The capitalist system is broken and needs repair...

[kentuck]

Every few years, the capitalist system gets sick and needs some medicine. The greed within its body is a virus that cannot be destroyed. It finds new ways to replicate itself and to infect all those with whom it comes into contact with.

The present system is one of the worst in our history. If it is not repaired, we will all suffer greatly. It cannot heal itself. Much like the Great Depression, it will be too late if we do not fix it soon.

The capitalists look to destroy their competitors. They look for ways to monopolize their products or services. They buy other companies that compete with them. They buy up companies that are in the line of production and manufacturing, so they can control all avenues of production and pricing. This is what the present system is doing. It is a disease that affects us all.

If you eat, they will buy up the farmland. If you plow the farm, they will buy the makers of your tractors. If your tractors need gasoline, they will control the oil that you use. They have their ways to control prices and profits and they have mastered it.

Either we are a nation of and for the people or we are a nation of and for the corporations. It is sad to report that the corporations control our elected officials to the point of gridlock. We can vote, we can march, we can do all the things we are supposed to do in a democracy but, nothing will be better until we control this virus of greed that surrounds each and every one of us.

[LiberalEsto]

1. And they're controlling the seeds we plant

and limiting the variety of seeds, AND messing with the DNA of the seeds.

[white_wolf]

2. The capitlaist system doesn't need to be repaired. It needs to be destroyed.

It will ALWAYS end up like this. It is the nature of the system. You can no more regulate capitalism, than tame a tiger.

[Modern_Matthew]

4. +1 You beat me to it. nt

[kentuck]

5. Ideally, you are correct.

But until that can be accomplished, it needs to be put in a cage, chained, and kept in isolation.

[white_wolf]

20. Agreed, but that can't be our long term solution.

[kentuck]

22. But is it realistic?

Is it even realistic to try and put controls and regulations on them?

[white_wolf]

27. That is the big question.

We have 3 choices. 1. lazzie-fare which is what the Right wants. 2. We can regulate capitalism and try to control it for now. 3. We can abolish it and start building socialism. The problem is, that requires massive reforms. Venezuela is an interesting cast to watch for an example of socialism being phased in democratically. We don't have that kind of support from either the legislate or executive branch here, the only way to build socialism I can see currently is if the system get so bad that the working class revolts against it. Revolution might be the only path to socialism, but it is never an easy or safe path and the one who walks it must be very careful. Stalins, Hamiltons,Robespierres are always waiting and they are a danger to both democracy and socialism.

[kentuck]

28. Revolution does not have to be grand.

It can start as something very small. It has to shock the status quo. It could be a single incident that would be reported nationwide. We should not think of revolution in grand terms of millions marching in the street. It doesn't have to be that way.

[socialist_n_TN]

29. Well that's the way revolutions usually start. BUT

that's ONLY a start. After the first incident, THEN you need to be prepared to take advantage of the outrage of the masses. That's where the vanguard party comes in. Ideally anyway.

I have my personal problems with the idea of a vanguard party (see Trotsky's criticism circa 1907 or so), but I don't see any way around the problem. Without a vanguard party working FOR the working class/poor during a revolutionary situation, you run the risk of the revolution losing momentum due to scattered energies and goals OR even worse, you run the risk of a petit beourgeoise rulership instituting full scale fascism, a la Hitler in Germany.

Unfortunately, I don't see a vanguard party for the working class/poor in our current political climate.

[TBF]

33. Not always ...

I'm not advocating this, but it's where we'll end up if we continue to do nothing:

[socialist_n_TN]

36. True. Or military dictatorship and Empire.........

However, we've gone down the empire route for a while now and it hasn't worked. More importantly, more and more average people are REALIZING it hasn't worked. Plus, I'm not sure there's a "strongman" type of military leader on the horizen either. At least not one that could unite the ENTIRE military. An attempted military takeover in today's climate would probably result in a MILITARY civil war.

Not that that's not a real possibility of course.

[defendandprotect]

48. Certainly there was no MIC to be concerned about -- Gaddafi is probably better armed than

any and all of the Revolutionary armies!

It's something Americans fail to see -- the threat of the MIC and TORTURE to

Americans!!

[socialist_n_TN]

56. I agree. I even overlooked it myself.......

in my original post in this thread as TBF pointed out.

[defendandprotect]

63. True -- and if you reflect upon French Revolution --

they succeeded somehow for reasons which we should probably try to understand better.

