Citizen veto! What if we put the power to make law back into the

[goodnews]

hands of the citizen?

The capitalists have been building their little shop of legal horrors for centuries. The Vagabond laws of Henry VIII forced maximum production from the workers by hanging you if you were caught three times loafing. There weren't enough jobs for the people able to work as capitalism was finding its wings. The Virgin Queen, so sweetly portrayed on TV, continued this nefarious policy and England saw its Golden Age. The laws since have been stacked against the worker, but maybe there is a way of dealing with this in the age of mass communication.


Here is an article on its use recently in Ohio:

Local union pushes to ‘citizen veto’ bill
News Section:American Association of University ProfessorsAmerican Federation of StateCampus NewsCounty and Municipal EmployeesNewsSenate Bill 5
ByPat Holmes
After Senate Bill 5 passed in the Ohio House yesterday, Ohio members of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees are looking to petition for a “citizens’ veto.”

Gov. John Kasich’s new budget plan, released earlier this month, will result in the City of Athens losing $500,000 in fiscal year 2012, according to a previous Post article.

In addition to those cuts, S.B. 5, which limits collective bargaining rights, could mean layoffs and reduced salaries for Athens workers, said Dennis Willard, a spokesman for AFSCME and the Ohio Association of Public School Employees.

“What is going to happen here is we’re going to take this to the people and give them an opportunity to exercise their veto power,” Willard said. “A citizens’ veto.”

The veto would allow citizens to vote on the bill during this November’s elections. AFSCME would have a 90-day window to petition for a citizens’ veto after the governor signs the bill in law. Kasich is expected to sign the bill on April 6.

Before collecting the 231,149 registered voter signatures needed to repeal the legislation, 1,000 signatures would be needed to submit the petition language to the attorney general and secretary of state for approval, Willard said.

“That language will have to truly reflect what the vote is and the character of the bill … it’ll have to be reflective of what this really is,” Willard said. “The vote will be a ‘no vote’ to overturn Senate Bill 5; it’ll be a repeal of this legislation.”

Willard estimated yesterday’s crowd of protesters at the state house to be in the tens of thousands, adding that he had never seen such public outcry over a piece of legislation.

“There will be a referendum,” Willard said, adding that plans have been made to collect the necessary signatures to force a citizens’ veto.

“We knew this was going to happen, and we have been planning, and we will hit the streets running as soon as the governor runs this bill,” he said.

Norma Pecora, president of Ohio University’s chapter of the American Association of University Professors, could not be reached for
comment.

www.thepost.ohiou.edu/content/local-union-pushes-‘citizen-veto’-bill -

www.huffingtonpost.com/.../ohio-union-bill-to-be-sig_n_843208_82821986 .html - Cached


I'd like to get a discussion going on this. If we can get the legal machinery under citizen control that would be a big blow to the capitalists. One prob I see on the horizon: you will have its constitutionality challenged and invariably it ends up in a corporatist stocked stocked Supreme Court (state or US). But then we just recall the Supremes who go against the citizens will and hope we can keep Carl Rove to busy to steal all the recall elections. :bounce:

[aquart]

1. California was destroyed by its propositions.

Is this like those?

[goodnews]

4. Good question. Like Proposition 13? nt

[TheKentuckian]

6. Seems it would be different because it isn't proactive but rather an override.

Passing taxes will be too much of a pain though and civil rights bills could be a debacle as well but it wouldn't quite be the madhouse of initiatives to cope with.

Maybe a 66% threshold would be functional.

[goodnews]

9. The Citizen Veto does not have to be used for all

legislation, just that which goes against what the public wants. It is a way of forcing the politics to serve the people.

[TheKentuckian]

15. Clearly, I'm just saying that sometimes the public rejects sane, good, and needed policy too.

The publics wants are often pretty shitty. Like I said, I might be able to support such an initiative if it isn't too low a threshold and you can't pass any taxes.

[Drale]

2. A pure democracy is a good idea however

I don't think in a country with such a huge population that it is feasible.

[goodnews]

3. What about on the state level, as in the example of Ohio?nt

[Drale]

7. It would be difficult even at the state level

It might work at the local county or maybe town level. Even then we would probably still have a ton of people not voting because "My vote doesn't matter cause other people will vote me way".

[white_wolf]

5. I'm in favor of this.

The more power we can grant directly to the people the better.

[goodnews]

8. The political climate has changed, people are becoming more

active. I't may be time to revisit citizen based legislating.

[Sirveri]

10. The masses are too stupid to use such a power properly.

Next thing we'll see is people voting away their fire departments because 'taxes are bad' or some other insane bullshit.

