I don't care how much a woman drinks. If she says "No," it's rape.

[Stinky The Clown]

Three of us sat here and watched tonight's 60 Minutes. They had a story of a young woman who had attended Pacifica University. She was a basketball pplayer. One evening, in the aftermath of a party, three of the men's team raped her in their apartment.

Long story short, they pretty much got away with it. Rape is a devastating crime.

Incredibly, the university's judicial board found it to be questionable that the woman didn't consent.

Appalling.

[Donnachaidh]

1. thank you Stinky -- k&r! n/t

[Little Star]

2. How right you are!!!!

[femmocrat]

3. I watched it too.

I agree, and I believe her, but legally she had no evidence. None of the young men turned on the others, so... it was "she said, they said." The other young woman wouldn't even show up for the hearing. And it did not seem like the other woman was raped by the same men, right? So the two cases were unrelated except for the location of the "Townhouses."

[Mister Ed]

4. Hard to imagine how it could even be a question

Can you imagine getting mugged and robbed, and then being asked, "Well, what were you wearing at the time? Had you been drinking?"

[Recursion]

9. Mugging is comparatively easy to prove

There are few cases where people consent to give their wallet to someone; there are cases where people consent to have sex with someone. Proving a sex act was rape is generally not easy to do which is what makes working on a campus disciplinary committee so depressing.

[Mister Ed]

17. In either crime...

...is there a certain blood-alcohol level or style of apparel that absolves the otherwise guilty? If not, then why would either of these be a legitimate line of questioning?

[Recursion]

19. BAC only makes rape easier to prove

If the only evidence available is the testimony of both parties, that doesn't even establish preponderance of the evidence. In some cases BAC can establish that the victim was too drunk to consent (which leaves the troubling question of what happens when the rapist is equally drunk).

[P. Galore]

5. Yep. Laws protect drinkers, too. nt

[blondeatlast]

52. Indeed they do. Thank you. nt

[P. Galore]

106. You are very welcome. nt

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DonCoquixote]

7. Let me put it to you this way

It does not matter, period. If someone does not want sex, they cannot have sex forced upon them, period, end, of , story.

It does not matter if said person is someone that makes Gene Simmons/Madonna look like a virgin, if they want to do (censored xxx rated act) 24/7, Monday through Saturday, and do not want to do it on Sunday, they have every right to be left the hell alone on Sunday!

[seabeyond]

8. i was listening to npr story of the yale sexual harassment case. they had a couple women

from different groups discussing the situation in colleges and how the harassment and intimidation is allowed. one of the women stated that the commons area of the campus the young men are watching porn, laughing... really graphic out there porn, making it unwelcoming for women.

campuses dont seem to be doing the job in making it woman friendly.

[DURHAM D]

11. Yale has managed to make it adult (male or female) unfriendly.

[seabeyond]

15. ? nt

[DURHAM D]

25. All the boys are acting like adolescent juveniles.

No young adults seem to be attending the institution.

[closeupready]

72. Of course. Our young people today are poorly socialized.

One needs only spend a few minutes in the company of young people to realize that their parents are doing unacceptable jobs at fulfilling their responsibilties.

[October]

83. If they're in college -- they're adults and the parents' job is (sadly) mostly finished.

[closeupready]

88. Right, but after 18 years, well-raised children act like monkeys?

That's my point - children raised to be responsible adults ACT like responsible adults, with maybe some growing pains. Today, seems like not only have they not been raised well, they are defiant about not growing up.

[LibDemAlways]

85. 40 years ago when I was a teenager the high schools accepted some

of the responsibility for teaching socialization skills by providing informal dances and other "fun" activities for the students. Girls and boys mingled in a safe, chaperoned environment and social interaction was common. Today high schools see their mission as providing only academics and sports. The social component has gone missing and it's very evident in the way the sexes interact - or don't interact. Parents can talk a blue streak about what's appropriate and what isn't, but too many of these kids don't have any real world experience until they get to college and find themselves in situations they don't have the experience to handle.

