Who is this government jackass hollering that sleeping air traffic controllers

[gateley]

is "behavior we will not tolerate!"???

I hold them responsible for allowing working conditions where this could happen to any one of us. :grr:

He's making it sound like these people were just slacking off.

[Scuba]

1. Sleeping on the job sounds like slacking to me. You know something different? What gov't JA?

[gateley]

3. Some guy who was just shown on MSNBC. I've been in meetings -- important

ones -- where I just couldn't keep my eyes open, didn't even know I was tired (and I wasn't bored). It's frustrating and alarming -- and you're powerless no matter how hard you try to fight it. I give these guys the benefit of the doubt, I don't picture them with their feet up on the console, snuggled under a blanker, rather the head-snapping fighting to stay awake scenario. That's not slacking, IMO, that's fatigue and your body is forcing you to shut down.

[Zoeisright]

14. Overworked employees in stressful jobs with no backup = sleeping on the job.

Slacking has nothing to do with it. Do a little research before you post something so stupid.

[Scuba]

26. That's the kind of detail I was asking for. The original poster provided nothing...

...I remember guard duty in the military and staying awake was very difficult even when you knew there were real threats out there. That's why we had multiple people awake, to support each other.

Do the FAA controllers work alone???? Is that what you're saying?


I don't think my post was stupid, but you're entitled to your own opinion.

[gateley]

43. Yeah -- they work alone and for extended shifts with not enough respite time.

I imagine the circumstances could be similar to your situation in the military, except these guys are, as I said, alone, in a quiet dark room, no stimulation, staring at a monitor.

Years ago there used to be backup and more reasonable hours, but Reagan did away with that.

The military understood/understands the reality of what fatigue and certain conditions can do to a body. When people are looking at the $$$ bottom line, apparently those affected are supposed to somehow be immune to those human conditions. It's always the money. :grr:

[newspeak]

47. yet, another great union busting idea we can lay at the

feet of St. Ronnie.

[gateley]

50. The damage he did is so far-reaching and never ending. It's a nightmare. nt

[Brickbat]

53. Whom PATCO endorsed.

Ouch.

[BobbyBoring]

57. Yep

And think of the nightmares we'll face 30 years down the road that St. George the lesser paved the way for. That's if we make it another 30 years~

[Green_Lantern]

64. as much as I dislike Reagan..I'm not sure traffic controller strikes

Are legal.

[walldude]

59. They didn't used to work alone...

Budget cuts.

[lilyin]

2. They were

slacking off. I can't sleep at my job, can you? If a job is too much and one cannot handle it without sleeping, then it's time to change jobs or request fewer hours.

[gateley]

4. See my response above -- I can identify with these guys, sometimes it just

overpowers you. They shouldn't have been scheduled to work so many hours without adequate time off, and without somebody else there as insurance. That's why they have two pilots in the cockpit.

[Monique1]

6. When one person is on the job

responsbile for others it is not good. There should always be back up when others lives are involved. Plus, looking at a screen for several hours can put one to sleep. It is like hynosis.

The the one who said, they could not sleep on their job, no one can but sometimes one cannot help it.

Have you ever fallen alseep at your computer after being there for some time? I bet you did!

Working 8-12 hours at a time with no communication with others is a problem.

[gateley]

11. It's crazy to have someone in that position and work them to exhaustion and

still expect them to be alert and on top of it with no support.

I toured an air traffic facility once, and although I understand the differences between that and a control tower, but each is an incredibly important job. When I entered the room I could FEEL the pressure and stress -- almost as though a weight was pushing down on my shoulders. That much laser focus and stress takes its toll, too.

[Drale]

5. Exactly people want to white wash the fact that they did something wrong

just because they where were working long hours. I've worked 10 12 14 hour days before and if I tried sleeping during my shift I would have been fired on the spot.

[gateley]

16. Does your job entail sitting in a darkened room with no external stimulus, sitting

in one place, staring at a screen?

I've worked long hours, too -- but I was BUSY during those hours. And after about 5 days, I was bone weary - like I can't even put into words.

Edit -- should have spell checked!