[goodnews]

11. Yea, that bothers me too. But as it stands the corporatists are

immune to legal action, except by recall which is a form of citizen veto. It seems that the Left, Labor, civil elements are on the move now and will be for awhile. IMO the momentum is building steadily and the zombie elements will be swamped. The drowning out of Palin and Breitfart in Madison by protesters was intense and indicates a shift. What we need are tools for the public to use to bring the politicians under control and serving the Public Interest or face having their legislation nullified. I'm going to follow what is going on in Ohio (the OP) closely.

I've had the same concerns you have in the past, but this whole political climate feels different, the masses seem to be moving in a good direction.

[CBGLuthier]

12. Fuck the whole country like califormia fucked themselves?

People are too stupid to be in charge.

[goodnews]

14. I hear ya. See reply #11

:hi:

[goodnews]

13. I've been looking at this subject but have found little in the way

of success stories with the veto. Does anybody have an example of a success story?

Thanks in advance for posting it.
:hi:

[jeff47]

16. It's a very bad idea. The tyranny of the majority isn't something to strive for. (nt)

[goodnews]

17. Good point. It seems to me, not to be redundant, that the

use of this tool, that's all it is, is either good or bad according to the user. It has been used for not so good purposes, but why should that keep it from being used for good ones. :shrug:

[jeff47]

20. Because there is no way to restrict it's use to "good". (nt)

[goodnews]

21. Like representative democracy? Are you messing around here?

:shrug:

[jeff47]

22. Representative democracy has some controls

In our specific case, the Constitution. So that the majority can't take away the fundamental rights of a minority, for example.

What has been proposed in OP would either 1) Have to have so high a threshold that it wouldn't ever do anything, or 2) Have such a low threshold that it would be ripe for abuse.

For examples of 1) see the ERA.
For examples of 2) see CA's prop 8.

[goodnews]

23. Well, we already have the tyranny of the minority with no end in ...

sight legally. The threat of the tyranny of the majority exists but is held at bay by the constitutionality of the legislation and the bill of rights aspect. The legislation in the OP is specific and narrower than the ERA, and of course it is on a state level.

As far as Prop 8 goes I fail to see how the "bad" use of the initiative process should hinder the good use of it. That is what I don't understand about your take here, and another poster above. The veto is a tool like a hammer to drive a nail or smack somebody in the head with.

[goodnews]

18. Here is one where it was used

Malaysian minister calls for ‘citizen veto’ on war
Published: Sunday, Dec 18, 2005, 20:33 IST
Agency: AFP


KUALA LUMPUR: Malaysia’s Defence Minister Najib Razak has called for democratic countries to give their citizens the right to decide whether they should go to war, reports said on Sunday.

“Perhaps it is high time to allow intelligent voters in democratic countries to exercise their veto each time their government decides to go to war outside their own borders,” Najib told an international peace forum here.

“If people in the free world have the time to vote for their national idols according to their quality of singing, if they can decide whether to impose the death penalty on their citizen criminals, why can they not be given the moral choice whether to inflict certain death on innocent people abroad?” he was quoted as saying by the official Bernama news agency.

In a closing address at the peace forum hosted by former Malaysian premier Mahathir Mohamad, Najib also received a 14-point document drafted by a committee of speakers, called the Kuala Lumpur Initiative to Criminalise War.

The document included calls to criminalise all commercial and scientific activities that aid war, and for national leaders who initiate aggression to be subject to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. The peace forum was overshadowed by the presence of Zimbabwe's President Robert Mugabe, whose planned speech on Friday was cancelled after organisers blamed a scheduling problem.

Mahathir had been forced to defend the involvement of Mugabe, who is accused of massive human rights abuses and driving his country to ruin. Mahathir, who retired in October 2003 after 22 years in power, was an ally of Mugabe, with the two men sharing a love of anti-Western rhetoric stoked by a history of British colonialism in both countries.

Other speakers at the forum, which ended on Saturday, included former Australian prime minister Bob Hawke and prominent Iraq war opponent, British MP George Galloway.





Malaysian minister calls for 'citizen veto' on war - World - DNA
Dec 18, 2005 ... It is high time to allow voters to exercise their veto each time their government decides to go to war outside their own borders,” Najib ...
www.dnaindia.com › WORLD - Cached- Block all dnaindia.com results


In this case I actually believe that the citizens should not neccessarily, though they may under certain circumstances, veto the war, but force the Congress to follow the Constitution on this, that is Congress MUST declare war demanded in the Constitution.

[goodnews]

19. By all means please say what you think on this. I wanna hear it.

:hi: