25 Dead (5 Children, 3 Women) in US Missile Strikes (Pakistan)

[tekisui]

Source: The Nation (Pakistan)

NORTH WAZIRISTAN AGE-NCY - US predators fired a barrage of missiles in North Waziristan Agency, close to the Afghan border on Friday, killing at least 25 people including civilians.

Sources said five missiles hit a house in Spinwam village of North Waziristan, adding that the attack was the worst as five children and three women were believed to be among the dead.

Local people said the death toll might rise as some people were still trapped under the debris of the ruined compound. The residents of the area rejected the US claim that the missiles targeted the militants. They said all those killed in the drone attacks were innocent people.

The drone strikes have long been a source of tension between the US and Pakistan. Pak Army and political leadership have always condemned the missile attacks. They want America to limit the strikes and provide them prior information regarding the attack. But several US officials in Islamabad and Washington have said that the CIA’s drone campaign would continue regardless of Pakistan’s objections. Pakistan is also demanding the US to hand over the drone technology so that it could target the militant hideouts in the tribal areas. It bears mentioning here that on March 17, US predator fired several missiles on a tribal Jirga in which 45 innocent people were killed and several others injured. The Friday attack was 20th drone strike in the ongoing year of 2011.

more: http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/23-Apr-2011/25-dead-in-US-missile-strikes

[Egnever]

1. Sad but

"The residents of the area rejected the US claim that the missiles targeted the militants. They said all those killed in the drone attacks were innocent people."

What else are they gonna say, Yes our village is a hotbed of radical Islamic terrorists?

[Angry Dragon]

3. .............

:thumbsdown:

[tekisui]

5. Is it a hotbead radical Islamic terrorists?

Maybe? But, it could be that they are are tired of the US blowing up the neighborhood. It could be both. And if the US wasn't piddling in their shit, would they even care about us?

[Egnever]

7. I guess you and I will never know for sure

But I personally will go with the judgement of our intelligence folks before I will buy into the protestations of the villagers.


Or maybe you think we go around intentionally bombing the shit out of innocent villages for fun?

As far as them being tired of it... Well I hope they are maybe they will take some initiative and weed these asshats out themselves instead of hiding them inside their villages.

Might doesnt make right but I dont go around poking rattlesnakes in the eye either.

[tekisui]

19. I don't think we intentionally bomb villages. Absolutely not.

I think we work hard to avoid that. But, our own hubris and might-makes-right attitude prevents us from seeing the damage we do. I think we cause more harm than good. I am just not convinced that all or even most of these people would be against us if we weren't bombing their neighbors.

Dead civilians at the hands of a pilotless drone is an easy recruitment tool. And, what we are doing is nothing new. Years into it, can you show that these tactics have had any positive effect for us?

[Egnever]

27. I could agree with you to an extent

I dont think waging wars in other peoples countries makes us many friend in those countries however I dont think allowing terrorist free reign in a country to plan attacks on us or other countries is a good idea either. There is no good choice here.

[tekisui]

30. I guess the question in my mind is whether we are making it better or worse.

Many of the so called terrorists that we kill have yet to commit an act against any US interest. Others have only acted against the US presence that they have know for their formative years. We have occupied and killed in the neighboring country for over a decade.

I honestly don't see how our continued presence, especially from drone attacks, can ever be a positive. For every innocent we kill, we rally a family against us.

[Egnever]

34. I question that as well

However again I dont find doing nothing to be an option. We are not by far the only victims of these people they carry out attacks all over the world against many countries. We have the advantage of being somewhat protected by the oceans surrounding us other countries are not so lucky and are attacked regularly despite them not being the ones bombing the crap out of the terrorist enclaves.

I dont want to see innocents die any more than the next guy but I do think if innocents are going to die we make the best effort we can to make sure that bad guys go with them. I dont find the Idea of walking away to let them bomb innocents indiscriminately themselves to be acceptable.

[tekisui]

36. Have you ever considered they hate us because we bomb the shit out of

them regularly?

[Egnever]

38. And why do they hate spain and france and indonesia

cause they bomb them as well.

[tekisui]

40. Is that problem helped by our bombing?

I just don't see how us bombing them can help us, Spain, France or Indonesia.

In fact, as long as those nations are seen as allies, I can understand how is could exacerbate it.

[Egnever]

44. Oh boy

So in your mind we should just allow them to do so cause trying to prevent it mike make them mad. We on the other hand should never be mad they bombed us or our allies cause we deserve it.