But the elites also have long memories and never give up -- look at Haiti!!

Pretty much punished ever since for delivering themselves from slavery!!

Fortunately, many DU'ers will come along will info about all of these things when we

most need it -- !!

:)

[defendandprotect]

35. Obama betrayal of New Deal is waking up Americans --

Notice that we have NO elected Democrats who are talking revolution --

NO elected Democrats who are moving away from this party now controlled by Koch Bros!!

NO elected Democrats who are giving leadership to taking it back from DLC/Koch Bros!!



The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

If you knew about this, why didn't you tell us?

If you didn't know -- pass it along -- !!

:)

[defendandprotect]

41. One thing to think about is how battles for human rights have OVERTURNED economic controls that

have benefitted oppressors --

For instance, AAs delivered themselves from Segregation, Inc. -- all on their own.

We have to understand however that we had a Supreme Court at that time and Democratic

Congress which did not OPPOSE the overturning of segregation and discrimination based

on "color" of anyone's skin. It was the SECOND overturning of slavery -- and I would

look to AAs for advice on revolution!!

Certainly capitalism was used against itself in that battle -- something to be noted.


Now --

Homosexuals have just waged a successful battle for their human rights -- which would

make them the second best source for advice on revolution. Like the AA they used

their intelligence and wisdom to REVERSE right wing propaganda which did such harm to

them over thousands of years -- which created intolerance and hatred for homosexuals

and encourged violence against them -- much as right wing propaganda created intolerance

and hatred for AAs --- and, I might add, women.


In that battle, Homosexuals also used capitalism as a tool against itself -

However, we also have to recognize that the Courts and Congress had been turned from

embracing democratic ideals to being influenced by religious fanatacism.


In all of these human rights battles, of course, we see how exploitation profits the few.

Exploitation, that is, based on myths of "inferiority."


As well, in both battles religious ideals were used against the oppressors REVERSING

hateful teachings by Christianity.


Note that as these battles were won SOME women have been released from multiple layers

of oppression against them --

[conspirator]

6. +1 n/t

[hifiguy]

8. What you said, wolf!

What you said.....

[The2ndWheel]

9. "The capitalists look to destroy their competitors."

As do the competitors of capitalism I guess.

[kentuck]

10. Who are the "competitors of capitalism"?

??

[The2ndWheel]

13. white_wolf seems to be one

I was just commenting on how you said capitalists want to destroy their competitors, then it was mentioned how capitalism needs to be destroyed. Either white_wolf is then a capitalist, or every system is competing against the other, and only one will survive.

[kentuck]

14. Good luck to white_wolf!

I sort of assumed competitors stood on equal ground. Perhaps you confuse critics with competitors??

[The2ndWheel]

17. I just noticed that destroy was used both ways

You said capitalists look to destroy. white_wolf said capitalism needs to be destroyed.

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC07/Schmoklr.htm

"The new human freedom made striving for expansion and power possible. Such freedom, when multiplied, creates anarchy. The anarchy among civilized societies meant that the play of power in the system was uncontrollable. In an anarchic situation like that, no one can choose that the struggle for power shall cease. But there is one more element in the picture: no one is free to choose peace, but anyone can impose upon all the necessity for power. This is the lesson of the parable of the tribes.

Imagine a group of tribes living within reach of one another. If all choose the way of peace, then all may live in peace. But what if all but one choose peace, and that one is ambitious for expansion and conquest? What can happen to the others when confronted by an ambitious and potent neighbor? Perhaps one tribe is attacked and defeated, its people destroyed and its lands seized for the use of the victors. Another is defeated, but this one is not exterminated; rather, it is subjugated and transformed to serve the conqueror. A third seeking to avoid such disaster flees from the area into some inaccessible (and undesirable) place, and its former homeland becomes part of the growing empire of the power-seeking tribe. Let us suppose that others observing these developments decide to defend themselves in order to preserve themselves and their autonomy. But the irony is that successful defense against a power-maximizing aggressor requires a society to become more like the society that threatens it. Power can be stopped only by power, and if the threatening society has discovered ways to magnify its power through innovations in organization or technology (or whatever), the defensive society will have to transform itself into something more like its foe in order to resist the external force.

I have just outlined four possible outcomes for the threatened tribes: destruction, absorption and transformation, withdrawal, and imitation. In every one of these outcomes the ways of power are spread throughout the system. This is the parable of the tribes."

