MSNBC: Qadaffi's son killed. 3 grandchildren killed.

[LLStarks]

The colonel and his wife were in the same building but survived.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42829913/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

[hlthe2b]

1. I can't feel so bad about the adult son, but the grandkids...

I know this is to be expected--collateral damage and all that--but it pains me to think of innocents being killed, no matter who their Grandfather. Frankly, i always felt bad about the Qadaffi adopted child killed by Reagan's bombing.

[enlightenment]

2. Nah - we don't want regime change.

We just want . . . what?

What is the purpose of bombing - repeatedly - the family compound? Of killing children? I'm sure he will be much more willing to negotiate now.

[malaise]

5. OIL

The Chinese must not get it

[Schema Thing]

31. what?

because god knows we can stop the Chinese from getting oil. Look how successful we are/have been at that so far.

[MadMaddie]

29. What about Ghadaffi using cluster bombs on the uprising towns

and their citizens? Should he remain untouched?

[FrenchieCat]

34. According to some here, nothing is Ghadaffi's fault.

He's just an innocent 40 year reigning murdering dictator
who's been given chance after chance to do the right thing.

[still_one]

44. You are incorrect, there are not people here who sympathize with ghadaffi, however, the

objection that people have is what right do we have to invade an independent country for internal affairs no matter how horrible?

Some here who were against our invasion of Iraq have no problem with Libya, and even though both were under the guise the UN, this is a pure western operation, the Arab league does not represent the full consensus of that region.

Who decides which internal affairs we should involve ourselves with and which ones we do not? There is definitely not consistency

and as for your argument that he is a murdering dictator, which he is, as justification, I don't see us moving in the Sudan or so many other countries that are just a murderous

The people here who are against the invasion of Libya are not pro ghadaffi, and to misrepresent that view, in spite of this particular thread, where children were allegedly killed by our bombs is a pure distraction of the point of the thread.

I am sure any parent whose child or family member is killed by our bombs gives a damn about the distinction of the murdering dictator, and the killing of THEIR family members

[FrenchieCat]

48. The Libyans requested assistance

and they got it.

And no, Iraq was not invaded under the guise of the UN.
Read up on the history of the Iraq invasion and get back to us
once you separate the facts from you making shit up to bolster
your "theory".

Also, catch up on Sudan -- http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=37501&Cr=sudan&Cr1

[still_one]

55. Bring back that good old colonialism, and by all means justify by saying Lybians requiested

assiistance, and then say I am making up shit to bolster a theory.

and who speaks for the Lybians? hmmm. Why aren't we doing the same thing in Syria?

I can give you a lot of examples, but I suspect you will say I am making up shit to bolster a theory, or how perhaps I sympathize with qaddafi, which is a statement you made about people here on DU, and you say I am making up shit. I wonder who is really making it up?

I am talking about the second invasion of Iraq, that was a joke. You remember the second invasion, the one based on a lie

Also, do you have any idea how long Sudan has been slaughtering their own people?

Oh, and as far as asking for assistance, if I remember correctly, South Viet Nam also asked for our assistance, along with the mujahideen in Afghanistan asking for our assistance

[FrenchieCat]

59. The Iraq invasion was not UN sanctioned.......

I'm sure you are also glad we waited until we were bombed prior to us getting involved
in WWII, hey? We should have waited for the photographs of pile of bodies in libya prior to honoring the UN Charter....but I'm sure you'd be pissed about something else.

[Puregonzo1188]

78. I'm sorry are you saying that Gaddafi would have bombed Pearl Harbor if we

were not murdering his family?

Jesus Christ DU has devolved.

[FrenchieCat]

80. Worse.

But I don't need a pile of bodies to prove it to those
who only believe anything that is going to happen
based on photographic evidence.

Guess the 3,500 killed prior to UN action by Qaddafi don't count.
I'm sure Qaddafi appreciates your viewpoint.

[still_one]

88. Big difference with WWII. Hitler invaded other countries, same as Japan. As far as I am aware

Libya did not invade other countries. The question remains is this an internal affair within the boundaries of Libya, or are they threatening other countries.

In the first gulf war, Iraq invaded Kuwait, which is again a different situation than Libya, though I suspect some will argue that the United States Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, gave tacit approval to Hussein that we would not get involved if he invaded Kuwait, though we would not agree with that action.

Incidently, there are at least two valid arguments concerning Iraq, and each have their points. Those points, which you are arguing now is that the invasion is justified for humanitarian reasons. The other side is that we should not get involved in a countries internal affairs. However, If Libya invades another sovereign country, it would no longer be consider an internal affair.

