I talked with a Tea Partier yesterday

[yardwork]

She and her boyfriend spend a lot of time at Tea Party rallies. He's been unemployed for four years and has no interest in finding a job. She has a small service business that has been hit hard by the economic downturn. She's the only employee. He recently had serious surgery. I have no idea how this was paid for but I assume that he is on public assistance of one kind or another.

I asked her why they belonged to the Tea Party movement. She said that they are "fiscal conservatives." She said that she used to be a socialist but she read a book called Rich Dad, Poor Dad and that opened her eyes. Also, she said that when she was learning her current business she met people who had poor business sense and she equated that with being a socialist. She equates being a good business woman with being a Tea Partier.

She told me that banks are running the country and have been for hundreds of years. (This is invariably a prelude into anti-Semitic rants so I changed the subject before she went there.)

She said that people need to realize that we can't afford social security and Medicare anymore. She said that we need to ask wealthy people to stop using social security and Medicare since they don't need it, they say so themselves. I pointed out that if wealthy people no longer have any incentive to protect social security and Medicare then the rest of us won't have it for long, either. I suggested that a more straightforward approach to fiscal conservatism might be to simply raise the taxes on the very wealthy. She said that they would never agree to that. (She seemed to think that the wealthy would have no problem dropping their own social security and Medicare but leaving ours alone.)

There was kind of a longish pause and then she came back with, "Last week the IMF warned the United States that we have to do something about our out of control spending! That's never happened before!"

She mentioned that she feared that the U.S. Constitution was being dropped in favor of mob rule. She said that lots of "ultra-liberals" said that the Constitution was out-dated and no longer relevant. I said that I had never anybody say that but she was very insistent. I think that she might be thinking about amendments.

That was the end of the conversation. Their political activism is built on belief in scams, anti-Semitic and racist conspiracy theories, confusion and gullibility, all playing on the fears and economic anxieties of people already living at or over the edge. This is the face of the Tea Party. How do we reach these people?

[HopeHoops]

1. You can't get through to the teabaggers. Give it up.

They'll believe anything they hear on FOX Noise.

[niyad]

2. uh, no, you little twit, it is the reichwing saying the constitution is outdated.

[mmonk]

4. They think the constitution has something to do with supply side economics.

[Magron]

58. Reichwing. Mind if i use that?

[niyad]

64. welcome to DU--you are more than welcome to use "reichwing"--

or reichwingnuts, etc.

[yourout]

3. "How do we reach these people?".....we don't. Like an addict...beating it comes from within.

[Cirque du So-What]

5. Some people are inherently unreachable

From the way you describe them, the teabagger movement has tapped into their unshakable bigotry and paranoia. My advice: give them a couple bottles of cheap hooch the night before every election and if they're able to stagger to the polls the next day, they'll get turned away for being stoopid drunk.

[warrior1]

6. Man

she really doesn't know anything. That's really sad.

[Demoiselle]

25. Yes, it's very sad....

I just can't understand for the life of me how she can take what few pieces of information she has and form the conclusions she's come to.
If God had not wanted them shorn........

[skepticscott]

7. You don't

Any more than you "reach" the fundamentalist loons and bigots who are the other driving forces behind the current Republican party. They are, as a mindthink group, largely immune to reason or facts. Even if you manage to undermine the groupthink mentality for a few people, the core remains.

All you can do is expend every possible effort to limit their influence on public policy. Trying to change their minds about these issues is a waste of valuable time and effort.

[MedleyMisty]

8. Lots of people agree about the banks

And yes, it does get anti-Semitic sometimes but well - can you really say that Bank of America has been a force for good, for instance?

And we all know that the Constitution no longer applies, that the "ultra-conservatives", aka fascists, have killed it.

I've been noticing that - these people know that something is seriously wrong, and they even get some of the details right. But the fascists have convinced them that it's the other side that's doing it. Because psychopaths project everything.

[texshelters]

38. Good analysis

MM,

There are issues with the banks and the economy and lack of voting power in the US, and it behooves the corporate media and corporations to use those issues to blame the unions, the workers, the lazy welfare cheats and others when they are the cause of the current economic downturn.

