This is what Anglophobia looks like on DU...with bonus history lesson

[Agent William]

Hello everybody, I've been on long time lurker and small time poster. I find the Royal wedding has brought out the worst in some members of this forum. I find the vast majority of the comments on this board to be informative, clever and insightful. There are, however, a few post that do not follow along this line. For some reason, many here see this as an opportunity to take shots at the Royal institution, and that is quite understandable as the Royal family are both public and unelected. But a line is crossed when the British people are attacked on baseless grounds. Stereotypes of the'English' people being snobbish, rich and xenophobic have been perpetuated here as of late. Before I go on, I should make an effort to say that for every demeaning comment towards British people, the good people of DU are quick to refute. Still, I have seen several comments that are based on little more than Wikipedia history and ignorance... I will be making every effort to conceal the identity of the offending poster as I understand it is illegal here to name posters by name, and I respect that rule. This jewel was sent to me in a personal message, and then the brave soul blocked me from responding. As someone who is a few days away from receiving a BA in History, I cannot let the following go unabated:



<<"'Your Neville Chamberlein was incompetent..He "conceded" too much to Hitler...As for the Russians, they did their job, but at a price...Had England even been able to survive the bombing while waiting for their aid -- They were stuck around Germany on D-Day -- they would have enslaved you in Communism, as they did all the other countries they invaded during the war.[br />
We didn't do that, did we?

On top of it all, we fought the war on TWO fronts...The Brits basically got their asses kicked in the Pacific and had to depend on us to fight the Japanese."']>


Now, this is quite tame compared to what I have read in the past, but as someone who lost relatives fighting at the beaches of Dunkirk, I will not let this go unchallenged. This message goes on to blast my grammar and further insult me. Oh well, I pay professors to do the same so I'm not upset by that. Now let us address some of these claims:

First, Neville Chamberlain was dealing with a crushing economic depression and a military that was not only depleted but spread thinly across the globe. A military dedicated to propping up an empire of pain and sadness was in no shape to take on Hitler. Under these circumstances, what would have been the appropriate response to German aggression? Send the HMS Invincible to the Rhineland? The Paras in Berlin? Chamberlain instead elected for a diplomatic approach that was aimed at staving off the inevitable war for a few years. Parliament hoped to give time to prepare for a German onslaught. As laudable as his attempts may have been, he could not have prevented the war outright. US aid was indeed crucial for survival during the Battle of the Atlantic, and that is something that we paid very dearly for in post war repayments (see Lend-Lease agreement). The poster's next claim is quite interesting too... In a hypothetical situation where we beat back Hitler without further US intervention, I highly doubt that the USSR would have invaded us. Yes, the Eastern Bloc possibly would have extended to France, but that does not necessarily guarantee Britain being sucked into the Soviet sphere. I don't want to belabour this point as it is based on a hypothetical scenario.

Second, Britain fought on two fronts as well. The Japanese took Hong Kong and Singapore simply because our defenses were pointing out to sea expecting and amphibious response when the invaders actually rode bicycles inland and we got 'back-doored' so to speak. Malaya was gone too, but India was successfully held by British imperial forces for the duration of the war. Australia/New Zealand/PNG were also held. Yes we lost heavily early on, but it's hard to fight on two fronts when your factories keep getting bombed out and you are fighting for survival. Undoubtedly, the US won the Pacific and the world still owes an enormous thanks to America for halting and defeating Japanese aggression. Just don't forget, by 1944 we(by 'we' I'm included the Indian forces as we were in the same empire)defended and took back some of our own colonies.

It's almost one in the morning here and I need sleep. My essays aren't going to write themselves tomorrow. I welcome any fact based input as I'm sure I leaving a lot out. My point is, many nations shed blood to defeat evil and no ones' sacrifice in this effort should go unsung. Please don't PM me and not have to courage to allow me to respond. I'd rather not waste the time of DU'ers to challenge your attacks.

Thank you, and take care.

[Bluebear]

1. Believe me, some people will go to any lengths in their smugness

They are too sophisticated for everything. They are above everything. Don't take it to heart, you get used to it. :(

[Buzz Clik]

2. Agent William

Those are pretty ignorant statements you quoted. I'd be pleased to hear that you are teasing us and that you actually found them at the Free Republic. However, I saw similar statements myself here at DU today.

We do have Freeper moles here at DU, but we also have our fair share of complete idiots.

Sorry.

[WilliamPitt]

3. +1

[RandomThoughts]

4. Could you link to the threads.

I have not seen any of the stuff you mention posted.

