So, is NATO bombing Tripoli now? Is that what "raid" means?

[EFerrari]

Reported on Friday:

More NATO raids on Tripoli, top US senator backs rebels

by Dominique Soguel Dominique Soguel – Fri Apr 22, 11:07 pm ET

BENGHAZI, Libya (AFP) – NATO carried out fresh air raids on Tripoli Saturday as Moamer Kadhafi's government planned to withdraw from the besieged third city of Misrata and leave local tribes to fight off insurgents.

Senior US Senator John McCain urged the Western coalition on Friday to launch intensified air strikes against Libyan troops and recognise the rebels' council as he became the highest-ranking US politician to visit the rebel-held east since the popular uprising began in mid-February.

Rebels bogged down in their bid to oust Kadhafi on Friday hailed a US decision to deploy armed drones over Libya.

"We hope that this can bring some relief to the people in Misrata," the rebels' media liaison Mustafa Gheriani told AFP of the rebel-held city in western Libya that has been pounded by Kadhafi's forces for more than six weeks, leaving hundreds dead.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110423/ts_afp/libyaconflict_20110423030841

Reported by Al Arabiya just now:

Blasts heard as NATO warplanes again raid Tripoli: AFP #Alarabiya #Libya
9 minutes ago via web

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110423/ts_afp/libyaconflict_20110423030841

[tabatha]

1. They are bombing weapons stores and other military targets.

Gaddafi surrounded Tripoli and Serte with weapons caches, military equipment etc.

In answer to your question about what they are bombing, you can follow the daily reports by NATO here:

http://twitter.com/#!/natopress

For instance, for April 21, they bombed the following:

Key Targets and Engagements**
21 April:
In vicinity of Tripoli: 8 ammunition storage bunkers.
In vicinity of Misurata: 1 tank, 1 anti-aircraft gun.
In vicinity of Zintan: 1 military vehicle.
In vicinity of Ajdabiya: 4 tanks, 5 military vehicles.
In vicinity of Brega: 2 tanks, 1 multiple rocket

http://www.nato.int/nato_static/assets/pdf/pdf_2011_04/20110422_110422-oup-update.pdf

[meow mix]

4. k&r

:fistbump:

[sabrina 1]

11. McCain says they are bombing Libyan troops.

This is way beyond a NFZ. It is war. Also, civilians are in that area and some have reported killed.

Clearly the Libyan people are not behind this uprising or it would have been over by now.

If a majority of the people do not want their country invaded by the same warmongers who are in Afghanistan and Iraq, that is their right.

I can't believe that people on the left are now supporting another Iraq, because that is what it is about to become.

And it's all about oil, it is NOT about the people of Libya.

Seeing Warmonger McCain there, and the support from the PNAC criminals should be enough to stop any support for this new war for oil.

[tabatha]

16. Clearly the Libyan people are not behind this uprising or it would have been over by now.

Please provide the evidence.

Iran was/is against the regime - why is there no change there?
Syria, Bahrain, Yemen - all want change, but it has not happened. Why not?

[sabrina 1]

31. It hasn't happened in Bahrain because the US and Saudi

Arabia are backing the government there against the rebels.

Same thing in Yemen. No help for the rebels in any of those situations.

But after a month of outside help in Libya for the rebels, reports say that the rebel faction itself is now splintered. Many of the original rebels have stated that they feel betrayed and have gone home to protect their own homes.

It is truly important to know how the Libyan people as a whole feel about what is going on. We were kept from knowing what the Iraqi as a whole wanted.

I will NEVER support another Iraq, and the original Libyan rebels stated over and over again that they did not want foreign troops on their soil, and that they did not want Libya to become another Iraq 'abused and destroyed' and their oil taken over by Multi Nationals.

Those original rebels are not the spokespersons McCain is meeting with. He is meeting with the US ex pats who are saying what the Western powers want to hear. Just like Iraq.

It is all beginning to look so like Iraq, with the ex-pats taking over and then asking for foreign intervention.

We've seen this movie before, and so have the Libyan people.

[tabatha]

40. So you know how long it should take to defeat Gaddafi?

Could you tell me how long it will take for the US economy to rebound?

"But after a month of outside help in Libya for the rebels, reports say that the rebel faction itself is now splintered."
Link please?

[EFerrari]

17. And presumably anyone who turns up dead was a government troop.

Thank goodness those storage bunkers won't be flying in Libyan airspace.

[tabatha]

18. I love the substantive, all-sides-considered

non bumper-sticker-like responses, where the "logic" defies any attempt to be rational.

Just a complete logic salad.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[tabatha]

41. For your information,

I hated the Iraq war. I never supported it at all.

Once again making shit up.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

62. Well, no. I asked you a question and pointed out

that there is no rational way to justify hitting even a munitions depot when the object is to protect citizens with a no fly zone.

[MedleyMisty]

44. No

But you're getting your Libya news from Gaddafi. Libyan state TV isn't any different than Fox - well, Fox isn't yet able to show public executions, but I'm sure they're looking forward to that.

Rumsfeld is bad. It's logic salad to say that therefore Gaddafi must be good.

[EFerrari]

61. LOL. It would be, however, I haven't said that.

:)

[Hannah Bell]

sure they are. with their magic targeted bombs.

this operation & the propaganda accompanying it = bullshit from start to finish.

[meow mix]

2. nice, hope we got our targets

end of ghadaffi coming up! hes well cornered

[Buzz Clik]

3. Not at all. It's the same connotation as raiding the fridge.

Just a quick trip for something delicious.

:eyes:

[Davis_X_Machina]

5. Every Libyan rebel killed....

....is a black eye for the US-led, oil-driven, capitalist, imperialist, militarist invasion!

And keeps the world view I acquired in the 60's and 70's intact, untouched, unchallenged!

Which may be even more important!

A double victory!

[meow mix]

6. um, were helping the rebels

and they want us there to help fight a sadist.. very badly.

just thought id mention that

[hedgehog]

7. Aiding the rebels while disposing of Gaddafi in hopes of getting

a better deal on Libyan oil are not mutually exclusive activities.

[MedleyMisty]

13. Nope, it's not

and the Libyans are fully aware of that. They're not stupid. And neither are those of us who support their fight for freedom.

[tabatha]

39. It has nothing to do with oil.

In fact, France and Italy the biggest customers of Libyan oil, are being hurt by this effort. They were doing fine before the revolution started.

[hedgehog]

45. I've got my eye on the UK in this - IMO they're up to something.

[Davis_X_Machina]

8. They're the..

...wrong kind of rebels.

Real rebels rise up heroically, against their repressive, US-backed, neo-colonialist, right-wing dictatorships.

Those are the kinds of rebels I grew up supporting, and I'm too damned old to re-think things now!

[dipsydoodle]

10. Yes - like Cuba did.

[MedleyMisty]

12. I was born in 1980

Huh. That may explain why I can't get the pro-Gaddafi viewpoint. Thanks!

:)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. I was born in 1944 and can't get the pro-war viewpoint.

[MedleyMisty]

28. I'm not pro-war

I have never been and will never be pro-war. I have real problems seeing the people who cheered for the Iraq invasion as something approaching human. The day we started bombing Afghanistan was the day I started to hate my country.

However, the Libyans felt the need to take up arms to defend themselves against Gaddafi's brutality. The protests started out peaceful. They didn't want things to go this way. They wanted it to be like Egypt and Tunisia. But Gaddafi is much more insane and brutal than Ben Ali or Mubarak. He used anti-aircraft weapons on people. He bombed them. He bombarded them with GRADs. He brought in mercenaries. Libyans in the military who defected were shot and killed - it hasn't been confirmed but I heard that one group who defected was locked inside their barracks and burned to death. There were reports of Libyan pilots found chained into their seats and their parachutes missing, of people tied to their tanks, of a corpse in Misrata with "Oh Misrata, I was forced" written on the hand.

There is a huge difference between invading a country for its resources or for stupid ideological reasons, and defending yourself and your loved ones against an insane dictator. I can't find it within myself to blame and judge the Libyans for taking up arms. I just can't. Not when I've had a fairly comfortable life here in the US and have never faced the situation that they faced.

[tabatha]

30. + 1000

[EFerrari]

33. But we went into Iraq to defend the Iraqi people from rape rooms

and torture, too, remember?

[tabatha]

38. Please do not conflate the two.

Libyans will be insulted. Especially those who have lost family and friends fighting for freedom.

In all if your commentary, I see nothing that takes into account what Libyans want and think.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. The Libyans is like saying The Americans.

Which ones? Are you saying that Gaddhafi has no Libyan supporters? It's a civil war. One in which we have no business. Just as we had no business in Vietnam, El Salvador, Congo, Guatemala, Laos, or any of the countries we "helped" against the bogeyman of the day.

"Fighting for Freedom" is the same words used to describe the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan that we "helped" and the Contras in Nicaragua. Not to mention the generals in Chile and Argentina.

[sabrina 1]

48. You must not have been following Libya from the beginning.

The Libyan rebels 'conflated the two'. From the beginning they stated on Twitter and in interviews that they 'do not want Libya to become another Iraq'. They also stated they did NOT want foreign troops or intervention in their affairs.

It is BECAUSE I remember their pleas against turning their country into another Iraq, that I will not support what is increasingly becoming their-many-times-stated worst nightmare.

I would not wish that on them. Right now in Iraq, after eight years of us 'rescuing the Iraqi people from torture chambers' (THEIRs not OURs) they are not even allowed to demonatrate against the government withoug being shot and killed and taken to the NEW torture chambers.

Sorry, but I could not support that, didn't the first time, and I respect the wishes of the Libyan people not to have 'our country turned into another Iraq'.

[Davis_X_Machina]

49. "They also stated they did NOT want foreign troops...

...or intervention in their affairs."

They did, did they?

[sabrina 1]

51. Yes, they did. Over and over again.

I have followed this from way back, and many of the original rebels are no longer participating stating that they have been 'infiltrated' by 'outsiders' whom they do not trust.

Clearly, if you are unaware of their demands of NO FOREIGN TROOPs in their country, you are new to the situation.

You are supporting the takeover of another oil producing country. The goal is to install a 'friendly' government, as we have done in Iraq, again, and stop Qaddafi from cutting the profits of the Multi Nationals which is what he intended to do.

If you think the same NATO forces that are slaughtering people in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and Yemen, care one bit about the people of Libya and are not just using them right now, then you must believe in the tooth fairy.

[Davis_X_Machina]

52. What do I know? Only what the NTC tells me...

http://ntclibya.org/english/statement-resolution-1973/

The Transitional Interim National Council welcomes the UN Security Council resolution 1973 (2011), as well as the outcome of the Paris meeting held on 19th of March, 2011, and commends all efforts exerted to expedite the implementation of the resolution, especially with regards to the imposition of the No-Fly Zone and the aerial attacks against Qadhafi’s brigades, which were approaching to enter the city of Benghazi and bombarding the city from all directions. The coalition aerial attacks prevented a genocide in the city, forced Qadhafi’s brigades to retreat away from the city, and brought back tranquility in the hearts of innocent civilians who had initiated to move away from the city.

While the Council is surprised by the statements of some countries and figures who have criticized the use of force against Qadhafi’s brigades which were bombarding the densely populated cities before the eyes of the international community, whereas Qadhfi is accusing the resolution with illegitimacy, confirming his non-compliance with it, threating to open armoires and transforming the Mediterranean region into a battle field, The Council affirms that the use of force by the international coalition was in accordance with paragraph 4 of the Security Council resolution referred to above which calls on all States to use all necessary measures to protect civilians. In this regard, the Council calls upon all States to bear their responsibilities towards the massacres perpetrated against the civilians, especially in the city of Misurata for bombarding all vital sites in the city as well as the intense bombardment of the city of Azzintan after cutting off all means of communications, water and electricity and preventing all humanitarians assistance for these two cities.

[sabrina 1]

53. Yes, that was the claim, which many of us believed initially, that

'there would have been a massacre' but has now been seriously questioned even by some of the original rebels themselves.

The NTC is now run by outsiders. Very convenient for the Western Powers to have 'friendly to invervention' 'rebels' in charge, rather than the original rebels who did not want foreign intervention.

Sorry, but I fell for it in the beginning also. But some things began to not make sense, until we discovered who had 'taken over' and then the situation took on a whole different aspect.

[EFerrari]

65. I haven't conflated anything.

And you can hardly claim to speak for "Libyans".

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[tabatha]

20. dupe

please delete

[tabatha]

21. The rebels are thankful for the intervention.

They asked for it.

You are not talking on behalf of the rebels, and never will.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. But..but..we're not taking sides in a civil war..just like we didn't in Vietnam.

[MedleyMisty]

14. If you have a problem with taking sides

with people who want freedom and democracy and who have a pretty awesome vision of a free democratic Libya against one of the most evil dictators in the world, who by the way has left the Libyans without decent health care or education or infrastructure while funding terrorists groups around the world, then...well, you have a problem.

[EFerrari]

19. If you back a fake popular council fronting for multinational interests in rebel drag,

you have a problem.

Meanwhile, our buddies in Bahrain are beating and torturing doctors.

[tabatha]

27. Please provide evidence that they are fake.

Or is that just an opinion?

[EFerrari]

32. Have you gone to their website to read the CVs, tabatha?

I know if I were a Libyan rebel, the guys I'd want in charge would be from the financial sector and trained in the US.