[closeupready]

89. Right. It is sad, indeed.

That this direction is our future. :(

[Odin2005]

35. Watching hardcore porn in the commons? Good Lord!!!

:wow:

If students were caught doing that my Uni (Minnesota State Moorhead) they would be in deep shit! :grr:

[seabeyond]

37. good to hear.

how long ago was this you went to college. i am really concerned if this is becoming a norm, or particular colleges.... or an unusual. i would hate to see it a norm.

[Odin2005]

41. I'm still going.

I lost eligibility for Pell Grants back in '06 because of changes in my parents' income so I have been saving up for tuition and paying class by class. Fortunately I will become eligible again when I turn 25 here in a couple weeks.

No way in Hell am I taking out student loans.

[seabeyond]

44. i hear ya dude.

with student loans. good for you. i am glad to hear it is not acceptable at your school. i am going to have to ask around, so i can get comfortable again about colleges. thanks for letting me know.

[Odin2005]

45. MSUM is a very good and very cheap school.

IMO it's better than a lot of the larger schools, it's always the profs, not TAs, teaching the classes, and there is an excellent Biosciences program, complete with undergrad research.

[anneboleyn]

103. Excellent, Odin. Keep going. I worked hard for my degrees but it's so worth it.

I fought to get fellowships and scholarships (I went to two very expensive private schools for my graduate degrees) and it was very hard but those degrees mean a great deal to me. Be proud of the work you are putting into your degree. You'll always have that great achievement. And that is great about the Pell grants. Those grants will be a tremendous help.

[Odin2005]

108. Thanks!

[anneboleyn]

105. Wow. I went to Berkeley as an undergraduate, and I can't imagine

such a situation in our dorms. Maybe the environment has changed, but this would not have been welcome. I mean, people were very open about sexuality, but not in a way that would make one group feel like a hostile atmosphere was being created.

I loved Berkeley (Berzerkly as my father always said proudly) and one of the many reasons was because students were careful about creating an open, tolerant, welcoming environment. Not to say that this was always a successful effort, but in general this was the case.

[seabeyond]

107. good to hear.

i would imagine it is a recent. youth and college about ='s sexually open, lol. and berkley, ahhhh, i miss calif. but i am glad to hear this. how long ago where you there. i dont see it at berkley, there is a whole, oh, bohemian, yin yang thing i feel in that area. ( i miss calif, lol)

it is something i am going to pay attention to, though. a school that allows that environment isnt one i want to give my money to. it says something about the overall running of the school. and having boys growing up in texas, i want them to go to a university that is more mutually respective of fellow man, that includes women.

thanks for posting

[Terra Alta]

10. I think it's raping a drunk woman is even more horrible than raping a sober woman.

Knowing women are more venerable while drunk, and it makes it easier for men to take advantage of her and overpower her. Very disgusting, if you ask me.

[madinmaryland]

12. Thanks for the heads up, Stinky. It will be on here in about 12 minutes so

I should be able to see it. I'm still in Washington State.

I just finished watching the Celtics pull a win out over the Knicks in the last few seconds!!

[MellowDem]

13. Most women don't report the rapes...

on campus. It is a lot of hassle to them personally and hard to prove as well many times. It's a hard area of the law, because it's often done on little proof and the consequences for a guilty sentance are so extreme, you don't want to sentance someone on a "hunch" or on a he said/she said.

Seems the only thing that will lessen rapes is a change in the culture, since women don't seem to be reporting them very often, and there isn't a lot more that can be done to incentivize them, not to mention the fact that it is hard to prove in many instances. Then again, a very small percentage of men do the vast majority of rapes, so even a change in the broader culture may not do much, but it could help.

[aikoaiko]

14. In principle, of course, but its the proving of fact that is so difficult.

And when a person is truly drunk, I'm not sure "no" is even required.

[franzia99]

16. A good thing to do is fight (if she feels safe doing so) and leave marks on him as proof for later

That'll help to prove lack of consent

[Hippo_Tron]

21. My general saying about this is that sex isn't a spectator sport

If one of the people involved isn't participating it also means that they aren't consenting.

[seabeyond]

23. i told my boys would behoove them for the woman to be as enthusiastic as they are

for both their sakes.

[PavePusher]

26. Not at all true.

Sex is whatever any number of consenting adults agree to.

If two people agree to have sex while a third watches of her/his own free will... that's consent.

[Hippo_Tron]

30. You have a point

[Odin2005]

42. I agree.

And besides, if you are able to enjoy sex while your partner isn't you are a selfish asshole.

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. Hear, hear. nt

[PavePusher]

18. Part of the problem was the lack of reporting....

and lack of physical evidence.

Sadly, I think this is something they need to start teaching in schools.

Report.
Get to hospital.
Get a rape kit done.

If I knew that any of my friends or aquaintences had raped anyone, their knees would shortly be able to bend backwards.

[aquart]

20. Whatever happened to teaching young men that gentlemen do NOT

take advantage of intoxicated women?

[raccoon]

49. If you are suggesting that this didn't used to happen, think again.

It happened in previous decades, except it wasn't reported.

SOME men don't care a rat's arse whether the woman consents or not. Whether she's drunk or not.

[aquart]

50. I'm certain that is not what I said.

And this is not a discussion about the rape of sober women.

[raccoon]

51. The way you phrased it, "Whatever happened to teaching young men..." sounds as if

that's what you were implying.

[closeupready]

74. Gentlemen are pansies, real men are more like apes (hehe).

:sarcasm: And I'm only being half-sarcastic because you need watch young people go at it in public these days to see that they aren't being socialized by their parents the way they should be.

[white_wolf]

22. I have a question on this issue.

Is it rape if the woman agrees? Of course it is rape if she says no, but what if she says yes or even both parties are drunk?

[JVS]

24. .

:popcorn:

[Recursion]

27. There is such a thing as "too drunk to consent"

As in, saying "yes" with a BAC of .20 isn't "consent". The problem is what happens if both people are that drunk.

The prevalence of drunken sex on campus makes rape difficult to prove. But preventing the mostly-mythical specter of false allegations shouldn't, IMO, be our priority.

[white_wolf]

29. Thank you for that.

I do agree that there is a point where you can get so drunk that you might as well have passed out, and are no longer in control of your actions, it is problematic if both parties are at that point though.

[progressoid]

28. Yep - pretty much what my wife and I said.

Appalling.

[deaniac21]

31. Well that isn't 100% true. I have a couple of lovers that enjoy

playing the rape fantasy with me. We use safe words and everything but I am definitely yelling No, No!

[Recursion]

33. As fun as power exchange can be...

...I'm afraid this only murks the waters.

[anneboleyn]

68. Feminists in the D/s community write at length about this -- they argue that women in this community

(this includes lesbian D/s relationships as well as hetero D/s relationships and gay D/s relationships) have clearly established "covenants" with their partners, then they engage in role-playing and fantasy scenarios. The fundamental rule is always that two consenting adults agree to the role-playing, and then there are rules to stop the role-playing immediately if one partner became uncomfortable with the play (safe words and other cues). They argue this is nothing like a real-life rape situation, in which a person is being forced against her (or his) will.

[Recursion]

69. Well, one interesting thing about the fantasy...

...is how the s is completely in control of the situation (and for that matter the D) at all times; particularly given the numbers of Ds versus ss out there.

[ieoeja]

80. "Good girls" in the Bible Belt are far murkier.

I knew a woman with three children. All born in wedlock. All, she claimed, by her husband raping her. Even married, she is too "good" to ever want sex like some bad woman might.


So when a "good girl" says "no" ... "no" means "no" ... except when it means, "YES!!!!".


My solution to this problem was quite simple. I moved out of the (non-)fucking Bible Belt. Cause I refused sex with any woman who said "no". Which, I am told, pissed off more than one of these head cases.