It would be an interesting conversation.


Then again I haven't been paying attention to the royal marriage threads, so if they in there that might explain it.

[elocs]

7. The dilemma is that to link to the other threads would be seen as calling out those OPs

given the content of this OP.

[Agent William]

12. That's it right there. I don't want to call anyone out by name. n/t

[flamingdem]

5. hahaha I love it all because it just shows how we're tied at the hip

Yanks and Brits are a great mirror of one another, endless cause for hilarity and offence, or is that offense.

And you know the dilemma of those who have a British and American parent? Offensive and loud but utterly
embarrassed by ourselves.

[NYC Liberal]

6. Don't feel bad...there are many posts on DU that stereotype Americans too!

;)

But yes, I totally agree...attacking or stereotyping an entire group of people (race, state, country, etc) is wrong.

[Agent William]

8. I see many on here getting slammed for...

belonging to a certain group. i.e. Southerners and Christians come to mind. What I do like about this website is that such comments get shot down pretty quickly.

[pacalo]

16. Ding ding ding! I'm a southerner & have been (indirectly) insulted many times.

[blondeatlast]

25. Yup. nt

[Snoutport]

34. yeah...I owe Southern DUers a few apologies...I just get so danged mad at Florida!

And I lump y'all together.

[xmas74]

43. I'm a Christian from the Bible Belt area

and I'm insulted on a regular basis. Thank goodness that some will gladly back me up on here.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. yeah well perhaps here is something you didn't know

Had Chamberlain stood up instead of caving, Hitler and his cronies would have likely been deposed in a military coup. The same group that almost killed Hitler in 44 had lined up serious high level military support for a coup in 38 contingent on Britain standing firmly against Hitler's move against Czechoslovakia. Worse, this was communicated to the British government. The Munich disaster was crap and defending it is pathetic.

I don't care one way or another about the wedding.

[LanternWaste]

14. Monday morning quarterbacks never fail to make that touchdown pass.

Hindsight has perfect vision, Monday morning quarterbacks never fail to make that touchdown pass, and movie critics can always make a better film than the one they had just watched...

[Warren Stupidity]

28. It isn't "monday morning quarterbacking".

It just isn't widely known that the British Government had a serious credible opportunity to end WWII before it got started, and did not act on it. There was no guarantee of success, but the support in the German High Command was clearly sufficient to make the coup effective.

[leftynyc]

10. I certainly cannot apologize

for everyone on this board but I'm truly sorry about some of the ugliness you read today about Great Britain and their people. I simply don't understand why people took an occasion like a wedding to let loose on every xenophobic impulse they have. I really don't have anything to say about the history lesson - it's like the anonymous pm-er held you personally responsible for what happened during WW11 - how ridiculous (I'm very sorry about your relatives at Dunkirk). Great Britain has been our most loyal and dependable ally during my lifetime and as an American, I'm grateful for their support.

By the Way, I enjoyed the wedding very much. Can't explain why - Cindarella syndrome? Maybe because it's "exotic" in that we simply don't have anything like that here. There was so much joy on everyone's face today - it was nice to get caught up in that for a few hours. I also adored your country and found the British welcoming, friendly and always ready to party. You saw the worst of DU today, no doubt about that. I hope you've also seen what bright, thoughtful and passionate people on the left are capable of when we know what we're doing is the right thing. Have a good weekend.

[pacalo]

18. I stayed up all night to watch it. I thought Diana was a super class act & I wanted to

see her son get married. And I agree about the Cinderella draw of the wedding. I thoroughly enjoyed watching it. I could care less about the negative threads about it; I like what I like.

[elocs]

11. If not for Great Britian, WWII would have been over before we got into it. n/t

[Agent William]

15. If not for the US, Hitler's granddaughter may be marrying Prince William today.

And that would be if we got lucky...

:hi:

[elocs]

17. Possibly correct, but if GB had not held the fort for 2+ years

the U.S. help would not have meant much.

[pacalo]

13. That sounds like freeper talk & that's probably why the coward chose to address you in a PM.

Just for the record, it embarrassed me to read those demeaning comments.

I love Great Britain.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

19. Thank you, my dear Agent William...

For your most intelligent and insightful remarks.

I'm sorry you had to experience the idiot and his remarks via PM. Most of us are better than that, and I hope the responses in your thread show you.

I appreciate the history lesson.

And, FWIW, I loved the wedding coverage, and applaud William and Catherine as they begin their married life.

Cheers!

:toast:

[enlightenment]

20. Agent William,

I have been astonished at the venom directed at the people of Britain over this matter; finally decided that it is an 'othering' mechanism (have you read Said? I assume you have if you are completing your degree. Colley uses his idea to great effect in Britons, as well).

Apparently, some people have to have an 'other', even if they have to look back several centuries to find it (and muddy the history to justify it).

It has been an unpleasant week here - hopefully, some of these folks will take a deep breath soon and realise that their attitude is antithetical to what they profess to believe.

*good luck on your essay*

[hlthe2b]

21. Please know that the majority of folks here really do not feel that way

And just know that the Anglophobia that you see is really part of a larger issue with a minority of Duers that has nothing to do with G. Britain, foreign relations, the Royalty, or anything similar. I think many have put their finger on it, if you happen to peruse some of those threads, but in order not to call them out, I'll just leave it there.

Please know that the not all Americans are ignorant, bigoted, nor unwilling to show respect for the historical contributions of other nations as you might think. Hell, during the Bush* years, I was sort of hoping you guys would take us back. ;)

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zorra]

23. Absolutely wrong. We love England. We love English people.

A whole lot of us really don't like the concept of royalty.

We'd feel pretty much exactly the same way if this was the royal wedding of Saudi Arabia and was the main subject of every media outlet for days on end.

[calimary]

24. Hey, confirmed Anglophile here! I finally fell asleep after 5am, following a night of

delighting in the Royal Wedding! I even dressed up for it and wore a crazy hat!

I appreciate the monarchy and the Brits' embrace, whether it's a loose one or closer-in. I love it myself, and perhaps that's because as an American I have no royalty to look at (well, no REAL royalty). We make ours up, taking from old families with long roots here, or movie stars or cowboys or brash tycoons. You guys have the real thing. You guys have families with longer roots back into history than we relative adolescents can barely imagine.

If it weren't for England, we wouldn't have The Beatles, or the Stones, the Robin Hood legend, Earl Gray tea, Shakespeare, Churchill, the inspiration of the Magna Carta, Twiggy, Big Ben, Monty Python, crumpets, King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, Harry Potter, James Bond, the miniskirt, the Isle of Wight, John Mayall, Cary Grant, Charlie Chaplin, and Bob Hope, Richard Branson, Princess Di, Simon Cowell, the Boy Scouts (Lord Baden-Powell), Wembly Stadium, Stephen Hawking, Thomas Paine (yeah, "our" Thomas Paine), Henry VIII, Mr. Steed and Mrs. Peel, Gilbert & Sullivan, Sir Walter Raleigh, Alexander Graham Bell, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth I, Queen Elizabeth II (proof positive that a girl can wear the crown - and HOW!), J.R.R. Tolkien, Elizabeth Taylor, Geoffrey Chaucer, Sherlock Holmes, Edward Jenner, Jane Austen and the Bronte Sisters, David Lloyd George, Florence Nightengale, Julie Andrews, Sir Francis Drake, David Frost, Charles Dickens, William Blake, Sir Thomas More, Michael Faraday, Peter Pan, Sir Isaac Newton, or Charles Darwin. We wouldn't have high tea, the Tower of London, King's Road, No. 10 Downing Street, Oxford and Cambridge Universities, Westminster Abbey, Carnaby Street, Admiral Nelson, Trafalgar Square, pub crawls, Agatha Christie, Mary Poppins, Lord Byron, Edward Elgar, English lavendar, Mary Quant, Alexander McQueen, Harrod's department store, Liverpool's Casbah Club, the Globe Theatre, Anne Boleyn, Sir Richard Attenborough, Rolls Royces and Bentleys, stiff upper lips, the Queen's corgis, the "British Invasion," or THOSE crown jewels (sigh...). I could go on.

And it's YOUR monarchy. I will never denounce you guys for having one, or for debating whether to have one. Just because it didn't work for us doesn't mean it doesn't work - period. And I'd rather hear an English accent than almost any other accent anywhere. Just me, but there you are.

:grouphug: :patriot: :yourock:

[Starry Messenger]

26. "Enslaved you in Communism" ??

Good lord, shades of the Dulles brothers.

Please don't lose sleep over this place. Many people here illustrate the triumph of arrogance over being informed. England has nothing to apologize for or defend about its sacrifices in World War 2.

[MilesColtrane]

27. At least you're not from Texas.

We get shit year round.

[Raine]

29. I was a history major in college, especially love British history and

loved the wedding. Some people here like to feel superior by putting down what others like. I don't let it get to me, I like what I like and that's not going to change by anyone else's "opinion".

