Paul Ryan made a surprising comment this morning on Face the Nation..

[kentuck]

At least, to me it was a very surprising admission.

Bob Shieffer was questioning him about asking for more taxcuts on top of the privatization of Medicare? Ryan said their aim was to keep it "revenue neutral" after they closed many of the present loopholes for the wealthy. That is why they would need to lower the tax rate to 25%??

So he admitted that the present 35% rate on the wealthy is a bunch of baloney.

My question is why can't the Democrats agree to compromise with the Ryan plan? Let's close the loopholes that Congressman Ryan recommends.

If we do that, any further cuts or changes will be minimal. We will not have to take the drastic measures that the Repubs suggest.

Furthermore, the President could continue to give the "middle class" (under $250,000 yeah, right!) their Bush taxcuts as he promised. If the Congress could cut that in half, they could have a real plan.

[midnight]

1. so what is the present tax rate on the wealthy?

[kentuck]

2. It depends.

Somewhere between 0-25%, depending on their tax lawyers and lobbyists.

[FrenchieCat]

3. What are the "loopholes" he proposes closing, do you know?

My understanding is that he won't say.
So the question is....why won't he say?

[kentuck]

5. The devil is in the details..

I'm sure that is not something they have given a lot of thought to. Maybe they pass the loophole reforms or maybe not? What difference would it make if they could cut the top rate to 25% and dismantle the Medicare program as we have known it?

I heard some commentator say the other day that the loopholes cost the Treasury more than SS and Medicare combined? Wow! That sort of puts it into perspective if correct.

[mrmpa]

34. I think some of the loopholes he's talking about are

no more deductions for motrgage interest, donations to charities, student loan interest, "loopholes" of this nature. Something that would hurt the middle class and not affect those in top income bracket.

[Gabi Hayes]

6. the REALLY rich (average income of the 400 richest=$344 MILLION):

about 16.7%

http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/statements/2011/feb/25/sheldon-whitehouse/whitehouse-says-richest-400-taxpayers-taxed-lower-/

note that this story tried to make it seem as though sen. Whitehouse's claim was only "mostly" true, because the checkers didn't want to include Medicare or SSI taxes in the tax calculations!

wonder why....cause the rich's SSI tax is capped at about $108 or so.

that percentage is what they actually pay, not the 35% they're supposed to pay, before they reduce their actual taxes by more than half

[whosinpower]

4. The Ryan plan is dead in the water

If a person bothered to read the budget - by 2021 the debt ceiling will be DOUBLE what it is now.

So - in terms of fiscal responsibility - there is none to be had.

[kentuck]

7. So they are surprised that anyone would question their "plan"?

As if they had the right to present such a pile of crap but the President had no right to offer an alternative plan or to criticize their masterful work of art??

[Warren Stupidity]

8. Huh? Ryan's plan kills medicare.

You wish to compromise with that? Just cripple medicare?

[kentuck]

12. NO!

I meant we could compromise on the loopholes that Rep Ryan mentions. We could agree with him to close the loopholes. That would be agreeing with part of his plan. So they cannot say we do not compromise. :-)

[Snoutport]

14. it is all connected....take it all or leave it all...

we don't get to pick what part of his budget we want....

[kentuck]

15. Why not?

Why can't we say we agree with you on closing the loopholes for the wealthy. Granted, they don't have to agree to it and, most likely, never would. However, much of this whole charade is about PR. If the Democrats can show, thru Paul Ryan's plan, that the wealthy have all these trillions of loopholes, it is only to our advantage to point it out, whether they agree to it or not. This is chess. We have to play at least a couple of moves ahead... :-)

[bluestate10]