Arguing on the basis of those issues is what the debate should be about, however, an implication if someone takes the position that we should not get involved in another country's internal affairs, does not mean that person supports quaddafi(sic). In fact, most people on DU that take that position do NOT support him, but believe we should stay out of another countries internal affairs.

A perfect example is during our Civil War. At that time both England and France sympathized strongly with the confederacy.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/europeandcivilwar.htm

The confederacy was morally the wrong side without question, and I suspect if the Europeans did involve themselves in that war, they would have found economic, and other reasons to justify it.

In Libya we have a dictatorship, however, there is no guarantee that those wanting to overthrow quaddafi will be friendly toward us?

We pushed for Palestinian elections, and when Hamas won those elections, we refused to accept it.

Our invasion of Iraq destabilized the whole region

What we did in Iran by installing the Shah through involving ourseleves in the overthrow of the democratically elected governement of the Iranian Prime Minister Mosaddegh demonstrates again why involving ourseleves in a countries internal affairs is not a sound policy.

[Hannah Bell]

89. what other country did khaddafi invade or bomb? do tell, in your specious comparisons to ww2.

the only country invading & bombing other countries is *US* (& the rest of the western powers).

[Distant Observer]

38. EVIDENCE? Since initial report no further evidence has turned up. US is the specialist when it

comes to access to cluster munitions, not Libya.

[FrenchieCat]

42. Here.....

Libya: Gaddafi forces 'using cluster bombs in Misrata'

Human Rights Watch say Gaddafi's army has fired the weapons, which cause massive damage and are banned in most states
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/15/libya-cluster-bomb-misrata

[still_one]

57. Then I guess we should start attacking some of our "allies" who also are using cluster bombs /nt

[tekisui]

71. Obama has used cluster bombs on Yemeni civilians.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0607/US-cluster-bombs-in-Yemen-The-right-weapon-in-Al-Qaeda-fight

Killed 35 women and children.

[Hannah Bell]

90. Libya conflict: Rebels accused of reneging on mines vow

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13138102

The BBC filmed rebels planting anti-vehicle mines near the key town of Ajdabiya at the weekend.

Human Rights Watch researchers said mines had been laid despite rebel assurances they would not be used.

Tens of thousands of the mines, which are cased in plastic and contain almost 7kg (15lb) of explosives, have been found stockpiled in depots in the rebel stronghold of Benghazi in eastern Libya.

[Iterate]

54. Common enough to decorate a gate

They're the ones with the fins. It stabilizes them and makes them spin. When they explode it kicks the bomblets out farther, killing anyone exposed withing 50 meters. Nothing special about it. Launched from an ordinary mortar. Bad deal if you're standing in line for a bit of bread.

[EFerrari]

65. What about the rebels laying land mines? Should we support that?

[tekisui]

68. I guess cluster bombs are only bad when used against one's own

citizens?

US using cluster bombs on Yemeni civilians isn't a such a big deal, huh?

[xchrom]

3. May this all end soon. Nt

[franzia99]

63. Agreed. I would've liked to see the son tried, but I don't like seeing anyone killed.

The poor grandkids especially.

[malaise]

4. Where is the fucking United Nations

This is slaughter by imperialists

[iwishiwas]

8. Perhaps the UN are the imperialists?

[Fuzz]

9. We all know the answer to that.

[EFerrari]

64. They are now military participants, that's where.

What a joke.

[Modern_Matthew]

6. War is murder. nt

[iwishiwas]

7. more collateral damage. More hatred directed at the US.

[tekisui]

10. More evidence of mission creep.

[quinnox]

11. Jesus, and we consider ourselves the good guys

The US should be ashamed.

And what happened to not assassinating foreign leaders? If we can do it, then we give our enemies the green light to do it to ours. Its a two way street. This is a very dangerous precedent to set.

[Tx4obama]

12. Gaddafi has had MONTHS to step down, everything happening now is his own fault. n/t

[Fla_Democrat]

14. Didn't I hear that about Saddam Hussein?

:shrug:



:smoke:

[AlabamaLibrul]

15. Yes, you did. And we've had nearly a decade to GTFO and still haven't.

Trying to blow up every little brown kid related to Gaddafi has been the MO for 30 years now, this is just the chance to do it publicly.

[rpannier]

16. Why should he step down?

Do you feel that way about Bahrain and Jordan?
The royal families have had months to step down yet they refuse and they have attacked their own people.
Or does the need to step down only apply to people the US, France, Britain and the Saudi Royal Family want out?

[Tx4obama]

18. I do believe that is was only Gaddafi that went on TV and SAID he was going to massacre a WHOLE CITY

of his people in Libya.
That is why everyone has told him to step down.

