State Dept. wants to make it harder to get a passport

[RKP5637]

(OK, we are now officially insane in this country!)

"The U.S. Department of State is proposing a new Biographical Questionnaire for some passport applicants: The proposed new Form DS-5513 asks for all addresses since birth; lifetime employment history including employers’ and supervisors names, addresses, and telephone numbers; personal details of all siblings; mother’s address one year prior to your birth; any “religious ceremony” around the time of birth; and a variety of other information. According to the proposed form, “failure to provide the information requested may result in … the denial of your U.S. passport application.”"

"The State Department estimated that the average respondent would be able to compile all this information in just 45 minutes, which is obviously absurd given the amount of research that is likely to be required to even attempt to complete the form."

by Edward Hasbrouck on April 22, 2011
Dylan Ratigan Show
http://www.dylanratigan.com/2011/04/26/state-dept-wants-to-make-it-harder-to-get-a-passport/

[MichiganVote]

1. The start of the, 'We let you in, we don't let you out'

[nonperson]

8. Hotel California Syndrome

You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave

[damntexdem]

12. The Roach Motel model of international travel.

But it's "only for some" -- others must be "one of us." (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)

Glad I already have my passport, though I will have to renew it in a few years.

[sarcasmo]

45. +1

[Liberal_in_LA]

60. yep

[shanti]

2. key word: SOME applicants

most people have no need to get worked up into a tizzy.

[EmmettKelly]

3. There ya go. If you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing

to worry about.

[atreides1]

4. SOME applicants

Like those who may fit a certain profile? Maybe those who are Muslim or Hispanic, perhaps even Asian?

SOME applicants/the US doesn't torture/we are a nation of laws, and other applicable BS that has been part of the government double speak since Bush.

[NYC Liberal]

10. SOME applicants...like those who claim citizenship

but can't provide a birth certificate or other valid proof of citizenship.

[CreekDog]

50. the rule didn't say this only applies to those without documents

it could apply to those with documents as well.

[karynnj]

48. No those who do not have the documents to prove citizenship

who claim to be born here. It more likely would be white or black rural people who birth was never registered - who were not born in hospitals.

[LetTimmySmoke]

28. Only the SOME applicants that publicly say something controversial.

This happened to Naomi Wolf back during Bush when she spoke out against his administration. She was put on the terror watch list and was taken aside every time she tried to board a plane.

Given our government's propensity to go after people that corporate masters and war-pushers find inconvenient, I would say that there is need to get worked up into a tizzy.

[Tx4obama]

31. Wrong, nothing to get in a tizzy about. See comment #22 on this thread. n/t

[JackRiddler]

30. Expecting that all citizens should have equal rights is not a "tizzy."

And your attempt at divide and slumber is noted.

After all, only SOME citizens are denied due process, put on assassination lists, imprisoned for minor possession, searched summarily without cause, etc. etc.

[CreekDog]

49. and if you're one of them?

can you give an eyewitness account of your birth?

name your mother's prenatal doctors?

i can't.

[shanti]

59. no, but i do have

a birth certificate. that's pretty basic, don't you think?

[CreekDog]

62. and if they question it, you can come up with the other stuff, right?

:shrug:

[shanti]

63. i have a passport

they did not question it. we'll just have to see how this plays out.

[CreekDog]

65. that's you

what about other people --do they matter?

[Warpy]

5. All addresses since birth? Good luck with that one, Binky

because my parents moved at least every 6 months and I lived with grandparents, also. I can vaguely remember street names but not numbers in come cases. In others, I'm completely blank. Hey, I was in diapers at the time. What was your dad's business phone number when you were a year old? That's an equivalent question.

I ran into this on employment forms for government jobs and I just filled in "too many to count" before I was 18. After 18, I could generally figure them out.

This is what fascism does. It puts up insurmountable barriers for simple things like travel.

If I'm confronted with this the next time I renew, I'll simply make up addresses. You know no clerk is going to check anything out before 1980.

[onyourleft]

20. My dad's business phone number in 1945...

...dial 1-800-Europe. He was overseas in the Army until I was 18 months old.