18. Democrats are loath to, but democrats will need to put SS and Medicare

out as cut targets, or risk no only losing the budget battle, but elections for generations to come. The majority of the republican party comes from red southern state, about 25-33% of republicans come from blue or nominally blue states, including figure like Brown, The republican Senators from Maine and New Hampshire, republicans from Illinois, Ohio and even Ryan himself. If democrats like Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer and Elijah Cummings keep reflexively fighting against any cuts to SS and Medicare, they are going to take the democratic party down a rabbit hole. Red state citizens benefit from SS and Medicare overwhelmingly, far in excess to any contributions they made to the plans. Democrats, who are a nearly 95% blue state party now, must turn the battle so that carving of SS and Medicare come not out of the hides to blue state elders, but out of that of red state elders, who contributed little to SS and Medicare funds to start. Democrats must back up their move by forcing blue state republicans like Brown, Snowe, Collins, Aylotte (sp), Kirk, Ryan and other republicans from blue states to vote for their state citizens and not with their party line. Democrats must be aggressive with the soundbite game and make blue state republicans that vote against their citizen's interests pay with bad publicity, and set those republicans up for electoral defeat. I am afraid that what will happen is Pelosi, in particular, Hoyer, Cummings and Reid will unintentionally protect blue state republicans from votes that will damage those republicans, while allowing those republicans to use soundbites to further separate blue state voters from democratic candidates.

[bluestate10]

16. I agree with you. Democrats must frame this battle so that compromises

are happening on issues like defense funding, farm subsidies, the oil depletion allowance, and not on core and effective anti poverty items like food stamps, aid to children and head Start. I would put SS and Medicare on the table, but as a democrat, I would frame the battle in such a way that fighting it would pit blue state republicans against red state republicans, that can be done if Pelosi uses imagination instead of reflexively fighting to protect SS and Medicare when it is clear unified republicans have the votes to ram through toxic bills.

[kentuck]

17. Right on..

When we have advantages, we have to use them.

[sabrina 1]

30. Why do you care what they say? These people are

insane! They don't care if Americans die!! Why can't people get this through their heads?

You do not compromise with insane liars. And everyone should know that there will be no compromising with them. Their ideas border on being criminal.

We, most of us, did NOT elected Democrats so they could 'compromise' with these evil, and they are evil, puppets of Big Business. We elected them so we could STOP them.

No compromising with these people. Let THEM do the compromising.

[kentuck]

31. It's not really a compromise Sabrina...

Because the Repubs would not accept closing the loopholes for nothing in return. But the battle is for the minds and hearts of the American people. If we lose that, we lose everything. We have to outsmart them and not think in just simple black and white terms. They are trying to maneuver us into defeat. They want to destroy Medicare and the entire New Deal. Simply saying they are evil will do little to persuade your neighbors.

[sabrina 1]

33. Even my Republican faimily members are now

beginning to see how off the wall these people are. And they do not agree with getting rid of Medicare.

There is absolutely no reason to compromise with them. Loopholes SHOULD be closed but not traded for something even worse, which seems to be how things have been working in these 'compromises'.

The people are on the side of Demcorats on these issues. Just put up a real fight and do not give them credibility they do not deserve. By even suggesting compromise with them.

Hopefully they can all be removed in the next election and that should be the goal.

[barbtries]

9. because it's bullshit

it would in my opinion be a proven mistake to compromise. the republicans will fuck the country up even more given any kind of chance.

[mmonk]

10. They will come to the same position with the only difference

being the rich will pay about 3 or 4 % more. The parties are merging ideologically despite the tea party movement the billionaires created. I personally am against lower across the board taxes with no deductions. It's not going to work.

[DCBob]

11. The GOPers are going to have to compromise.. they know the Ryan budget is a political bomb...

Both sides with compromise but I am sure the final budget will look nothing like the original Ryan plan.