[Shandris]

42. There are not 4 discrete answers to the parable.

There are 5.

The fifth is to be the one that the other 4 respond to.

This is why even a peaceful nation needs a military presence, and it needs to be part of the founding core of the nation. So that it neither creates a military change in the populace when one is requires (transformation), nor is powerless to prevent encroachment to the detriment of its peoples (destruction, absorption, withdrawal).

[defendandprotect]

51. Other capitalists -- and anyone trying for saner, better products -- ie.., green energy!!

One of the my ths of capitalism is that it is about competition -- !!

It isn't --- "Capitalism is about killing the competition" -- !!!


And -- as they also say -- "No honesty among thieves" -- the capitalists are after

monopoly -- they kill one another off as you just saw in the last financial coup!!

[socialist_n_TN]

43. Well capitalists not only want to destroy their capitalistic

competitors, they also MUST destroy any other more egalitarian economic system too. In fact, to the capitalist it's more important to destroy the competing SYSTEMS than to destroy competing capitalists.

You'll notice that this type of Darwinian capitalism began to come into play only when the only OTHER competing system was destroyed. After they got rid of socialism (even the deformed version set up by Stalin in the USSR), they were free to concentrate on their CAPITALIST competitors.

Right now though, what they're concentrating on is capitalist accumulation. They're concentrating ALL of the wealth into fewer and fewer hands. Once it gets concentrated enough, then you'll actually see hot wars BETWEEN companies and conglomerates world wide. That is if they don't destroy us all before we get to that point. IMO, it's a distinct possibility.

[The2ndWheel]

57. Right, and the US Government only started to expand

beyond its shores after it conquered the rest of the west and had nowhere else to go.

The end of one war sets up the parameters under which the next war will take place.

[defendandprotect]

65. The concept is monopoly control -- capitalism provides for one owner -- !!

That was, in fact, Howard Huges goal -- to own the USA!!

But I would imagine that the elites/fascists well understand their mistake in

Nazi Germany/Italy -- there was someone left standing to save Europe from fascism --

the US!

They're not going to make that mistake again -- they will take us all down together --

that's what the downward spirals all over the world are about -- European/Canada --

everywhere. Trade agreements -- "Harvesting slave labor all over the world."

[socialist_n_TN]

46. If I may wolf....................

Taming the tiger is a dangerous business. It's not easy to do and you're always in danger of being eaten.

[defendandprotect]

52. Tell that to AAs who overturned Segregation, Inc. -- to Homosexuals who are winning human rights ...

and to Women who continue to battle peacefully for their human rights --

as they are among the most oppressed and abused by patriarchy --

Only NATURE is more abused by patriarchy!!


The real dangers lie in losing our planet -- Global Warming is real and upon us!

How many more Fukushima's will we have if Obama goes thru with the insanity of

a new generation of nuclear reactors!!??

[socialist_n_TN]

60. Oh, I think that AAs, women, and in reality anyone..........

who's fought for basic human rights would agree with me about it being dangerous. And you always have to be vigilant too. Women's rights, AA rights, ALL rights are always in danger of being taken away by the counterrevolutionaries.

It's not easy to GAIN those rights and without vigilance they CAN be taken away.

[defendandprotect]

62. Dangerous, of course -- but are you saying it's not worthwhile to fight for human rights????

Yes -- vigilance -- but not so much fear that it freezes us in place --

In fact, that's the very power that TORTURE has over societies -- and why

TORTURE is introduced to control societies --

Something that I don't think enough Americans have been thinking about re our

situation in America -- and how far we have permitted fascism and fascist thinking

to take control of our nation.

[socialist_n_TN]

66. No, no, no! Of course, you fight for human rights........

What I was alluding to in my original post in this subthread, it that regulating capitalism is like riding a tiger. It's hard to do and you're always in danger of being eaten.

Fighting for human rights is simular, in that it's dangerous and you must be ever vigilant or you will LOSE the rights you fought for.

The difference is that it's WORTH it to ride the tiger for individual human rights (that includes ECONOMIC rights BTW). I'm don't think that riding the tiger it's worth it for regulating capitalism though. It would be better just to scrap it and start over. IOW, in some cases it's worth it to take the dangerous course because your ethics won't let you do anything else. Trying to regulate a system that fights regulation at every turn is not worth it, ESPECIALLY when you have a competing system that hasn't been tried.

[defendandprotect]

67. Capitalism is an intrinsic part of ALL of these human oppressions ... !!!

That's what capitalism is built on --

exploitation of nature, natural resources, animal-life -- and even exploitation

of humans based on myths of "inferiority."

That's what DISCRIMINATION is all about -- profit!!


Please see my other posts on this thread which discuss this -- or go to my Journal

where I have added these posts --

:)

[socialist_n_TN]

71. Well sure it is. I would even say that capitalism is

the BASIS for the exploitation because capitalism is ABOUT exploitation. I don't think it's worth regulating myself. I think it needs to be overturned.

[defendandprotect]

90. Well, Bibical slavery and other such concepts of exploitation existed long before capitalism...

That's what "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" are also all about --

in that way, organized patriarchal religion provided the licenses to exploit nature,

natural resources and animal-life --

That's something which comes out of patriarchy and men who wake up every morning

thinking about how they can gain control over others --


But keep in mind you have to make a class of people LESS human in order to

exploit them -- thus various myths were developed -- myths of "inferiority"

of women, AAs, Asians -- whatever!!

[defendandprotect]

50. Exactly ... !! Sign in beauty parlor the other day -- We take ONLY cash and personal checks!!

My neighborhood vegetable store loves me because I only ever use cash

or personal checks!!

Other times I get stuck I have to use a credit or ATM card -- but try not to !!

When the woman closed he shop and walked out, I pointed to the sign and said to

her "Down with the banksters!" --

and we both laughed.

[alcibiades_mystery]

59. WIN

:thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

61. What we also have to recognize about capitalism is that it doesn't stand alone ....

Patriarchy -- and its underpinning =

Organized patriarchal religions -- and its economic invention =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity


In another post, I am talking about the various battles for Human Rights by AAs and

Homosexuals -- and, of course now as well by Hispanics -- battles of intelligence

and wisdom which attack and weaken notions of patriarchy/authority -- religious hatred --

and undermine the licenses for exploittion and profit of the few --

i.e., "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature."


But, pretty much in our schools we were taught that capitalism and democracy are synonymous.

Rather they are opposites!!

[readmoreoften]

76. +1 The capitalist system is working exactly as it is supposed to.

[txlibdem]

89. There could only be one system that would be worse than what we have today

And that would be Hitler's brand of fascism, which it looks like we are heading toward anyway.

Gather your compatriots, gather your strength, there are only a few years left of the current charade.

+1 to you and all those who follow you!

[defendandprotect]

91. Agree -- and watching TORTURE re-introduced by our government is another signal ....

it is the primary way that fascists control the population --

[txlibdem]

94. I wouldn't worry so much about torture

It's the FEMA death camps that will cull the low life population, clearing out the "radicals" and those who might have the ability to think critically.

Kill enough people and the rest will fall in line. And you better believe that the wealthy wouldn't bat an eye at killing millions of us in a single swipe of the pen.

[defendandprotect]

100. Right wing follows old tried and true patterns -- simply improving on them --

They say Hitler followed the pattern of Vatican Jewish ghettoes --

and US government "reservations" for Native Americans --

Isolation -- and then total destruction.

[GillesDeleuze]

3. Capitalism "functions" in fits and starts.

the apparatus of capture ignores segmentation.

[defendandprotect]

53. What you're saying is ... "You can't steal from everyone every day of the week" ... ???

[GillesDeleuze]

70. marx used the term zig-zag.

i quite like that. sometimes it zigs, sometimes it zags, but its all for the benefit of those who capture wealth rather those who labor to produce it.

[defendandprotect]

92. Did Marx call capitalism fascism?

[GillesDeleuze]

93. marx was pre-fascist.. the modern death state had not been created

but marxists/anarchists at the birth of fascism actively fought fascism, see Guernica.

[defendandprotect]

99. Fascism traces back to Northern Italy much earlier than Marx ....

The Vatican created capitalism when Feudalism was no longer sufficient to run their

Papal States --



How Christianity Created Capitalism

http://www.aei.org/article/11105


Consider Bibical "values" of oppression which are certainly fascist --

Slavery -- oppression of females --


There's a lot more on this subject -- but it's what I had handy!

:)

[NYC_SKP]

7. What system is there that is immune to the greed virus?

That greed thing is, sadly, a pretty stubborn virus.

Under any number of other industrialized systems, greed is free to thrive.