[tabatha]

37. I know who they are.

They have explicitly stated that they will NOT run for elected office if there are ever free elections. They are transitional only. Go to their web site.

Or did you miss that?

[Davis_X_Machina]

50. We need better rebels.

It's a shame Ché is dead. We used to have real rebels in those days.

[EFerrari]

63. They also claim to be representing the people of Libya.

Do you believe that, too?

This is a pretty high stakes game with the lives of others to trust the good word of these miraculously available Western trained leaders on their word. I guess we didn't learn sh!t from Chalabi and his fake Iraqi National Congress.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. I have a problem with the United States jumping into another qauagmire.

The justifications for going to war on the the flavor of the month bogeyman who poses no threat to the United States has been used a bit too often. See Patrice Lumumba, Fidel Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Mohammad Mossadegh, Salvador Allende, Saddam Hussein, and other targets of our assassins, bombs, and subversion.

[tabatha]

26. R2P was only recently passed.

[EFerrari]

Yes, another legalization of corruption. n/t

[tabatha]

35. You seem to be incapable of putting yourself

in other people's shoes, where the Libyans expressly asked for protection under R2P.

[EFerrari]

60. It doesn't follow that I have no empathy because I disagree with you. n/t

[tabatha]

24. So you think

Vietnam, Bosnia, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan are all equivalent? More logic salad.

[EFerrari]

29. Which means, you don't see the similarity. It doesn't mean there isn't one. n/t

[tabatha]

34. Libya is VERY different on many levels.

There has never been another country that has asked for a no-fly zone.
There has never been another country that has been grateful for a no-fly zone.
There has never been another intervention where NATO is expressly forbidding no boots on the ground, where that means an occupation.
I do not believe that another country has been protected under R2P before.
There has never been another country that has been brutalized for 42 years by one person and his family.

I could go on.......

[EFerrari]

36. How did Libya "ask" for a no fly zone?

Who is "grateful" for the no fly zone?

There are boots on the ground and there have been since the early days of this "rebellion". Brits and US both had intel and Brits had Special Forces in, iirc.

You could go on but none of those statements hold up under scrutiny.

I get it. You believe that NATO is "saving" Libya. Good luck with that.

[tabatha]

42. Do you never read the news, see photos, watch videos?

I guess not.

[Hannah Bell]

47. that's supposed to prove something?

[inna]

55. and your point is?....

that some people are more susceptible to corporate propaganda than others? :shrug:


look, we all get the same messages/data/information to process (from the media, etc) - it's how we process that information and whether or not we're capable of critical thinking that makes our interpretation of the events so different.

[Distant Observer]

59. An interesting pile of MISREPRESENTATIONS. Pls an OPPOSITING FACTION's whims does not define LIBYA

[inna]

54. shock and awe, baby; shock and awe.

:nuke:


what else is new?

Photo: Rubble at the site of the main government building in Tripoli following an airstrike by foreign forces.




Note: the above image is from over a month ago.
http://www.answercoalition.org/national/news/bombing-libya-to-save-libya-emergency-demos.html




--- oh, wow! - just as i was typing this, i heard a live report from Tripoli; the journalist was obviously scared for his life and said he'd never witnessed anything like that; apparently, Tripoli is under attack right now (??)

[Distant Observer]

57. That this WAR is a SCAM is evident from the constant and perverse misrpresentations of objectives

Weeks ago it was claimed that all stationary anti-aircraft sites weapons were destroyed.

Then they insisted that they needed to protect civilians even as the "civilian" were massively armed and
the one attacking from city to city.

Then the justified continued bombing on the basis of destroying "command and control" (which could mean anything and anyone connected with the Government of Libya).

Now they can keep bombing forever on the basis of destroying the "supply lines" (which could mean any facility, infrastructure, moving vehicle connected with the Government of Libya).

But, keep in mind, THEY ARE ONLY PROTECTING CIVILIANS in danger of being massacred!

OF COURSE IT IS ALL AN ELEGANT LIE, AIDED AND ABETTED BY ALL THE PROPAGANDA ARMS OF THE WEST AND THE ARAB PRINCES WHOSE MAIN WORRY IS THEIR OIL EMPIRES AND KEEPING ALL EYES AWAY FROM WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO CONTROL
(SILENCE, DISAPPEAR, KILL) THEIR OWN PEOPLES AND MAINTAIN POWER.

[WatsonT]

58. Can we call it a war now?

Or is it still a kinetic action?

[Distant Observer]

64. I think what we call it has nothing to do with FACTS, but depends on the info-ops strategy

of some people in the basement.