Why is nobody stating the obvious when it comes to sleeping air traffic controllers?

[MadHound]

Namely that this sudden "crisis" is a direct outgrowth of Reagan's union busting measures thirty years ago.

The main issues surrounding the PATCO strike of '81 concerned hours worked, staffing and safety. Pay wasn't a priority issue. Yet despite all of this, Reagan played the cowboy at high noon, and shot PATCO down. Since then, air traffic controllers have been less experienced, been forced to work longer hours, with fewer staff on board any given shift, and yes, do so with less pay. These issues have now come to the fore, with staff falling asleep on duty and other such issues. Frankly, I find it a bit of a miracle that that is all we've suffered, some snoozing air traffic controllers and not a larger, deadlier tragedy.

Three decades later, we now have air traffic controllers who are paid less, in terms of real wages, who work longer hours, and work harder since there are fewer staff on duty, handling a dramatically increased traffic load.

Yet according to the media, this is somehow some new, unforeseen phenomenon, one that is the fault of the the air traffic controllers. Nobody seems to want to point out that this is the logical consequence of St. Ronnie's union busting efforts thirty years ago.

When you pay people poorly, and force them to work more, you are not only going to get shoddy work from those employees, but the best and brightest simply won't enter the field. As with teaching, or any other such profession, if you want the best, you have to pay for them.

[madmax]

1. Bingo! nt

[Celebration]

2. what I want to know is

have they been falling asleep for thirty years? :shrug:

[aquart]

9. Why don't you do some research?

[8 track mind]

52. Atc is not an easy job whatsoever

As I've stated before on previous threads about this issue, in all of the towers I've been in, they are horribly understaffed. ATC is not easy work especilly in a major metro area like DFW or IAH.

[MrMickeysMom]

79. The whole idea of them being under-staffed stems from Reagan's move...

... to bust unions.

May he rot in whatever bad-actor/Republican hell exists, at least in my mind... the fuck.

[JDPriestly]

102. ATC has not been attracting the same quality of worker over the

past 30 years. As a profession, it doesn't have the same respect and the same advantages and opportunities that it had back in the union days.

Contrary to popular thought, union workers are better trained, more dedicated and take more pride in their work than nonunion workers. Look at the German traditions of the trade guilds that developed into the modern German union system. Unions make workers proud and make work noble.

Strong unions mean a strong economy. And no, I have never belonged to a union, but I have known lots of people who do. The decline of our economy began when Reagan started his assault on unions.

[spanone]

3. because reagan is moments away from sainthood

[Javaman]

20. ray-gun: the patron saint of the willfully ignorant. nt

[disillusioned73]

22. I like that..

:yourock:

[RoccoR5955]

57. what you said! n/t

[Enthusiast]

95. Perfectly accurate.

We should petition the pope.

[cpamomfromtexas]

4. You are correct, but they are paid more than most of the pilots FLYING the planes

So I guess you'll understand when the strikes begin.

But while your at it, call your congresscritters and ask them to abolish the Railway Labor Act and let airline unions bargain like everyone else.

[MadHound]

6. I think a pilot's strike would be a good thing

And I have no problem contacting my reps concerning the Railway Labor Act.

[2banon]

47. Maybe this is a strike in disguise?

dunno, but I thought fairly curious that suddenly (or maybe not, i don't know) we have a num er of incidents of air traffic controllers "falling asleep". I'm not arguing against assertions that they are overworked and underpaid, I can guess they are and when Reagan busted their union I was appalled that the rest of the nation weren't up in arms over that, because this is the obvious result.

I don't remember but it seems Reagan signed an executive order making it a federal crime for workers in the transportation field to go on strike.. which evoked the question in my mind, whether or not this sudden rise of sleepers could actually be a their way of calling a strike? It would be interesting to learn if there are more of these incidents than is actually being reported.. hmmm..

[aquart]

8. Really helps to pit pilots against air controllers like that.

What are you thinking?

[ChiciB1]

46. That Guy Sully Who Landed The Plane In NY Actually Said On Bill Maher

several weeks ago that pilots make a LOT LESS than people think they do. He stated that the country would be "surprised" if they found out. I can't remember ALL he said, but I seem to remember him including MOST of the airline industry with his statement.

They were talking about Unions and how few people belong to Unions today. Where once in this country we had a significant amount of people who belonged to a Union and could make a good wage, the numbers are WAY down. I think it's around 15% these days. And even some of the "active" Unions have been compromised or given up a lot through bargaining.

So, to me IT IS amazing that it's taken THIS LONG for this stuff to rise to the surface. My husband belonged to the IBEW, but the company Verizon changed to CWA which has given workers less than before.

Just sayin!

[right2bfree]

48. Unions are down to 7% of working people, compared to 35% in the 50-60's. nt

[defendandprotect]

63. Highest unionization we ever reached in US was 39% -- !!

Anyone who understands they are LABOR -- i.e., all of us -- should be

automatically unionized -- we don't need company affiliations to do it --

WE should set our own standards of salaries, benefits, working hours --

and working conditions -- safety, etal. UNITED TOGETHER IN UNION --

and the only way corporations would get employees would be in coming to the union!

[JDPriestly]

103. Yes. All working people should just form a union, and work

to improve labor laws for everyone.

When I was growing up, it was generally expected that an employee would give two weeks notice before quitting a job. That should still be the norm. It is a courtesy that is due to an employer.

At the same time, an employer should not be permitted to fire an employee without either some sort of severance arrangement or good cause.

It is a terrible blemish on a workers' record and a disadvantage in getting another job when a worker is dismissed for no good reason. Prospective employers assume that no one loses his job unless he has done something wrong.

At will employment laws and arbitrary firings mean that many good workers have great difficulty finding employment. All you have to experience is a change of supervisor, say to a younger supervisor who wants to hire his own peers for your job -- and you are out and virtually unemployable. It's even worse if an honest employee is fired because he won't go along with the dishonest practices of the employer or if the employer is simply a very difficult personality and the employee is terminated because of the personality problems of the employer.

[defendandprotect]

62. Michael Moore has talked about this -- some pilots get food stamps!! $20,000 a year!!

[Enthusiast]

97. I wondered the same thing.

Some posters say the most mysterious things. It's almost as if they want to steer the discussion in a way I do not like. It's almost like talking to the Republican neighbor. Funny ain't it?

[eilen]

15. Pilot's pay has been dramatically decreased as well.

Counter workers at fast food restaurants make more than waitresses at Chili's per hour. It is still corporate exploitation with help from government.

[PatSeg]

26. That is because pilots are "underpaid",

not that controllers are "overpaid". Pilots are paid by the airlines and have been treated poorly for years, whereas air traffic controllers are government employees. Sully Sullenberger has been a very important voice for pilots. It is amazing that anyone even considers it as a career anymore.

[defendandprotect]

64. Most of their benefits have been cut -- and pensions gone?

As I recall, experienced pilots used to make $70,000+ a year --

at least in the 1970's -- ???

[PatSeg]

87. And Sullenberger said

it has become a safety issue as well. The airlines are not attracting well trained, highly qualified pilots anymore and the ones they have, are seriously underpaid. Many of them have to bring sack lunches with them, as the airlines won't even feed them.

[defendandprotect]

89. This is really why capitalism destroys itself -- and can't exist without regulation ....

which is pretty much what FDR understood --

Capitalism is suicidal -- unfortunately, it will take all of us with it!!

[PatSeg]

90. What is sad and illogical

is that whatever destroys us, destroys capitalism as well. Greed is not good, greed is just stupid.

[JDPriestly]

104. And yet, pilots are responsible for our lives -- as are the airline mechanics

and all others who work in the airline industry.

[PatSeg]

108. Yes, not exactly a group of people

you would want to underpay or mistreat. Most pilots had paid for their own training, which is very expensive, and end up unable to pay their bills. I've heard of a few who quit flying and became air traffic controllers.

[defendandprotect]

60. However, all of the pilots and all of the controllers TOGETHER still make LESS than the CEO's !!!!

[Enthusiast]

96. They are hardly over paid......nt

[Smarmie Doofus]

5. Big $$$ media has its own unions to worry about.

>>>Yet according to the media, this is somehow some new, unforeseen phenomenon, one that is the fault of the the air traffic controllers. Nobody seems to want to point out that this is the logical consequence of St. Ronnie's union busting efforts thirty years ago. >>>>>>>>

Naturally it will lie by omission.

[aquart]

7. Excuse me? Been saying it all week.

Because it IS obvious.

[MadHound]

10. 'Scuse me,

I've been busy a good part of the week, my mom is in the hospital. Besides, I was referring more to the MSM rather than around here.

[Mnemosyne]

18. Hope your mom feels better quickly. n/t

[laundry_queen]

31. very obvious

I mentioned to my dad, who doesn't follow US politics in the way I do, and is a conservative in the Canadian sense, about more air traffic controllers falling asleep and his first words were, "that's thanks to Reagan". Lots of people are able to make the connection, even if the MSM doesn't.

[Tansy_Gold]

11. I brought it up on March 11th, though not quite

in that context.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=615548#615663

[MatthewStLouis]

12. Did you hear the NPR story on this the other day?

They discussed the issues that air traffic controllers face. Apparently, most controllers end up working every shift in a week so that in the end all the controllers get the same amount of experience and workload. So basically, all these controllers are tired all the time. It really makes no sense. There are also rules about napping 'on the job'. They aren't even allowed to nap during their break time!? Very arcane rule.

If I had any say in this I'd:
1) Move controllers onto rotating 6 month shifts. You do your shift, go home, then come back the same time tomorrow. That way, eventually, everyone gets a turn during the busy times, yet you actually get to adjust your life style (sleep-wake cycles) to the shift.

2) Let controllers do whatever they want during their break.

3) Up the pay and give them a 35 hour work week.

If people saw that the air traffic controller life were livable; more people would go into the field and less would be scared away.

http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=135517125&m=135517121

[Hissyspit]

37. I did listen to that.

[riderinthestorm]

51. Diane Rehm's show had a guest who explicitly talked about Reagan's union busting

and that the issues back then weren't over pay but that they were about hours, break times, sleep schedules etc.

It was pretty great to hear someone flat out say it who was one of her guests and not a caller (although callers also said it as well).

I can't give up my NPR membership because I love Diane Rehm too much!

[BrklynLiberal]

58. YES!! I did hear that. Could not remember which show it was on...

[defendandprotect]

68. And did NPR make any suggestions about what has to happen -- and why this is happening?

[Liberal_in_LA]

73. This morning NPR pointed out this face: In nightshift jobs, people used to be able to sleep.

Now they are watched and can't catch a nap, must remain awake the entire shift. So even if there are 2 controllers, one can't take a nap.

[AC_Mem]

86. My son is an ATC

At a major southeastern airport. He works very very hard and takes his responsibility seriously. They have him working swings allot, I worry about his inner clock sometimes but he is diligent and balanced, so I just worry from a distance.

Its a huge responsibility and one of the highest stress level jobs in America. He loves it though and I'm very proud of him. If this is an underhanded trick to attack the ATC unions, I'm going to be all over this.

Oh, and he is highly intelligent, cares about his planet and his fellow man and is a DEMOCRAT.

Yippee!

Annette

[Overseas]

13. K&R.

[moondust]

14. It is getting some coverage.

IMO covered very well Wednesday night on Elliot Spitzer. But that's all I've seen.

[abelenkpe]

16. Completely agree

I've been concerned about air traffic controllers for quite some time and think Reagan did us no favors by breaking up their union. Also quite concerned about airlines outsourcing maintenance work to minimally paid workers in other countries and at the shocking low pay and long hours of airline pilots. Really the whole thing is a disaster in the making. Sacrificing quality for profit.....it's the American way.

[robcon]

17. Nonsense. Sleeping controllers are caused by controllers who fall asleep.

What happened 3 decades ago has NOTHING to do with it. Talk about tendentious connections!!!

