Eyewitness on blunt smoker stabbing woman on subway

[KurtNYC]

There are plenty of threads on this but I thought it was worth linking this account which goes into much more detail.

The woman gets louder and says "Don't light that thing on the train!" I look over and see that the guy she's yelling at has a lighter and the flames seem larger than normal. It wasn't one of those $.99 cents Bic lighters, it was pretty hardcore. Congratulations kids, I'm now alarmed. The woman continues to tell the guy to stop and tries to knock the lighter from his hand and things get physical. The entire train is looking at this go down and people are starting to get a little frantic. The man tells the woman "I will f*cking kill you". The woman yells at the man "I will f*cking kill YOU!!" They are pushing one another. Another woman steps in to help.
...
At that point, 2 men run over to try to help restrain the guy. For context, this guy is probably 5'7 150lbs...I could probably take him. I'm in the middle of the car trying to calm people down and I look over and see blood gushing from the woman's face. While she was restraining the guy in the corner, he took out his knife (edit: according to reports it was a pen) and SLASHED her face - from her temple to her nose. Yes. I'm riding the train to work...and someone has just gotten stabbed in the face. Twilight-freaking-zone. The craziest part is that the woman continues to try to get the knife (pen) from the guy and beats his hand until he drops it. She's obviously running on adrenaline. We are still between 14th & Chambers.
...
People are freaking out. 2 of us step up. 1 guy stops the people from pulling the emergency lever. That will only make the situation worst. I send someone to the conductor so he can call the police. The train starts to slow down though we are 2 stations away in an attempt to give the cops time to get to the station. The guy is now being held up by 5 guys in the corner. The woman is sitting on the train bench with blood gushing from her face and I'm standing there trying to calm people down.

http://liferonethea.blogspot.com/2011/04/craziest-train-ride-ever.html

The truth beats fiction any day. I'm proud to have neighbors like Ro (this blogger) who realize life is not a spectator sport.

[Renew Deal]

1. The lady made several huge mistakes.

There are some serious violations of NYC rules of life in this.

[Liberal_in_LA]

26. by trying to knock lighter from guys hand, she made the 1st physical contact

No, he should not have stabbed her,

[Renew Deal]

29. This is correct.

She was wrong even saying anything. One of the articles said the riders were pissed at her for escalating this.

[Liberal_in_LA]

31. guess she'll keep her mouth shut next time.

[LanternWaste]

36. Hopefully she'll do time for contradicting Mrs. Manners...

Hopefully she'll do time for contradicting Mrs. Manners and not acting in a genteel and civilized manner...

:eyes:

[damntexdem]

47. By lighting up a large flame on a lighter, he made a threatening move.

Instead of trying to knock it from his hand, she should have tried to shove it down his throat.

[damntexdem]

46. I cannot believe how many DUers criticize a woman who stuck up for her rights.

But if NYC is so "tough" that people cannot stand up for their rights in normal ways, then perhaps we should advocate that nonsmokers stab smokers on NYC transit -- would that fit in better with the NYC "ethos"?

[Renew Deal]

51. She didn't stick up for her rights.

She got involved in somebody elses business. Now, if the smoke is a problem for her, there are better ways to handle this (move).

[Tx4obama]

2. Interesting. So, there are witnesses that saw 'her' attack him first. n/t

[uppityperson]

4. This article says her "attack" was pushing away a flame he had in her face

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1378744/Homeless-man-stabbed-woman-face-pen-New-York-subway.html

[Tx4obama]

12. She has legs. She could have got up and walked away instead of assaulting him. n/t

[uppityperson]

17. Defending herself is assaulting him? Pushing away a lit lighter from her face is "assault"?

oh my

[Tx4obama]

19. No one said the lighter was 'in her face'. And she was hollering at him more than once....

so she had plenty of time to get up from where ever she was and move.

[uppityperson]

22. Yes, they do

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1378744/Homeless-man-stabbed-woman-face-pen-New-York-subway.html
But the argument quickly escalated. Mrs Seeger began yelling as Cordero allegedly produced a huge lighter and began waving a high flame in front of her face.
She tried to knock the lighter out of his hand before two men on the train intervened.

[LanternWaste]

37. It was obviously her responsibility to accommodate him...

It was obviously her responsibility to accommodate him... :eyes:

[KurtNYC]

43. when I read this account and thought about some experiences

with people who panic on airplanes and in confined spaces it seems possible that she had a full blown panic attack precisely bc you can't "walk away" ! Pure instinct. Pure survival instinct in a 45 year old NJ woman. She can't "flight" so she has to "fight" and her primal brain takes over.

This witness doesn't see anything until she HEARS "Don't light that thing on the train." And we don't know if she means 'lighter with large flame' or the 'blunt'. Seconds later this woman is stabbed but she is beating the guys hand so badly he drops his weapon.

In my experience, just like the blogger, that is ADRENALINE. Your brain goes into survival mode your vision narrows, your focus is intense, all that other stuff, extra strength, no pain. He's got a flame in her face, screams "I will kill you!"

[Confusious]

3. She started the physical confrontation

Bad news.