[Odin2005]

90. Sorry, but no means no, no matter what.

the "when a woman says no she means maybe and when she says maybe she means yes" notion is an excuse for rape.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. In essence, you are using a different language.

In which "no" doesn't mean no, but the safe word does. So, bottom line, you aren't actually saying no.

[anneboleyn]

100. Yes, good point. And ss (as Recursion notes) are in total control of the "scene"

The conventional narrative is that the D is dominant (obvious I know) and the s is the submissive member of the pair, but as Recursion noted, in the D/s community it is a rule that the s is in control of the "scene" by setting the boundaries before anything actually takes place. And "no" (or the safe word in this case as you point out) stops the scene immediately. And a D is expected to make well the situation, if, say, the s was upset by something the D did during the scene. This is part of the rule of being a D, to take responsibility at all times for her/his actions.

This is a good piece on the D/s relationship, noting that the s should firmly set the boundaries:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1152516/the_dominant_submissive_relationship.html

[madinmaryland]

32. INTERESTING how this is about three African American men having sex with a WHITE woman.

nt

Why is nothing said about this part of the story. FEAR the BLACK man. :grr:

[PavePusher]

34. Uh? At least one of them looked white to me.

Granted, I was listening more than watching, so I may well be wrong.

[madinmaryland]

38. "looked white"?? WTF?

[PavePusher]

47. I glanced at the screen very briefly. The picture in the middle appeared to me to be a caucasian.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

What is the angst here?

[WatsonT]

36. Rape if the story is accurate

not having sex.

[seabeyond]

again. thank you. an excellent point. nt

[madinmaryland]

40. I am NOT condoning rape. Something just seems a bit curious about

three African American men who are on a small campus that is predominantly white getting accused of a crime.

[WatsonT]

43. Doesn't make it untrue

[Stinky The Clown]

56. Sorry, but this isn't a story about race.

I don't get where their race had a damned thing to do with anything. They had privelege afforded by their athletic ability, but where does race come into it?

Here's a little test you can do on yourself when you hear such stories on the teevee. Ask yourself if you heard the same story on the radio, would race have been an issue.

As to your "Why is nothing said about this part of the story. FEAR the BLACK man. :grr:" maybe because it isn't worth being a "part of the story."

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. If she's had enough to drink, even if she doesn't say "no" it's rape. nt

[kelly1mm]

48. What if the 'he' in the senario had a similar BAC - is she commiting rape?t

What if they both had a similar high BAC - no rape or both are commiting rape?

[houstonintc]

54. interesting point..

Would like an answer to that one.

My gut says that if both are "too drunk to consent" then they are by technicality both "rapists".

However I might be one to say sex while drunk shouldn't fall under the umbrella term of rape. Rape is a pretty heinous crime that conjures many images in the public's mind.

[WatsonT]

55. General consensus seems to be

that with men consent is assumed. With women it must be explicitly stated.

It is a double standard.

[RaleighNCDUer]

57. Not too difficult -

It is rape, because she was unable to consent.
His punishment for the crime would be mitigated by the 'diminished capacity' of his own condition, possibly reducing it from 1st degree sexual assault to 2nd degree sexual assault. He does less time, shorter probation, and possibly avoids being put on a sexual predator list.

A second offense, however, would not be treated so leniently, as he had the previous incident to reflect on before getting so intoxicated again.

Like the difference between losing you license for a year on the first DWI, and for life on the 3rd.

[ieoeja]

58. What about her punishment?

I assume you would want the woman's jail time to be shorter, etc?

[RaleighNCDUer]

59. Huh?

I don't know where you are from, but in this country we don't jail women for being drunk, except in public, or for being raped.

[ieoeja]

60. You said, "sex with a drunk is rape". Scenario you were asked, "what if the man was drunk."

By your defintion "sex with a drunk person is rape," she is guilty of raping the man.

Given your response to the scenario, "the man should get less punishment," I assume you would want both individuals to get less time. Or in your country, do only men get lesser punishment?

[datan]

61. um

the post you were replying to was asking what if both women and men were equally drunk and if there's a double standard.
the fact that you didn't even think of the possibility that the man could be getting raped by the woman as he was unable to consent shows that the double standard does exist.

[RaleighNCDUer]

63. It's not a matter of a double standard -

it is a matter of physiology.

I do not believe a woman can rape a man. She's not built for it.

If a man does not consent, and is unwilling, there's no way a woman CAN force him to fuck her. If he is really unwilling, his equipment won't work.

[ieoeja]

71. Then explain your original comment.

"If she's had enough to drink, even if she doesn't say 'no' it's rape."

Your statement says it is rape, simply because the victim is drunk. Yet, you claim a woman can not rape a man. Your "won't work" misconception is a common one, so I can understand that mistake. But I'm sure you know that men can get drunk.

So what is it about a woman being drunk that makes it rape, but that does not apply to a man getting drunk?

[RaleighNCDUer]

86. OK, enlighten me. HOW does a woman rape a man?

Be as technical and graphic as you like - because I can't figure it out. How does she rape him and force him to stick his cock in her?

Men can rape men. Women can, statutorially, rape underage males. But how the fuck does a woman rape a man?

[houstonintc]

87. I showed in #84 with a cited source:

"Much like female erectile response and contrary to popular opinion, male erectile response is involuntary"

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t60447681m7531l2/?p=6d3fd72b5d2d42a3a234d56204f59c51">Source

In spite of common popular belief, we males actually have very little control over erectile responses. It is actually involuntary.

If the erectile response is the base means by which we judge consent then, technically, we can judge that woman are consenting because they likewise exhibit similar involuntary responses.

"A woman's physiological response to sexual contact is involuntary. In some cases, women can become physically aroused, produce natural lubrication, and even experience orgasms against their will during rape."

http://www.jcfmjournal.org/article/S1353-1131(03)00153-6/abstract">Source

[RaleighNCDUer]

92. What does that have to do with the OP?

The OP was about a woman being too drunk to say "no".

Some people twisted that shit into men being too drunk to say "no" - and there it veered into fantasy land. If a guy is too drunk to give consent, the he will be too drunk to get or sustain an erection - that is one of the effects of alcohol. Even at much lower doses, it inhibits the libido while, frustratingly, enhancing the desire.

So yeah, a woman can rape a man, but NOT under the circumstances as posited by the OP, by me, or by the person who responded to me. Put alcohol in the mix and the physiological responses change. IOW, get somebody so blind drunk that he doesn't know what he's doing, and he will not be able to be raped by a woman. Groped, molested, fondled, whatever, yes. Raped, as in actually having sex, no.

IMO, this subthread is a bullshit excuse-making for raping drunk women, and it is disgusting.

[houstonintc]

94. Being too drunk is the point...

If a woman is too drunk to say no, isn't a man likewise too drunk to say no? Are they then both guilty of rape?

If to people are drunk, and fuck, but are too drunk to consent then both are charged with rape? Right?

You are resorting to insane hyperboly here. If a woman is drunk and consents while drunk to sex, the man is guilty of rape... but if a man is drunk and consents to sex and has sex the woman is not guilty of a thing?

If two drunk people have sex are they both guilty of rape?

They must be since anything less is pure sexist bullshit.

[RaleighNCDUer]

95. For you to not get what I'm saying, either you have never been that drunk

or you've never had sex.

You've certainly never tried to have sex while being so drunk that you didn't know what you were doing.

Admittedly, I have. It doesn't work. Believe me.

[houstonintc]

96. Yet people do it...

I am not a drinker,

However your basic premise was

" If she's had enough to drink, even if she doesn't say "no" it's rape. nt"

That was your original statement. So one is guilty of rape just for having sex with a woman who is drunk or has been drinking.

The question was posed, does this go both ways. If a man has severally impaired judgement due to alcohol, is the she involved guilty of rape?