[MadHound]

19. Are you being serious or sarcastic?

What were the PATCO union members striking over? Safety issues, namely fewer hours, more downtime between shifts, and better staffing. Pay was a tertiary consideration, but one that has had major impact over the years.

Instead, Reagan broke up the union, and now ATC's are working longer hours, with less time off between shifts, dealing with a higher amount of air traffic, a larger workload, with fewer people on duty. This all leads to major problems, including air traffic controllers falling asleep. Not to mention that the declining pay for ATC's has meant that the best and brightest are going to other professions, where the workload isn't as stressful and the pay is higher.

I really can't tell, if you are being sarcastic, your wit is as desiccated as a desert.

[lunasun]

54. where the workload isn't as stressful and the pay is higher.

Exactly!!
you get what you pay for.....
..I may not be the best or brightest, but when I found out 20 yrs ago(post PATCO)what the job payed and how the shift work went, the interviews stopped at my end Found a better pay and easier job that also wanted my talents.
The only person I know who took it burned out at about 5yrs / check out thier common health issues too

[October]

75. They've been falling asleep for 3 decades, too -- as the cuts have increased

Personally, I can't believe it took this long for this to come to light.

[Enthusiast]

98. They fell asleep because they work

too many hours, change shifts too often and are generally bored as they work at night in a darkened environment. All of these conditions could have been prevented or corrected if it weren't for the actions of the FILTHY Fascist Ronald Reagan. May he rot in hell.

[TalkingDog]

21. I did say it last night at dinner. In a small town red state diner.

With the everpresent boob tube turned to the news... When the air traffic story came on I said in voice loud enough to hear...

"They don't give those guys any time off to get real sleep. I wonder why they don't unionize." Then the mister and I busted out laughing at the top of our lungs.

He said: "Yeah, they could call their union PETCO or something." and we laughed again.

If people were confused, fuck em. I hope they all have air flights next week.

[progressoid]

23. Yup - my wife and I were having the same discussion a few days ago.

Don't expect anyone in the liberal media to talk about it though.

[Sherman A1]

24. Agreed

:toast: :toast:

[rivercat]

25. I heard that they were increasing the number of hours between shifts

from 8 to 9. yeah, that should make all the difference.

[KansDem]

30. I wondered that myself.

Increasing the number of hours between shifts from 8 to 9 means that a controller could work 8 hours, then off 8/9 hours, then work another 8 hours.

My math tells me they can work 16 hours in a 24-hour day. I don't think that should stand for such strenuous work with grave responsibilities...

[defendandprotect]

66. Also trucking industry has similar problems -- no rest -- and driving ...

broken sleep -- a few hours in the back of the truck!

[Enthusiast]

99. Exactly.

Truckers will soon be issued meth in the interest of safety.

[KansDem]

27. I mentioned this to relatives during the past weekend.

I asked, "I wonder why we didn't hear of air traffic controllers falling asleep before Reagan busted their union?"

No one could (would) answer me...

[Fire Walk With Me]

28. Ding! I implied it but all the way over in the Books:Fiction forum.

The controller who fell asleep at Reagan Airport being ironic, etc.

:thumbsup:

[Fire Walk With Me]

29. Oh, and since Republicans originally smashed it to pieces...beware of Privatization.

Any calls to "fix" what they broke in the first place, through corporate ownership, stinks of a setup.

[musette_sf]

32. "30 years ago? Who cares about 30 years ago?"

"That's all in the past, water under the bridge, move along, nothing to see here, who expects someone to remember 30 years ago?

The framers of the Constitution never intended for people to take history of 30 years ago into account! If they had, they would have put it into the Constitution in 1787! If it wasn't there in 1787, it wasn't part of the original intent! And all that matters is the original intent of 1787!"

(Paid for by the Reagan Revisionism And Mythology Committee, Bill Casey, Chairman)

[Enthusiast]

100. LOL!

I like this -(Paid for by the Reagan Revisionism And Mythology Committee, Bill Casey, Chairman)

[JHB]

106. A project of..

..the History of Ronald Reagan United Memorial Foundation.