[Drale]

21. How would they know you didn't put down all your addresses?

Unless you owned the house, even then I don't know if they could tell.

[HopeHoops]

6. Answers: Never employed: welfare baby. Mother unknown, various fathers.

Wow. That only took a few seconds to complete.

[damntexdem]

14. You forgot all former addresses: lived on the street.

;-)

[HopeHoops]

66. Actually, I was just too stoned to remember my addresses.

THAT should go over well on the application!

[Tx4obama]

7. That's just for the folks that can't provide an official certified birth certificate. n/t

[Ex Lurker]

9. That's not what this article says

"It seems likely that only some, not all, applicants will be required to fill out the new questionnaire, but no criteria have been made public for determining who will be subjected to these additional new written interrogatories. So if the passport examiner wants to deny your application, all they will have to do is give you the impossible new form to complete." http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/state-dept-wants-to-make-it-harder-to-get-a-passport/

[woodsprite]

11. I didn't get a federally compliant license this go around

because I needed to get so much crap together - certified birth certificate, social security card, marriage license, bank account info, 2 proofs of address (bills that came to both my husband and I). Soooooo, I'm non-compliant until 2016.

And if you were a divorced woman, you had to provide divorce papers and marriage certs for each time you were divorced.

[Tx4obama]

16. Well that is not what an article said a couple of weeks ago when the news first came out. n/t

[CreekDog]

52. try reading the actual Federal Rulemaking that is being talked about before smacking people around

on the basis that *they* don't understand it.

yeah, i'm mad. everyone you've corrected has been right and you've been wrong.

:rant:

[Tx4obama]

24. See comment #22 n/t

[CreekDog]

51. That's not what it says --why are you the most convinced about which you are the most uninformed?

:shrug:

[NYC Liberal]

13. It's "insane" to ask for proof of citizenship to get a passport?

Really? I'm pretty sure every country in the world does that.

http://papersplease.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/ds-5513-supportingstmnt.pdf

The Biographical Questionnaire for a U.S. Passport, form DS-5513, is used to supplement an application for a U.S. passport when the applicant submits citizenship or identity evidence that is insufficient or of questionable authenticity.

The form is only for those people who cannot provide a birth certificate or other valid proof of citizenship.

[Armstead]

15. It's insane to ask for every residence and that other stuff

[NYC Liberal]

26. If someone can't provide a birth certificate or valid

proof of citizenship, then what would you suggest be done? Just tell them, "Sorry, you can't prove you're a citizen. No passport for you"?

[CreekDog]

53. that's not what the rulemaking says

take a read of the actual rule.

if they don't like your official documents, you could be screwed.

[NYC Liberal]

57. If they don't like your official documents *now"

you could be screwed.

[Armstead]

67. I'm not sure i could p[roduce a valid birth certificate

[RKP5637]

23. I wonder what the flip side is of this? If someone can't produce all of this

information then it would appear by default they are not a citizen? So, then what does the state dept. do with them ... deport them, to where ... No, I did not think it was insane to ask for proof of citizenship, but I seriously doubt most people could fill out this form in its entirety.

[NYC Liberal]

27. How are they supposed to determine citizenship

if someone can't produce a birth certificate or anything else? It doesn't mean they're not a citizen...if the State Dept. suspected they really weren't and wanted to go after them then the burden would be on the State Dept to prove the person isn't a citizen.

[RKP5637]

29. Yep, good points! n/t

[XemaSab]

17. God, I had a bad enough time

proving to them that the name on my birth certificate is not the name I go by.

You try providing a birth certificate, social security card, AND seven other official documents from more than five years ago. x(

[Motown_Johnny]

18. No way I can provide every address since birth and even my employment record

would be tough



I was a bit of a rolling stone, in my youth.

[Armstead]

19. A Democratic Administration following the example of the GOP?

What a surprise.

Sounds a lot like what Democrats criticize the GOP for when they put similar roadblocks for voting...,It also has elements of mass birtherism.

[Tx4obama]

22. when applicant submits citizenship or identity evidence insufficient or of questionable authenticity

"The Biographical Questionnaire for a U.S. Passport, form DS-5513, is used to supplement an application for a U.S. passport when the applicant submits citizenship or identity evidence that is insufficient or of questionable authenticity," according to a supporting statement (PDF) issued along with the request for comment.

----------

It is right here in the first paragraph: http://papersplease.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/ds-5513-supportingstmnt.pdf

Edited to add:

SUPPORTING STATEMENT FOR PAPERWORK REDUCTION ACT SUBMISSION
Biographical Questionnaire for a U.S. Passport OMB Number 1405-XXXX DS-5513

A. JUSTIFICATION

1. The Biographical Questionnaire for a U.S. Passport, form DS-5513, is used to supplement an application for a U.S. passport when the applicant submits citizenship or identity evidence that is insufficient or of questionable authenticity. Passport Specialists and Consular Officers will use this form to collect additional information to further establish the identity and/or citizenship of a passport applicant who has not submitted adequate evidence with his/her passport application.

The DS-5513 solicits data necessary for Passport Services to issue a United States passport in the exercise of responsibilities granted to the Secretary of State in 22 U.S.C. 221a and Executive Order 11295 (August 5, 1966) for the issuance of passports to U.S. citizens and nationals. Such responsibilities require the determination of identity and citizenship or nationality with reference to the provisions of Title III of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. sections 1201 – 1503) and the 14th
By definition, a passport is a travel document issued under the authority of the Secretary of State attesting to the identity and nationality of the bearer (22 C.F.R. 51.1 ). An applicant bears the burden of establishing his/her identity and citizenship, and the Department may require an applicant to submit such additional evidence of identity and/or citizenship as it deems to be necessary. 22 C.F.R. §§ 51.23, 51.40, 51.45. The procedures for establishing an applicant’s identity and citizenship are outlined in 22 C.F.R. part 50, subparts B and C. Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, and compliance with 22 U.S.C. 212 and 213.

SNIP

[RKP5637]

25. Thanks! n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

32. Unless the OP can tell me how this process differs from the

former processes used to establish birth place without the proper documents this is just more hysteria. A passport is absolute ID in most cases. We can not have people stroll in and say "I am RKP5637, give me a passport with that name and my photo" now can we?
There have always been long, complicated processes to offer alternate proof of place of birth. I doubt the OP has completed such a process in the past.
What method would the OP use for those who lack a certificate of birth to prove the facts at hand? Should it be the honor system? Or perhaps those who lack the common forms of id should simply not be allowed to travel out of the country, is that your idea?
At least show me how this is harder than it used to be, because it used to be a huge, huge amount of difficult work. In what ways is it harder now?

[RKP5637]

34. I doubt most could ever complete this application. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

37. Address the specifics of what I said and asked, thanks.

If not, you are just playing hysterics. This tactic of ignoring all of the questions asked is rude if nothing else.
So I will assume you think that anyone who does not have approved certificate of birth should simply be denied the right to travel outside the country.

[RKP5637]

38. I really don't think I ever said or implied that. "So I will assume you think that anyone who does

not have approved certificate of birth should simply be denied the right to travel outside the country." My point was that it was quite lengthly. No, I do not have an alternative, but can someone in their 80's, for example, recall (have access) to all of this information?

[Bluenorthwest]

40. Here's the thing, man

This is the same sort of process my own mother went through 40 years ago or so. She had no birth certificate. She had to provide lots and lots of information to make up for that, much of which was also unavailable. It took weeks, in part because back then, no internet, no fax, all snail mail, notaries, affidavits, school records. This is what she did. The Department of State has always had such processes in place, and they've always had the right to take it or leave it.
I agree it is a lengthy process, but I just don't see 'lengthy' as such a bad thing when you are establishing legal identity. It has to authenticate your identification.
The alternatives are the honor system, which is just not sane, and simply rejecting all people like my mom from even applying.
And again, I do not see a shred of evidence that this is 'harder' than it was. It has always been hard.
What did you think happens when a person has no proof of birth and wants a passport?
I just don't get the argument. No country will issue you a passport on a casual basis, and this one never, ever did. Why is it an issue now, and what are the specific changes you do not like?

[RKP5637]

43. Just so you know, I'm not arguing with you at all. I guess what I'm wondering is if

all of these things were already in place why more is now required. It sounds like they were already very thorough with your mother. I've got an appt. in a minute so if you reply and I don't get back for a bit please don't think I'm ignoring you or something.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. I'm not trying to aruge either...

But you have not demonstrated that more is required, just that there is a new form for it.
I've just seen lots of reaction to this, but no one can tell me what they think was the former process, nor how this differs, or why they think it is 'too much' or any of that.
This OP is titled 'The State Department wants to make it harder'. You declare this to be insane. But you do not show that it is harder or even different from a process you'd never thought about before. The attribution of a desire to 'make it harder' is a large step to take when you do not bother to even compare the new process to the old. You do not explain what you think should be done, if all of this is 'insane' and 'harder'.
I doubt it is harder. You have not demonstrated that it is. And 'harder' is the subject of the thread, 'harder and insane'. In the OP you seem to be saying it should be much easier but you do not make as case for that either.

[RKP5637]

58. I'm back. The OP was titled 'The State Department wants to make it harder' since

that was the title of the article/discussion on Dylan Ratigan. The discussion with you has been interesting and informative. Not being an expert here, but in having read your comments and several others, I think what we are looking at is a new form to clarify the process for previous information sought by the state dept. My passport days were quite awhile ago and fortunately I had a state issued birth certificate, so I did not have to go through any of this. My initial birth certificate was rejected, but the state one sufficed.

[CreekDog]

54. Can you name your mother's doctor during her pregnancy, UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY?

can you truthfully attest to something you could not possibly have been a witness to?

but don't worry, if you try to give an honest answer and it turns out to be false --the government will understand and everything will be just fine.

don't worry.

[RandomThoughts]

33. And they probably can impose a pentalty if not accurate.

LOL

Creating a new law for targeted justice.

You can see it is an attempt at a lock down.

If that article is true, it is absurd.

First off, it is none of there business, second off as you said, very few people could fill that out accurately.


Removing ability to see other countries is a key factor in successful propaganda.

They are declaring war with such measures.

[RKP5637]

35. On the Dylan Ratigan program today he said there was jail time for

wrongfully listed information. I haven't seen that listed anyplace else. I know I would have trouble listing all of this information. And most of my supervisors would be long dead by now if I could even remember them all.

[RandomThoughts]

36. That is not the point actually.

It is none of there business.

it is absurd.

Then again so is not having the beer and travel money sent to me.

[CreekDog]

55. Right, attest to the place, doctors and circumstances of your birth --stuff you can't attest to

the best you can say is --well, somebody told me that's what happened, except when you fill out the form, you can't put that.

so your aging mother tells you her doctor was your sibling's doctor, so you write it down.

then it turns out that doctor died before you were born.

which makes your statement false.

if you are brought before a judge having to explain why the statement was false, how is this rule going to seem?

[datadiva]

39. Looks like I'm never leaving the U.S.

What a crock.

[Tx4obama]

44. If you have a U.S. birth certificate then it doesn't apply to you. n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

41. Only for those who cannot provide valid documentation of citizenship.

This is a non-issue and it doesn't apply to most people.

[customerserviceguy]

42. All addresses since birth?

I doubt I could ever complete such a list. If it were all addresses you've lived at for five or more years, that list would be possible to compile, it wouldn't be more than a half dozen places in my fifty-five years.

[karynnj]

47. Only for people with adequate proof of citizenship

It actually seems a path to help those who currently have a problem.

[SoCalDem]

56. Not for MOST people..

They are only adding extra possibilities for people who previously might not have been able to get one because they lacked the birth certificate.

[louslobbs]

61. Why? So we can't get off the sinking ship? I bet it doesn't get harder for the rich to get one.

Lou

[MilesColtrane]

64. Unrec for not pointing out up front that this doesn't apply to the vast majority of...

those seeking a passport.