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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 12:44 PM
Original message
Libyan tribes call on Gaddafi to go
Libya's tribes urged Muammar Gaddafi on Wednesday to cede power, as rebels backed by Nato air strikes said they forced the strongman's missiles out of range of the lifeline port of Misrata.

Chiefs or representatives of 61 tribes from across the North African country called for an end to Gaddafi's four-decade rule, in a joint statement released by French writer Bernard-Henri Levy.

"Faced with the threats weighing on the unity of our country, faced with the manoeuvres and propaganda of the dictator and his family, we solemnly declare: Nothing will divide us," said the statement, released on Wednesday in Benghazi.

"We share the same ideal of a free, democratic and united Libya.

"The Libya of tomorrow, once the dictator has gone, will be a united Libya, with Tripoli as its capital and where we will at last be free to build a civil society according to our own wishes," it said.

http://mg.co.za/article/2011-04-27-libyan-tribes-call-on-gaddafi-to-go/

This refutes the claim that only the rebels in the east are against Gaddafi.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. What about the Qaddafi Tribe? Oh, I forgot Qaddafi is the Head of the Qaddafi Tribe
Edited on Wed Apr-27-11 01:15 PM by happyslug
The most important tribe in Libya under Qaddafi has been and continues to be Qaddafi's own tribe. It is the tribe that controls the Air Force, it is the Tribe that head most (But not all) Government top Government Positions. In many ways, if Qaddafi goes, so does the tribe's Control of the Libyan Government.

Sorry, until his own Supporters tell it is time for him to go, Qaddafi will stay.

DU's spell Check uses Quddafi for the name of the Leader of Libya,

For more on how to spell Quddafi/Gaddafi/Kaddafi spelling:

"Because of the lack of standardization of transliterating written and regionally pronounced Arabic, Gaddafi's name was romanized in many different ways. Even though the Arabic spelling of a word does not change, the pronunciation may vary in different varieties of Arabic, which may suggest a different romanization.....The definite article al- is often omitted.

"Muammar Gaddafi" is the spelling used by TIME, BBC News, the majority of the British press and by the English service of Al-Jazeera.

The Associated Press, MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News use "Moammar Gadhafi".

The Library of Congress uses "Qaddafi, Muammar" as the primary name.

The Edinburgh Middle East Report uses "Mu'ammar Qaddafi" and the U.S. Department of State uses "Mu'ammar Al-Qadhafi", although the White House chooses to use "Muammar el-Qaddafi".

The Xinhua News Agency uses "Muammar Khaddafi" in its English reports.

The New York Times uses "Muammar el-Qaddafi".

The Chicago Tribune and the Los Angeles Times of Tribune Company use "Moammar Kadafi".

In 1986, Gaddafi reportedly responded to a Minnesota school's letter in English using the spelling "Moammar El-Gadhafi". The title of the homepage of algathafi.org reads "Welcome to the official site of Muammar Al Gathafi".

An article published in the London Evening Standard in 2004 lists a total of 37 spellings of his name, while a 1986 column by The Straight Dope quotes a list of 32 spellings known at the Library of Congress. ABC identified 112 possible spellings.<212> This extensive confusion of naming was used as the subject of a segment of Saturday Night Live's Weekend Update on 12 December 1981.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I am sorry that the spelling of Gaddafi's
is more important than the over 10,000 that he has killed, the crimes against humanity that he has committed (report due May 4), the brutality he has exhibited against people wanting to be free, the "extermination" of a Berber culture, and the brainwashing of children to accept only "Gaddafi, Allah and Libya".

I could care less how his name is spelled.

I care more about the human beings he is slaughtering.

Btw, early on in the hostilities two Air Force pilots defected to Malta, and I think there were others that bailed out and crashed their planes. Some loyalty to Gaddafi.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. My Point was that HIS TRIBE, WHICH HE IS THE HEAD OF, is NOT among those 69 "Tribal Leaders"
Edited on Wed Apr-27-11 04:04 PM by happyslug
You must understand that most tribes ELECT their leaders. These elections are informal, more meetings of the elders then what we call elections (i.e. more like the Iowa Caucus then the New Hampshire primary). in regards to the Qaddafi Tribe, Muammar Qaddafi is the leader and HIS tribe seems to have given him their whole support in this war.