[bluestate10]

21. The GOP will push the compromise as far as they can to social engineer.

We will again see PP and other programs held hostage in a never ending game of chicken. As long as democrats play the game of chicken, republicans will get their budget priorities in negotiations without giving up any concessions. Democrats must go along and put SS and Medicare on the table for cuts, but craft the battle over those cuts in a way that will be toxic for republicans. Democrats must force republicans to put chips on the table, like farm subsidies, the oil depletion allowance, corporate tax loopholes, tax rates for the wealthiest americans. Whether democrats like it or not, SS and Medicare are on course for cuts, what democrats must do is force those cuts onto red state elders where they belong and not on blue state elders, who paid overwhelmingly more into the programs than even the most affluent red state citizens. If democrats allow republicans to screw blue state elders by concentrating SS and Medicare cuts on them and do not hold blue state republicans accountable, the battle is lost. This poster is not confident that Pelosi, Hoyer, Cummings, Claybourne, Reid and other democratic Congressional leaders have the emotional toughness and savvy to win this battle, they will force compromising into Obama's lap again, after handing Obama a shit sandwich with which to compromise.

[kentuck]

22. How do they do this?

"what democrats must do is force those cuts onto red state elders where they belong and not on blue state elders.."

By the way, I agree with the general direction of your post. Perhaps you should be working on the next campaign? :-)

[bluestate10]

27. Salaries in blue states are twice as high as in red states.

SS and Medicare taxes track to salaries, blue state earners pay in twice as much up to their limit for SS. But payouts on retirement are not twice as high to blue state seniors. What democrats must push for is that payouts reflect pay-in and if cuts are to be made, those cuts must come from elders that are getting proportionally more than they paid in. Red state republican Representatives and Senators must be forced to accept proportional cuts to SS and Medicare benefits, OR, put items on the table for cuts that they successfully are keeping out of the discussion. If democrats craft the battle correctly, their citizens will view them as fighting for what is right, while red state seniors will get to see republicans that they vote for as what they are, corporation tax protecting, wealthy protecting shills.

[DCBob]

29. Yes, that makes sense. Except I still think the Dems may have the upper hand now.

The GOPers overreached with the Ryan budget and now have to back peddle to overcome the perception that they want kill Medicare, Medicaid and other good social programs.. which is essentially what they want but they dont want it to sound that way. That will be difficult task.

[Snoutport]

13. because their idea of compromising is to hold everything hostage and try to cut it

he is only trying to sound sane...but he has shown he has no intention of compromising at all.

[bluestate10]

24. Exactly. And if democratic leaders like Pelosi continue to have near

coronaries anytime SS and Medicare are mentioned for cuts, Ryan and the likes of Snowe, Collins, Aylotte, Brown, Kirk will win without having to shed any blood. SS and Medicare cuts must be forced to happen where any cuts from the program should happen, to red state seniors, who put little into the programs to start. Crafting SS and Medicare cuts right will force red state republicans to put items like farm aid, the oil depletion allowance, deep water dredging in sandy ports, corporate tax breaks for relocating corporations, ect, on the cut table to save their own asses.

[reformist2]

19. If it's revenue neutral (which I don't believe), then it shouldn't be in the deficit reduction plan.

[kentuck]

20. They want to keep revenues paid by the wealthy the same...

So if they closed some of these "loopholes", they would have to cut the top rate to 25%. See how simple it is??

[reformist2]

23. I thought they said it was a crisis - it's a weird time to talk about revenue-neutral tax reform.

[kentuck]

25. look deeper...

They don't want to cut the loopholes. They want to cut the top taxrate to 25%. More then anything, they want to roll back the Great Society and the New Deal. They don't give a rat's ass about the deficit. This is all part of the script you must present when you say there is a "crisis". If they can convince enough of a gullible population, they can win the game.

[FreeJoe]

26. One man's tax incentive is another man's loophole

What are the biggest income tax loopholes? Mortgage interest deduction, Property/Income/Sales tax deduction, 401(k) and IRA contributions, business expenses, getting income in the form of qualified dividends or long term capital gains, and things like that. When people hear "loophole", they think of the complex accounting tricks that the super rich do, but the real money is in the basic things that lots of people do to keep their tax bill down.

[kentuck]

28. The loopholes account for over a trillion dollars per year in revenue.

It is not a measly amount.

