In order to counteract the male patriarchy, women should be given more votes than men

[Very_Boring_Name]

i.e a man's vote is worth 1, a woman's vote is worth 2

[ZombieHorde]

1. What about transgendered people, or intersexed people? nt

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrick t. cakes]

17. you must be joking..

tell me you meant the modern right

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WatsonT]

29. They get three votes

[slackmaster]

33. They get to vote twice, but neither one counts

Just to make it "fair."

[Bucky]

83. Heh.

Sadly, there are people who probably sincerely believe that they shouldn't get treated equally.

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. One of their votes would cancel out the other. n/t

[Kurska]

2. Because who needs fundamental tenets of democracy am I right? n/t

[AlabamaLibrul]

3. False, in the interest of politeness nt

[alp227]

4. Thom Hartmann even proposed this idea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zF9PIP04mA

but really two wrongs don't make a right

so he almost became an idiot had he not seriously advocated (y'know, said "call congress"/proposed an amendment) for that idea. in the middle of that interview linked here i think is when he says "more votes for women"

[Modern_Matthew]

Then he is an imbecile who has lost my enormous respect. nt

[Bucky]

84. That, or he wasn't being completely serious.

Thom Hartman isn't an idiot. He's intentionally provocative at times, but he's as much an idiot as Jonathan Swift was a cannibal.

[joshcryer]

5. LOL, rec for the poll maker's 'other' option.

[blondeatlast]

41. +1. nt

[The Philosopher]

6. Wouldn't

the male patriarchy counteract such a voting system, at least at first?

[Codeine]

7. As opposed to the female patriarchy? nt

[Cerridwen]

9. Aw, damn, I took too long to type and you beat me to it.

LOL

:hi:

[Cerridwen]

8. I missed it, is there a female patriarchy somewhere?

Ideally, we'd all want to put a stop to patriarchy and paternalism as the values inherent in them is what creates the world in which we live; "It's a man's world":

might makes right
manifest destiny
definitions of human, worker, rational being, etc.
violence to resolve conflict
some better than others in a hierarchy
some less deserving than others
destruction carries more value than creation

and so on and so forth.

We have, in this country and perhaps throughout the world, a class war going on. Let's win that one first.

[defendandprotect]

10. Let's just get honest about it and bring down male patriarchy -- !!

Anyway we can --

Few males are part of patriarchy --

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

22. That is extremely controversial

The idea that only a small number of males are actually "made men" in the patriarchy if you will get your head torn off in a lot of places, since it is also argued the greatest bastion of the patriarchy and or male privilege is the blue collar / no collar serial inseminatiors that enslave women with unsupported children and the perceived hyper-masculinity that comes with being a tomcat in such communities.

[Kurska]

25. I hate to be an advocate of"personal responsibility".

But unless it was rape, having unprotected sex and getting pregnant isn't "enslavement", it is the natural result of a natural action. Granted, once a child is born it is the responsibility of both parents to provide for it and not doing so as described is wrong, but women are not innocent doe eyed creatures unaware that sex makes babies. If you don't want to have a child don't have unprotected sex and don't blame anyone but yourself if you do.

I just find the assertion that men are going around enslaving helpless women with their semen rather inane at best and harmful toward reproductive responsibility at worst.

[WatsonT]

31. At the last patriarchy meeting we did decide

to give up on enslaving women with semen.

Turns out that can backfire horribly what with child support and all.

Instead we're going to enslave them by subtly moving all food storage over to unnecessarily tightly sealed jars.

[slackmaster]

48. You forgot about the toilet seat thing, WatsonT

Also refusing to ask for directions as we drive around, pretending to be lost.

We have to keep them on edge in every way possible.

[Raksha]

50. You're a schmuck!!!

Re "Instead we're going to enslave them by subtly moving all food storage over to unnecessarily tightly sealed jars." :rofl:

[tammywammy]

59. LOL!

:spray:

[Yavin4]

62. You Do Know That What We Discuss at the Meetings is Supposed to be Secret

Also, it's your turn to bring the doughnuts to our next meeting.