AS to the spelling of his name, I was just pointing out how and why it was and is spelled differently. Since he is known in the West by the name of his Tribe, I went into details do to the fact HIS TRIBE is the key, and as long as the Tribe Qaddafi supports the leader Qaddafi, this war will continue UNLESS he prevails OR (most likely) a compromise dividing the Country is agreed to.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I wanted to add the following to the above, but time ran out
Thus why you had 69 "Tribal Leaders" instead of actual tribes. Most tribes, the leadership is held by one man, but with the consensus of most of the elders of that tribe. In fact the start of the Shiite=Sunni division of Islam is tied in with Tribal Politics. Ali was the Son-in-law of Mohammad, who had NO male heir, thus under traditional rules of Arabic inheritance, Ali was Mohammad's heir for he was the father of Mohammad's Grandchildren. On the other hand, on the death of Mohammad, the elders of Islam followed traditional Arab Tribal Culture and decided among themselves who would succeed Mohammad. Ali was away, so the elders picked another. This continued for the first three Caliphs, then Ali was elected Caliph. On Ali's death, his followers rejected the election of someone other then Ali's son (The term Shiite, is Arab for "Followers of Ali"). The following Caliphs generally were in opposition to the Shiites and suppressed them (Killing several of Ali's Children, Grandchildren and other descenders). The Shiites then selected their own leaders in opposition to the Caliphs. The "Seveners" reject the selection done after the death to death of the Seventh leader of the Shiites, the "Twelvers" accept the Shiite leaders Eight through Twelve, but then say their leader went into "Hiding" and will appear when it is time for the Shiites to regain control over Islam. Most Shiites are "Twelvers", the best known "Seveners" were the Assassins of the Middle ages.

Anyway, the Shiite maintain the reason Ali did NOT object to the elections of the first three Caliphs was Ali wanted consensus with all of the main leaders of Islam, and agreeing to the Election was one way to get that Consensus. This alliance building lead to Ali's election as the Fourth Caliph. Thus both Sunni and Shiite Islam accept all four Caliphs as the rightful successors to Mohammad. The Sunni object to Ali only at the end of his rule, and the Shiite reject the Caliphs elected after Ali.

The reason I bring this up is to show and explain some of actions of these 69 "Tribal Leaders". Some tribes sent most of their elders, other sent just one. I suspect even Qaddafi's tribe had a leader among the 69. I suspect if Qaddafi's tribe has a representative at that meeting it is probably Qaddafi's sixth son, known to be with the opposition. Now, why the sixth son oppose his father is unknown, may be like the son of William Marshall, leader of the pro-King John Forces at the time of the Magna Charter, that son was one of the leaders of the Barons AGAINST King John, why the family split? William Marshall had a Feudal duty to King John since King John was his direct Liege Lord, while Marshall's son, direct Liege lord (the person who gave him the title to the land he lived on) was in opposition to King John. At the death of William Marshall his son succeeded to Marshall's property AND Feudal Duties tied in with those properties.

I suspect similar reason for the sixth son's opposition to his father, some other duty is kicking in forcing the sixth son to support the opposition (Which can include marital obligations, i.e. one imposed on him do to who he married). The sixth son may be generally in opposition with his father, but, again, looking at William Marshall, all of his sons were with him when he died, all succeeded him in turn (None lived long enough to have any heirs, England in the 1200s was NOT a nice place to live in, William Marshall living descendent's are all via his daughter).

Yes, Modern Libya is NOT 13th Century England, but it also NOT the 21st West. Both Tribal and Feudal Duties are alive and well in Libya. People and tribes switch sides all the time, based on what is going on, i.e. the tribes may agree to an attack, and if it succeeds can NOT agree to what should happen next for the reason the tribes have their own agenda. Remember Napoleon famous comment on what is the "best" opposition to fight, his response was "a Coalition". The reason is simple, each member of that Coalition is a member of the Coalition for different reasons and thus you can destroy your enemy by making sure what one of the member of the Coalition wants can NOT be obtained, that member will drop out and then the rest will drop out. This is most notable in Tribal conflicts, each tribe wants to improve its own lot, not the lot of the coalition at the expense of itself. Some tribes may support taking the oil Qaddafi controls for their own use and stop at that point, leaving Qaddafi control of the rest of the oil. Other tribes may want to expand smuggling of Africans into Europe, even at the expense of giving up Western Libya, for their control no oil and can NOT get control of oil, so control of the oil fields is unimportant to them. A tribe may want control of Benghazi, so to smuggle people into Europe, but care less about taking over the oil fields that would benefit another tribe. i.e. fight to keep Benghazi free of Qaddafi, but pull its troops, munitions and supplies out of any fight over oil. Worse, switch sides for Qaddafi offers it a share of the oil if Qaddafi gets control of the oil, while the opposition refuses to share the oil.

Tribal politics can be fun and deadly, bloody and cutthroat. It is the underlying thrust of what is going in in Libya, not overt but the most serious factor in the on going fight. The tribes themselves are often coalitions more then a rigid military heirarchy, with members within the tribe switching positions within the tribe and within the Country. Many tribal sub-groups will have pseudo Feudal Duties as to certain areas of Libya, show up to support sub-clan A if X is attacked, but then must support sub-clan B if attacked b Sub-clan A if Y is involved. These details are known to the tribal members, but it is hard to determine them as an outsider (Even all the Tribal Members may NOT fully understand their obligations are in certain situations, it just kicks in). Thus the reason the present situation is a mess, and will continue to be a mess until the tribes work out a compromise as to how Libya will be ruled. That is how disputes tend to be worked out in Tribal situations, fighting, people see the results of the Fighting, then the results lead to a compromise among the tribes.

In mahy ways the threat of US and Western Intervention is preventing this was happening, everyone is waiting to see how and if the West Intervene AND how that affects each tribe. Some tribe may benefit, other harmed, but it is unknown and as long as it is unknown the tribal leaders can NOT work out a deal. We saw this is Afghanistan and Iraq, as long the the US tried to impose its will, no solution to the fighting was possible, one the US STOPPED trying to impose its will and let the tribal leaders work out a deal, more and more clam became the norm (And this including giving money to the tribal leaders to spread among their tribal members to make sure the tribal members followed the decision of the Tribal Leaders).

The same thing will have to be worked out in Libya, but only once it is clear the result of the fighting had stalemated and you will NOT see that until the Rebels believe Western Intervention will NOT occur. That may be months or years from now, the sooner it occurs the better for Libya, but the West has to make clear it will NOT intervene and to do so the Bombing must stop
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Except those signatures don't seem to express a consensus:
"Each of the tribes in Libya is represented by at least a representative. In this list of 61 signatures, some tribes are represented 100%, others are still divided," he said.

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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Elections are not won with 100% of the vote.
Polls do not say someone is ahead only if they have 100% of the vote.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. There was a vote?
Frankly, it would be great if this was real because Libya could move itself toward a resolution. On the other hand, it's BHL and he's a notorious flake.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. That is the Nature of most tribes, it is rule by consensus then by a leader
Thus why you had 69 "Tribal Leaders" instead of actual tribes. Most tribes, the leadership is held by one man, but with the consensus of most of the elders of that tribe. In fact the start of the Shiite=Sunni division of Islam is tied in with Tribal Politics. Ali was the Son-in-law of Mohammad, who had NO male heir, thus under traditional rules of Arabic inheritance, Ali was Mohammad's heir for he was the father of Mohammad's Grandchildren. On the other hand, on the death of Mohammad, the elders of Islam followed traditional Arab Tribal Culture and decided among themselves who would succeed Mohammad. Ali was away, so the elders picked another. This continued for the first three Caliphs, then Ali was elected Caliph. On Ali's death, his followers rejected the election of someone other then Ali's son (The term Shiite, is Arab for "Followers of Ali"). The following Caliphs generally were in opposition to the Shiites and suppressed them (Killing several of Ali's Children, Grandchildren and other descenders). The Shiites then selected their own leaders in opposition to the Caliphs. The "Seveners" reject the selection done after the death to death of the Seventh leader of the Shiites, the "Twelvers" accept the Shiite leaders Eight through Twelve, but then say their leader went into "Hiding" and will appear when it is time for the Shiites to regain control over Islam. Most Shiites are "Twelvers", the best known "Seveners" were the Assassins of the Middle ages.

Anyway, the Shiite maintain the reason Ali did NOT object to the elections of the first three Caliphs was Ali wanted consensus with all of the main leaders of Islam, and agreeing to the Election was one way to get that Consensus. This alliance building lead to Ali's election as the Fourth Caliph. Thus both Sunni and Shiite Islam accept all four Caliphs as the rightful successors to Mohammad. The Sunni object to Ali only at the end of his rule, and the Shiite reject the Caliphs elected after Ali.

The reason I bring this up is to show and explain some of actions of these 69 "Tribal Leaders". Some tribes sent most of their elders, other sent just one. I suspect even Qaddafi's tribe had a leader among the 69. I suspect if Qaddafi's tribe has a representative at that meeting it is probably Qaddafi's sixth son, known to be with the opposition. Now, why the sixth son oppose his father is unknown, may be like the son of William Marshall, leader of the pro-King John Forces at the time of the Magna Charter, that son was one of the leaders of the Barons AGAINST King John, why the family split? William Marshall had a Feudal duty to King John since King John was his direct Liege Lord, while Marshall's son, direct Liege lord (the person who gave him the title to the land he lived on) was in opposition to King John. At the death of William Marshall his son succeeded to Marshall's property AND Feudal Duties tied in with those properties.

I suspect similar reason for the sixth son's opposition to his father, some other duty is kicking in forcing the sixth son to support the opposition (Which can include marital obligations, i.e. one imposed on him do to who he married). The sixth son may be generally in opposition with his father, but, again, looking at William Marshall, all of his sons were with him when he died, all succeeded him in turn (None lived long enough to have any heirs, England in the 1200s was NOT a nice place to live in, William Marshall living descendent's are all via his daughter).

Yes, Modern Libya is NOT 13th Century England, but it also NOT the 21st West. Both Tribal and Feudal Duties are alive and well in Libya. People and tribes switch sides all the time, based on what is going on, i.e. the tribes may agree to an attack, and if it succeeds can NOT agree to what should happen next for the reason the tribes have their own agenda. Remember Napoleon famous comment on what is the "best" opposition to fight, his response was "a Coalition". The reason is simple, each member of that Coalition is a member of the Coalition for different reasons and thus you can destroy your enemy by making sure what one of the member of the Coalition wants can NOT be obtained, that member will drop out and then the rest will drop out. This is most notable in Tribal conflicts, each tribe wants to improve its own lot, not the lot of the coalition at the expense of itself. Some tribes may support taking the oil Qaddafi controls for their own use and stop at that point, leaving Qaddafi control of the rest of the oil. Other tribes may want to expand smuggling of Africans into Europe, even at the expense of giving up Western Libya, for their control no oil and can NOT get control of oil, so control of the oil fields is unimportant to them. A tribe may want control of Benghazi, so to smuggle people into Europe, but care less about taking over the oil fields that would benefit another tribe. i.e. fight to keep Benghazi free of Qaddafi, but pull its troops, munitions and supplies out of any fight over oil. Worse, switch sides for Qaddafi offers it a share of the oil if Qaddafi gets control of the oil, while the opposition refuses to share the oil.

Tribal politics can be fun and deadly, bloody and cutthroat. It is the underlying thrust of what is going in in Libya, not overt but the most serious factor in the on going fight.


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I think that's a very important point.
Essentially, sending a leader or having one sign risks little or nothing as there is wiggle room (other leaders) should things go wrong.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-28-11 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
10. French writer Bernard-Henri Levy - THE CHIEF PROPAGANDIST FOR THE CYRENAICANS! WOW!
Edited on Thu Apr-28-11 12:57 AM by Distant Observer
This is like Richard Nixon's

I AM NOT A CROOK

Do the rebel supporters have not shame?

A meeting in Benghazi no less. How the hell would any tribal leader who was opposed to the Cyrenaican rebels get to Benghazi without being killed -- getting there or leaving once he announced his opposition?? That would be an interesting process which I would love to hear about -- not to say it would be impossible.

FOR GOD SAKE, ISN'T THE FIRST STEP FOR BOTH GADDAFI AND THE REBELS TO AGREE TO A CESSATION OF THE FIGHTING AND THE BOMBING and then having INTERNATIONALLY SUPERVISED ELECTIONS!

What are the rebels and their foreign allies afraid of. Why keep pushing propaganda and bombing rather than negotiations and ELECTIONS!
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