler Station Wagon.

Bad, bad cars.

[Old and In the Way]

37. Yeah, I think the Gremlin was well named. It was awful looking and

the only person I know who had one, was always having the car fixed. I think he sold it after a 1-1/2 years of problem after problem.

The Javelin AMX, though, was another beast altogether...a pretty cool hi-performance vehicle.

[jberryhill]

81. I still want a Javelin /nt

[tilsammans]

133. And I want my old Javelin back!

My first car. :loveya:

[MedicalAdmin]

122. I had never even heard of those cars.

What a great looking car.

[Spike89]

128. I had a 69 Javelin AMX, loved the car, but

I had the 360 V-8 engine that had some incredible engineering flaws. I blew the head gaskets (not racing, I had a pretty light foot). A neighbor who operated his mechanics shop from his garage let me work on the engine at his place. He went ballistic when I kept busting sockets on the head bolts--the specs were for nearly 130 lbs torque and each head had more than 2 dozen bolts! We looked it up and the closest we could find was a high performance GM engine for Cadillac' with a dozen or so bolts and ~110 lbs. of torque required. Most engines seemed to have ~6 bolts per head and torque around 90 lbs. It was pretty obvious the AMC guys had a problem with the heads in the 360 engine, but rather than fix the design, they threw on some ridiculous band-aids.

Aside from that, the car was a dream to drive, looked cool, and caused me no other problems. Eventually my youngest brother ended up with it--he eventually left it on the side of the road in Colorado when it overheated once. For all I know, it is still running somewhere.

[doc03]

48. I had an 1980 AMC Eagle, it was a good car. The first American

car with all wheel drive, I think it was the best vehicle in snow I ever had. It also had a 5 year no rust through warranty. That was back when other cars rusted through in less than 2 years. I think it was the first car that used all galvanized sheet metal.

[blondeatlast]

61. My first car was a used Pacer, God help me. nt

[jberryhill]

80. Hey.. James Bond drove a Javelin in Man With The Golden Gun

Me? I drove a Hornet.

They were okay cars until all of the knobs fell off of everything that has knobs.

[MedicalAdmin]

121. If by landmark you mean good, then I agree.

If by landmark you mean broken down and sitting somewhere, then I have to disagree. They were landmarks.

[tilsammans]

131. Uh, hello? I had a Javelin, and . . .

. . . it was one helluva fast car! Quirky, but no "horror stories."

Me 'n' my Jav, we OWNED the Garden State Parkway!

[Deep13]

25. A few reasons, I think.

One was that Detroit had no real competition. Another is that automotive technology is just so much better now than it was back then. Even with the crappy quality of '70s cars, which only got worse in the '80s, there were a few bright spots. I think my favorite car of all time is the 1971 Dodge Dart.

[Old and In the Way]

28. Lets not forget the Chevy Vega!

My folks had one of those and it was underpowered and not particularly good at handling. Winter conditions made driving interesting.

Not all cars were bad back then. The higher performance vehicles were pretty decent...the Roadrunners, GTO's, SS 396/350 Chevies, were bad...in a good way. But some of the key industry problem drivers, to me, back then were-

(1) Marketing/building cars that were profitable, regardless of what the consumer wanted. People generally who weren't particularly educated about the products to begin with. Advertising campaigns that sold more on emotion than technical merit.
(2) Design Engineering was more of a hit or miss exercise. Nothing like today's engineering capabilities to do failure mode effects analysis (FMEA) where designs can be tested on computer and predict if components will fail under normal conditions. Back then, DE screw ups were resolved on the manufacturing floor and, in many cases, inferior components were used because there was no quick option to redesign or modify. Today, these same CAD workstations export the data directly to CNC machining centers to make the production tools (moulds, stamping tools, etc) which replicate the designer intent exactly without introducing human error into this critical aspect of the manufacturing process. That makes fits and finishes better and component interactions more consistent and reliable.
(3) Quality systems. I worked in both QC and production departments in the 70's at a automotive OEM/aftermarkets plant. Among other things, we made shock absorbers. We had a few circular production lines consisting of about 30 manufacturing cells where the shocks went from station to station on a carousel type line that ran at a set speed. While each station had an emergency stop, you quickly learned that you didn't shut the line down because when you did, everyone in the cell would lose bideau(?) - a financial performance target based on quantity output. So, if you missed a washer or O-Ring...no biggie, hopefully someone down the line might pull it off the line. These production lines could produce 20,000 shocks a shift, 3 shifts a day. By the time QC got around to checking finished goods, it was not uncommon to see 1-2 weeks worth of production get tagged for 100% inspection and potential scrap. The rework area was 3X the space of the manufacturing area! QC had an adversarial relationship with manufacturing - they justified their existence by finding problems and manufacturing spent a lot of time hiding them. The QC role back then was to inspect quality into the product. I saw lots of confrontations, even fistfights break out between inspectors and production workers. I knew production guys who would submit the same samples to QC inspection multiple times for in-process approval. I've seen a QC manager make life miserable for a production foreman simple because he was dating the guy's ex-wife.

When production took back ownership of product quality, that was a fundamental change in the mass production mindset...for the better. Turns out producing quality products is cheaper, too.

[Rage for Order]

40. Interesting perspective, thank you

Speaking of quality systems (or lack thereof), was there ever a worse system than the AC/Delco cassette tape players installed in GM vehicles during the 80's & early 90's? I always wondered how something could be so bad for so long and yet still be installed in millions of cars a year. I remember wondering if any of the GM managers ever tried to play a cassette tape in their own GM cars. Horrendously bad.

[Old and In the Way]

109. I think Delco was a product marketing division of GM.

In any case, I'm sure it was captive business. They offered limited options and had no competition for this business. They probably incentivized dealers to add them in - cheaply made products that they could get a premium price on. Probably no coincidence that aftermarket options like Audiovox and Panasonic began selling well around this time.

[kwassa]

138. Delco was the parts division of GM.

starting out as electronics and then merging with the warehouse parts division in 1984.

My dad worked for a parts division that later became part of Delco.

[Warpy]

30. The decisions that made them so awful were made at the top

by men who thought small meant cheap and throwaway. While Europe and Asia were building economical cars that were solid and lasted for years, Detroit rushed cheaper cars to market in the hope that underpricing them would grab back the market share they'd been steadily losing for years.

Instead, it cost them their reputation as Vegas rusted on the showroom floor then ate their engines and Pintos had the unfortunate habit of exploding on rear impact and incinerating the passengers. All of them were tinny and cheap, low quality vehicles.

In addition, Detroit had been slow to modernize, preferring to milk companies like cash cows instead of reinvesting in them in state of the art robotics, something foreign makers had been doing all along.

Workers were demoralized by turning out what they knew to be absolute shit and likely didn't give the job their very best, although 99% were conscientious enough to put in good work for their paychecks.

In short, Detroit produced garbage because they forgot they were in the business of making cars and only focused on making large profit.

[hunter]

34. Chevy Vega...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Vega

The original television commercials were so bad GM now sends hit men after anyone who posts them on the internet.

"Oh the yanks designed it, the yanks refined it..." sung by ExtenZe smiling-bob prancing about in a WWI doughboy uniform.

Seriously.

All for a car that rusted out in the first rain and started burning a quart of oil per tank of gas a year after you bought it.

[JVS]

35. Whoa! Their ad had them saying "Bullshit"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V5dL6jZlm4&feature=related

[Canuckistanian]

39. Wow, she DID say bullshit

Did this actually air?

[hunter]

42. Can you find the doughboy ad?

And will your edit last if you post it on wikipedia?

No.

This is your American car after management has blown it all on hookers and cocaine.

[Codeine]

91. Holy crap! You're not kidding!

:wow: That couldn't have been for general broadcast.

[Old and In the Way]

38. It had an aluminum block engine. We had the engine replaced when

it warped...IIRC, they had to retrofit the engines with cast iron sleeves.

[snooper2]

69. That car was pretty good after dropping a 327 in it and a ford 9 bolt rear

[flvegan]

41. To me, they stopped building cars and started building transport.

The passion and personality was gone. Strangled by emission rules and a gas crisis or two, they built rustbuckets on 4 wheels. Building to a lowest common denominator is never a good idea. And in all fairness, everything built in the 70's and early 80's was crap. No matter who built it. Well except Porsche. And Lamborghini. Oh, wait...most Mercedes built during that time are still bulletproof to this day. Okay, anything not stupidly expensive at the time was crap.

My dad was an absolute car snob/nut gearhead just like me. My mom had Mustangs and MGs in the 60's. It's in the blood. She still got a Honda Civic CVCC because American cars were so horrible in the 70's that buying anything from the US companies was just a stupid idea. Unfortunately that buyer's remorse lived longer than it should have. I count 1985 as the year that Ford started taking pride in what they built again. 1986 for GM. Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth has been dead to me for so long, they can never get me back. The K Car and then the Minivan? No thanks.

Thankfully, GM and Ford are back. They haven't built anything for me to buy...yet. What they make that I love and want, I can't afford or isn't available here. But, in due time, I know you'll see me at the wheel of an American car one day. And I can't wait.

[Rage for Order]

43. My family is split

I drive a late-model Chevy Impala and she drives an Acura. I like my Chevy, bland though it may be. The ride is smooth if you can ignore the whining sound the engine makes; it seems to come standard on all Chevy models from the mid-to-late 2000's. My friend's Trailblazer makes the same exact noise. Also, it gets great gas mileage on the interstate for a family sedan; about 31 mpg at 75mph, and about 21 mpg in city driving.

[ellenfl]

44. planned obsolesence . . . american goods were made to not last so

we would have to replace them sooner. that's how toyota grabbed such a big piece of the car pie . . they made a quality product. we lost our way and became too greedy. correction . . . they (the bosses) lost their way and became too greedy . . . and the male of our species went for the flashy stuff. boys and their toys, ya know.

ellen fl

[Rage for Order]

47. I'm curious to see if the same thing is going to happen in NASCAR

Now that NASCAR has allowed foreign manufacturers to enter their cars into the races. What happens if Toyota or Honda starts wiping the floor with them?

[MedicalAdmin]

124. Nascar has nothing to do with cars.

It is all about the engineering. Every part is custom made. It's about as stock as a cow with wheels.

[jakefrep]

137. Won't happen.

NASCAR has basically neutered the automakers. Anymore, the car bodies, chassis, and engines are virtually identical among all the different automakers. Not much difference besides a few identifying trim pieces on the cars.

NASCAR is much more of an advertising medium than a serious autmotive proving ground. I'm honestly surprised Toyota's wasting their money there.

[live love laugh]

45. The auto makers rejected Deming's Quality Movement. Japan benefitted as did we

b/c Japan raised the bar through the implementation of Deming's principles.

[Dawson Leery]

46. There was this shameless piece of trash from Cadillac

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Cimarron

which in reality is



I am not saying it was a bad car, my father drove one of these



Come on now! The attempt to pass off a "j-car" as a luxury car was shameless.

As a result Mercedes and BMW offer a similar style of car, the "C-Class" and "3-Series" respectively.
Alot of money for a label.

[Rage for Order]

49. Don't forget the Cadillac Cimarron

Nothing says luxury like one of these babies

[Rage for Order]

51. And, of course, the Cadillac Catera

When you're selling these as "luxury" cars your brand is lost

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. If they sucked so bad, then why do some sell for $100k+ today?

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/lotdetails.aspx?ln=73&aid=363&pop=0
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/lotdetails.aspx?ln=63&aid=363&pop=0
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/lotdetails.aspx?ln=359.2&aid=363&pop=0
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/lotdetails.aspx?ln=351.1&aid=363&pop=0

Show me a comparable japanese import of this vintage which sells for anything close.

Even the lowly Maverick sells for more than its price new.

Quality did decline in the mid 70s because various external forces (including regulations from the brand new EPA and the fuel crisis) required manufacturers to reinvent how cars were built.

Also, instead of engineers designing cars, you had accountants doing it.

[flvegan]

53. (facepalm)

Oh the fail.

Really? You're gonna pick and choose from Barrett Jackson's auctions? Yes, pristine original/restored high-demand cars from ANY era will demand top dollar. Especially with rare options and builds. And really, a ground-up restoration on a Maverick probably cost MORE than the $15k asking price.

ZOMG! I've got an 1971 LS6 Corvette, original numbers...look what it's worth! Proves you wrong. Whatever. :eyes:

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Don't forget, it was the EPA's fault, too. Those damn enviro-tree huggers with their 'regulations'.

Anything, anything, ANYTHING!!!!!!! except an acknowledgment that the cars were crappy lemons.


Reminds me of Bush being unable to admit he was ever wrong.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. Were it not for the pressure from the beancounters

the engineers could have adapted to the new regulations.

But to say that the new smog regulations didn't complicate engineering is false.

Good, cheap, fast. Pick any two.

Engineers were told to fundamentally redesign cars so that they were cheap, easy on gas and smog free. And we need it now.

[lumberjack_jeff]

83. Fine.

Find me a pristine/original/restored 70's honda/datsun/toyota which is demanding top dollar.

Oh, by "ANY" you mean "ANY american car".

The truth is that DESPITE (or perhaps because of) their rarity, 70's japanese cars demand bottom dollar. 99% of them have simply rusted away as the appliances they are.

[Spider Jerusalem]

54. Performance models were never built in large numbers to begin with

how many Mustand Mach I's or Hemi Cudas rolled off the assembly lines? And how many are left today of those? They're collectable because they're comparatively rare, especially in restored condition, and because they're performance vehicles that were never built in mass quantitues anyway. And the Maverick doesn't sell for more than its price new; list price in 1972 started at $1995 (which is over $10k in current dollars, inflation-adjusted).

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. How many toyota cressidas rolled off the assembly line?

In 1977 they sold 2500 of them. Doesn't that qualify as "comparatively rare"?

And how many are left today? I daresay there are probably more hemi cudas.

[EOTE]

60. What do all those vehicles have in common?

Not a single one of them is FWD. Unfortunately, a lot of people owned the new FWD vehicles that the Big Three were making at the time, and the difference in quality was quite palpable. I guarantee you're not going to see any K Cars being sold at Barrett-Jackson, at least not for a decent sum. IMO, it was the switch to FWD that really made the quality of American cars decline during that time period.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. Besides the fact that they're american?

Plenty of RWD japanese cars of that vintage. Don't see 'em at the auction.

Yes, like the vega aluminum engine, small fwd coupes were a risky innovation driven by beancounters. Between pressure from accountants and regulations, demands on engineers outran their learning curve.

[EOTE]

67. I understand that the Japanese RWD vehicles of the time are in far less demand.

I'm a huge fan of the American made muscle/pony cars of the time. I'm just saying that the mass move to FWD was a big mistake and is most likely what has caused the negative association of American made cars of the 70s and 80s. It's a rarity that you'll see a FWD vehicle at Barrett Jackson going for a princely sum unless it's an immaculate '66 Toronado or an old school Packard. The Big Three have always done RWD well. I'm extremely pleased that we're finally beginning to see more RWD cars from them.

[NoGOPZone]

78. No denying that the switch to FWD was executed horribly

and certainly contributed to the poor reputation of domestics from the era in question, but I don't know if it caused, as in originated, this rep. Unless I remember incorrectly, the transition to FWD gained real momentum in the early eighties with the introduction of vehicles like the K-cars and GM's X-body series. By that time the reputation of domestics had already been harmed by seventies models like the Vega, Aspen and Pinto. There were other disasters from the early eighties, like the Olds Diesel engine, that did further damage. A lot going wrong back then.

[EOTE]

84. Yeah, I'd say the energy crises in general were largely to blame.

As you mentioned, the Olds Diesel engine was a bit of a fiasco, never being designed from the ground up as a Diesel. You also mention the Vega, which GM wanted to be a high-revving, 4 cylinder Camaro. The demand for a small, sporty car was certainly brought about by the increase in oil prices. All these mistakes can be traced to moving toward efficiency way too quickly and without a real thought about plan regarding the transition. I'm of the opinion that the 80s were a far worse decade for American cars than the 70s. I'd take a Vega over a Chevette any day.

[blondeatlast]

64. Why aren't there Japanese cars in BJ auctions? Because an enormous

amount of them are still being driven.

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. Search craigslist for "1971" cars

You'll find that less than 25% of them are imports, less than half of which are Japanese... Datsun or Toyota pickups.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/search/cta?query=1971&srchType=T&minAsk=&maxAsk=

Do the same for 1978.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/search/cta?query=1978&srchType=T&minAsk=&maxAsk=

Only four of the first 100 hits were Japanese.

No, they're not still being driven.

Maybe 2 or 3 percent of the 70's vintage cars still being driven are japanese.

[EOTE]

85. Do you really see a lot of 70's Japanese cars around?

I sure as heck don't. I see the occasional 70's Z-car, but unless they've been meticulously maintained or from the sun belt, they're generally all rusted out. It's extremely rare to see any Japanese cars from the 70s in good condition.

[Odin2005]

52. The global auto industry was decadent in the 70s, it wasn't just US cars.

Britain's auto sector pretty much collapsed.

[EOTE]

59. I haven't had a chance to read all the replies, but here's how I understand it.

With the oil crises of the 70's, the Japanese got a big hold in the U.S. market as they had been creating a number of tiny and efficient front wheel drive vehicles for a long time. America had extremely little experience in terms of both creating front wheel drive vehicles and small vehicles in general. But, seeing as that was what was in demand, that's what they produced. Many of the initial models were basically beta tests where the general public were the testers. I believe GM even created a number of diesels by simply replacing the cylinder heads of standard ICEs, rather than designing them from the ground up. Basically, the Big Three got caught woefully unprepared and had to spend a good amount of time playing catch up.

In my opinion, the American auto industry made a big mistake by being so quick to convert the great bulk of their lineups to front wheel drive. IMO, front wheel drive makes a car far more complicated and does nothing to improve driving dynamics, in fact, FWD creates a number of new plagues that RWD never experiences. There's a reason why BMW and Mercedes don't do FWD vehicles (and I'm not counting the Smart or Mini).

[NoGOPZone]

62. It was the fault of neither the engineers nor the workers

Beancounters had almost completely taken over executive management during that time period, continuing a trend that had begun around 1960. The two groups you have identified didn't have a lot with which to work.


DeLorean had a great quote which I can't remember exactly, but it was something along the lines of how executives should assume responsibility for failures as quickly as they do successes.

[hifiguy]

77. Yup. The car guys and engineers were booted out

in favor of MBAs at the top of the Big Three. That worked out real well, didn't it?

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Urban Prairie]

68. I loved my 77 1/2 Black Camaro Z28 pre-IROC-Z mullethead.

Customized the hell out of it, and although it didn't compare in HP (~170) to even my '70 307 2 bbl Nova, what it was NOT was a pretty commonplace Firebird/Trans Am, like most of the other Saturday night cruisers were on our main drags. I believe that the fastest domestic vehicle mfg in the late 70s was Dodge's "Lil Red Express truck", or Buick's turbo-charged V6 Regal/LeSabre.

[JuniperLea]

70. My 70's cars kicked serious ass!

I had a 72 Monte Carlo and a 72 Coupe de Ville... the most killer machines I ever owned. My ex and both of my sons still have their 77 Chevy pickups too.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. The monte carlo is worth something today.

I love my 70 chevelle - same chassis.

[JuniperLea]

86. Oh man...

Every time I see one on the road I wish I had that car! It was the first car I ever owned that was aged still within the decade it was made:D

My Dad bought it, and then not to be outdone, my Grandfather bought the Cadi. I ended up with both eventually... loved them both dearly.

[hifiguy]

106. Cool car - a bud of mine

has a tricked out '70 Chevelle that is just as sweet as can be. He's had it for 30 years and the day he sells it will be the day they pry the keys from his cold, dead fingers.

[lumberjack_jeff]

134. Heh. I must know you. n/t

[Shagbark Hickory]

72. was?

[AngryAmish]

74. They never had to improve

In WWII the other great manufacturing countries were demolished and burned to the ground- Germany and Japan. England was bankrupt. The US was the only game in town and we could charge high prices for inferior products since it was the best available.

But eventually Germany and Japan rebuilt and created products better than the Americans. The US auto makers were a beaurocratic mess and could not change.

And here we are.

[hifiguy]

75. An '80s catatastrophe

When I graduated from law school in 1988 I bought a brand new Firebird Trans Am. Beautiful car, and I am a gearhead/car snob. Gunmetal grey, leather interior, top-line audio, all the bells and whistles. Engine only put out 220 hp, and that was the most you could get back then, so it wasn't a drag strip champ in terms of acceleration. Handled like a dream and was a marvelous high-speed tourer, though.

Twice in the first year I owned it it had to be TOWED to the dealer :wtf: (and I only drove it in non-snow months up here in Minnuhsoduh). The power windows and other electrical things stopped working within two months, and eventually it had to be towed back for extensive electrical system repairs. A couple of months later EVERYTHING electrical stopped working. Another tow back to the dealer and essentially the entire electrical system of the car had to be replaced. Combined time in the shop was more than a MONTH. How it ever got out of the factory was a complete mystery to me. A year later I lost my job and turned the car back over to GM.

I owned nothing but imports (a wonderful VW Scirocco that eventually rusted away and a nice Toyota Celica GT) for years afterwards.

That said, the best car I ever owned was a 2001 Olds Aurora 4.0. Gorgeous, fast, good handling, luxurious, and it felt showroom fresh when I bought it with 62K on it in 2005.

Edit for typos.

[jberryhill]

79. Aw, c'mon, they had fine Corinthian leather!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIL3fbGbU2o

[JVS]

88. I wish Chrysler would make a pimped out version of the Challenger and sell it as a new Cordoba

[Codeine]

94. What a boat that was.

Looks unpleasantly soft and smooshy even in its own ad campaign.

[jberryhill]

95. You can see it wobble when he opens the door

What's great about that land yacht ad is the tagline at the end:

"The Small Chrysler"

The SMALL one? You could house a village in that thing.

[Codeine]

99. The best part is even at that size it's still a two-door.

Cause there just wasn't room for two more doors.

[JVS]

118. You don't seem to be understanding the "personal luxury" concept.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAX4JC7X0s&feature=related
The two doors are because having more people in there than just yourself and a date would start cramping your style.

[jberryhill]

82. First generation Honda Civic

Does anyone remember how they would pull to one side during acceleration, because they hadn't quit worked out the bugs in their front wheel drive transmission?

[Moondog]

117. Torque-steer. Had a tricked out '08 Mini Cooper S that did the same thing.

[WCGreen]

90. They were made to last 3 or 4 years and then to be replaced...

[Codeine]

93. My 72 Plymouth Duster was actually pretty badass.

Lasted til my girlfriend wrecked it in 1997. Still roared like the angry beast it was when you punched it.

Of course it was only good in a straight line, and there was the time a spring and a bit of plastic broke off the carb and landed in the throttle linkage while I was accelerating, jamming the throttle open. That was fun!

[jberryhill]

96. What I like about the OP is...

What a string of rotten models they had.

Oh no, not just the K-car, but the freaking wagon.

Not having had enough punishment with the Maverick, they go BACK for the Mustang.

Ouch.

[Rage for Order]

104. It was terrible

I left off the 1976 Plymouth Duster, and maybe one or two others my family owned. It didn't help that I have 2 older sisters and 3 older brothers; my parents would drive their cars until the wheels practically fell off, then they would give them to one of my older brothers who would then proceed to really run it into the ground. Finally, when they were done with it, I would get the car with 150,000 miles on it and ready for the scrap heap. There was one point, when I was 16-18 I think, where I went through 4 cars in 2 years and didn't wreck any of them. I think the order was 74 Dodge Coronet wagon, 74 Ford Maverick, 76 Ford Mustang, and 81 Dodge Diplomat. I drove these cars from 1986-1988. At least I didn't have to walk, except when the cars broke down and left me stranded.

[jberryhill]

107. The Duster wasn't that bad

I've got three driving age teenagers, and it's been a real shocker to me that you can't find a $500 beater anymore.

It used to be that if you had $500, you could get something that moved under its own power at least long enough to get it home.

[Ganja Ninja]

100. I can tell you this, it wasn't the fault of the auto workers.

I worked for Pontiac Motors back in the 70's and 80's.

The real problem is that we forgot how to do basic quality control. There is an actual science to it. In fact we taught it to the Japanese back in the 50's. But at some point quality control went out the window and the only thing that mattered to the white collar managers at GM was the number of parts and cars coming off the line per shift.

To give you an example, I use to go over to the final assembly plant at night to look at the new cars. On certain models there would be a paint run in the same spot on every car. This went on for months. They would just ship the cars to the dealers and let the dealers fix them under warranty.

Another example is the way they ran their parts lines. I worked in engine block machining. If one operation broke down they would just keep running the lines and remove the parts at the point of stoppage. The problem there is you end up with a whole warehouse of parts that later on you find have some other problem. Some good and some bad parts all mixed together and nobody knows which is which.

And of course management and design were complacent and reluctant to embrace the changing demands of the market. The company was unwilling to invest in new tooling and revamped designs. It was just managed badly from the top down. Workers had little if any control or ability to change the nature of how business was conducted on the factory floor.

[IDemo]

102. I had a 1977 Cobra ll, 302ci-V8, loved it

Most would tell you this was a POS, based on the Pinto chassis. I had a blast in it, enjoyed driving it, and only sold it because it unfortunately wasn't very good at getting up the local ski hill.

[MindPilot]

105. And let's not forget most of the interior trim was made by

Erik Prince's dad.

[mochajava666]

108. Back then, we could afford to buy a new car every 5 years

Cars reflected your lifestyle, status, world view, or just your mood at the time. Purchasing a car could be a whimsical exercise.

Engineers cut corners, but the customers wanted the new toys, so making a car last longer only hurt your future sales. I think the term is called built-in obsolescence. Expectations were that you weren't going to get over 100,000 miles. Back then, mostly it was just foreign cars that actually had odometers that went above 100,000.

[jberryhill]

129. "planned obsolescence"

Yup.

[grahamhgreen]

125. That was when the BEAN COUNTERS became CEO's.

[JVS]

127. Oh yeah. Because Robert McNamara wasn't a bean counter at Ford in the 50s.

[harun]

132. They hadn't integrated computers effectively in to the production process yet.

[cameozalaznick]

135. It was called planned obsolescence

They purposefully made crappy things so you'd have to buy another one in a few years. Worked pretty well, too, until Deming began to school the Japenese and they started making things that worked. Suddenly US manufacturers had to do the same or face obsolescence themselves.

[Paradoxical]

136. Several reasons.

A. The federal government created mandates for emissions throughout the early 1970s. In other parts of the world, the auto companies simply evolved naturally with cleaner engines. This forced the American companies to drastically alter engine design and apply technology that was, frankly, archaic.

Extremely low power output along with complex new engine management systems created reliability and performance issues.

B. Cost cutting including outsourcing.

[deaniac21]

139. it had nothing to do with the unions.