[eridani]

30. Moi? Mock a country with universal health care?

Not on your life. Especially since it comes with the lowest per capita cost among developed countries.

[SoCalDem]

37. and we do much worse here.. We have no "real" Royals, but

our society seems to worship anorexic, promiscuous celeb-utantes, overpaid/oversexed roid-raged sports "stars", and of course above all else, we seem to worship rich people because we keep giving them tax cuts:)

At least the UK Royals encourage tourism, and are always out & about doing charitable things.. The males in the monarchy do serve in the military, and the women (most of them) seem to find things to do too.. Surely at QE's advanced age, it's not unreasonable for her to be less active these days.

If they were so horrible, surely some way would have been found to end the whole thing..

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. I'm thankfully oblivious to most celebrity "culture," but

the other day, when stuck in a long supermarket line, I picked up a copy of US.

Really depressing. Apparently some people are famous only for being really thin and stupid.

[provis99]

31. well thank god the Brits never slag the French over their war record.

Oh, wait, they do.

I also remember being at a West Ham football match when a visiting German club played; the rude Brit fans insisted on shouting "2-nil!" the whole time (get it? World war I and 2 were losses for the germans. Real class).

[Fuzz]

32. I have not seen the Chamberlain threads at all. I dislike the concept of royalty and I make no

apologies for it. But to say all British people fit a certain stereotype is not something with which I agree. I've been criticized today for my opinions, but I am not someone who likes to throw around stereotypes, unless it's in a joking manner or to prove a point.

[JackRiddler]

33. Wishing the British mental and cultural liberation from the medieval night of having monarchs...

is Anglophilia.

[KitSileya]

35. Perspective is a funny thing.

I remember sitting in an (American) college class and hearing the professor mention WWII and how when it started in 1941 it brought about a lot of apocalyptic prophecies (it was a folklore class on the millenium and other apocalyptic movements.) I turned to my neighbor and whispered, "WWII started in 1941? What about 1940?" At which point I got schooled as well, as my (British) neighbor correctly stated, "What about September 1939?"

We do tend to be very ethnocentric in our view of history, which is very unfortunate. History isn't decided by one country, it's global.

[Norrin Radd]

36. I thought all Brits were like Les from Coronation Street?

;-)

[Ferret Annica]

38. Thanks for your perspective and a greatly informative 'rant.'

I am Irish ethnic and from a culture grown from Irish immigrants in New England that has deep bones to pick about the English hegemony in Ireland. I am educated well enough to know better than to mindlessly hate the English.

But if you want to understand a strong component that makes up the antipathy you find distressing, you need only look at the historic problems between my ancestors and yours' to understand part of it.

I still want Ireland united and English meddling removed the northern part of that land. I might be American, but I feel deep anger when I even hear the name Ian Paisley. And long live the memory of Bobby Sands.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I enjoyed it.

[Vinnie From Indy]

39. I find it wildly amusing how many of my fellow DU'ers simply take on faith that

the OP is telling the truth. Have we really become that desensitized to rational thought and healthy skepticism. Any OP that makes the claim that they read something on DU that offended them or some other group is obligated to provide at least a single link to the thread or threads in question. That is not calling anyone out by name, it is simply providing the most basic bit pf credibility for the conversation to begin.

I will refrain from jumping on the bandwagon until Agent William coughs up some links!

Cheerio!

[Agent William]

42. If I were to post a link here I would essentially be calling out the DU'er by name

I recall seeing other threads getting taken down for doing such things. Also this was sent to me in a personal message, so there is really no link to it.

[Vinnie From Indy]

44. and Bob's your Uncle!

Slainte!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. Anybody who thinks "Hitler would have enslaved you in Communism" is

too ignorant to worry about.

I'm an Anglophile. Some things about your country drive me crazy (like the outrageous prices at your laundromats or the unwillingness to let financially secure Americans retire there), but all in all, I like English people and much of your culture, much as I wish you hadn't fallen for the Tory line in the last election.

Sad to say, the average American knows nothing about world history or current events outside the U.S. (or sometimes even in the U.S.), and so ignorant statements are common.

As for the royal wedding, nobody does pomp and circumstance better than you guys, and if you want to have a monarchy, that's your business and no one else's.

(I think the American Revolution was highly over-rated. It set a precedent of solving problems with violence. Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, British colonies that won their independence peacefully, are much less violent in every respect.)

[mr blur]

45. +1