I cannot imagine any modern technological society that would not offer opportunities for the abuse of power.

I'm not saying there isn't a huge problem, just saying that I'm unconvinced that ours is impossible and unworkable.

Any suggestions?

:shrug:

[socialist_n_TN]

37. Decentralized power which would result in

more "average" people elected to office. Not that that would get rid of the "greed virus", but at least it would provide a check to it. Also term limits for elected legislative officials.

Basically, you're somehow going to have to get money out of elective politics. Probably by public financing of elections and term limits. Easier recalls too or at least, recalls available EVERYWHERE, locally and nationally.

[defendandprotect]

55. Actually, it's about violence -- cause without violence, greed cannot have its way ...

There's always going to be some guy who wants what you have --

and if you don't give it to him, he'll rape your daughter -- and

if you still don't give in -- kill your son!

We've never come to terms with how to deal with this violence of the few

among us -- that's the bottom line.


Meanwhile, concepts of ownership of land is a force for the elite -- not

the commoner. There was no concept of land ownership here when Native

American thrived -- 40 million of them!

What were they being denied in concepts of commonwealth?

[TheKentuckian]

64. There is a significant difference between immunity from greed and being predicated on avarice

I don't think it is reasonable to conflate the two at all.

If we cannot eliminate a detriment then containment or dilution are our next bets. Certainly, we don't want to spit into the wind here and embrace the problem.

[socialist_n_TN]

74. Yes there is also a significant difference between

SYSTEMIC greed (capitalism) and individual greed. Individual greed CAN be contained or diluted. Systemic greed can't. It's got to be destroyed WITH the system.

[TheKentuckian]

77. Exactly right. Playing into greed systemically is foolhardy, at best.

Probably suicidal.

[socialist_n_TN]

78. DEFINITELY suicidal.........

That's why I keep saying that the capitalists can't even save themselves, much less the rest of us. The system would trade the end of the world tomorrow for profit today.

[RegieRocker]

88. You have that right!

[txlibdem]

101. Monetary systems create greed.

Do away with money and provide all needs for each citizen for free. If no person gets more than another then there is no basis for greed. And if a person displays pathological greed they can be treated by a psychiatrist or psychologist until they are sane again.

[The2ndWheel]

11. Which mass cultural, social, political, or economic system doesn't

look to monopolize their products and services, and mold the world to fit its image?

[kentuck]

12. Are you talking about dictatorships or...?

or other advanced social democracies of the world? I don't think your argument holds water.

[The2ndWheel]

15. I don't know of too many places on the world where

"If you eat, they will buy up the farmland. If you plow the farm, they will buy the makers of your tractors. If your tractors need gasoline, they will control the oil that you use."

where this is no longer the case, whether it's corporations or governments doing the buying or controlling.

[kentuck]

16. So, can we assume that you believe captialism is the greatest system..?

..on earth, and does not need repair?

[The2ndWheel]

18. I'm not a fan of any mass system

Any system so massive can't help but decrease any other way of living.

[kentuck]

19. So you are not a fan...

Do you think it is hurting people? Do you think it needs to be fixed in anyway? Or do you believe the marketplace will fix it if left to their own devices. Do you see any problems with the capitalist system and how would you fix it?

[The2ndWheel]

49. Fixing it makes the problem bigger

Fixing it adds legitimacy to it. What else can you do though? Nothing.

[socialist_n_TN]

54. OK, I think here I can partially agree..........

I'm a socialist because I believe in worker control of the means of production. Now, that can be owner operators (self employment, artisans= individual socialism), local worker owned co-ops (petit socialism or anarcho-syndicalism) or it can be government (all of the people= socialism) owned structures.

I favor government owned for large businesses dealing with general welfare issues. That would be defense, food, shelter, clothing, education, health care, etc. IOW, nobody's hungry or homeless and everybody benefits from getting a fair start in life. Also for ANY interstate business. A company that tries to go nationwide or world wide is nationalized. Yes, you can pay licensing fees for proprietary business items and you can even work for the company as an officer, but it's under control of the government board that regulates and controls that industry FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE. Or else you can sell it to your workers as a profit sharing enterprise in exchange for less government regulation and oversight.

After that, for mid level intrastate businesses, I favor the anarcho-syndicalist model, EXCEPT THERE'S A GOVERNMENT ARBITRATOR. That keeps everything fair and even and keeps control AWAY from monied interests.

Ideally in my socialist utopia, everybody works for themselves, gets a living wage, pays their taxes and benefits from and for the general welfare. Other than these reasonable controls, if you want to work for yourself, there would be VERY little government onus on you.

[BOG PERSON]

21. "the present system is one of the worst in our history"?

so... you think the capitalist system is one of the worst in our history??

[kentuck]

23. Our present capitalist system...

is one of the worst we have had in our history, in my opinion. We have not yet seen the results of their destruction.

[BOG PERSON]

24. our present capitalist system?

how many capitalist systems have there been? are these, like, discrete/discontinuous systems?

[kentuck]

25. The present capitalist system with low taxes or no taxes..

is different from the capitalist system under say, Eisenhower, when the top tax rate was 90%. Yes, it changes continuously, for the worse, if there are no regulations or controls.

[upi402]

30. ^+1,000

k/r

[KharmaTrain]

26. It's Not Fixed...It's Modified...

This recession/depression won't begin to turn around until this country finds a way to add jobs just not hold onto them. It's when the corporations realize they screwed over their best customers when they no longer are buying the cars, the electronic toys, the cable teevee and earnings finally take a hit. The sad problem is that in a "global economy" those corporations have insulated themselves from one country or economy going south. For example, Ford's rise in the past two years wasn't based on increased sales in the US as it was in China and India. Thus even while our economy has stagnated, profits have been made elsewhere.

The bottom will be hit when those markets also suffer downturns and there's no place to turn...and it will happen. In the meantime the U.S. economy can hang...as those with the money just shuffle the deck. That's always what the markets do. In the corporates eye, the US consumer is not viewed as a producer...only one who buys. It still hasn't hit home that all the outsourcing and consolidation means there are less people every day with the disposible income than there used to be. Add to this the escalating energy and food prices (like a tax hike that will ripple across the economy for months to come) and the corporates better hope things stay good abroad. The rest of us can go hang...

[socialist_n_TN]

34. This is the very reason that we need an.........

International worker's party.

The old Bolsheviks pre Stalin started down this road, but it was blocked by the deformities instituted by Stalin RE: "socialism in one country" and the bureaucracy. The only way socialism in one country could possibly work even for a relatively short space of time is in a modernized, already built capitalist system that's collapsing under it's own weight. Sound familiar?

Ideally, socialism comes AFTER worker's revolutions in several developed AND undeveloped nations simutaneously or nearly so. That way they can help each other out. Oil from Venezuala, raw materials from African socialist states traded for consumer goods from the more developed European and American socialist countries.

With the international nature of capitalism today, there's never been a more apt time for "Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose, but your chains!"

[BOG PERSON]

45. an international party is a bad idea

internationalism is fine, internationalist cooperation and rhetoric is fine, but an international party is doomed to split because no two countries have the same objective conditions.

[socialist_n_TN]

73. I disagree. The ONLY way to combat international

capitalism is with an international ANTIcapitalist party. Even with differing conditions in different countries, we MUST agree on the need for a united anticapitalist front.

We have a model, albeit a flawed model, for attempting to bring socialism to undeveloped countries and a model for bringing socialistic TYPES of programs to more developed societies. We need an international party to bring about the BEST parts of these models together to fight the oppressors. The INTERNATIONAL oppressors.

Maybe we need a FIFTH International.

[BOG PERSON]

80. i think a fifth international already came and went

it was lyndon larouche's idea... it didn't last very long.

what you guys need is a SIXTH international.

[socialist_n_TN]

81. I've never heard of a fifth international........

The last one I know of was Trotsky's Fourth International. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that we need an INTERNATIONAL anticapitalist response to international capitalism.

[socialist_n_TN]

86. I did a little checking and

apparently there have been CALLS for a Fifth International for a few decades now (since Trotsky's Fourth lost momentum with his assassination and the splits in his movement), but I don't think that anybody has put one together yet. Chevez talked about it some himself in the Aughts, but I don't think anything has come about yet.

[TBF]

31. Capitalism is not "broken" - it is functioning exactly as it always has,

and the owners are more profitable than ever.

The question is how much longer we're going to put up with a system that is inherently unfair and oppressive.

[socialist_n_TN]

38. Something that the apologists never seem to admit

nm

[TBF]

47. Denial - it's not just a river ... nt

[defendandprotect]

32. Including control over seeds and water -- this is fascist control from cradle to grave ... !!!

[StarburstClock]

39. Capitalism is only as good as its regulation

Without regulation it easily morphs into pure corruption, which it has now. This has been known for centuries, the only reason it isn't a basic fact today is the massive propaganda network that's been built up in government and corporations that promote corruption.

[RegieRocker]

40. People are broken.

If you love your country remember it is only land water and vegetation. People make a country. Same holds true for capitalism.

[socialist_n_TN]

44. Not so correct..........

In capitalism, the system itself corrupts people. If you're a gung ho capitalist AND a "good" person, who will you answer to, your conscience or making money? The gung ho capitalist eventually is seduced by greed and becomes a "not so good" person. Greed is not one of the Seven Deadlies" for nothing. It's AS seductive (or more so) as all the others.

You can try to control it, but it will always fight to become what we have now BECAUSE THAT IS THE NATURE OF THE SYSTEM. No controls and no regulations other than "the invisible hand of the market".

[RegieRocker]

79. Soooo that makes the person broken. You said it yourself.

Temptations abound it's a personal choice. Broken to begin with once the decision is made.

[socialist_n_TN]

82. As explained above, it's the difference between SYSTEMIC

greed (capitalism) and individual greed. The individual kind is easier to dilute and contain than the systemic sort.

[RegieRocker]

84. Agreed the source is the first thing to attack however

to me that source is man himself. Without man there would be no capitalism.

[socialist_n_TN]

85. The source is the system......

it PROMOTES greed. In fact, greed is it's sole raison d'etre.

[RegieRocker]

87. No no no. The source is man. Greed is one of the seven

deadly sins and was written about long long before capitalism was ever thought of. Those are the facts. It is man himself that is the root of the problem.

[alcibiades_mystery]

58. No,it is working precisely as it's supposed to

Your mistake is in thinking that it's supposed to be good.

[Odin2005]

68. Capitalism is working exactly how the Capitalist Ruling Class want it.

The notion that there is a fair, just Capitalism is a theoretical creation of the apologists for the Ruling Class that has no basis in reality.

[leftstreet]

72. +1

[socialist_n_TN]

75. ....a fair, just Capitalism is a theoretical creation

of the apologists for the ruling class......." Now THAT'S a SERIOUSLY true statement.

All this crap we've been seeing on here lately about "democratic capitalism" and other equally humanistic versions of capitalism are OBVIOUSLY the capitalist's way of defusing working class outrage at what's going on while they engage in the capitalist accumulation of wealth FROM the working class. What little bit of wealth they ALLOWED us to acquire in common when they were battling the "Reds", they are now in the process of taking away. So they come up with this "Santa Claus" of "democratic capitalism" to distract us FROM the accumulation. They want us to fight for "democratic capitalism" while they steal BACK what they allowed us to gain in the past.

For this anticapitalist, it won't work. Eyes on the prize, a new (old) system of economic democracy.

[white_wolf]

69. One of the biggest problems is the fact that the capitalists are much smarter than their feudal

counterparts when it comes to disguising oppression. The old nobility was very open about and hid behind the Church, but that was doomed to fade away. The New nobility hides behind both the church and the state. Not only do they tell you, "This is God's will" but they also say "If you don't like it you can vote and change things" without telling you that they own the majority of both parties. They have given people the illusion of freedom and as Tubeman said "I freed thousands and I could have freed thousands more if only they knew they were slaves." You can't free those who do not know they are in chains.

[upi402]

95. Voting is a charade. The 2 party system is a charade

And people do NOT want to see the truth. Just look at the measly 2 rec's this post has - here on DU!

Blasphemy to criticize out current paradigm!
:yoiks:

kick

[white_wolf]

96. Yeah.

People don't want to face the fact that our system is a con.

[kentuck]

97. We don't want to think too long on that one...

We might not like what we conclude? Third parties are a curse to the monopoly.

[upi402]

98. Monopoly, not just a game anymore

It's is as serious as a heart attck.

Have you looked at this RT clip from Thom Hartmann yet?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x577459

[Fool Count]

83. It needs repair as a rabid dog needs a vet.

[kenny blankenship]

102. No budget for repairs. Sorry, they spent it all on Bentleys for their kids.

[MedleyMisty]

103. March harder

Walk like Egyptians.

A few hundred or a couple thousands with signs for a few hours isn't going to do much. We can learn from the Arabs. General strikes and MASSIVE protests and occupations that last for as long as it takes.