HRRUMF.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

33. Another obvious fact is just hire more controllers for backup.

Seems to be the simple solution, far cheaper than a tragic crash with loss of life.
To practical?

[SoCalDem]

36. make it a priority job class..

make shifts 8 hours long with 15 minute breaks @ hour 2 & 6, 1 hr lunch @ hour 4.. Make shifts worker-friendly....

6 am-3 pm
7 am-4 pm
8 am-5 pm
9 am-6 pm
etc

shifts that start after 7 PM should have a premium attached and they should be reserved for people who WANT that shift and ONLY that shift

[Blue_Tires]

111. I'd also suggest at least two people on duty at all times...

[State the Obvious]

34. is this obvious enough?

Your OP is absolutely:fistbump:.......positively :fistbump: ......100% correct!:fistbump: ........

[valerief]

35. Well, the trickle-down media aren't gonna diss Reagan. nt

[FLyellowdog]

38. Just a few observations...

1. Not all controllers are paid the same. Salary depends on experience grade and type of facility.
2. Shifts are built around expected amount of traffic during a given amount of time.
3. Fatigue is most evident among controllers who work “double-back” shifts which amount to 16 hours of work within a 24 hour day.
4. Controllers do belong to a union which is very strong. (NATCA)
5. NATCA has a great deal to do with formulating rules/regulations under which the agency operates.


While sleeping on the job is never a good thing regardless of what one does for a living, it seems that new scheduling would eliminate the problem for controllers. Even a week of days and a week of nights and a week of mids would help some. Changing shifts each day is risky and unhealthy.

Controllers are expected to be prepared to do the job once they sign in but many like to work double-backs to ensure a longer weekend, holiday, etc. There are issues here that could and should addressed.

[Hannah Bell]

39. NATCA is not a strong union at all. It's the company union that replaced PATCO.

They can't even strike.

It's the scabs' union.

[FLyellowdog]

42. Well,

whether they can strike or not doesn't mean they aren't strong. Talk to a manager at any facility and you'll find out that NATCA is indeed very strong. Personal experience here....from several places across the country.

[Hannah Bell]

44. yeah, so "strong" bush imposed unilateral work rules on them in 2005-6.

NATCA was involved in contentious negotiations with the FAA in 2005-6 under the Bush administration. Since the parties could not reach an agreement on a new contract, the FAA was forced to follow the process enacted by Congress and unilaterally implement new terms and conditions of employment. <2> The Federal Labor Relations Authority (FLRA) determined that NATCA was treated fairly throughout these contract negotiations and they dismissed all charges made by NATCA that the FAA acted improperly. <3>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Association


what is *your* definition of "strong"?


Last year the FAA imposed a new contract on controllers after a battle that sent the bargaining agreement to Congress for action. No one thought Congress would lift a finger and they did not, so FAA imposed the document which was their right as things sit today. The new document – can’t call it an agreement since the controllers did not agree - called for a number of pay reductions while also asking for some pretty silly things, like a controller dress code where one has not existed for 30 years.

Give a listen to two interviews NATCA’s executive vice president Paul Rinaldi gave recently and tell me I’m wrong when I say that NATCA made a mistake axing the more militant John Carr for Rinaldi. The first was at AvWeb, the other on the Ed Schultz talk radio show.

If I were still a controller, I’d be worried … dearly worried by what I heard during these interviews, especially in light of the continued hammering NATCA is taking from FAA.

http://www.jetwhine.com/2007/02/the-air-traffic-controller-union-what-is-natcas-value-today/


Natca is pitiful.

[nytemare]

40. Air traffic controllers, pilots, and flight staff all make ridiculously low salraries

Some regional pilots only make $30000 a year. The whole industry is askew. It is insane to have people with that much responsibility making pay that low.

[BOHICA12]

67. ATCs - Not really

Air traffic controllers earn relatively high pay and have good benefits. Median annual wages of air traffic controllers in May 2008 were $111,870. The middle 50 percent earned between $71,050 and $143,780. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $45,020, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $161,010. The average annual salary, excluding overtime earnings, for air traffic controllers in the Federal Government—which employs 90 percent of all controllers—was $109,218 in March 2009.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos108.htm

Pretty good pay to me!

[nytemare]

85. Ok, I was thinking back to the hero pilot who was on Bill Maher

That is a good salary. It's crazy that some pilots make in the mid 20,000 range. I hope those who make that low salary advance fast, because that's got to be difficult.

[WillyT]

41. Yep... And From 1982: 'Air Waves' - TimeMagazine

Air Waves
Monday, May 24, 1982

<snip>

How safe are the skies? That question was uppermost in the minds of travelers last summer after Ronald Reagan fired 12,000 striking air controllers, leaving supervisors, non-strikers and military controllers to do the job. But as the months passed and 10,500 skywatchers, rather than the previous 17,400, manned the nation's control towers, airports managed to operate without major mishaps or too many exasperating delays. Fear of flying faded fast. Now, although the Federal Aviation Administration strongly disputes them, some controllers are warning that there may still be reason for renewed concern. Says one Atlanta controller: "We need our people back."

One problem is the high dropout rate among air controller trainees at the FAAs Monroney Aeronautical Center in Oklahoma City. When the strike began last August, the FAA announced plans to train 5,500 new controllers a year, triple the usual number; nine months later only 1,490 have graduated from the Oklahoma academy. Of the 717 trainees who enrolled in the first class last August, only 406 passed; normally 75% of the trainees graduate from the twelve-to 16-week program. Since then, the entrance exams have been made more stringent, and the FAA claims that now about 65% of those admitted eventually graduate. Officials of the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO), insist, however, that the real figure is 45%.

With new recruits coming so slowly out of the classrooms, many controllers working in the towers complain that their hours and work load are too strenuous. At the nation's 22 busiest airports, some controllers may work as much as ten hours a day, six days a week. They contend that many of the 500 military controllers brought into the towers to help out after the strike were not qualified to handle heavy commercial traffic; others complain about the inexperience of controllers transferred from smaller airports to major ones. "We're getting them from places like Charleston and Tallahassee," says one Atlanta controller. "Some were sent home. They couldn't handle it."

Perhaps the most serious charge leveled against the FAA is that morale in the towers is deteriorating as a result of poor relations between tower supervisors and the controllers—which was a major cause of last year's strike. Says one New York controller: "You are discouraged from calling in sick or taking any time off. The attitude is, 'There is a job to do, and we don't give a damn what problems you might have.' " A study commissioned by Transportation Secretary Drew Lewis shortly after the strike began and released last March showed that management practices were still unnecessarily authoritarian. Said the report: "Supervisors tend to 'vector' people like they did airplanes. It doesn't work well."

<snip>

More: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953501,00.html

:hi:

:kick: & Rec!!!

[defendandprotect]

70. And, amazing that the original strike was about protecting the public!!!!

Yet right wing propaganda worked to convince the public the controllers

deserved to be fired because they were inconvencing the public!!!

[WillyT]

81. Outstanding Point !!!

:applause::applause::applause:

:yourock:

:hi:

[MedleyMisty]

43. At this point, the best and the brightest have dropped out of American society

I was born between Reagan being elected and being sworn in.

In fifth grade, I was tested as reading at college level and above. I remember the sentence at the end of the results summary of the individual IQ test - that I had "the temperament and the abilities to go far with her life".

Ah, but the temperament bit - creative, individual, rebellious - ain't no way to go far in American society with that sort of temperament. Fascism kills humanity. Fascism kills souls. Fascism kills everything.

So why even play the game of conformity, of going through their torturous gray uniform circles of death for some cheap ass plastic reward? Especially considering I was born to people who worked in factories and didn't have college degrees. No homeschooling or private lessons or going to college early for me.

You must understand - I am not trying to brag or whine here - honestly I'm perfectly happy with my little slacker job that doesn't require too much from me so I'm free to think. And to write for free and publish for free online. Small audience, but no worries about conforming to some stupid market shit, of making it past some old rich white gatekeeper who only cares about profit, of my art being turned into lowest common denominator pablum.