[FreeJoe]

39. I don't disagree.

I don't disagree. It is a lot of money. You'll get lots of people to jump on the bandwagon of eliminating tax loopholes because they'll conjure images of Jeff Skilling using high paid accounts and complex schemes to squirrel away money.

When they find out that you are taking away their deductions for charitable contributions, mortgage interest, 401(k)s and IRAs, 529 college savings plans, mileage expenses, energy efficiency upgrades, medical expenses, state income tax deductions, property tax deductions and the like, they'll change their opinion quickly. These tax loopholes were created because they are popular and appeal to voting groups. They won't want to see them go away. They'll love the idea of lower rates and of getting rid of the tax breaks that other people use, but they'll complain loudly when you come for their tax breaks.

[Mrs. Ted Nancy]

32. Income Tax Form from 1913

GROSS INCOME.

This statement must show in the proper spaces the entire amount of gains, profits, and income received by or accrued to the individual
from all sources during the year specified on page 1.

DESCRIPTION OF INCOME.


1. Total amount derived from salaries, wages, or compensation for
personal service of whatever kind and in whatever form paid

2. Total amount derived from professions, vocations, businesses,
trade, commerce, or sales or dealings in property, whether real
or personal, growing out of the ownership or use of interest
in real or personal property, including bonds, stocks, etc.

3. Total amount derived from rents and from interest on notes,
mortgages, and securities (other than reported on lines 5
and 6)

4. Total amount of gains and profits derived from partnership
business, whether the same be divided and distributed or not

5. Total amount of fixed and determinable annual gains, profits,
and income derived from interest upon bonds and mortgages
or deeds of trust, or other similar obligations of corporations,
joint-stock companies or associations, and insurance companies,
whether payable annually or at shorter or longer periods

6. Total amount of income derived from coupons, checks, or bills
of exchange for or in payment of interest upon bonds issued
in foreign countries and upon foreign mortgages or like obligations
(not payable in the United States), and also from
coupons, checks, or bills of exchange for or in payment of any
dividends upon the stock or interest upon the obligations of
foreign corporations, associations, and insurance companies
engaged in business in foreign countries

7. Total amount of income received from fiduciaries

8. Total amount of income derived from any source whatever, not
specified or entered elsewhere on this page

GENERAL DEDUCTIONS.

1.The amount of necessary expenses actually paid in carrying on business, but not including
business expenses of partnerships, and not including personal, living, or family expenses

2. All interest paid within the year on personal indebtedness of taxpayer

3. All national, State, county, school, and municipal taxes paid within the year (not including
those assessed against local benefits)

4. Losses actually sustained during the year incurred in trade or arising from fires, storms, or
shipwreck, and not compensated for by insurance or otherwise

5. Debts due which have been actually ascertained to be worthless and which have been charged
off within the year

6. Amount representing a reasonable allowance for the exhaustion, wear, and tear of property
arising out of its use or employment in the business, not to exceed, in the case of mines, 5
per cent of the gross value at the mine of the output for the year for which the computation
is made, but no deduction shall be made for any amount of expense of restoring property or
making good the exhaustion thereof, for which an allowance is or has been made

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/1913.pdf

[blunderbuss]

35. why can't the Democrats agree to compromise with the Ryan plan?

cause we've compromised enough. plus remember rule number 1 re: repubs, they are deceivers. they believe the end justifies the means so that gives them the freedom to say whatever in order to get us to sway in our position. to say things like this My question is why can't the Democrats agree to compromise with the Ryan plan?

[kentuck]

36. Sorry that my facetious use of the word "compromise" was misunderstood.

I will try to be better in explaining it the next time.

If we take their idea of closing the loopholes, we can call it a "compromise". We win. They lose.

[yurbud]

37. Ryan doesn't want to close the loopholes and keep it revenue neutral

He wants to give the rich a tax break and further ''starve the beast'' of government.

Anything he says beyond that is talking point bullshit.

[kentuck]

38. Yep.

That is probably true.