Nobel peace drones - Glenn Greenwald

[slipslidingaway]

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/04/22/drone/index.html

A U.S. drone attack in Pakistan killed 23 people this morning, and this is how The New York Times described that event in its headline and first paragraph:


...When I saw that, I was going to ask how the NYT could possibly know that the people whose lives the U.S. just ended were "militants," but then I read further in the article and it said this: "A government official in North Waziristan told Pakistani reporters that five children and four women were among the 23 who were killed." So at least 9 of the 23 people we killed -- at least -- were presumably not "militants" at all, but rather innocent civilians (contrast how the NYT characterizes Libya’s attacks in its headlines: "Qaddafi Troops Fire Cluster Bombs Into Civilian Areas").

...

Beyond that, isn't it painfully obvious that however many “militants” we're killing, we're creating more and more all the time? How many family members, friends, neighbors and villagers of the "five children and four women" we just killed are now consumed with new levels of anti-American hatred? How many Pakistani adolescents who hear about these latest killings are now filled with an eagerness to become "militants"?

...Finally, when the OLC released its rationale for why the President was permitted to involve the U.S in Libya without Congressional approval, its central claim was that -- due the very limited nature of our involvement and the short duration -- this does not "constitute[] a 'war' within the meaning of the Declaration of War Clause" (Adam Serwer has more on this reasoning). Now that our involvement has broadened to include drone attacks weeks into this conflict, with no end in sight, can we agree that the U.S. is now fighting a "war" and that this therefore requires Congressional approval?

* * * * *

A new NYT/CBS poll today finds that only 39% approve of Obama's handling of Libya, while 45% disapprove (see p. 17). That's what happens when a President starts a new war without any pretense of democratic debate, let alone citizenry consent through the Congress."

[Mimosa]

1. If a 'Super Power' occupied the US to establish a different type of government...

Our people would probably resist.

The violence of these wars is causing grief, depression and anger in millions! of families in the Middle East. Imagine living in villages torn apart by wars. Imagine seeing the armed occupiers and hearing the helicopters loudly whirring overhead all the time. I learned -to a slight degree- what it must be like to live under military occupation in the weeks after Katrina when Humvees with armed US kid troops were rolling all about New Orleans. And the noises, the constant noises, of the helicopter blades overhead added to stress, not to mention the 'checkpoints'.

Such stress can drive the occupiers and the occupied insane. :(

[slipslidingaway]

2. I cannot even imagine what the stress must be like for families living in these ...

areas for months and years, guess the only consolation is that the helicopters and planes did not have live ammunition and were not dropping bombs on you.

:(

[truth2power]

12. You are empathetic, mimosa. Just the fact that you say,

"Imagine living..." or "Imagine seeing..." tells me that. You're part of a vanishing breed, I fear.

[axollot]

28. Empathy is what the GOP/RW/Fascist bastards lack. Progressives

from every background - the very wealthy to the very poor have empathy for others. Just like Ayn Randian ideologues find in her books justification to be selfish, greedy, monstrous people. Progressives, cannot stand an unjust world where others are treated poorly.

Cheers
Sandy

[inna]

3. kr kr kr

[GomezLives]

4. How do we know the Pakistani govt. official wasnt lying??

We really dont.

[Bluebear]

6. No, you're right. So let's continue to ignore the warmongering.

[nonperson]

7. Recent experience in Iraq and Afghanistan for starters

Not to mention Vietnam.

Contrary to what our government and military leaders would have us believe, missiles fired from drones don't have names on them and they do indeed kill the innocent along with so-called militants. Or do you really believe those images of "smart" bombs being dropped down chimneys killing only the bad guys?

Think about this for a second. If your town was under air attack do you really believe only "militants" would be killed by the falling bombs?

[slipslidingaway]

21. Welcome to DU :) n/t

[axollot]

29. Welcome to DU! We need more like you and less like the poster

you're responding too. I am so sick of people finding justification for our actions overseas! I've said the same thing even before we "shock and awed" Iraq. That the Iraqi's will fight back, not welcome us! And to my friends on the right and the few on the left that supported our unjust occupation I told them "how would you feel if another country came in and took out OUR leaders, whether they were just or unjust?" The answer always was "they would pick up a gun and defend their country" What the hell do they expect these folks to do?