If both are under the influence of alcohol when they have sex are both guilty of rape?

If a sober woman gets a man who is under the influence into bed is she guilty of rape?

Or is this just a one way street?

[RaleighNCDUer]

97. It very literally is a one way street.

Perhaps I was not explicit enough. When I said "enough to drink" the implication was "so much that she was incapacitated". A man who is intoxicated to that level will be, literally, incapacitated - he can't get it up. Therefore, the opposite, with her bing the aggressor, is impossible.

Any many who is still funtional enough to get it up would be functional enough to decline sex if he chose to do so. You can't get a hard on from an unconscious man.

Claro?

[houstonintc]

99. Now your just yanking my chain...

Your originally words were "If she's had enough to drink, even if she doesn't say "no" it's rape. nt"

The implications of your own words is that one could say "no" but that the judgement was impaired. I'd suggest you edit your original post if indeed your being sincere. Otherwise I think your back peddling.

[dsc]

98. you are flat out wrong

If you finger a guy in the rear end strongly enough the penis will work drunk or not.

[anneboleyn]

102. Wow. Did not know!

[dsc]

104. It is all automatic

prostate is back there and causes the reaction. I have been fucked while drunk and willing and can attest it does work.

[anneboleyn]

101. There are scenarios in the D/s community in which a domme

(dominatrix) uses an accessory, and then acts out a scene with a submissive male partner. But in a real-life situation, your point is well-taken, but I see that Recursion and others have good points as well. I confess I know very little about such a situation so I should read more before I make any additional comments.

[datan]

77. ok

if he is really unwilling, his equipment won't work

the contra-positive is:
if his equipment is working, he must be willing

or
if he is aroused, he must be willing.

translate it to women:

if a woman gets aroused, she must be willing.

[Recursion]

81. Appalling

Please don't ever work with male sexual abuse victims. We exist.

[houstonintc]

84. BS, it is a double standard.

Your misconceptions about physiology are no excuse.

"Much like female erectile response and contrary to popular opinion, male erectile response is involuntary"

Source: http://www.springerlink.com/content/t60447681m7531l2/?p=6d3fd72b5d2d42a3a234d56204f59c51

[Odin2005]

91. That's bullshit. If you think women can't rape men you are very ignorant.

[kelly1mm]

62. Maybe you should reread the question posed. I asked what it he

was the one who was drunk (rather than her), is that rape (on her part)? And what if they are both really drunk, as in too drunk to give consent - are they both rapists? Neither?

[RaleighNCDUer]

64. See my reply 63 above. nt

[blondeatlast]

73. Likely that the DA would not prosecute. nt

[Kolesar]

46. Don't binge drink

"Now you tell me"

[Capitalocracy]

66. Binge drinking isn't an excuse for rape. nt

[reggie the dog]

53. i thought being drunk made it rape due to incapcitation?

[Capitalocracy]

65. Whether or not you believe one can be too drunk to say yes,

you're never too drunk to say no.

[blondeatlast]

75. Really? Then why are intoxicated people not held responsible for

contracts they signed while intoxicated?

[Capitalocracy]

78. I said whether or not you believe that...

I didn't say I don't believe it. I definitely do think you can be too drunk to say yes. But I noticed there were some people questioning it in the thread.

I think you're never too drunk to say no is something we can all agree on. Like the contract example... you can be too drunk to sign it, but you can never be too drunk to not sign it.

[BobbyBoring]

67. I was furious after watching that segment

Expelled?? Suspended?? Why weren't these fuckers locked up? Is rape not a crime in school?

[cynatnite]

70. Which is why so many women are afraid to report their rapes...

:grr:

[Spike89]

76. It is certainly rape, but it may not be enough to convict

If they both agree she said no, obviously rape. If they disagree, then you need to look for evidence. Of course, if she was drunk, the default is no consent (but I consider this under the umbrella of evidence).

[cliffordu]

79. K&R.

No means no.