[Distant Observer]

23. Can we pause the lies for a moment. That was NOT what he said. FALSE PRETEXT even

from the perspective of Western analysts.

[Tx4obama]

30. I heard him on Al Jazzera. Perhaps you should watch AJ and not the Western folks. n/t

[rpannier]

94. So his crime was saying what he was going to do

Heck of a bench mark -- I guess quietly going about the slaughtering of people is the way to go.

As to everyone thinks so. Putin doesn't. And his criticism of Mendeleev's abstention has put Mendeleev on the defensive in Russia. He won't do that again.

[malaise]

58. +1,000

Some folks have different rules for Western supported dictators

[franzia99]

66. I'd like to see all tyrants lose their power.

[underpants]

24. I agree

anyone who wants to face the juggernaut that is the US military or the like NATO operations is just asking for it.

[quinnox]

26. So its his fault these missiles from NATO/US

killed these innocent children of his?

Interesting way to avoid responsibility. I'd say its more like delusional thinking.

[EFerrari]

67. Baloney. NATO launched those humanitarian missiles for democracy.

[jaxx]

13. I wonder if this is true.

:shrug:

[NotThisTime]

17. Indeed it is, shame on us and NATO. Can we call it war now?

[jaxx]

20. How do you know it's true?

The MSM also said Giffords was dead.

edit to add:

Qadaffi has lied about many things.

[FrenchieCat]

19. When one's knows one country has been getting bombed for weeks,

and one suspects one is a target, the least thing one could do
is make sure one's children and grandchildren are as
far away from one as possible....otherwise, they were being
used as human shields, far as I'm concerned.

I'm sorry for any innocent lives taken, but Ghadaffi knew what
was up. He and his family were not caught off guard.

[quinnox]

22. Interesting logic, so that makes it ok?

So if his family and children were there, they are legitimate targets to your mind?

[FrenchieCat]

28. War is hell......Ghadaffi should have stepped down long ago

So I hold Ghadaffi specifically responsible.

but this is real life in this harsh world......
What is happening in Lybia is not a small endeavor
that just started yesterday.

You can point your finger at whomever you choose,
and feel moral in doing so. I don't really care.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

39. Please.......

If you fucking cared so much about Humans,
your ass would be out making a difference,
instead of playing some kind of moral judge
on the fucking Internet.

[boston bean]

41. Which translates to you not giving a fuck playing some kind of opposite moral judgement

on the internet.

[quinnox]

52. not trying to be moral judge but wanted to explore

why you felt that way. Also, one thing, try to imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, and some crazed lunatic targeted our leader and family members. You would have a very different reaction I am sure. So just because it is our side that does it doesn't make it right in my opinion. If its wrong for someone to target our leaders, its wrong for us to do the same thing. My opinion.

[MadMaddie]

53. You have yet to talk about the civilians who have

been raped,murdered and disappeard over 40 years by this regime.

Why aren't you outraged about their lives living under the tryanny of Ghaddaffi? Do they not matter?

The civilians are uprising because they are sick of it.

[boston bean]

56. Listen up. It was our country that had a hand in targeting INNOCENTS!

And since it was our country, I am morally outraged over it, as you should be if you care for the children and innocents.

I have answered you down thread. Are you going to keep spamming saying I didn't speak to something you want me to?

Go harass someone else and stop making a fool of yourself.

[BOG PERSON]

37. uh

do you know the context of the phrase "war is hell"? i'm not sure if you do.

[FrenchieCat]

40. They are three words I strung together.

Is there a copyright on them? :eyes:

[SolutionisSolidarity]

75. You are a moron.

And an evil one at that. Disgusting monster.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

73. You certainly don't care for feeling, or being, morale.

You imperialist swine. I despise warmongers, no matter what Party they belong to.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

91. Yawn.....

[NNN0LHI]

43. Isn't that similar to how bin Laden explained away the innocents who were murdered on 9/11?

Think about for a minute.

Don

[FrenchieCat]

45. I don't talk to Bin Laden.

But comparing a surprise attack on the US
to a UN sanctioned action encouraged by Lybians themselves
and that has been very much public since
its onset....priceless!

[boston bean]

46. yes targeting a ghadaffi's son's house with his wife and children there is obviously AOK..

in your book maybe....

[Texasgal]

21. Whoa.

Why do I feel an Iraq situation coming on?

*sigh*

[emilyg]

25. I'm sorry about the children.

[Cali_Democrat]

27. .

.

[FrenchieCat]

35. You forgot....Fuck Qadaffi!

[boston bean]

47. you forgot..... Fuck the children! This is targeting innocents.