And those with few resources, little eduction in analytical thinking, and a TV stuck on Fox News, they are easily convinced by propaganda from the right.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Solomon]

47. I've been harping on that damn central bank. But it's like crying

in the wilderness. Nobody wants to talk about it but to me it's the source of all of our problems.
The "bank" is privately owned by a few individuals. We have to borrow from them because we can't print our own money. We the people borrow enormous sums of moneyn from them and have to pay interest for the loans. We get taxed in order to secure thses loans.

Then they turn around and make us spend the money they force us to borrow? And what do they make us spend it on? Wars wars and more wars.

Something has to be done about the bank. Everytime I mention it, it just sinks like a rock.

[texshelters]

63. It is one of the keys

to the banking madness in the states.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. We don't reach them; we expose them for the fools they are.

Thanks for your contribution! :)

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

10. This sounds terrible

but I think 50% of the country isn't very bright. The other 50% is divided between the right and left............... your example, to me, falls in the not very bright category.

[skepticscott]

31. I think that 50% is pretty generous

Or at the very least, a lot more than 50% of the people are shockingly unaware of what goes on around them in this country.

[texshelters]

42. Insulting half the population is counter productive when

with a little education and compassion, many can start working for the people instead of against us.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[skepticscott]

56. Except that nobody

think that THEY are in the bad 50%, so I haven't really insulted anyone, now have I? And recognizing the limits of knowledge, reason and critical thinking ability of the general population (which are manifest and well documented) is a vital step towards remedying that situation, wouldn't you agree? Much more productive than simply denying that such a serious problem exists or pretending that it doesn't.

And please, what is this "little education and compassion" that will turn humans into a race of well-informed, rational beings, after thousands of years of being otherwise?

[texshelters]

62. There are many examples of people finding

their compassion for humanity and changing, whether it's a former Klan member befriending a black activist or a war Vet coming to terms with the war his country and he committed against the populations of third world nation. MLK turned around Northern perceptions, and I have had a little success in dispelling the myth of the evil liberal.

Would you not agree that insults have no value but to entrench the right that many so blithely call "stupid"?

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[skepticscott]

66. That's all very warm and fuzzy, but

it has nothing to do with my claim that that a large segment of the population is unaware of a great deal going on around them (politically, economically, scientifically, legally, etc.) and does a lousy job at logic and critical thinking. If you'd care to address THAT, and its consequences, then maybe we can have a discussion.

And yes, in fact, insults do have value.

[texshelters]

67. I'm not talking about "a large segement" of the population

I'm talking about those I interact with. I know that calling people stupid does no good, so I do my best to ignore the helplessly ignorant, or engage in a way that won't be met with immediate rejection. I did quite well during the halceon days of MySpace, before Murdock ruined it, engaging with some right-wingers.

So, I wasn't talking about the masses. End of discussion then.

Thanks.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[ThatsMyBarack]

11. "Rich Dad Poor Dad":

The quick-fix fiscal bible for a dumber America.

[yardwork]

13. Yes, it's a known scam. Similar to the Prosperity Gospel.

[HughBeaumont]

27. Kiyosaki is a not-so-New Jack Hustla who (quel surprise) got his book start at Amway:

And more and more dirt on the hucksterist lies and long-on-brightsiding, short-on-substance fluff that made his Rich Dad, Poor Dad pulp fiction a national phenomenon:

http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html

[coalition_unwilling]

28. I picked it up on a whim at a Los Angeles Public Library book sale

to raise funds for the library. The book's constant self promotion and turgid prose caused me to chuck it after about 5 mins. Still, the $1 - $2 I spent for it went to a good cause.

[bahrbearian]

32. Thanks for link

[HughBeaumont]

54. It's not a bad dissection for the most part . . .

Almost a shame that John T. Reed is kind of a right-wing asshat (calls himself a Libertarian . . . one that conveniently spends a great deal of his political insight shitting on the party that doesn't start with an R . . .)

[yardwork]

12. I think that Democrats need to reach them somehow.

It's not enough to simply shrug and say that they're not very bright, uninformed, and bigoted. That may be true but they're still going to the polls and voting against everybody's interests except those of the very, very wealthy. As some have pointed out in this thread there is a germ of truth in what the Tea Partiers fear, but they are completely misguided in their solution.

The Tea Party was invented by Koch Industries and other multinational corporations as a way to channel people's recognition that something is very wrong.

Aside from her rant about the banks - which was going to lead directly into anti-Semitism and quickly away from banks as corporations - there was zero recognition that all these problems are caused by the control of U.S. resources in the hands of multinational corporations and the very wealthy who control them.

There must be a response from the Democrats. The Party must show the courage to tell the truth. Instead, the Democrats are almost as cowed by corporations as the Republicans.

The Tea Party is the future of the U.S. unless we turn it around.

[texshelters]

43. Very true, kudos

and all that.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[flamingdem]

14. This line says it all, teabaggers using public services and talking cuts?

Self flagellation or hypocrisy?


>>He recently had serious surgery. I have no idea how this was paid for but I assume that he is on public assistance of one kind or another.

[lunatica]

15. You'll get along better with her if you accept that she's made up her mind

and just talk about other things.

It really isn't up to us to educate the willfully ignorant. They want their world view and seek their gurus out to make it happen. Gurus like Limbaugh and Hannity in FOX news.

[texshelters]

44. "get along"?!

Why get along with someone's ideas and votes hurt you and your neighbors. There is a way to discuss the issues and education and it is up to all of us to try.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[lunatica]

50. They've made up their minds and not even facts will budge them

To them it isn't about facts, or the truth. It's all about their opinion because that is what they feel. And unfortunately they believe their opinion is based on mental work.

Anyway, I finally learned to let go of being the savior type. I realized that saving myself is the only true power I have.

[texshelters]

61. I don't know who this "them" is

but I have found some agreement with libertarians and those Republicans who don't have televisions. (Medio chiste)

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[heppcatt]

16. Have you heard of the book "The Secret"?

The idea of this book is that if you think in certain ways than the universe will react toward you in relation to your thoughts.

It almost seems like this lady is acting this way, because having this perspective will somehow create prosperity for her business. I know there is a christian ideology that is similar called prosperity theology or word of faith, where if you believe in god the correct way, then you will be rewarded with wealth.

This idea is a rework of the divine right of kings. If someone is rich and successful than obviously they are a true christian and god has shown them favor.

[Zax2me]

17. Why?!

Other than for sport...
nothing will be changed in those so-called minds.

[Ikonoklast]

18. I'm going Godwin right off the bat here...

Hitler rose to power using the same type of people to build a political base...they are ignorant, politically naive, racist, and blame every ill thing that ever happened to them, in spite of their own laziness or stupidity on the 'other'.

It is always someone elses' fault that they have failed in life, and will desperately follow the first person that tells them exactly what it is they want to hear.


They do not understand how they are being used and manipulated by those of vast wealth and political power to willingly empty their own pockets and to give a billionaire their last cent.


Oh, and as far as the pap spewed by the right-wing as to how they love 'small businesses', she needs to realize that they have done NOTHING to back up those words with deeds.

The Republican/Teabagger Party has hammered small businesses on behalf of the megacorps every time they are in power.

[Kurovski]

48. Godwins Law has been revoked, so you're on firm-footing, IMO.

The expression "never again" is a call to vigilance, or it's otherwise meaningless.

There are too many parallels at this point in history to ignore how fascism is introduced into a Democracy.

People will still argue it, but I'm just going to keep an eye on those pesky parallels.

[Ikonoklast]

55. I have had this nagging feeling for years, now.

If what is currently transpiring in Michigan and Wisconsin is allowed to stand, my suspicions will be confirmed.

If rule by fiat or executive order overturning the will of the electorate is upheld by the SC, this republic is doomed.

[Uben]

19. Tea BAggers are just the most gullible of republicans.....

...they'll believe anything their told if they like what they hear. That pretty much sums it up. Their ignorance is astounding.
How fucking stupid can one be? My response to them is usually, "You're so ignorant, you don't deserve to be an American." They love that one!

[ladywnch]

20. you cannot educate people who have fully embraced cognitive dissidence

they are ignorant and content to be so. It helps make sense of a world the fundamentaly don't understand becuase they are too ignorant and trying to understand it is just too hard.....takes too much brain power....too much time....and then you're left with having to act once you understand......it's all just too much work for very little payoff......in there tiny little minds. No, it is far easier to blame everyone else for your lot in life just like it is easier to have some crazed, self-proclaimed 'messenger of god' to tell you what to think, feel, and believe. And people looking for easy answers will swallow it everytime.

Sad.

[glinda]

21. There needs to be a study about jumbled brain syndrome. There is an inability

for many people to be able to think straight. Maybe it is all the media's fault but I think there is a general problem here in brain function as well as lack of education.

[liberal N proud]

22. Talking to tea Baggers is like talking to a wall

at least the wall doesn't come back with stupid remarks.

[OHdem10]

23. If she really believes Banks run the country, why does she support

the Party that De-Regulated them thus causing financial
ruin to this country??? This indicates what a poor
job of political education has been done.

[TheKentuckian]

24. How do we reach them? Who gives a fuck?

They should be run over, run through, and ignored like previous generations of dumpsterfires such as the Birchers.

[lonestarnot]

26. With ice water.

[coalition_unwilling]

29. Sometimes retreating to first principles works. For example, ask

him or her if he or she believes in the principle of 'one man, one vote'. It's a simple yes-no question that can serve as a jumping off point to a fuller discussion.

If he or she says that 'No, I don't believe in one man, one vote,' that becomes a way to educate about democratic vs. anti-democratic forms of governance.

If he or she says that 'Yes, I do believe in one man, one vote,' that becomes a way to educate about the power of the vote. Your TPer said the rich would never "allow" higher taxes on themselves, which betrays a profoundly anti-democratic prejudice. A way to talk about this intelligbly is to point out that 1% of the U.S. population control 40% of the nation's productive assets. As a struggling small business person, the TPer should begin to make the connection(s).

[EC]

30. How do we reach these people?

Did you try any approaches while talking to this teabagger? If so did any of your approaches have any impact? Go in the direction that seemed to have a bit of leeway.

[socialist_n_TN]

33. You don't. Not really. As a poster said upthread.......

it's like alchoholism, the person has to WANT to change. Usually they're only receptive when they're going through a cataclysmic life change.

That still doesn't mean you don't argue with them though. You argue to give any listening audience an alternative viewpoint. If a politically naive listener isn't given an alternative, they'll take what they hear mostly as truth. And what they mostly hear, thanks to the MSM are capitalist lies. You can also use arguing with them as a method for honing your own debating skills.

As to how to approach them, I would recommend economic issues. There's a SLIGHT chance to get through to them economically. On social issues, you don't even have that ghost of a chance.

[Faygo Kid]

34. She's about stupid enough to buy a Dick Morris book.

If she can read. What an ignoramus.

[Chorophyll]

35. "She said that she used to be a socialist."

That's kind of hilarious. Wonder what she thinks a socialist is -- anyone who's not a teabagger?

Otherwise, this whole exchange was very sad. The woman is obviously frightened and ignorant. I applaud you for trying, though.

[Odin2005]

36. Civil debate is dead in this country. The other side has gone insane.

There is no compromise with these people, they must simply be crushed.

[texshelters]

37. They have some point correct, like the banks

have a big amount of influence on our government. I don't know if they were going to go racist at that point, but it is a pattern. I blame white folks for the banking crisis! (Just kidding, it's really a class issue). And I do think that a cut on the wealthy that receive Social Security and Medicaid would help, the trick is enforcement. Others agree that we need to eliminate the cap on taxes for social security. http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/stiglitz133/English and that would keep it solvent for 75 years.

So while I think they were half right in stating some problems, they lay the blame in the wrong place and have no viable solutions other than the standard "cut it off" if the arm is wounded.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[JohnnyRingo]

39. Start breaking off random car antennas so they can't listen to AM radio

Your friend sounds like the kind who believes that if she protects the wealthy, one day she'll be one of them and the cycle will repeat with working people continually climbing the ladder and pulling up those behind them.

We know where they get than falsehood.

[walldude]

40. Can't "reach" them.. Thing is..

They are a much smaller number than you think.

They take care of the wealthy so the wealthy makes sure they get all the coverage.

Yesterday's Madison rally is the perfect example. The only reason there was any coverage was because the baggers were there.

[texshelters]

41. The far right uber patriots are a waste of time, however

I have had some productive dialogue with the Ron Paul Republicans, libertarians, and those on the fringe of the conservative movement. I have one friend that is Republican because of her, yes her, anti-choice stance, but in terms of populist economics, we often agree. She has even dropped much of her stereotypes of "liberals".

So, not all is lost.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Arkana]

45. I think you better tell this person to stop drinking the red stuff

in her thermometer.

[LynneSin]

46. So did you ask the unemployed guy how much unemployment did he gather?

How many other social programs did they utilize while they were making no money.

These 2 are the poster children of the stupidity that is the tea party. They speak with one hand and then greedily accept what the government gives them with the other.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

49. Sounds Like She's Watched The "End Of America" Video Too

Right-wingers love that "End of America" video. I checked it out a couple of weeks ago because I was curious just what it was (the radio ads don't tell you what it is, just that you have to watch it because the end of America is coming in 2013 and you have to prepared). What a complete joke.

The video is basically a right-wing hack telling people that America's financial system is about to collapse and they need to start buying gold and silver right now. It contradicts itself several times, spews blatant, verifiable lies, and uses other kinds of "strong" evidence such as this little gem: at one point, he quotes some financial "expert" who says that the best sign that a Government is just about to devalue its currency is the head of the banking system will publically state that they're NOT devaluing their currenct, and then he shows quotes from Tim Geithner stating that America is not going to be devaluing the dollar, and BAM! There you go! Absolute PROOF that the U.S. is just about to devalue the dollar. It's a complete joke.

Not to mention the fact that he states right in the video that the dollar is losing value because investors are choosing to spend their money on other things, like silver and gold. And his solution? Go spend YOUR money on silver and gold. So, he basically decries the fact that the dollar is losing value, and then encourages people to go do the very thing that he claims is causing the dollar to lose value. Pretty good plan. Predict something bad, then tell people to go do the thing that will CAUSE the bad thing to happen, then sit back and claim victory.

Also, the guy's a certified snake oil salesman who's been sued for BILLIONS because he's nothing more than a scam artist. Just Google him and you'll see. But really, when you hear this guy touting his ability to predict the financial future, and then see that his FIRST website was called, "End of America '11," and now the current website is called, "End of America '13," that's really all you need to know.

That's why every time I meet some panicky right-winger warning everyone to go out and buy gold and silver (I've got a friend who's spending every dime he can spare on silver), I just laugh and shake my head and say, "Watched that scam video, didn't you?"

[Dokkie]

51. You think

the uber rich care about their social security and medicare? I think your tea bagger friend maybe right by suggesting some sort of means testing for medicare and social security. They are more likely to tolerate that than a small increase in their taxes which may run in the millions over the years. Hey they dont receive food stamps or section 8 but you dont see them bitching about it. If you just disregard their ideas without much thought or explanation, they would do the same to yours. Also I am sure they maybe eluding to the Federal Reserve when talking about banks which with their secrecy and practice of lending money to favorite banks at 0 or near 0% rates, its not hard to make up a conspiracy theory about them.

So next time, I suggest you extend an olive branch by finding something you agree with them about e.g bank bailouts, Fed reserve etc and go from there. Nobody wants a lecture from the opposing side

[yardwork]

57. I disagree with means testing for SS and Medicare. Everybody pays into them.

Raising taxes on those in very high income brackets - especially income from capital gains - is a fair and reasonable approach to our pressing need to raise revenue. Denying social security and Medicare is a very bad idea. Splitting the wealthy off from everybody else will guarantee the eventual loss of social security and Medicare. We're seeing it already, as the super rich are now so wealthy they don't care about social security or Medicare - and we see where that's getting us.

[Enthusiast]

52. Well.

Belief in scams, anti-Semitic and racist conspiracy theories, confusion and gullibility, all playing on the fears and economic anxieties of people already living at or over the edge is exactly how the Nazis gained control of Germany in the 1930s.

[butterfly77]

53. In other words...

I don't like that there is a black man in the whitehouse,whom I will never vote for because of his skin color so,I will make up every excuse in the book to blame him for what the republiCONS have done to this country for decades,along with some so called Dems.

[krabigirl]

59. Lol, if these people said cutting the three wars, DHS, drug war etc were what we should cut ro

perhaps people would think they had some sense. It is sick how people who claim to be fiscally conservative or care about our budget, have no problem with these things. They should just admit that they don't mind bloated budgets and debt, they just hate the poor, disabled, and the sick. They have no problem with tons of money being thrown at the warfare and police state.

[KelleyKramer]

60. You need to give up on that

After 8 years of Republican rule resulting in a total disaster, and then the huge Bush bank 'socialist' bailout is not enough proof.

This person cannot be reached.

If you want to do something you need to look elsewhere

There are huge worker and middle class fights right now that you could put your energy into

[Arkansas Granny]

65. They are happy with their ignorance and don't want to hear any facts

that don't agree with what they have been told that they should believe. After all, Rush, Glenn and Sarah would never steer them wrong.