[uppityperson]

5. How awful she was, to try and push away a flaming lighter shoved in her face. I mean, REALLY

how COULD she do such a bad thing?

[Renew Deal]

7. The lighter wasn't in her face.

Starting a physical confrontation on the subway, especially with a homeless guy is a recipe for disaster. If someone is crazy enough to light a blunt on the train, he's too crazy for you to confront.

[uppityperson]

15. According to this article, it was. Sounds like we are getting different details.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1378744/Homeless-man-stabbed-woman-face-pen-New-York-subway.html

But the argument quickly escalated. Mrs Seeger began yelling as Cordero allegedly produced a huge lighter and began waving a high flame in front of her face.
She tried to knock the lighter out of his hand before two men on the train intervened.

[Renew Deal]

18. If the person is crazy enough to light a blunt on the train, they're too crazy to confront.

You know why people say you need to "survive" in the big city? Because you do need to survive. Confronting homeless guys lighting blunts on a train are a good way to decrease your chances of survival.

[KurtNYC]

48. Fight or flight -- she is on a crowded train with the doors closed

he has a lighter with a large flame so maybe THIS IS SURVIVAL in her mind. He screams at her "I will kill you!"

He has a homemade knife, cuts her and she disarms him.

She IS surviving.

[Renew Deal]

52. Would this have happened if she said nothing

and went to the next train? It doesn't matter if you're "right" or "wrong." Being right and dead just makes you dead right.

[Rage for Order]

20. Please note the witness they quote in the Daily Mail article

It is Ronethea Williams, who wrote a more detailed blog post about the incident. Note that she says "I look over and see that the guy she's yelling at has a lighter and the flames seem larger than normal. It wasn't one of those $.99 cents Bic lighters, it was pretty hardcore." Her entire blog post can be found at the link

http://liferonethea.blogspot.com/2011/04/craziest-train-ride-ever.html

[JonLP24]

21. This is why I love trials

Referring to the different details part.

[Confusious]

8. She should have stepped back.

She made first physical contact. In my book, that puts her in the wrong. She'll probably be up on charges also.

[KittyWampus]

11. Depends how crowded it was. EOM

[Confusious]

16. Sounds like she came over to him

But that's just my reading of the situation.

"At that point, 2 men run over to try to help restrain the guy" you don't run on a crowded car.

also:

"I'm in the middle of the car trying to calm people down and I look over and see blood gushing from the woman's face. While she was restraining the guy in the corner"

If it was a crowded train, and you're in the middle, you couldn't see into the corner at the end of the car.

[KurtNYC]

49. the moment this stuff starts a hole opens up

even if it is way crowded. this is a rush hour express train -- probably 200 to 300 people in a space that is 10' x 75' -- think of an airplane with people in aisles.

[KittyWampus]

6. Lighting shit on a subway train endangers everyone on that train. I am pretty good

at ignoring stuff in NYC. I might have gotten up and changed cars? I don't know.

Can you still change cars? Haven't taken a subway in a year or so.

[Renew Deal]

10. Unless the person is lighting a fire or a bomb, ignore.

That includes cigarettes, blunts, birthday candles, etc.

[JackBeck]

13. You can get fined for walking between two subway cars while in motion.

I've seen a few comments about how she should have just changed cars. But the train was in between stations, so if she had switched cars she would have run the risk of getting a ticket.

[Renew Deal]

23. She wouldn't have gotten a ticket.

If someone starts to write a ticket, all she has to do is point to the blunt and she's off the hook. Have you ever gotten on a train overwhelmed by urine smells coming from the guy sleeping across three seats? Here's what you do. Move to the next car or change cars at the next stop. You don't whine. You definitely don't confront.

[JackBeck]

34. People get tickets for having their bags occupying a seat.

She may or may not have gotten a ticket, regardless of what motivated the illegal behavior, neither you or I know for sure.

I've been with friends who have been ticketed for smoking on subway platforms that are outside, with nobody else around.

And yes, I've gotten on a train with someone reaking of urine, or smelling of something a lot worse, and I've waited until the next station to change cars. There are laws, that when you break them, have consequences.

I've lived in this City for over 15 years and have been in a variety of altercations on the subway or on the street when people are being rude, disrepsectful, or unable to abide by even the most basic rules of common courtesy. Just this morning, I had to tolerate and school a couple of able-bodied people who were taunting me for blocking them from running over someone trying to slowly make it up the subway stairs using two arm crutches.

Should I have been stabbed for that?

[Renew Deal]

38. Of course not.

You did the right thing. But the response you got is fairly typical for that situation. :pals:

[Rex]

9. WTF was her problem? Did she think she was posting on an anonymous

forum!? Sometimes being right, doesn't amount to a hill of beans and will get you stabbed for your efforts! Stupid lady, stupid guy.

[LanternWaste]

40. I imagine pop culture is quite a bit more important ...

"Sometimes being right, doesn't amount to a hill of beans..."

I imagine pop culture is quite a bit more important than convictions for many people.

[Rex]

42. Stupid lady, stupid guy

is about all that needs to be said.

[snooper2]

14. --

edit...never mind

I was mistaken

[Ian David]

24. Was the guy named Bloody Loco?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x809854

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. Where do you get that he was lighting a blunt?

Read the article 3 times, and didn't see it.

And from the way it reads, he (the smoker) was an asshole but she started and escalated the violence.

Maybe he felt he was just defending himself from her assault. This account mentions how he's a small man, says nothing about how big she was.

[Renew Deal]

27. It was in some of the older stories.

I saw it too.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. Such as the one posted by Sabrina, below?

The first 'eyewitness' states he guy had a knife - not only that, but specifically a folding knife.

It was a pen.

And you don't 'roll' a blunt - you fill it. You might roll a joint, but that would look just like rolling a cigarette.

Makes the entire 'eyewitness' story suspect.

[uppityperson]

35. Thank you.

[Renew Deal]

39. The press will write whatever comes to mind.

You say one thing and they write another.

[JonLP24]

41. I'm probably misunderstanding

but I'm pretty sure you can roll a blunt. You cut the side, dump the tobacco, and layer it with cannabis(like a joint). Then you push down on the center and fold over the top then work your way to the sides. Just like rolling a joint. Same concept as rolling a cigarette or a joint except that you have to cut it first.

[Rage for Order]

45. I've seen people "roll" blunts

Well, to the uninitiated they would appear to be rolling it. A friend of mine cuts it open down the side, fills it with his preferred blend, and then re-rolls it with some of the tobacco leaves from the cigar.

[TorchTheWitch]

54. It's the Daily Mail - they fucked it up

Surprised? A witness said he was "rolling a blunt" and when he went to light it the woman told him not to at which point the incident escalated. Many people refer to joints as blunts, and if he was seen to be "rolling" it, it was a joint, not a blunt in the strictest terms. Regardless, it wasn't a legal tobacco cigarette and was in fact pot whether he was attempting to smoke his pot in a joint or a blunt. The guy was also cited for possession of pot.

Incidently, blunts are not a mixture of tobacco and pot as some have expressed here. A blunt is a hollowed out cigar refilled with pot in order to smoke pot apparently unobtrusively in public. The term "blunt" originated from the preferred brand of cigars for this operation called Phillies Blunts.

[sabrina 1]

28. Another eyewitness account ~

Subway Subculture

The homeless guy was definitely crazy and the aggressor here, but the lady also was - in my opinion, and with hindsight - acting out of hand. It was pretty clear watching this develop that neither of them was going to step down, and that this guy was going to go after her. I can't stand people smoking or being rude on the train, but she definitely needlessly put herself (and others) at risk.

It all happened quickly and I jumped in when the fight broke out, but afterwards I thought that if the guy got to his knife (or worse) more quickly, it could have been a real bad situation.

There are worse things than people smoking on the train, and I walked away a bit later very upset at the lady.

He says he gave a statement to the police, and it was obvious 'the guy had problems'.

[Renew Deal]

30. That means that either she's crazy too, or she's wrong.

If the guy obviously has issues (which is clear by him lighting blunts on a subway train) she should have kept her mouth shut and maybe changed cars.

[Rage for Order]

32. This blog has another eyewitness account for more info

http://www.subwaysubculture.blogspot.com/

I was on this train and was one of the samaritans who held this guy down until the cops arrived. Here's some more background, which the article didn't report.
- The guy started rolling a blunt (it wasn't a cigarette, not that it truly matters), and the argument started when he tried to light it. The argument went on and was pretty aggressive (verbally) for about a minute before he swung at her and hit her with the pencil on the forehead.
- Pretty quickly after this a few witnesses pounced on the guy and pinned him in the corner of the car. He was fighting back pretty strongly, and at one point he got his hand into his pocket and grabbed a (folding) knife.
- Even though his hand was free at this time, his arm was restrained and a witness very quickly was able to take the knife away.
- It took a while between when the fight started (between 14th and Chambers, on the express) and when the cops arrived on the platform at Chambers. While we were holding him, it was pretty clear that the guy had a lot of problems. (If that was unclear previously.)
The homeless guy was definitely crazy and the aggressor here, but the lady also was - in my opinion, and with hindsight - acting out of hand. It was pretty clear watching this develop that neither of them was going to step down, and that this guy was going to go after her. I can't stand people smoking or being rude on the train, but she definitely needlessly put herself (and others) at risk.
It all happened quickly and I jumped in when the fight broke out, but afterwards I thought that if the guy got to his knife (or worse) more quickly, it could have been a real bad situation. There are worse things than people smoking on the train, and I walked away a bit later very upset at the lady.
Two more things... after giving a statement at the precinct the detective told me that the homeless guy had 56 priors. (FIFTY SIX!) And, because some other commenters alluded to race... both the man and the woman were white - it definitely wasn't a racial thing.

--Marc

[Mimosa]

44. Could she have 'called for' a Transit officer? n/t

[Renew Deal]

53. Maybe, but they wouldn't stop the train for a smoker.

Now if it was a fire or a bomb, that's a different story.

[sarcasmo]

50. Pen is much better than knife for subway revenue.

[ohheckyeah]

55. Do you know what's more inaccurate than

an eyewitness account?

Not much.