[vim876]

56. No.

Not when the incidence of reproductive coercion (via things like tampering with the condom, etc.) is so common. "Researchers at UC Davis conducted a survey of 1,300 young women at five reproductive health clinics in Northern California. The women ranged in age from 16 to 29...The study found that one in five women said they had experienced pregnancy coercion and 15% had experienced birth-control sabotage." (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_shots/2010/01/unintended-pregnancy-teens-violence.html)

[defendandprotect]

71. kr

[Kurska]

86. Do you have any other studies besides that?

I've never seen such results from anywhere else, it seems to rely only on self report and I question how someone would know that a condom had been sabotage. Condoms actually do have a small chance to fail/break and that chance sky rockets when they aren't used correctly (which is all too common.) I think the rate of condom failure is a far more likely culprit than such a high rate of birth control tampering. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just questioning how this study was conducted. (I'm a research methods student).

But if you are that worried about it, supply your own condom or use a female condom. Worst comes to worst, this is a very good reason abortion should be lega.

[defendandprotect]

69. It is enslavement when the the means to prevent pregnancy are taken from women ...

NATURE IS PRO-CHOICE -- and gave women many plants which they used to control

reproduction. To limit conception, to interrupt conception. To completely control

fertility -- in either direction. All of these plants and information -- women's

wisdom/wicca -- were destroyed by patriarchy.

We still see the effort to control women by controlling reproduction -- very active still

in the minds of the far right!!


PS: I'd also suggest that you get caught up with women's history -- that they were

essentially made "property" by patriarchy --- and that marriage was their only recourse!!

[Kurska]

87. But Condoms are widely available in America and rather cheap too.

I support abortion rights and I'm very big on reproductive rights and responsibility.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

80. Fortunately the number of people who actually believe that is probably only in the thousands

and are only found in a handful of university social science and humanities departments.

[defendandprotect]

67. Just noticed ....

that I posted "male patriarchy" -- !! As though there might be a female patriarchy!!

funny -- think I was starting to say male-supremacy and changed it to patriarchy.


At any rate - if I understand your post correctly ...

you're saying that actually "the greatest bastion of patriarchy and of male privilege is the

blue collar worker" ... ?

and ...

no collar serial inseminatiors that enslave women with unsupported children and the perceived hyper-masculinity that comes with being a tomcat in such communities.

hmmm....

Certainly organized patriarchal religion tried to present a view of our species with no bonds

upon it -- no boundaries. "Go forth and multiply" -- "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion

Over Nature" were licenses for the few to exploit nature, natural resources, animal-life and

even other human beings according to various myths of inferiority.

Patriarchy and its underpinning -- male-surpemacist religion -- sought to control women by

controlling reproduction -- and much was destroyed in that effort. PLANTS are our medicines.

Nature is Pro-choice and provided ways for women to control reproduction. All of those plants

and information - women's wisdom -- were destroyed.

Therefore, it wasn't only sexual activity which enslaved women to child bearing --

it was removing the big ERASERS which nature had provided them which really did the damage.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

79. I certainly didn't say I believe that,

But the liberal feminist approach that takes a more marxist class based view of the patriarchy is not a terribly popular one. Equating the patriarchy with the capitalist class and then making the argument that few men are actually empowered by it will get your head torn off by just about any feminist audience.

[WatsonT]

30. Ok I have a plan

we'll rig it so that women live longer, have lower childhood mortality rates, and are less likely to be incarcerated and lose their rights to vote.

This will give them a slight, but significant advantage at the polls.

I'm off!

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. I don't think that'll be enough.

We also need to make sure they are 50% better educated, and half as likely to be unemployed.

[slackmaster]

51. I think you are a little behind the times, Jeff

Men and women are now completing college degrees at equal rates.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36663479/ns/us_news-census_2010/

There is still a disparity in unemployment rates, but nowhere near as high as you claim.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/07/07/128359804/unemployment-rate-men-vs-women

And of course there is a real disparity in equal pay for equal work. Congress could fix that, if it had the will to do so. But most people keep electing the same batch of recalcitrant incumbents over and over.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. No. 57% of college students are women.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-01-26-genderequity26_ST_N.htm





http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/06/women-will-rule-the-world.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41928806/ns/business-us_business/

[houstonintc]

11. So then create a matriarchy?

I.E. The same side of the same coin.

Also, first theres no such thing as female patriarchy, that would be called matriarchy.

Patriarchy, rule by fathers or males.

Matriarchy, rule by mothers or females.

I suppose some feminists would be giddy at the idea of establishing legal female supremacy in society but honestly I think you'd have to be ridiculous to consider the idea.

[Cerridwen]

12. No.

Some feminists might "be giddy at the idea of establishing legal female supremacy" others understand that much of authoritarian rule, by any "side" is poison to humans and other living things.

There are more options than up or down, on or off, this end of the spectrum or that end of the spectrum. Some of us even talk in both/and rather than either/or; even though that looks like yet another binary in our rather limited language.

There are alternatives.

[houstonintc]

15. If there are I've never seen them.

Waiting to get a look at some alternative. If it's out there I've never seen it.

[Cerridwen]

18. Well, you're looking at one now.

I strongly suggest you go learn more about feminisms as there is not just one school of feminist thought.

I'm one of those feminists who is aware of alternatives to either/or thinking and ideas.

[houstonintc]

19. I find maybe a new word might help...

Feminine -ism, doesn't suite those of us not of the feminine gender.

It's an -ism for some else's needs, desires and aspirations.

[Cerridwen]

21. The feminist men I've worked and studied with had no problem

with the term feminist. The only people I've met who do have a problem with the term feminist, are the ones who believed all feminists are of a hive mind and have hairy armpits and hate men. Then there are those who know actual feminists rather than the caricature.

[houstonintc]

35. Women studies dept. give me a new picture

Sorry as a college student perhaps a see a different sect of the faith then yours.

Personally I am not apt to join a religion/movement/ideology that brands me the devil. Doesn't seem suitable to my long term goals.

[Cerridwen]

53. Uhm, what?

Could you please retype what you said because I'm not sure what you said in those first 2 sentences; if such they were.

If you've been "brand{ed} the devil" by Women's Studies or feminists, my guess is you've got some "devil" to explain. Believe me, no one is asking you to join a group you so obviously despise.

Which begs the question, if you despise feminisms, why are you a Democrat? I can guarantee you'd feel more comfortable with the women hating repubs.

As to my initial request to retype; nevermind. It looks to me like some feminist handed you your ass and you're still smartin' from it. College student, are you? Wow. Scary that.

Have a grand day.

[blondeatlast]

66. The avatar he chose of his own free will speaks volumes. nt

[Cerridwen]

75. There's a lot about him that speaks volumes.

I didn't even notice the avatar. Geez.

:hi:

[lumberjack_jeff]

82. My favorite part of these "discussions" are the little teambuilding exercises.

"Did you see what he was wearing? OMG!"

[fishwax]

81. I've had plenty of experience with Women's Studies depts, but never been branded the devil

:shrug:

[WatsonT]

32. I think about a week of such a system

would lead to the exact same problems seen now with our current setup.

Women are no more moral or saintly than men.

Both are sadly humans, both are deeply flawed especially when given power.

[Journeyman]

13. "Then there was the educated Texan from Texas . . .

who looked like someone in Technicolor and felt, patriotically, that people of means -- decent folk should be given more votes than drifters, whores, criminals, degenerates, atheists and indecent folk -- people without means."

Joseph Heller, Catch-22

[defendandprotect]

72. Are we forgetting that the Founders actually did that? Votes for males only, males of property????

Compliments of our schizophrenic Constitution --!!!!

[readmoreoften]

14. As a woman, I'd just settle for real candidates, thanks.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. As long as NASA is still bombing the moon,

nothing will get better.

[FreeJoe]

24. I disagreed so much

that I voted false and told my wife and daughters that they also had to vote false.

[PVnRT]

26. You want Bachmann and Palin to have more voice than Sanders and Feingold?

Think about it.

[ThomWV]

40. Feingold no longer has a voice

Think about it.

[PVnRT]

64. In general, not in Congress

[ileus]

27. snooki approves this message

[raccoon]

28. Flamebait. nt

[slackmaster]

34. Premise is flawed. Anyone over age 16 knows that women have more power than men.

Because they own half the money and...

[Deep13]

36. In some countries there are gender quotas for parliamentary seats.

That actually seems like a good idea to me.

[Book Lover]

37. I have a better suggestion

In order to counteract the patriarchy, we all oughta have ourselves a revolution.

[ensho]

38. I vote no - but - regardless, we are MORE

in every way

men cry tears, sweat, have orgasm fluid

we cry tears, sweat, have orgasm fluid, produce milk, bleed blood for a wk. each month, bleed blood during and after child birth

and produce new humans

[defendandprotect]

73. And Nature has confidence in us --- !!!

[Very_Boring_Name]

77. ...

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[ThomWV]

39. Something like that was tried before. Maybe you could give men 3/5 of a vote.

[slackmaster]

44. That's gonna leave a mark

:spank:

[defendandprotect]

74. +1

[Raksha]

45. I voted with the majority. One man, one vote; one woman, one vote

is the way it's supposed to be. If we can somehow get away from the principle of one dollar, one vote it will be all the reform I need. Hey, I can dream, can't I?

[cliffordu]

46. Other:

I like cake!!

[Dr. Strange]

47. This thread is making me Hungary!

[Motown_Johnny]

49. There are more women than men, so women can out vote men now

if they choose to.

So blame the women, it must all be their fault :sarcasm:




http://hubpages.com/hub/What-is-the-male-to-female-population-ratio

^snip^

Illinois exactly matches the national average with 97.2 males for every 100 female.

[Modern_Matthew]

52. Hell no. nt

[blondeatlast]

54. This is not a true/false premise; it is a yes/no premise, and this woman chooses the "other" option.

Were the "other' option not offered, however, she would choose an unequivocal "no."

[vim876]

57. BTW, OP...

No one likes an MRA troll. K?

[Pithlet]

58. Unfortunately that's a viewpoint that is tolerated at DU.

You wouldn't think so. It shouldn't be.

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. If the subjects of the op were any other arbitrary grouping of people than men and women

10 DU'ers would have been summarily Tombstoned.

Instead, the 10 DU'ers who believe that men should be restricted from voting become the public face of DU.

Don't use this thread as indicative of misogyny. That's a bit of a stretch.

[blondeatlast]

65. Marketing Research Associates?

Mountain Rescue Association?
Magnetic Resonance Angiogram?

I'm betting on the former.

[vim876]

70. Men's Rights Activists/Advocates.

Also known as Father's rights advocates. Here's a decent article on how they're wrong: http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/solution-mra-problems-more-feminism/
You might also wanna check out the Manboobz.com blog.

[Very_Boring_Name]

76. Implying that women and men should have an equal vote makes me an MRA troll?

:crazy:

[sudopod]

60. I'm glad you're so concerned about the politics of Hungary. Important issues there!

Just think of those poor Hungarian men. Who will cook them dinner if the women are out voting all the time?

[tammywammy]

61. Stupid suggestion. n/t

[undeterred]

63. I think a woman should be given 1 vote for each decade she has lived.

And men should get 1 vote, thats all.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

68. preposterously dumb

[BOG PERSON]

78. no

but that's doesn't change the fact that ending patriarchy involves much more than changing individual attitudes about gender oppression. it is definitely not possible to end patriarchy within capitalism, only instead to privilege a minority of females at the expense of the majority.