[Zoeisright]

18. Oh really? In a row? How many days?

If you think it's impossible to fall asleep on the job, you haven't worked very hard. When your body says "sleep" and you haven't slept for days ... oh, why am I bothering to explain this to someone who just will NOT even TRY to understand? Do a little research on the topic before you spout off.

[Drale]

20. I used to work from 5am to 6pm 5 days a week and never had problems

I agree the should have more then one person in the tower at one time. It is sad how blind DU has been come lately, it seems that everyone believes that workers can do no wrong and it is 100% the managements fault when something goes wrong.

[Brickbat]

22. You know, when you have a schedule, it makes all the difference in the world.

A lot of transportation jobs don't have schedules. You go when you get the call. It might mean 5 15-hour shifts in a row, but the first one comes at 5 a.m., the next one at 3 a.m., the next one at 1 a.m., and then nothing for a day, and then suddenly after being up all day having fun on your day off, you have to go out at 10 p.m., right when you're getting ready for bed. It's very, very difficult to acclimate to that, and fatigue can get you when you least expect it.

[gateley]

24. But what do you DO? Do you move? Are you kept busy? Are you in a darkened

room?

Yes, it's sad how blind some on DU can't see beyond their own circumstances, assuming everyone in the world is just like them.

[Drale]

25. No it wasn't dark but it was extremely hot and

I stood in front on one machine doing the same thing over and over. If I had not had my wits about me, I could have been hurt very badly or even killed.

[sudopod]

67. In the snow, uphill, both ways, etc. nt

[Ikonoklast]

19. What is it that you do?

Are you sitting in a darkened air control tower, by yourself, working the graveyard shift?

[Drale]

21. Well right now I am unemployed but

when I had a job I worked in a paper cutting factory, from 5am to 6pm 5 days a week. Don't jump to conclusions that I have no experience in working long hours.

[Brickbat]

23. It's not always the long hours; it's the lack of a schedule that's difficult to acclimate to.

[gateley]

28. I'm not saying you haven't worked long hours, I was asking about the circumstances.

I doubt you worked all by yourself in a quiet dark room in the dead of night with no stimulation and probably no fresh air.

I worked in a biotech facility and they were short of people down on the floor so I went down and volunteered to help. The only thing they'd trust me with was loading boxes onto the conveyor belt. :7. That was mind numbing but I didn't fall asleep.

I don't know how you or I would do in a dark, quiet control tower in the middle of the night, which is why I realize I can't judge these people. Apparently you can because you had no problems in your job.

I'm sorry you're not currently employed -- if you're looking, I wish you success.

[Drale]

30. I don't want to judge anyone, what I'm trying to point out

is that people seem to jump to the conclusion that it is automatically the managements fault when something goes wrong, and that is just not true. There is such a thing as a bad Union worker, does that mean I don't support Unions because there might be some bad workers in their ranks? No it doesn't but we can not just jump to conclusions. There are hundreds of these tower workers around the country and their is a small number of incidents.

[gateley]

33. The air traffic controllers lost so many of their rights under Reagan. Previously,

it was understood what an important position it was, responsible for safely ensuring people access and exit to airports. All of a sudden, it was cheaper to only have one person at the helm, work that person for long hours in a very stressful situation, and expect the same results. Probably looked good on paper. If we understood the importance of adequate rest and backup back then, why don't we now? Why do they have two pilots in a cockpit?

I'm not saying NONE of these guys wasn't a slacker, but I've long been appalled by the cavalier attitude about providing conditions that help these people perform their very important jobs.

[Monique1]

7. You need to understand but you won't

I won't bother arguing with you since you know all the answers. How much are you paid to be here?

[Hissyspit]

44. Are you an air traffic controller?

I never fall asleep at my job, but I'm not an air traffic controller.

[newspeak]

49. it is a stressful job and apparently

working even more hours. You let me know how many jobs are out there for people to support their families. Now, I saw on TV, the repuke house wants to change policies for pilots also. Allowing them extended flying time with no breaks. They've already cut pilot pay, especially, the smaller airlines and now they're pushing for extended hours that would jeopardize everyone--but hey, it will be the pilot's fault, right?????

How are you going to request fewer hours--there's no damn representation anymore--like I said, St. Ronnie did away with that--who needs any stinking worker safety, passenger safety laws anyway? As long as the big guys can make a few extra bucks and hire even less workers.

[BobbyBoring]

58. First off

Change job to what? There are no jobs and ATC work is very specialized. Second, they don't "Request" shit. They work when and where they're told. This is the end result of union busting.

[walldude]

61. President Reagan? Is that you?

I know you could fire them all!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[gateley]

62. Look at all they go through to become a controller -- it's very specialized and

requires a lot of training. They just don't walk in off the street because there's a Help Wanted sign in the window.

/snip

Air safety isn’t the easiest career to get into. Controllers are responsible not just for negotiating runway traffic, but policing the skies for about a 50-mile radius around their towers. It’s a high-stress position that requires eagle-eye attention on the job, which is difficult for anyone to keep up for an eight-hour shift; and many air traffic control units work rotating shifts to keep airports staffed around the clock./snip

Interesting, informative article.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/apr/13/emergency-landing-reno-airport-made-after-air-traf/

[arikara]

65. Obviously then you have never worked

at a job when you are so tired that it is nearly impossible to stay awake. Fatigue is not "slacking off". Have you ever worked night shifts? I worked 14 hr night shifts for 10 years. It takes its toll, it took over 2 years to get over the insomnia and fatigue.

Change jobs or request fewer hours in this labor climate when the employer is trying to get more time out of a worker for nothing? No comment.

[etherealtruth]

71. i can't imagine working the night shift for 14 days much less 14 years

I think what is lost in this conversation is the understanding of just how difficult it is to work these shifts. It is really forcing one's body to work against biological programming.

[sudopod]

66. ...or request fewer hours.

LOL, good one.

[Control-Z]

68. Wow.

You must be very special.

Me? I'm just human - embarrassingly susceptible to fatigue, especially when working for too many hours in a quiet situation without a break.

But, hey. Good for you. Life must be great.

[eqfan592]

70. You CAN'T request fewer hours...

..and most facilities I've heard of you MUST work a shift that includes at least one third shift, one second shift and one first shift every single week (assuming your facility is open for third shift). You jack with a persons sleep cycle like that, and no matter how well paid, in shape or professional a person is, fatigue is going to seep in. This is part of the reason why NATCA has been pushing for it to be mandatory that no person ever works a shift solo for around two decades, but the FAA has fought them on this for budgetary reasons.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. well in this new America people will blame the slacker

instead of the working conditions that lead to that.

See thread for proof

[Xithras]

9. Stick one person, alone, in a dark room, without Internet, for hours. What do you expect?

Lacking external stimulus, the human body is wired to sleep with those conditions.

[gateley]

13. I would love to see those here who are being judgmental to have to work a month

in the same conditions putting in the same hours. It can happen to any one of us, and you bring up a good point -- the body is wired to sleep given those conditions.

[Zoeisright]

15. Plus one billion.

There are some really, REALLY stupid knee-jerk responses on this thread.

[Populist_Prole]

31. Make it a billion and one

I notice the conservative/authoritarian crowd always react the same way about workers in safety sensitive positions: ATC controllers, airline employees, railroad employees, security guards etc. You never ever hear them ask "What can we do to help facilitate them doing their jobs more effectively and safely?". It's always the punitive angle they take. Scare them into not screwing up. Fatheads.

[seabeyond]

10. the man had a shift. fell asleep during his shift. that isnt slacking?

i dont think it was about working too many hours, but sleeping during his shift. where this happened they have decided to put in two people so they wont have anyone fall asleep. and was too long a little plane, with ill person couldnt land cause couldnt get hold of controller

[gateley]

12. I think the schedules these people have to work take their tolls -- I don't have to

work that many hours with so few hours off in between. I don't think people are giving thought to the circumstances and the limits of the human body. We need rest and respite, whether we like it or not.

[seabeyond]

40. do you have any info? i assumed and have not heard otherwise, it is an 8 hour shift

and i am assuming the normal breaks as everyone else.

if they have a schedule set up different, tht is another story.

[gateley]

48. Here's a good article on the Reno situation

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/apr/13/emergency-landing-reno-airport-made-after-air-traf/

It references "rotating shifts" but I heard more detail elsewhere, I'll look for it.

This article is very informative, not only about the working conditions, but about the stress level and requirements needed in order to become a controller.