It's long past time that Dear Leader stood up to the powers that be and TOLD THE AMERICAN PEOPLE what he is up against - that is, if he has ever been against this sort of behavior and is actually under pressure by the MIC and WS.

Cheers
Sandy

[truth2power]

13. Of course. They COULD be lying...

But I wonder why your first response would be that perhaps it's a lie.

Haven't we all seen enough pictures of Afghans, Iraqis, etc. cradling the bloody remains of their children, to know that that's what the American government does? They kill women and children and other innocents.

Have you ever thought - I mean really thought, what it would be like to gather up the PIECES of your child because some foreign army invaded your country in the service of the great-god oil??

Probably not.

[axollot]

30. Mate, I sure have - I cried as I cradled my 7mo pregnant stomach

when bombs dropped on Baghdad. March 2003, my daughter will be 8 in May. (2 older children; 21 and 17 and about to be a grandmother). This is not the world I want them to inherit.
I fear our time will come, and it will be much worse than 9/11 at least they didnt target kids. Mostly commuter planes into mostly empty buildings w/adults in them. Not towns w/schools and Day-Cares.

*weeps for what we have become, under Obama - it makes it that much worse, because I DO expect better from him*

Cheers
Sandy

[sabrina 1]

17. We know, because it has been verified, that drones are killing

civilians at a rate of at least, 10 civilians, to every one supposed 'terrorist'. Both the governments of Pakistan and Afghanistan have demanded an end to the killing of civilians by drones.

Most civilized people in the world have called for these cowardly, killers to be banned totally.

Let's keep ignoring millions of people asking for an end to these killings! That's how to end 'terrorism'. :sarcasm:

The world now views the U.S. as the biggest threat to World Peace. I don't think there are too many people anymore who believe a word THIS government has to say. THAT is the harm that has been done to this country by warmongering liars.

I find it despicable that there is anyone in THIS country who defend the murder of even one innocent child by these brutal, cruel and cowardly weapons.

But we are paying a heavy price for all of it! We are simply no longer respected or trusted, anywhere. And that will diminish our power. The world is rapidly changing, in South America, in Africa and the ME and what this country is being told is 'stay out of our business'. We have caused heartache and suffering to millions of human beings over the past several decades, and now they have had enough. Our support for the world's worst dictators, our illegal invasions and theft of resources, it was bound to come to an end sooner or later.

We did think when Obama was elected, that those necessary changes would begin. Instead he has only enhanced Bush's policies and expanded them.

[Angry Dragon]

24. ........

:thumbsdown:

[The Northerner]

5. K&R nt

[malaise]

8. K & R

Sickening

[Karmadillo]

9. K&R. If this keeps up, a fourth term for George W Bush may be in jeopardy.

nt

[slipslidingaway]

10. Thanks for the knr's :) n/t

[MasonJar]

11. Obama did not deserve that award. The Nobel Committee

should have waited to see if he acted in such a way as to earn it. He had not had an opportunity to win it to that point. I doubt he would get it now. It was a slam at Bush I presume.

[truth2power]

14. If I know anything at all, I know he did not deserve that award. But I continue

to wonder what their reasoning was. Can't figure it out.

[slipslidingaway]

19. Agreed, other than a slam at Bush, which it was, still wonder why the committee...

gave him this award. He had already stated that he planned to escalate the war in Afghanistan.

[leftstreet]

15. K&R

[Arkansas Granny]

16. Slate magazine had an article about drone warfare a few months ago.

Ban Drone-Porn War Crimes

http://www.slate.com/id/2265655/

[slipslidingaway]

20. Thanks for that link ...

snip ...

"...Back in the USA, we learned at the end of August that a Navy test of a new model drone had gone awry earlier in the month because of a "software issue." The Navy's own special "Fire Scout" test drone had gotten out of control of the drone-porn jockeys who were remote-piloting it in the vicinity of Patuxent, Md. The drone started wandering erratically toward—and then through—protected Washington, D.C., airspace. It looked like we might be attacked by our own drone! Control was regained before the drone could do any damage. But the episode at least suggested a better name than the straight-arrow "Fire Scout," such a wimpy name compared to "Ambassador of Death." How about "Ambassador of DUI"?