I am simply trying to explain that fascism kills everything, and that when you set up a society to encourage oppression and slavery and conformity and lack of thought, you reap what you sow. You kill your society. Fascism is not sustainable.

[MadHound]

45. Dropping out, on a permanent basis, is not an option for the best and brightest

The story of your upbringing sounds like mine, only set it back twenty years earlier.

I've found that I can't be disengaged from the world. I want to see it continue, to make it a better place, and I've found myself to be too stubborn to back down from the fight.

I've also found the need to give back to the world, hence I've gone into education, among other such moves throughout my life.

I've done the slacker job thing far too much in my life(doing it now while waiting for a teaching position to open up). Yeah, you don't take your work home with you, but such a job takes a toll on you nonetheless.

Fascism doesn't have to kill you, you simply have to have the will to fight back.

[Blue_Tires]

110. excellent insights...

[prete_nero]

49. Be real...

I work at a 911 center in a smaller population, we have many of the same issues that are coming up here.
We regularly have to work 3 or more different shifts in a week, including overnights and 'double backs' (8hrs off and back).
We get no extra compensation for working evening shift as well as overnight shift. We answer 911 calls as well as dispatch out police, fire and EMS...and the majority of the time there is only ONE person working, one person doing all of that. That means if you call reporting your car is stolen, but I have a heart attack call on the other line YOU are going on hold for as long as it takes.

My point? Simply from experience that NOTHING will change until a real tragedy happens. Until two planes collide and kill everyone, that mistake can be traced back to the ATC and there is no way that the agency they work for can blame the worker and cover their own asses..UNTIL that happens nothing will change. You know why? Because workers cost money and 'potentially' saving lives has no impact to the bottom line. This is how government works, cover up the problems or fix them afterwords.

How sick is it that the best thing that could happen for airline safety is for airplanes to crash. What a screwed up world.

[Blue_Tires]

+1000

[Initech]

50. St. Reagan was the worst thing that's ever happened to this country.

[defendandprotect]

72. ... and certainly it was another stolen election -- "October Surprise" ....

which GHW Bush played a primary role -- along with Gates --

TREASON!!!

And followed the same pattern Nixon followed PRE-election in making deals with other governments --

TREASON!!

[Initech]

77. I still want to know how all but five states did not vote for Reagan.

I still don't think it's humanly possible for one candidate to have such a large majority. Not in this polarized climate. I don't buy it for a minute - and I was just a newborn when this election happened.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Corruption Winz]

53. I can't believe it....

Reagan was so bad, that he literally had the ability to ruin anything. He could damn near make planes fall out of the sky.

Republicans love him. I repeat..... republicans love him. Sad.

[KT2000]

55. toured the Seattle tower once

many years before reagan. The director explained that there are always more than controllers than needed because their job is so demanding of acute attention that they need backup in case someone is not feeling up to par. The job is so stressful that people undergoing additional stress in their life may not be able to perform well enough. Sometimes the person was told by their co-workers that they needed to sit their shift out. They had a desk for just such occasions.

Yes - reagan compromised safety to get rid of the union and I am sure there have been many incidents of compromised safety that we have not heard about.

[BrklynLiberal]

56. Absolutely, 100% correct..and I did hear this statement yesterday on one of the WNYC talk shows.

The speaker said that the current problem with the Air Traffic Controllers is directly traceable to what Reagan did during the strike.
He fired 14,000 people...and the field has never recovered.


Edit: After reading all earlier posts I found out it was the Diane Rheim Show.

[defendandprotect]

59. Aren't we now subsidizing private airports for those who fly private planes?

[AllyCat]

61. agreed. asking people to do more for less does not make us safer or them more likely to do

a good job.

[Mimosa]

65. Pilots should also be well paid.

How did airlines profit back in the glorious 50s and 60s, the 'Come Fly With Me' era?

