The Point of the Matter regarding the "Cause" of George Floyd's Death...

[msfiddlestix]

is that Officer Chauvin knowingly or not, snuffed out George Floyd's life.

It matters not a wit what George Floyd's "pre-existing" conditions were as regard past Covid exposure, hypertension or even if he consumed a truck full of drugs. None of those were the cause of his death on that day at that moment.

Period. Full. Stop.

A person could be stoned as hell, drunk as hell, or just a raving lunatic. If such a person was the victim of a gun shot in the head, or the heart, that person would be dead instantly. And that would be obviously considered the cause of death. No question.


It's the same analogy. The cause of his heart stopping was deprivation of oxygen effectuated by the officer kneeling with his full weight on the back Floyd's neck and all of the other factors where Floyd was rendered completely powerless to take in ANY oxygen.

Now maybe Chauvin didn't know. (I sincerely doubt it)

It was still a homicide.

Gun shot to the head or the heart to any human being, healthy, sick, or any other condition would still be cause of death.

I hope the prosecutors make that analogy to the jury in their closing, but also use it in questioning witnesses.

[FBaggins]

1. The challenge is proving that beyond reasonable doubt

To a unanimous jury

[msfiddlestix]

6. Right. I think the testimony yesterday nailed it though.

I just think the analogy I suggested might be the counter to the continued efforts by the defense to make drug overdose and pre-existing hypertension the cause of death, when any of those conditions are completely irrelevant in this case.

[FBaggins]

8. The error here is that they don't need to prove that health issues and drugs were the cause of death

They just need a few people on the jury to believe that there's a reasonable doubt whether he would have died without those influences. They don't need to even come close to proving that he would have died anyway.

And that's much tougher for the prosecution to overcome than most observers are crediting.

It's very different from your proposed scenario. Shooting someone in the head/heart will almost certainly kill them - regardless of other health factors. Reportedly... the jury has been shown several minutes of video of the victim saying that he can't breathe... before anyone knelt on him.

[Ms. Toad]

2. You're mingling two different concepts together.

Chauvin's acts must have caused the death (your analogy is fine for that) - BUT - separately, you have to prove his mental state (mens rea) when he acted.

It DOES matter what was in his mind (what you referred to as knowingly and dismissed twice as irrelevant based on being able to prove causation.)

[msfiddlestix]

5. yes indeed. but does it really matter at the end of the day?

I've heard it reported Prosecutors are not going to prove intent. Which brings up the question to my mind, are they trying him for involuntary manslaughter? I'm not sure. I'm wondering how the jury is thinking about that too.

[Ms. Toad]

9. They can't convict without proving Chauvin acted with the mens rea

associated with the crime. Prosecution is not a buffet, where you get to pick the elements of the crime to prove; you have to prove every single element. If you don't, the defense doesn't even have to put on a defense. So, yes it matters, unless you want him to go free

[tulipsandroses]

3. Expert Witness Testimony was powerful and pretty much said that. It was the knee to the neck

that cut off his oxygen. He testified that anyone, even a healthy person would have suffered the same fate if they were subjected to what happened to George Floyd. It was riveting testimony and he did it in a way that was not technical. It was masterful.

[msfiddlestix]

4. That testimony nailed it, very true.

So when the Defense (Nelson?) continue to to throw out that fundamental point aside making drugs the cause, and reaction to the crowd as the justification for their actions, it's just beyond pathetic and outrageous.

[Goodheart]

7. That's really the key question

Even if drugged or intoxicated would George Floyd have died without a knee on his neck? Extremely unlikely.

[msfiddlestix]

10. I believe the question was fully answered yesterday

By Dr Tobin. He nailed the facts leading to his death down to the nano second. Just stunning. Although I had no doubt, the Jury should be crystal clear on this fundamental point as well. There would be only one reason for any Juror to see it any other way.