Seriously though, it was almost as if we needed a dramatic reminder of the drone problem: as if the Ambassador of DUI had been summoned by the guilt of the collective unconscious to remind us, "Hey, Washington, time to start giving some thought to the whole war-crime thing with the drones."

There has been some valuable reporting on the subject, notably by Jane Mayer in The New Yorker and by the legendary Nat Hentoff; Wired's Nathan Hodge and Noah Schactman have covered the war crimes issue; Tara McKelvey has kept track of drone developments and previously adumbrated the split in the military boy's club between COIN, the cult of counterinsurgency (the cult of Petraeus and McChrystal actually), which believes in "nation building" and "population protection"—long-war tactics will wear down insurgencies—and the rival cult of counterterrorism that says forget population protection; drone killing is quicker and cheaper.

In fact, if you ask me, neither will work, since we lack the time and will for nation building, even if it were doable, while the "counterterrorist" drones may well create more terrorists than they kill. Americans have a penchant for believing there is a solution to every big problem—"solutionism" it's been called. But here all the options are infeasible or bad. And so naturally we avert our eyes and hope the whole thing will go away..."

[KoKo]

25. the "rogue drone" in the USA is a good read...sad read..but,

if it happened here, imagine "rogues" gone errant in all of the countries we invaded. Collateral damage would be heavy. So many innocents killed...and for what.

[crickets]

18. K&R

Now that our involvement has broadened to include drone attacks weeks into this conflict, with no end in sight, can we agree that the U.S. is now fighting a "war" and that this therefore requires Congressional approval?

I'll agree, for all the good it will do. Once there was some sort of coalition with a foot in the Libyan door, anybody with any sense of recent history could see we would get around to killing people. How long before we have boots on the ground (other than the CIA 'teams') and another round of base building, hmm? It would be a sick joke to finally get troops out of Iraq only to see them sent to yet another war.


edit: spelling

[slipslidingaway]

22. It surely would be a sick joke and I hope it does not come to that...

we're still building bases in Afghanistan that will not be done until sometime later this year.

But we need to look forward and cut entitlement spending :(

[KoKo]

26. K&R!

[Senator]

23. K&+R

[axollot]

27. kick. Sickening. And then here at home they want to hurt seniors

and disabled by taking away medicare. Say it loud and tell anyone who challenges about the deficit that it would be much less if we were not spending 8 BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH ON 3 WARS!

Enough. It was too early into Obama's presidency to hand him a Nobel Prize for peace - I had hoped, it would change that he would remain the President he campaigned to be. Is he still better than a GOP dictator? Hell yes. But stale bread from a rubbish bin is also better than starving....

Cheers
Sandy
With the empire falling - and it IS falling - beware of the GOP Govs acting as dictators and pushing out the Federal Government. I just cannot stress this enough, we'll become and truly becoming "Banana States; A Republic once United" and that my friends is by design.

[BetsysGhost]

31. hollow words

http://pakistanbodycount.org/dattacks.php

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34360743/ns/politics-white_house//

[krabigirl]

32. It is absolutely disgusting.

[earcandle]

33. I got a feeling US is trying to kill all of the suicide clones made from sperm banks and

birthed in the secret hills of Pakistan.... made from drug
money, raised in cages, groomed to die the great death... can
we find the training films they brainwashed them with?  we can
use that to track the drug money made in Afghan to the pyscho
who staged the births.... 

maybe that is what the "birther" syndrome is all
about... a freudian slip?  a guilt trip projected....?  those
repukes are stage 4 presenters of disasters all over the
world... 

regarding weather and earthquake problems, check out HAARP.
What those satelites and submarines up to.... find the clues
,,,it might be this simple, and made to appear miraculous or
grandiose by projecting those 3D gods in the sky....staging
technological platforms on self destruct.  

root out the evil and don't put any pretense above these
guys... they are sick puppies.  
time to put them to rest in some cages of their own... with
free egg tosses to all.