You are feel to feel this way if you so choose but dont expect me to join you in your self loathing.

[tekisui]

46. Allow "them" to do what, exactly?

It is not the unified singular body you are trying to paint. Who is them?

I find it so funny when people equate the Taliban and AL-Quaeda and then equate either of them to any and all attack on a western interest. You must be more specific. We are told to believe that those who are bombed in Pakistan are the same as those who attacked us on 9/11 and other nations later. But, that is to ignore reality and is laughable.

[Egnever]

48. Seriously? Are you trying to say there arent attacks being carried out worldwide?

Who said anything about al-quaeda or the talliban? Who tells me to believe these are the people that bombed us on 9-11? These people are terrorists plotting attacks on us and other countries I dont give a rats ass what they call themselves.

Just because Rachel doesn't talk about attacks that happen in other countries doesn't mean they dont happen all the time and if you are naive enough to believe that bushes bumbling didnt allow a bunch of these idiots who were congregated in Afghanistan to slip over the border into Pakistan well Laughable doesn't begin to describe what I think of your reality.

[tekisui]

50. Be afraid!!!!!

We should fear and kill everyone, anyone!!!!! They are all out to get us. And, none because we have been killing them for years, right? Hahahahaa.

No. no. It isn't Taliban or Al-Queda. It is a rag-tag bunch of poor idiots in Pakistan. Be afraid.Be very afraid. Enought to support killing women and children. Fuck, I don't know if I can sleep well tonight knowing that threat is out there. Please, bomb some more. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Egnever]

55. I am not the least bit afraid

You are the one who acts out of fear that they might get mad at us for trying to track them down and eliminate them.

[tekisui]

57. Nice try at deflection.

I do think that we exacerbate the problem. But, I think that the sooner we get out, the better. You seem think we are there for a positive reason. I disagree. No good can come from us killing innocent people in Pakistan.

[Egnever]

58. Well then I guess we dissagree.

I have no problem with that you are free to think whatever you want.

[tekisui]

60. I shake your hand here. We disagree. And so be it.

[Name removed]

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[tekisui]

72. I hear you. I regret the offer.

[Vehl]

102. my take on the reason for such events

Is the over-reliance, and abundant availability on/of ultra high tech(and ultra expensive) weapons.

The American military has, imho gotten used to having these easy-stuff available that they are somewhat prone to use it without a second thought. This was a common complaint by SAS men who trained with their delta force counterparts...that Americans always try to use the "fast and easy" way of solving military problems with overwhelming force...just cos they have the tools available. Why use a squad of soldiers if u can blow up an entire building? Sue it drastically reduces the amount of danger soldiers would have to face if they were to do it the usual way..instead of lobbing smart bombs. But where does one draw the line?

An Indian brigadier whom I had the opportunity to talk to, once told me that the American army is fast forgetting the concept of a "graduated response" to military situations. Instead of first thinking if a given problem could be solved without resorting to extreme(and expensive) solutions(like "lets fire a guided missile), they are more and more trending towards choosing such extreme and expensive solutions.

As he put it " If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail "


I'm sure there is a bit of envy in the British and Indian comments about the American Military's way of doing things..however one wonders about the billions which could be saved...and also the lives as well if some moderation is taken in the part of the commanders.

[Mimosa]

87. What if another 'Super Power' were here, occupying the US?

How would 'we' act?

[atreides1]

6. Evidently not sad enough

The US makes claims that they can't prove either, but it doesn't stop them, does it?

[Egnever]

8. I dont dispute that

However I am way more inclined to believe our intelligence people in this case then these folks.

[bluestate10]

10. So am I. nt

[MadHound]

12. Why?

Our intelligence service is piss poor, it's been the joke of the world for the past century.

Example: You know how our intelligence service figured out who the enemy was in Vietnam?

Anybody who ran from them.

We haven't made much, if any, progress in the intervening decades.

[Egnever]

14. And these villagers success rate is what?

Again I dont buy into the idea that we just go around bombing people for the heck of it. You are free to disagree with me all you want but your pious bullshit isnt going to change my mind.

[MadHound]

16. Not pious bullshit,

But rather a matter of historical record. The US has indeed just gone around, bombing people for the heck of it, war after war, year after year, country after country. Your historical ignorance in these matters is astounding, really. Cuba, the Philippines, Guatemala, Vietnam, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Iraq, the list is a long one. Yet you continue to be either gullible, or willfully ignorant of these historical realities. Why?

[Egnever]

18. Yes theres never any reason for it they just point at a map and say bomb them

Your assertions are ridiculous.

[Name removed]

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[Egnever]

22. LOL

War is hell no one like innocents killed but then allowing these cretins free reign to plan their attacks would end with innocents who truly had nothing to do with it being killed instead of people who looked the other way as these asshats lived among them

And again your attempts to shame me are pitiful especially considering I find your simplistic view of the world so laughable.

[MadHound]

25. Well, I guess we're even, for I find your lack of a conscience chilling

My only hope is that when the full story of these atrocities come out, that you will finally feel shame and guilt for your support, your actions.

[Egnever]

28. LOL

Pathetic

[Name removed]

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[Egnever]

75. LOL

[tekisui]

79. +1

[themadstork]

31. Ah, so we're engaging in the preventative killing of innocents. Kill innocents now so they don't

get killed later.

Well that sure clears it all up.

[Egnever]

37. So you would find it better if they were killing innocent americans or europeans instead then.

Me I'll take the "innocents" that choose to live with them over the Innocents who have no connection to any of it whatsoever.

You are free to make your own value judgements, I will continue to make mine.

[Name removed]

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[Egnever]

76. wow losing it I see

[themadstork]

83. Wow, to an extent that was a caricature of your position.

Kind of shocking to see you actually agree with it. I think the sensible position to take is to simply avoid killing innocents at all cost. Full stop. Once you start playing poker with innocent victims' lives all morality kinda slips right down the hellhole.

[Vinnie From Indy]

109. So, would it be terrorism if one of the relatives of these dead people

blew up your house with your loved ones inside in revenge for their dead children?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

93. You're being very trite with people's lives

You've made the phrase "war is hell" almost meaningless. I truly believe that war is hell, and I wish you wouldn't cheapen it by using it in half a sentence whose main purpose is to attempt to justify these bombings. The US has done lots of bad things worldwide. Would you call it justified if some group bombed your street, your neighbors, your family? Now explain to me how that's a false equivalency.

[themadstork]

100. I agree. I hate how the "war is hell" line has become an all-purpose excuse for amoral behavior.

[MadHound]

11. So you're OK with the US illegally, immorally killing the population of a country

That we're, at least nominally, at war with?

[Egnever]

13. Thats purely your opinion not mine

I am completely ok with going after terrorists that have tried to use pakistans acceptance of them to jump across the boarder to hide out.

Yup I have no problem with it whatsoever.

[MadHound]

15. Not a matter of opinion, a matter of fact

The fact of the matter is that we are violating the sovereignty of another nation, taking war into Pakistan, a country that we've never declared war on, and one that is, at least nominally, our ally.

Women and children as terrorists? Your soul must be a very black one if you condone this sort of action.

[Egnever]

17. LOL

terrorist sheild themselves with women and children all the time. I dont blame us for that happening I blame the terrorists I think your priorities are fucked up. They are yours though so feel free to try to sheild the terrorist from harm all you want, Ill take a pass. Your attempts to shame me are pathetic BTW.

[MadHound]

23. What terrorists?

The people fighting for their homes, their lives, in the face of an imperial invasion?

You do realize that there are less than one hundred Al Qaeda members in the whole of Afghanistan, and not many more than that in Pakistan.

The fact of the matter is that you're using the same reasoning that hawks used in Vietnam. Anybody who was against them was immediately labeled a communist, Viet Cong, and thus turned into the feared enemy. Now we're just replacing the word communist and Viet Cong with terrorist, and presto, changeo, they're now the enemy.

Easier to kill and maim an enemy than an innocent human being. Always salves the conscience when you objectify people.

[Egnever]

32. This wasnt in afghanistan

And of course there are less than 100 there we kicked their ass out , guess what genius they ran to Pakistan who have done nothing to try to dispel them, hence our drone attacks.

You really are a tool of pacifist propaganda. Its cute sort of but dont expect me to take you seriously.

[MadHound]

47. Ah, so according to your reckoning,

It is OK to pursue "terrorists"(even though these are people who haven't committed any crime against the US, other than defending themselves), no matter where they go. Be it Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Sudan, wherever, just come in and blow the hell out of them, killing untold innocents. Is that what you're saying? Violate the sovereignty of any country these people are in, make war without restraint, is that what you're advocating?

If that's the case, what makes the US any different from terrorists?

[Egnever]

49. first what makes you so sure these peopl;e havent commited any crimes?

Do you have access to the intelligence on these people or are you just talking out of your ass?

[MadHound]

53. So, you're advocating for the position of guilty until proven innocent?

Wow, not only a war pig, but one who little values basic matters of justice and American principles.

Are you sure you're living in the right country?

[Egnever]

56. LOL

I am quite fine with what my country is doing in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Maybe you are living in the wrong country? I am quite sure you could move to Pakistan any time you wish.

[Forkboy]

64. Your arguments in this thread, such as they are, are some seriously weak sauce.

[Egnever]

74. Another chorus boy joins in

I found your post so compelling I changed my mind.:rofl:

[Forkboy]

81. You love the attention, admit it.

[polly7]

107. +1000

[DisgustipatedinCA]

94. He's right. Your attempts at shaming him are misguided

Sociopaths can't be reached with shame.

[themadstork]

33. You have also blamed the women and children for "allowing" themselves to be used as shields.

Pretty sick. Somehow I doubt that you'd do much about the Big Bad Terrorists if they moved into your village. It's not as easy as knocking and asking "Hey, do you mind." They've got the guns, and the people with the guns tend to do what they want.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[themadstork]

85. Not everybody can pick up and move at the drop of a hat.

And I think you know that perfectly well. Not sure why you're being so disingenuous here.

[tekisui]

82. Those weak and sorry women and children, right?

Why didn't they exert themselves? They were asking for it, huh?

[themadstork]

88. Kind of like blaming the rape victim for living next door to a rapist.

They should have known better than to exist in that location!

[gratuitous]

24. Predictable but

What else is our military going to say, Yes our missiles were fired indiscriminately without knowing what was under them in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions? That's a war crime after all, and nobody wants to face a death penalty just for a bunch of women and kids halfway around the world.

[Egnever]

41. So another person willing to believe some villager over our military inteligence

Cool for you !

[DisgustipatedinCA]

95. put me on that list too

Yes, I'd believe just about any villager in any country on the globe over our military intelligence--the odds of hearing some truth are much better.

Why, in particular, have you opted to trust what our military intelligence publicly disseminates? I'd love to hear your well-reasoned position.

[gratuitous]

111. Wow, got it in one

And here I didn't think someone whose handle is "Revenge" was quite that smart.

[atreides1]

2. "Let us win your hearts and minds....

...or we'll burn down your f**king huts".

[Angry Dragon]

4. Video Wars

You too can join the fight to protect your country from the Evil Empire
Join now and control machines to help kill everyone without getting your hands dirty

[bluestate10]

9. If women and children allow terrorists to gain cover among them, the US should

take missile strikes to kill terrorists. Sounds harsh, but the harsh tactics that groups like the taliban and al qaida employ gives no other option but striking hard when terrorist figures gather in mass or when a major target is found.

[Name removed]

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[tekisui]

26. Amazing position you are taking.

Those children should have revolted, huh? Let me ask you, what did those 'militants' that we killed with those women and children actually ever do to the US?

Did they ever attack you? Or, did they just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[Name removed]

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[themadstork]

35. Gives no other option?

I'm pretty sure "Hmmm, maybe we shouldn't blow up the kiddies" is still an option.

If you lived in N.Waziristan, please, tell me, how exactly would you go about preventing yourself being used as a meat-shield?

[Egnever]

42. I would move

pretty hard to figure out I know.

[tekisui]

54. You are so much better than the average Pakistani, huh?

[Egnever]

59. Nope probably no better

But I try to chose a safe neighborhood for my family not one that is full of people plotting to kill others.

[Name removed]

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[Egnever]

73. Nope children have no choice

That doesnt mean we let these people go about their business unhindered. If you feel the need to blame someone blame the pakistan government for refusing to do something about this themselves. Though I dont blame them as they are barely holding onto power themselves and its because of that they give a wink and an nod to these drone attacks. If they went after these folks they would likely lose control of their government and then we would have a real shitstorm on our hands.

This is clearly not the best way to go about this but because of very real problems inside of Pakistan it is how we are forced to deal with it. I wish the pakistan government were stronger and they could provide real security in the northern areas where this stuff is going on but they arent and they cant and so we are forced into this sharade where the pakistani goverment pretends it doesnt like whats going on and at the same time gives Washington the go ahead.