It was his son's house who was 29 years old. We killed his kids!

[MadMaddie]

50. Where has the outrage been about the civilian kids and

grandkids getting raped, murdered and cluster bombed by Ghadaffi?

[boston bean]

51. I hold outrage for both... YOU? nt

[MadMaddie]

62. Oh Boston...

Do you remember the Lockerbie terroist plane attack? Do you?

270 Total
http://www.victimsofpanamflight103.org/victims


<snip>
As revenge for the bombing of a Berlin nightclub where two U.S. personnel were killed, President Ronald Reagan ordered the bombing of Libya's capital Tripoli and the Libyan city of Benghazi in 1986. Some people think that bombing Pan Am Flight 103 was in retaliation for these bombings.
<snip>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-12552587

There ya go...but you know in your eyes it's okay for criminal like Ghadaffi to kill innocents and not expect blowback from his actions. He killed world citizens in the Lockerbie incident and the Berlin club bombing.

I guess no one is responsible for their actions and resulting reactions.

Again, it is tragic about the grandchildren and he should have gotten them to safety.

By the way it was a French Cruise missile that hit that compound.

[boston bean]

70. Of course I remember Lockerbie, do you remember the mastermind and how he was released from prison

to return to the terrible Gadaffi?

I doesn't matter whose missle it was. We are part of the coalition of the willing of targeting homes where they know innocent children sleep and play.

What part of this are you missing?

[EFerrari]

74. It's ironic that you defend this butchery and talk about not expecting blowback

in the same post.

[Aerows]

93. I highly recommend

that you look up CIA and Lockerbie, because the two things have MUCH in common. Much like the fact that MI6 has been in the country for over a year, which we know because they were CAUGHT.

It wouldn't be the first time we manufactured a revolution where there was a conveniently located resource that we wanted. It certainly had nothing to do with Qaddaffi threatening to nationalize the oil wells, and to change the oil contracts to something that was less profitable for big oil and more profitable for Libya. Certainly not.

[EFerrari]

69. That's right. Cluster bombs are only okay when they're on our side. n/t

[daleo]

32. Saving civilians by killing kids. n/t

[MadMaddie]

33. It is tragic about the grandchildren `

However; Ghadaffi had no compassion or thoughts of killing citizens and the children with his cluster bombs.

[BOG PERSON]

49. well, you know what they say

"war is hell"

[slipslidingaway]

60. How many cluster bombs were dropped on Lebanon?

What nations have not signed the treaty to ban these weapons?

What weapons were in this house that were aimed at civilians and how were they protected by this bombing?

[tekisui]

72. Hell, Obama has used cluster bombs on Yemeni civilians.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0607/US-cluster-bombs-in-Yemen-The-right-weapon-in-Al-Qaeda-fight

[slipslidingaway]

81. Thanks for the link ...

years ago when visiting the UN with our children the tour guide asked we pay attention to cluster bombs and what nations still support these horrendous weapons.

[AlabamaLibrul]

77. Very pointed questions that will go unanswered

For anybody wondering, the US never signed the Wellington Declaration, continuing a long tradition of wishing to disregard the rest of the civilized world's opinions on absolutely barbaric methods of waging war.

[slipslidingaway]

83. Cluster bombs are OK when used in communities in Lebanon ...

threads were most likely relegated to some dungeon, not all people are equal, now they are horrible weapons.

:(

[Puregonzo1188]

82. Israeli cluster bombs are ok. Like US cluster bombs or Sri Lankan bombs.

[slipslidingaway]

84. Maybe we should have some ads that tell people the difference ...

:shrug:

We could dispense with some of the Pharma ads and run these instead.

[AlabamaLibrul]

85. "Look for the Union label!"

Our last major export - tools of death and destruction.

[Mimosa]

86. ^ That's the truth ^

The US is number 1 in heavy arms manufacturing. We've got to have something left HERE to employ people.

[slipslidingaway]

87. And in the fine print, or pictures of someone running through a grassy field ...

'cluster bombs discriminate.' A great weapon when used by allies ... horrible when used by others.

[Terra Alta]

61. War never solves anything

sad about the children who were killed... hope this is all over soon.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

76. No doubt the grandchildren were just about to take off and violate the No Fly Zone.

Will we hear the standard issue "regrets" about "collateral damage"?

[AlabamaLibrul]

79. We already are

Never thought I'd see it from presumably anti-war folks...

[SoCalDem]

92. someone once said that "war is hell", and they were right

innocents always suffer in wartime.

when group A decides that group B needs to go, and group B says "no", lots of people will die..on both sides..young, old and inbetween:(