People who go through the time and effort to become one don't sound like the types who would blow off the job and just take a snooze.

[seabeyond]

52. thanks. i will read. nt

[Fla_Democrat]

51. Maybe this....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_controller#Work_patterns

Work patterns

Typically, controllers work "on position" for 90 to 120 minutes then they get 30 minutes break. Except at quieter airports, Air Traffic Control is a 24 hours, 365-days-a-year job. Therefore controllers usually work rotating shifts, including nights, weekends and public holidays. These are usually set twenty eight days in advance. In many countries the structure of controllers' shift patterns is regulated to allow for adequate time off. In the UK the most common pattern is two mornings, two late afternoons and 2 evenings/nights followed by 4 day break.<3>



:shrug:








:smoke:

[seabeyond]

54. thanks for the info. nt

[Brickbat]

17. I find it pathetic that people actually believe these workers were slacking off -- that there's an

epidemic of slacking in the air traffic control industry. It would be laughable if it weren't so disgusting. One incident, maybe you consider slacking. More than one, there's a problem with the job, not the people.

I'm going to drift a little bit and talk about railroads instead of ATCs, but I do think there are some similarities. Both are difficult, 24/7/365 jobs.

I posted in another thread about how locomotive engineers have an "alerter" in their faces all the time. I'll duplicate it here:

There is a high-wattage utility light and a rapidly escalating klaxon that goes off in front of the engineer's face at random intervals every 30 seconds to 2 minutes. The engineer has a short time to hit a button to turn it off. If he doesn't, the locomotive automatically shoots the brakes and the train stops until the air brakes are pumped up again.

This alerter is on whether an engine is shoving stuff around in the yard or on a long-distance pull, whether it's an easy 7 a.m. to 4 p.m. shift or an extra 2 a.m. dogcatch, whether the engineer is looking over his shoulder trying to spot the conductor in the blizzard or eating his lunch while the train moves through an automatic dumper at .5 mph.

Now, when trains had full crews (4-6 people), they didn't have alerters. The "need" for alerters came when crews were cut and people started going out on ridiculous schedules. The only head-on collisions his railroad has had have come when there are alerters in the train. I AM NOT saying alerters caused these problems, but I AM saying that alerters aren't the safety devices people think they are.

The way to make this stop is to properly staff these positions. It's something this country used to understand.

[dana_b]

27. "The way to make this stop is to properly staff these positions."

but that would cost money!!11 Or, God forbid, the return of unions!!11

I'm with you. I have worked the swing shifts, graveyard, etc. and it is hell on our bodies. Then it's not like you get to go home and just sleep. It's everyone else's daytime and they can't understand why you are sleeping in the daytime or you have little kids, or whatever else interferes with your rest.

[Brickbat]

29. Exactly.

Although, when you say, "the return of unions," I get a slightly mean feeling about PATCO, which is currently lying in the bed it made 30 years ago.

When Mr. Brickbat gets home at 10 a.m. on a Saturday after a 14-hour shift, of course he wants to stay up and see the kids and get some work done around the house. But if he does -- even if he stays up until 2 p.m. and then goes to bed -- he still might have to get up again at 6 p.m. for an 8 p.m. train that runs until 8 the next morning. But if he doesn't -- when does he see us?

I don't know how ATCs are scheduled -- without a strong union, I don't know what kind of bidding they do on shifts, or if they have any kind of seniority-based system. But I do know that many people work without a schedule, and it is terribly, terribly difficult.

[dana_b]

35. I was in a strong union

(CNA) and it was seniority based BUT even the newbies were scheduled for two months of nights and then one month of days so they would get a break. It's not fair to do all nights, all the time. We also had our schedule a month ahead of time. Lucky us!!

My friend in Indiana had something similar to what Mr. Brickbat is doing. She worked for Amoco which became BP (boo hiss!!) for 30 years in an oil refinery. She would get there at 7:00 at night and work her 12-13 hours and then drive home (an hour), take the kid to school, clean the house, sleep a bit, pick up the kid from school, make dinner and go to work. It was hell. Then they were always "asked" to do overtime. I say "asked" because it was almost a mandatory thing. They could refuse but then God forbid if you needed a day off. No way!! Oh, and she said there were guys sleeping on the job a LOT. Very dangerous because it's a damn oil refinery and things have to be monitored. She was good about staying awake but she said it was tempting sometimes.