It sucks but because of a lot of different concerns in the region it is what we are forced to deal with. Unlike you I am not willing to just let these people plot unhindered, I would much prefer we could find another way to help the pakistani government provide true security in these areas however that is not what we have today and until we do I will not fault my government for doing its best to make sure these bad guys dont have a safe haven to operate from.

[Forkboy]

65. Well, your subject line is correct, at least.

[Name removed]

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[tekisui]

91. They try to kill us because we are there, killing them.

See how that works. We are making it unsafe for them and us.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

96. um....you DO live in a neighborhood full of people plotting to kill others

What the fuck do you think Nellis Air Force Base is?

[Bluenorthwest]

43. And how would you propose that children disallow terrorists

among them? That is one sick statement. The children allow this? So you are fine with killing children? Because they allow terrorism?

[Egnever]

45. Whats sick is these asshats using children as sheilds

[tekisui]

61. Likewise it is sick the US military killing children, don't you think?

I do not support that.

[Forkboy]

67. You didn't answer the question.

[Egnever]

78. It wasnt a serious question

It was yet another attempt to try to shame someone into dispelling reality for the sake of the children!:boring:

[Forkboy]

80. Well, you're clearly beyond shaming, that's for sure.

:crazy:

[EFerrari]

71. By that logic, we should have bombed New Jersey and California, too.

[bluestate10]

97. Nope. Completely different circumstances. Terrorists use women and children as shields.

The question for the military and CIA when those organizations have a high value target in the gun-sights and that terrorists is hiding among women and children is whether to let him live to another day, or kill him on the spot. That terrorists living more days could very well mean that tens of innocent men, women and children looking for food in a bizarre will get blown to pieces. To prevent the latter, my vote is to strike terrorists where found and not wait for another chance.

[tekisui]

98. Kill them before they become terrorists? Kill so that we create more

terrorists? This is a stupid strategy and only makes us less safe.

[EFerrari]

112. Right. By your logic, we should have bombed California and New Jersey

before the 9/11 bombers got on those planes.

[Name removed]

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[slipslidingaway]

68. knr - there were over 4 million people displaced in Iraq in a country of 25 million...

people did not care very much, nor did they care about estimates of millions of orphans, why should they care about another 5 children and 3 women.

:puke:

[The Northerner]

90. Agreed

[tekisui]

86. KIck!!!!

[JCMach1]

89. Terrorists=innocents unless it is the Pakistani army fighting them and then

only if the ISSI tells them so.

[bluestate10]

99. The day will arrive soon where a terrorist can be killed in a strike that

will kill that person and injure no one else. But such precision requires small remotely controlled weapons that are being perfected. Until the day when an individual terrorist can be eliminated as that person stands among some innocents, I can live with a handful of people affiliated with the terrorist, but not themselves a terrorist dying in missile strike because hundreds of innocent lives will be saved by the strike.

[Forkboy]

105. Jesus.

:freak:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

92. No doubt the murderer directing the missiles will be put on trial.

And, probably held at Quantico and subjected to their dress code.

Won't he/she?

[bluestate10]

101. No. And they should not. Soldiers are following orders. I view orders

to eliminate terrorists as morally correct orders. The alternative is to allow people to live that will kill hundreds, if not thousands of innocent people. There is no moral equivalence between three affiliated innocents dying and hundreds, even thousands of innocents that are just struggling to live each day dying at the hands of terrorist beasts. I fail to see why you have obviously equated the two as the same.

[tekisui]

103. You believe those fear-mongering lies?

You really believe that the handful of extremists hiding out in Pakistan are a threat to our national security?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

104. Murder is murder.

Killing innocents is still killing innocents no matter what the justification. The "terrorists" are also claiming that their killing of innocents is justified by protecting the lives of thousands of innocents threatened by the United States and it's allies. And, comparing the numbers killed by terrorist versus the numbers killed by "anti-terrorists" since 9/11 they have a pretty good case.

I see no difference between women and children being killed by drone fired missiles and women and children being killed by home made bombs. And, I consider the perpetrators murderers in both cases.

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Mohandas K. Gandhi

[The Midway Rebel]

106. kicked

to expose the ignorance and blood lust among us

[Vinnie From Indy]

108. Why is it that warmongers are such bad spellers?

I think there is a link there somewhere between spelling and warmongering.

[formernaderite]

110. I had high hopes two years ago

that all the seneseless killing would end. I don't know what happened...I guess I'm feeling like an old naieve hippie once more.