[WhiteTara]

69. Yes. This is about union busting scabs.

If the controllers had stood together, they couldn't have done this; but we have many weak links inside each of us and those weak links killed the American Dream. This was the days when picket line crossing was a shocking affair. The strike wasn't really about money or benefits, but about our aging and decrepit tower equipment. Raygun silenced the ATC and Nadir slowed the small car movement. The Corporations were happy.
"Those were the days my friend, we thought would never end, those were the days, oh yes, those were the days."
Petula Clark or was that MaryAnn Faithful

[October]

76. There aren't many strong unions left

The president intervenes whenever it comes to pilots - ATC and possible strikes.

I wish we, as a people, knew our own strength. That's why I think Wisconsin is such an inspiration.

Honestly, though -- pilots could have an effect, too, if they just parked the planes for a day. Wow! Can you imagine!

[WhiteTara]

107. Wouldn't that be a statement. Pilots parking the planes and

saying, "I won't fly and be responsible for all these people without the right equipment"?

I wonder if Obama would bring in flight students to fly the planes? I'm sure that's what the Raygun would have done.

[mdmc]

71. ..

[shimmergal]

74. Studies of shift work show

that the very WORST way to do it is the way they're scheduling the ATCs: a rotating schedule in which the worker does every type of shift in the course of a week or month. Even the graveyard shift has a lower rate of health problems or inattention than this pattern.

Who's making the decision to set things up this way? Don't they even know this basic fact?

[moondust]

84. And they should know that.

From personal experience in the military and in hospitals, rotating through the graveyard shift is most disruptive to normal human functioning. Just going to a permanent graveyard shift and letting them get used to working those hours all the time would make a big difference.

[Lifelong Protester]

78. I worked in an air traffic control center while in college, and I KNOW

this is a HIGH stress job (I was just an intern, not any more than an observer) and I cannot believe the working conditions now. While I was at the FAA, they were unionized. Now... for crying out loud, they are just wage serfs, and the job, I'm sure, is no less stressful, with NO UNION to represent them.

I have to agree, the decertification of their union and mass firing... it was the beginning of the end for this profession.

And no, I will NOT fly unless it is an emergency.

[krispos42]

80. In other words, your tax cuts at work n/t

[OwnedByFerrets]

82. In America, its called "productivity" and Wall Street thrives on worker

productivity. The more we work and the less we make, the richer Wall St grows.

[orbitalman]

83. Amen !

[HillbillyBob]

91. I was navy atc, just starting the process of joining

I ll be brief, the strike then was about the same damn problems now.
Back to back shifts..that did change after raygun, but 8 on and 8 off then 8 on and so on for 2 3 wks at a go. It f**ks you up. When I was in there were a lot of uppers and downers being passed around in order to keep up.

[Zoeisright]

92. Exactly.

This is what happens when unions are broken. But stupid repukes and their brain-dead followers would rather blame individuals than take ANY responsibility for this issue OR face the truth.

[PatrynXX]

93. actually I thought that the first moment I heard about it

being how union alert we are from WI and others. and the fact my brother was worked to injury on his crazy hours even on a sliced knee. Safety whats safety?? Controllers go to sleep and it's not their fault. they get suspended. My brother slices his knee because he's exhausted. it's his fault. got suspended for it. albeit it was a 2 week suspension and to make it a legal suspension they gave him 2 days off. o_O

[Enthusiast]

94. I'm stating it.

My wife and I both quickly came to this same conclusion.

What are we going to do? Every action by Reagan is now enshrined in America. Both political parties are now acting as though trickle down economics is a viable strategy for a healthy nation, and lower taxes increase revenue. It's like Bizarro World.

[wial]

101. it's doubly ironic

they named the worst airport in the country after him. America won't be free again until his name is removed from every public institution on which it has been smeared. He's the Lenin of American idiocracy.

[catrose]

105. My first thought--thanks for saying it

Now we're reaping what RR has sown.

[Generic Other]

109. Cost cutting measures are to blame

No new hires even with attrition because they have to pay benefits to new workers. Just make do with the old crew. Speed up the treadmill. That's why 8 of them fall asleep in a month. What do you want to bet if we looked at HR files, we'd see they had a buttload of retirees they didn't replace.