[gateley]

38. Beyond being tempting sometimes, sometimes it just overtakes you -- you literally

have no control. And sitting in a darkened, quiet room, staring at a screen. I'm not sure I'd make it through one shift without a nod or two.

[gateley]

36. I'm bursting with support for your post! Well done! nt

[Tatiana]

32. I'm giving these workers the benefit of the doubt. I think they had funky schedules

and should never have been placed in a position of having to direct air traffic alone in a dark, sleep-inducing environment without some backup. Working 8 hours on, 8 hours off, 8 hours on, 8 hours off can be a brutal schedule and I suspect these workers were working even longer hours with less rest than what management is "leaking" to the media.

[Sirveri]

34. God forbid anyone look at how they treat people prior to ORSE.

No, I won't expand on that.

[n2doc]

37. Got some real winners out there today

And upthread as well. Hey, RW bozos, have you ever considered that a person might have a medical emergency (stroke, Heart attack, seizure) and be incapacitated by that route? If a job is mission critical (and this one is) then you need more than one person there.

I love these "they are slackers, they should get a different job" types. Their reasoning would eventually lead to everyone working in medieval conditions, because after all, you must do what the employer says, or go away!

[gateley]

39. EXCELLENT point about a medical emergency! And even if it's not an emergency,

I succumbed to nods due to a medical condition (thyroid cancer) that went undiagnosed for YEARS!

I'm shaking my head at some of the responses, when I posted the OP I think I anticipated a chorus of support for the workers! Boy, was I surprised. :eyes:

[seabeyond]

42. i am more than willing to be informed.... dont need to be called names. what i have read and heard

and ALL i have read and heard (so please enlighten me cause i accept info readily) in reno there was but one in the tower. he fell asleep on the job. a medical plane couldnt land for 16 minutes. and regardless of danger, decided he needed to land anyway. after the event, they decided to put two in the tower to avoid this in the future in 20 airports....

so

what dont i know

without name calling

[gateley]

45. Basically, anybody doing that job in those conditions could have sleep overtake

them -- it could happen to any of us.

They had backup and better hours (and equipment!) years ago, but Reagan slashed that. (You may be too young to remember. :7)

[seabeyond]

55. well, i did think it a good idea putting in two workers, in a position that important

and i was glad to see that they immediately recognized and did.

[librechik]

41. If they would hire more personnel, they could take nap breaks at night

unfortunately, the approach to staffing has been FIRE AS MANY AS POSSIBLE for these thirty years since Reagan. It's some kind of sin to hire employees for the essential govt jobs cuz Govt is Evil, according to the Right.

[gateley]

46. Looks good on paper in order to balance the budget, I'm sure.

I'd like to plunk those assholes who make these determinations down in that job for a month -- see how they'd do. Like the authoritarian prick I saw on MSNBC who prompted me to write the OP. I never DREAMED there would be so much disagreement!

[Green_Lantern]

56. wow...you must not use airlines..

An air traffic controller falling asleep could cause hundreds of deaths.

The problem is that these controllers work such long hours since Bush cut back on their union work protection.

[gateley]

60. Are you responding to my OP? Because we're essentially on the same page here.

And it was Reagan who slashed the air traffic controllers benefits/safety, but I've no doubt Bush added to the problems.

[Green_Lantern]

63. sorry...I realized as I was typing you mentioned long hours..

But Reagan didn't even go so far as cutting the work protections and benefits of controllers to increase their hours.

Reagan just fired most of them for striking over issues in negotiation under Carter. Reagan didn't cut protections or benefits, he just didn't expand them as he promised.

They eventually reunionized but many began retired during the Bush admin. leaving him to hire fewer controllers to work more hours.
http://www.slate.com/id/2289801/

[gateley]

69. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering why I heard references to a union --

thought it was long gone.

I read that plenty more are ready to retire, and they don't have people waiting to step in.

The Republicans are disgraceful human beings. And as always, it's the 'victim' who gets blamed. I hate them with the heat of a thousand suns. :grr: