If I were the girl in the pink jogging suit

[boston bean]

I would be grateful the police officer took the action.

The video I saw, the girl was winding up and moving forward to stab her in the side.

We have to be realistic. This was justified. What was one to do, let her stab another person. This is what the police are for. To stop potential murders.

And YES


There are many bad cops and unjustified shootings of black persons. And it is a terrible scourge on our humanity. This is just not one of those cases.

[samnsara]

1. i took gun safety classes from an ex cop who told the class that he would rather be confronted

..by a gunman than someone with a knife.

[JI7]

3. Why ?

[Devil Child]

5. Assailant with a knife can close a distance of 20 feet and inflict multiple wounds

Quicker than most can draw a holstered sidearm.

[BGBD]

8. 21 foot rule

[brush]

15. Both things being equal, I'd rather face a guy with a knife with me holding a gun.

He'd either drop it or get dropped.

[multigraincracker]

34. Looked like she was

rolling on the ground to me.

[Sucha NastyWoman]

52. Two girls ended up on the ground. The stabbed got up and went after the girl in pink with a knife.

That confused my husband too.

[Raine]

159. Yes, a third girl tried to stop the girl with the knife by knocking her down and wrestling her but

the girl with the knife got up and continued going after the girl in pink.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

72. People, especially untrained people, are usually really bad shots.

Someone close enough to stab you can do some real damage in the soft bits without much effort.

A stab in the vital organs or neck and you are screwed.

[Pachamama]

2. +10000

Completely agree

[Tesha]

4. There is shooting to stop someone...

and shooting to kill someone. The distinction matters.

[Thomas Hurt]

10. Only in 50s westerns where good guy shoots the gun out of the bad guy's hand

There is a distinction but reality doesn't allow that choice to be made.

[stopdiggin]

30. No, there really isn't

"disabling" shots are largely a public myth -- that are rarely employed (usually by accident) -- and never trained/instructed. The whys and wherefores of this have been clearly articulated numerous times -- but are not nearly as important as stamping out the notion that there are 'other options.' No. Lethal force is the last option. And you don't shoot with the intention of wounding or disabling. Plenty of people do survive -- but that's just plain happy circumstance.

[doc03]

38. It's not a cowboy where the good guy shoots a gun

out of someone's hand. If you have to use a gun you shoot to kill.

[CaptainTruth]

51. I agree. 1 shot will take someone down, but were 5 fired?

One reason why so many people are killed by police is because cops are unwilling or unable to differentiate between "eliminating the threat" & "eliminating the person."

They just default to "eliminating the person" even when it's not necessary to eliminate the threat. Some folks may be ok with that approach, but I'm not.

[Dan]

79. When you're shooting, like in this instance

I suspect that the finger kept pulling because the target kept moving.

[Escurumbele]

91. Then shoot on the legs, but killing should not be the end result, and the problem is that

it is the only result 99% of the time.

These guys are trained, supposedly, they are supposed to be good with a gun.

[Dan]

101. You shoot Center Mass....

Only on TV do they shoot for the legs, and if you think about it, that is a rather small target to hit especially moving.

The girl with the knife was in forward motion - shooting for the legs would have taken more time to aim and probably would have resulted (even if lucky enough to hit her legs) in the girl in pink suffering a server if not fatal knife wound.

[Celerity]

114. Half a second to stop this. Not enough time to do much other than shoot to stop via any means

justified shooting IMHO

[joshcryer]

6. Here's how you know if it was justified:

The police immediately release the body cam footage.

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

17. And no crump yelling on sidewalk

Sad but hard to argue with action taken.

[joshcryer]

32. One bullet probably would have sufficed.

Maybe two at most.

5? I don't know.

But once lethal force is required 1-20 doesn't matter under the eyes of the law.

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

35. I'm going to agree there

One shot probably would have ended it right there.

[yagotme]

133. "Probably?"

It's easy to armchair events, watching/rewinding video to point out minuscule/fraction of a second errors. Most training I have received, you shoot to stop. If person shot doesn't react/stop their actions, you shoot again. A knife thrust is measured in fractions of a second, along with trigger pulls. A bullet in the torso is not a magical switch to get someone to stop. Adrenaline, drugs, etc., can keep a dedicated individual going for a bit with their heart in pieces. Nervous system shots (spine, brain) are the ONLY instant shut offs. And the spine is a not-very-big target in the scheme of things.

And for those stating "well trained officer", well, some fire their weapons a few times a year for qualification. That's it. At a torso-sized target. A lot of cops aren't "gun-guys".

[joshcryer]

154. That's why I made my statement.

We can never know. Under the eyes of the law once lethal force is determined (and it was in this case) the entire mag could be unloaded. He ceased shooting as soon as she hit the ground. He had presumably 10 more rounds in his magazine.

Like I said, though, they would not have released this video this quickly if it wasn't so clear cut. People can say all the want about it being a child. This is what officers do every day in this country. Go to Police Activity on YouTube. There are a lot of people out there committing heinous crimes who go down in a blaze of glory or shooting at people or kidnapping people or attempting to kill people.

I want body cam footage to be released immediately after any police death incident. Period. Daniel Shaver may have had support if people knew about his incident before the event. They didn't even release the footage until after the trial. The police in that instance were protected under the veil of secrecy and the prosecutors went very easy on the officers. Had the public known there would have been more scrutiny. That's why Chauvin went down. It wasn't because he was guilty (he was), it was because public outcry forced the prosecution to make a true case against him, rather than some weak case which would be thrown out.

[StarfishSaver]

47. "Crump yelling on the sidewalk"

Last edited Wed Apr 21, 2021, 05:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Do you mean the lawyer who represents the families of people killed by police? The lawyer whose absence you claim shows this killing was justified, meaning he only gets involved in cases where the killing was unjustified?

What a nasty characterization.

True colors, though.

[ChubbyStar]

57. I can't believe that post about Crump is allowed to stand on DU

Disgusting.

[exboyfil]

68. As of a few hours ago he had a post out

With a falsehood (girl unarmed). At a minimum he should pull it down. I do agree the statement went too far though.

[boston bean]

76. Yep. Should be removed. It is disgusting.

[IrishAfricanAmerican]

70. Disgusting.

[Dr. Strange]

75. Not exactly absent.

He went on Twitter to say the cops shot an "unarmed" kid.
Literally said unarmed:

Link to tweet

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

77. This guy is a joke

Just riding and making money off tragic events.

[StarfishSaver]

89. People used to say that about MLK and Thurgood Marshall back in the day.

That's a common accusation launched at activists and lawyers who represent victims of civil rights abuses. Interesting to see the smear is alive and well today, even among Democrats.

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

96. Unarmed huh?

His words

[StarfishSaver]

100. Maybe that's the information he had at the time

He made an error.

It certainly didn't merit your hateful comments about him.

[mcar]

99. He's filing lawsuits on behalf of families and winning

That's why he's making money.

You forgot that part.

[StarfishSaver]

103. At least they didn't call him a "race pimp" - but there's still time.

[mcar]

107. Right? Like Black attorneys shouldn't make money off wrongful death lawsuits?

Crump and his team seem to me to zealously care for their clients, at least that was my impression during last night's presser. Are they making money off them? Sure. But they got, what, $27 million for the Floyd family?

That's their job and they do it quite well.

[mcar]

88. I had to read that post 3 times cuz I couldn't believe what I was seeing

That is some nasty crap.

[LanternWaste]

130. You've accurately illustrated your true character in no uncertain terms with this one.

And burned down the Benefit of a Doubt bridge.

[Volaris]

7. My ONLY counter would be as follows:

It's probably easier to sew shut an unskilled knife wound on a living victim than to bring a dying gunshot victim back to life in an emergency room. Other than that, I agree with the above poster that if you're within striking distance with a knife, a gun probably wont do much, unless you're the cop that's range-distance away. Honestly, I'm just glad this cop didn't hit what he WASNT shooting at.

My final over/under on this is that a cop stopped a potentially lethal assault. He did it by killing the assaulter (which isn't ideal, for sure), but its not the same as he pulled the knifer out of the car AFTER she had been 'contained', and THEN killed her.

[Sucha NastyWoman]

55. You are right. He was either very skilled or very lucky

That he only hit his intended target. How he didn’t hit the girl in pink, I don’t know.

[Sympthsical]

144. Not how that one works at all

I had an acquaintance (call him K) when I was a teenager. We knew each other in passing because we shared friends. His older brother had some beef with some other people over drugs, I believe. K goes to a birthday party three blocks from my parents' home. The brother's enemies came in, words were said in the stairwell. One stab in the abdomen.

K was dead before he got to the hospital.

There are all kinds of arteries and veins in the body that a single stab will do you. That's why I find these arguments so baffling. It's almost like the people making them have no medical knowledge at all. Nor do they seem to know how tasers work.

But they know what shoulda woulda coulda been done, and anyone who says otherwise has bad motives.

It's so damaging to credibility. The Right is having an absolute field day with this one. Why keep helping them?

[stillcool]

9. when I was a kid, in the house I lived..

the father would chase his wife around the house with a huge knife. The cops would be called, they'd take him outside, calm him down, and be on their way. Sometimes they got called back, and did a little rinse and repeat. Full grown, mean drunk of a man. Weird, huh? Not even a slap.

[boston bean]

11. This girl wielded back and forward quickly with the knife She was going to stab that girl.

[ProfessorGAC]

14. That's What I See, Too

It sure looks to me like she's prepping to strike.

[Treefrog]

18. Yes, and the neighbor agrees. A black man.

I’ve heard numerous others also say this was a justified shooting. I’ve no idea what was going on in that poor child’s mind that she found violence with a knife an answer, but this is a real problem.

[ProfessorGAC]

20. And, He Was Right There!

Not, like me, 350 miles away watching a video.
If he said it, that carries a lot of weight.

[SheltieLover]

54. Indeed!

Sad.

[Celerity]

116. yes

[LizBeth]

16. In thta description did they walk in to see him pin the wife against the wall and moving that knife

forward in a strike?

[stillcool]

21. I was like 4-5 years old

it happened often enough, but I don't know in what position the police found them. There were all boys in that house, and they could beat the living shit out of me no matter what I had in my hands. It's so weird how humans are now so incapable of anything but shooting to kill.

[LizBeth]

12. Having a conversation with myself earlier, I concluded the same.

[ratchiweenie]

13. I agree. He had to make a split second decision and he saved the other girl from being stabbed.

He was doing his job.

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

19. Did anyone notice the piece of crap that kicked the girl

On sidewalk?

[Pachamama]

24. I noticed and I want to know if that man w/ grey hoodie who kicked the girl down on ground has been

..arrested and.charged with assault and battery. He kicked her in the head so hard she went flying forward. I bet she was badly injured and she could have sustained a serious injury from that kick alone. But he seems to be a part of what ever was going on there that was so violent and out of control.

There will be more info coming soon and we will learn more.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

28. You mean "the accomplice"?

Yes, that was quite a kick to the head that sent her rolling. Then our brave accomplice danced back across the sidewalk and raised his hands. Who, me?

He participated in an assault that ended in death. He should be charged.

[stopdiggin]

33. Absolutely agree

I know the LE had other things on their hands that day -- but if they left the scene without that jerk in cuffs and back of the squad -- they really missed on that one. That's (a vicious) assault plain and simple. Tell your story to the judge.

[SheltieLover]

56. Absolutely!

[catsudon]

37. i bet you

he is probably the guy who instigated the whole thing.

[uponit7771]

22. A 15yr old girl would muscle out of a taser shot?! Come on people this is getting silly. The point

... is not rather it was justified or even legal so the point here is whether or not less than lethal could be used and for black folk its seldom not the most lethal.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

23. I would make a terrible cop I guess ...

My thought process would be:
1) I really have no idea what is going on here ... the girl trying to stab people might've been attacked and might have honestly felt she was defending herself,
2) The girl being stabbed at is not cornered, she's not on ground, the stabber is stumbling ... there's little leverage she has here for a deadly strike,
3) If the girl in pink is stabbed by this flailing person, she will easily twist away with one stab wound in her side, with a good chance to live, whereas if I pump the girl with the knife full of 4 or 5 bullets, she WILL DIE. And I don't know if she's actually the one who's been attacked and is defending herself.

I would've gone with the solution that has the best chance of both girls living, which would be to yell to everyone around to get the hell away, pointed my gun at the girl w/knife, and yelled until I got her attention.

Or tased her ass.

Guess I'd be a shitty cop.

[TwilightZone]

29. "the girl trying to stab people might've been attacked "

No one is going to show up and think that. They're going to see a girl with a knife trying to stab another girl.

You're making assertions based on what you know after the fact, not impressions made in the first few seconds on the scene.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

45. Oh yeah ... well how about if the stabber was a 16 y.o. white girl ...

And everyone else was black.

You think he doesn't hesitate to pump the white girl full of lead like he does here?

Cause I bet in THAT scenario ... it does cross the white cops mind.

[StarfishSaver]

48. +1000

[Hassin Bin Sober]

65. That's a real possibility.

And then we would rightfully say the cop let a white girl murder a black girl right in front of his eyes and didn’t stop it.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

78. He had readily available excuses ...

a) He just arrived seconds before and hadn't had time to fully analyze the scene, and
b) The proximity of the two women didn't allow for a clean shot on the target.

There's also a real possibility that the stabber we all assume was going to kill the other women no matter what if she hadn't been shot 4 times at point blank range ... would not have actually stabbed the other women, but was only threatening her.

[wryter2000]

66. Has it occurred to anyone that the cop might also have killed the girl in pink?

Bullets go astray. If the two girls were close enough together for one to make a lethal blow with a knife to the other, both of them might have been killed, especially if he was going to shoot that many bullets.

And what Starfishsaver has tried to get people to contemplate is...how would this have been handled if they were two white girls in an upper middle class suburb? Would the cop have gone in guns blazing, or would he have pulled his gun and ordered the girl with the knife to drop it? Or jumped on the girl with the knife's back to get it away from her? Why is the very first option to shoot to kill?

[ExciteBike66]

74. If it were my daughter, I would want the assailant shot before the stabbing...

Bullets do go astray, but I bet the girl in pink doesn't mind that the cop shot.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

80. She doesn't mind because she didn't get f***** hit ...

But she might've, pretty damn easily.

I think the case can be made that this was an overall poor decision. I won't slag the officer too much because it happened so fast, and nobody is perfect, and I don't know his mind.

But I really think a Tazer shot would've been more appropriate.

Or Dog Forbid, just really manning up and trying to disarm her. She's a 16 yo girl. Her back was to him.

But they're trained to never take unnecessary risks, so ... guess that'll never happen. At least not when the safer option is to shoot a person (or persons) of color instead.

IF a white man is dragging an officer by his truck and hitting him with a hammer, OTOH ...

[wryter2000]

83. If a white kid is in a darkened movie theater with a semi-automatic rifle

And he's already killed lots of people, cops can somehow get him out alive.

I'm with you that this is nothing like George Floyd. There had to be a snap decision made, but isn't that part of their training?

[LisaL]

106. What would you think of a cop that would allow that kid to kill more people,

just so cops can get the kid out alive?

[DENVERPOPS]

121. I'm pretty sure

the kid in the Movie Theatre stripped off all his gear, laid down his weapon, and then came walking out the back emergency exit with his hands in the air.......

As was the case in Columbine, the theatre shooting had massive amounts of confusion, lack of organization, and lack of scene management by Police, Fire, Paramedics which added to the situation.......

[ExciteBike66]

161. The cop was too far away to stop the knife without using some kind of weapon

Taser might have worked, it might not have worked.

[Lokee11]

129. I have asked myself what if the girl in pink was my daughter

My answer would be I am glad she is alive today.

If the officer would have shot the girl one time with the knife preventing my daughter from getting stabbed - My answer would be I am glad she is alive today.

If the officer would have been able to use the taser on the girl preventing my daughter from getting stabbed - My answer would be I am glad she is alive today.

If the officer would have ran and grabbed / tackled and "dis-knifed" the girl with the knife who had turned her back to him momentarily - My answer would be I am glad she is alive today.

I feel all these are options that could have been used also - yes even the officer physically "dis-knifing" the 16 year old girl. I mean she was not a frail little thing, but shouldn't every single officer be able to be able to physically remove a weapon from a 15 year old girl who has turned their back to them or should they not at least try to? And in a different context would that not have been an option that was pursued? I know that manually "dis-knifing" the girl would have put him in danger, but Sorry is that not part of the job? It is "To Protect and Serve" right? and at times does that not mean that they have to put themselves in danger and risk injury. Firefighters go into burning buildings and save people a lot from what I can gather (luckily never have had to witness it) and I am so glad though that they don't just spray the hoses when it is necessary to do that, because they may feel they are afraid they may get burned?

It should be - Don't shoot unless you have to - When you have to shoot, shoot to stop! Sometimes shoot to stop may mean, you have shoot to kill - most times it won't. Especially because MOST TIMES you won't have to shoot.

But that is not how it is, is it?

It seems to be for LEO's however, you can always shoot if you want to, and if you shoot, shoot to kill! And seems in certain situations they always want to shoot - 🤔 - wonder what situations those are?

Oh also, if Ma'Khia Bryant would have been my daughter, how would I feel if she was my daughter? I just don't think I would understand 4-5 shots -
one shot, I think I could understand,
being tasered I definitely would understand,
being tackled and roughed up and "dis-knifed" - OVERSTAND and hell she may want to be placed in jail instead of coming home and seeing me
but
Pow,
Pow,
Pow,
Pow,
that is just too many POWs for me to understand and from what I am reading here and there, I may be missing a POW!

✊!

[LisaL]

136. I don't think police are trained to "de-knife" someone by physically fighting

the suspect with a knife, because that's a sure way to get stabbed.

[Bettie]

86. Yeah, it does cross his mind

and he chooses a taser or a baton instead.

[FailureToCommunicate]

117. Absolutely, that cop would have assumed a white girl was defending herself...

And I'm pretty sure that the girl in pink would rather have a knife wound, than be shot dead by the cop trying to hit the other girl.

There were also people RIGHT behind the car that could have been hit by his bullets.

Police in other countries (Britain, Norway, etc) that don't carry guns deal with knife fights all the time, I'm sure.

The whole thing stinks.

[caber09]

170. FFS the girl in pink would rather be stabbed in neck and prob dead?

What is wrong with some of you wow...too much watching the good guys survive their wounds on tv shows or movies...from what has been seen so far this is a 100% justified shooting to save the other girls life

[greenjar_01]

176. That one of the main arguments has become "Listen, getting stabbed isn't that bad, after all"

tells you everything you need to know.

I thought I was done being shocked by the lengths people will go to as their argument collapses, but this is really a new one. The police officer should have simply allowed her to be stabbed with this massive kitchen knife! That's the fall back position now! It's less likely to have been lethal, this stabbing. That's seriously the case people are making. It's truly disturbing and unbelievable.

[caber09]

177. +10000

[Hugh_Lebowski]

178. Okay, well, how about this argument ..

a) every cop should have a taser as well as a firearm, and
b) I haven't read for sure if this cop had one, but if he DID, and he'd pulled up to a scene with a bunch of Caucasians hanging around, he may well have gotten out the taser instead of the gun (if for no other reason, the fact that the two women were close enough to each other to make shooting dangerous to multiple people), and hence
c) Tased the girl, which almost surely would've stopped anyone from dying.

I'm not really slagging the officer for it, just saying I think cops should be better at 'alternatives', such as Tasing or a baton. If he didn't either have one, I understand why he had to make the decision he made in that split second.

[Hoyt]

31. I appreciate your attempts to deescalate. But, if someone is standing over me with an ax cocked,

I hope another policeman is along for the ride.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

36. I'm specifically saying that the 'layout' of the scene is important ...

Last edited Wed Apr 21, 2021, 04:42 PM - Edit history (1)

The deceased was not standing over the other girl on the ground, nor did she have her cornered. If either of those had been the case, that would've made it different.

I know it was a split second thing and I don't the guy unequivocally messed up or anything. It's just not how I would've responded.

Were I a cop, I probably would put my life at risk in order to AVOID killing people way too often, and would have a very short career. And probably life.

[Hoyt]

40. I really didn't mean to sound critical. And if I were a policeman, I'd strive to be like majority

who have never fired their firearm in the field.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

46. Didn't take it that way Hoyt my man ...

You are always a voice of reason, and I try to be that too.

This is a tough deal ... ultimately what he didn't wasn't terrible, but I really think there were other reasonable options that could've left everyone alive. It's sad.

[snort]

94. He was a good aim with that pistol

a real crack shot. Wouldn't he have been just as good with a taser?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

113. We REALLY NEED an alternative to guns that works very close to as good

Similar weight, accuracy, and form factor ... but only rarely/accidentally kills people, not something DESIGNED TO kill people.

If tasers fail any of these, then mankind needs to work harder to find something WILL work to stop suspects ... without just filling them full of lead.

We flew a drone on freaking MARS. There's GOT to be a better way.

PHASERS SET TO STUN!!!

[StarfishSaver]

115. We have them. And they work very well

The problem is that too many police departments give the wrong people the power to determine when to use them.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

125. I mean what if we had something that holds like 12 shots ...

You have good accuracy to like 50 feet at least, and there's no wires attached to the projectiles.

And you handle it just like a gun, similar weight and firing style.

I'm imagining something similar to tasers, but with a gun-like form factor ... and the payload is something more like bullets, with the electrical charge inside the projectile not attached to wires. On impact, it shocks with enough force that pretty much anyone would go down.

Optimally, the longer you hold the trigger, the less charge is delivered, so you could effectively rapid fire for really serious, immediate threats and those would hit like ton of bricks. Or hold down the trigger for a second and release to shoot, and this delivers a less dangerous charge.

If something like this were made and given to all cops, we could make the case that firearms must be kept in the trunk of the cruiser for only the most serious emergencies.

[StarfishSaver]

126. Good idea - for when cops make a decision to use less than lethal force

But I don't think it will make much difference to cops who see Black and Brown people with heightened suspicion and fear and who are quick to jump straight to lethal force when encountering them. They will still pull their guns and shoot, knowing that plenty of their fellow white people will line up to defend their choice of action.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

128. For sure, what I'm saying is it's something effective enough to stop allowing them to carry guns

as a matter of course. They are kept in the trunk at most (and maybe not even all cops have them), and their use must be only in the case of extreme exigent circumstances.

Basically I want the whole fucking mindset that 'it's okay if cops murder citizens if they feel threatened' ... to drastically change.

Pipe dream, I know. But having a good enough alternative weapon available ... would make the case a lot simpler to make.

[caber09]

171. She had her against the car, geez come on

[stopdiggin]

39. reaching

you're willing to accept a stabbing taking place right in front of you -- rather than make a choice on lethal force ....

That's bending over backward too far. (my opinion)

yeah -- reluctantly -- if I'm pink suit, I'm kinda' hoping somebody else shows up to do the job.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

73. There's also the fact the even the slightest inaccuracy, given the proximity of the two

could've killed both the women. That bugs me too.

The whole situation says to me that a tazer would've been more appropriate.

Or Dog forbid, the cop creeps up behind her as she moves away, her back to him, towards the car, and kicks in the back of one of her knees so she falls on her ass. Then you have a moment to clear everyone else out, and put your gun in her face while she's on the ground.

That would've been a brave thing to do, I admit. But that's the kind of thing I'd like to see, personally. That's kind of cop I would be. Especially dealing with females I see in conflict, when there is not a gun involved. You can believe me or not, but I would. Of course, I'd probably die young because of my reticence to shoot people, esp. young women.

[stopdiggin]

81. I appreciate what you're trying to do (and say)

Sincerely. I don't happen to think it fits very well with the exigencies of this particular situation (my opinion). But, as an overall sentiment .... I get it.

[ExciteBike66]

64. This makes no sense

1) I really have no idea what is going on here ... the girl trying to stab people might've been attacked and might have honestly felt she was defending herself,

The stabber ran towards the girl in pink. If the stabber feared for her life, why was she trying to get closer to the person she "feared"?

It is impossible to read the stabber as trying to defend herself at the point where the police arrive. She might have defended herself before, but that cannot be a justification for trying to kill someone later when the danger to her has passed.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

111. You don't know that Bryant was trying to kill pink lady ...

Should could've been threatening her, telling pink lady to get the hell out of here, or she'd get hurt. In response the having been attacked by pink lady earlier.

You also don't know that Bryant was aware the police have arrived. That shit happened fast.

So, I disagree that it 'makes no sense'. It's probably not the #1 most likely explanation/outcome, but it's certainly possible.

I really just am sick of cops going in guns blazing when black folks are involved. This is nowhere near as bad as the Tamir Rice case, or George Floyd of course, but ... something ELSE, less lethal, really needs to be part of law enforcement's arsenal. Maybe they need much more powerful/reliable tasers? Maybe some kind of sound-based weapon ... I dunno. Something.

Too many people are getting killed by guns ... period.

[Jilly_in_VA]

119. This

And the cops haven't yet released the whole bodycam footage, just a CLIP. Whatever makes them look good.

[ExciteBike66]

162. This also doesn't make sense.

The girl with the knife was using deadly force, in front of a cop no less. The cop cannot just let it happen, on the off chance that she is just faking it. I wonder how you would feel if you were the one being attacked with a knife.

The question of whether the pink girl attacked her earlier is absolutely moot. The pink girl was not attacking her at the time, so it was not a case of self-defense by the girl with the knife.

[Dan]

82. I agree, you should not have been in Law Enforcement.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

143. Yes, that was my thesis from the start ;) (nt)

[Skittles]

92. that's the thing

cops are required to make VERY FAST DECISIONS

[True Dough]

166. Exactly. There wasn't enough time to

"de-escalate" or be the voice of reason in this situation. Cop arrives at the scene and within seconds someone is about to stab another person. Drastic action had to be taken.

[Scrivener7]

141. Yes. I wonder why tasers are never seen as an alternative in these kinds of cases.

[Hoyt]

25. Think it was "justified" based on what officer saw when he arrived. I am concerned that the other

two girls may have initiated things by ganging up on the girl shot minutes before. If that's true, those other girls need to be arrested for bullying or something.

But, when the policeman arrived, the girl that was killed had the knife and was a fraction of a second away from stabbing the lady in pink. Don't think the policeman had much choice. If they had both had knives, I wonder what would have happened.

[unblock]

26. maybe it's a fine distinction, but we'll never know if she actually was going to follow through

winding up and moving forward are certainly *threatening* and imminent strike, and that may well have been the intention and the result had the cop not shot her first.

but it's entirely possible to wind up and make like one is about to strike in order to threaten and scare the other person, without ever intending to actually go through with it.

now, one can certainly say that the shooting was justified either way and that i'm making a distinction without a difference; but personally, i think it's important to note what actually happened vs. what we are speculating may have happened otherwise.


what bothers me most is that while the situation certainly justified police intervention, it seems the intervention of choice is too often lethal use of guns. i would like to see more situations where police diffuse this sort of situation using riot shield, batons, pepper spray, taser, i don't know maybe tranquilizer darts, warning shots, bullhorn, i don't know.

it just seems to me guns shouldn't be the first intervention.

never mind *four* shots.


all in all, i'd like to think police should be able to resolve violent situations without just coming in and exerting overwhelming force. at times maybe there's no other way, and ok, maybe this was one of them. but it seems to happen far too often that overwhelming, lethal force is a first option rather than a last resort. especially when people of color are being "served and protected".

[stopdiggin]

41. point taken

but all of those other options apply when people are not actively employing lethal weapons against others.

[Jeebo]

44. Is the shift key on your computer broken?

Just wondering.

-- Ron

[Hugh_Lebowski]

53. my feelings EXACTLY unblock ...

and I like all lower-case, except the personal pronoun I

[Raine]

27. Totally agree. nt

[Jeebo]

42. That girl was flailing around on the ground ...

... at the cop's feet. How much of a threat was she to him or to anybody else from that position? I know the cops are saying that they don't train cops to aim for arms or legs or a shoulder, but in this case, I think that would have been more appropriate than what he did. He would have been unlikely to miss from that close range, and firing down toward the ground, he would not have been likely to hit any bystanders with a missed shot. That's what he should have done, in my humble opinion. Better yet, he should have tased her. Instead, he shot her -- how many times was it? -- four or five times. That sure seems like overkill to me. She was just a little girl. A hysterical, out-of-control, knife-wielding little girl, but still, a little girl.

I just read through this thread and it sounds like most of y'all have watched that video more closely than I have, so I admit I might have gotten some of it wrong. But in a general sense, I think we need to have police officers who go out of their way to take actions that have the LOWEST probability of somebody getting hurt. Instead, too many cops seem to be awfully trigger-happy -- especially when they're dealing with Black people. And I am sure almost everybody who posts here on DU would agree with me about that.

-- Ron

[superpatriotman]

43. Watch the full video and rewrite your post

nt

[Sucha NastyWoman]

58. There were two girls on the ground. The girl with the knife got back up and went after

The girl in the pink.

[AverageOldGuy]

50. I agree

I just watched the video on CNN in normal speed then slowed down.

The girl with the knife -- the one who was shot -- was chasing one girl who fell to the ground, apparently at the officer's feet -- the girl with the knife then turned and went after the girl in the pink logging suit. Pink jogging suit girl was lying against the hood of a car as the girl with the knife clearly was aiming to stab her.

No one knows what went on before the video started but there was no time for the officer to stop and sort that out.

Is it correct that this happened at some sort of a group home for kids with problems? Maybe it's not such a good idea to put together under one roof a bunch of kids with problems that may include aggression and a tendency to solve problems by fighting.

Regardless, it's heartbreaking but the cop did the right thing.

[SergeStorms]

60. Uh oh.

[ExciteBike66]

61. Agreed. This really is just a terrible hill for BLM to die on...

Would be nice to see the girl in pink on TV saying how nice it was to be alive.

[greenjar_01]

71. The current argument is that getting stabbed with a sizeable kitchen knife isn't that bad

Dogma is a helluva drug.

[48656c6c6f20]

62. Well I am glad the investigation is over

And the officer was exonerated. I must have missed it on the news. BTW what was under that arm covering? I am guessing a tattoo of pretty ponies right?

[ExciteBike66]

67. The video shows what it shows. If you know something we don't, feel free to tell!

[HipChick]

63. "black persons?"..

[ChubbyStar]

69. This OP is quite odd

Disturbing actually.

[HipChick]

112. Very disturbing...

As are other posts on this thread..

[Klaralven]

84. The cop should have called for a social worker to handle the situation

[LisaL]

87. If she is actively trying to stab someone, you think calling social worker is appropriate?

How long do you think it's going to take for a social worker to arrive?

[Klaralven]

93. She hadn't actually stabbed the girl in pink, so there was an opportunity to call

The cop should have at least allowed her to stab the girl in pink, so that the shooting would be clearly justified.

[LisaL]

95. I am assuming that's sarcasm?

NT

[Klaralven]

105. At the point in time the cop shot her, the assailant had not committed a serious felony

So the question is whether we permit cops discretion to use deadly force to prevent an anticipated murder.

If the cop had let her stab the girl in pink, then the assailant would have actually committed the serious felony of attempted murder.

If she thereafter attempted to continue stabbing the girl in pink, the cop would have then been fully justified in using deadly force.

Given the current climate of public opinion, this would have been the more prudent option for the cop.

[LisaL]

108. But not the best thing for the girl in pink.

NT

[Klaralven]

110. True, but no different from what would have happened if the cop showed up a little later

The normal function of the police is to draw the chalk outline and start the investigation.

[yagotme]

139. I believe the felony had been committed.

She had a weapon out, moving towards pink suit girl, moving her arm in a manner of stabbing someone. It would seem pink suit girl was in fear for her life. Felony done.

[Klaralven]

163. Until she stabs, it is misdemeanor Fifth Degree Assault

Once she stabs her it is First Degree Assault, a felony.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

164. There's no such thing as 5th degree misdemeanor in OH.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/ohio-misdemeanor-crimes-class-and-sentences.htm
Ohio divides misdemeanors into five classes: first, second, third, and fourth degree, as well as minor misdemeanors.

And that certainly wasn't a minor misdemeanor, like an expired parking meter.

Ohio has 5th degree felonies, if that's what you meant.

[Klaralven]

165. Minnesota law

609.224 ASSAULT IN THE FIFTH DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Misdemeanor. Whoever does any of the following commits an assault and is guilty of a misdemeanor:
(1) commits an act with intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death; or

(2) intentionally inflicts or attempts to inflict bodily harm upon another.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.224

Since there is no Uniform Criminal Code, all this varies from state to state.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

168. I suspect this would apply in MN instead...

... since it involved a deadly weapon. (Under Sub. 1 before any harm was inflicted.)

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.222
----------
609.222 ASSAULT IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
§Subdivision 1.Dangerous weapon. Whoever assaults another with a dangerous weapon may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or to payment of a fine of not more than $14,000, or both.
Subd. 2.Dangerous weapon; substantial bodily harm. Whoever assaults another with a dangerous weapon and inflicts substantial bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both.
----------

The laws are indeed vastly different in various states. Only Ohio and Maine have laws that can charge someone with domestic violence if someone else FEELS threatened, for example. No real evidence needed.

[Sympthsical]

147. Do you think social workers can teleport into situations?

And once they've magically arrived, made an entire de-escalating argument in the half a second between the raised knife and the swing?

As a former social worker, this situation is exactly where I want a cop present and ready for the use of force.

Person swinging a knife around? Newp. I was never paid that much.

[Escurumbele]

85. You shoot her on the arm, the leg, you disable her for the time being

Murder should never be the end result unless the other person does have a gun and is trying to kill you, and even then, train them to shoot with precision so they don't have to kill.

The bigger problem in my view is that police only shoot to kill, no matter what the situation is, they shoot to kill.

[LisaL]

90. The reason that police don't shoot someone in arm or leg, is because a small target is easy to miss,

and then the bullets are going to end up in bystanders.

[Dave Starsky]

160. There are major arteries that go into arms and legs, too.

You can bleed out and die from that just as well.

The "shoot the bad guy in the arm or leg" thing is strictly a cheesy narrative device employed by countless bad TV detective shows and westerns.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

137. You've been watching to many movies,

a hit on the leg can kill someone, especially if hit in the Femoral Artery, which will cause bleed out in seconds.

[Buns_of_Fire]

140. They're trained to aim for center mass. If a weapon has to be drawn,

sometimes there's not time to practice marksmanship. The immediate objective is to neutralize the threat, which is where you rely on the judgement of the officer.

[Raine]

145. That's harder and more dangerous

trying to hit a smaller moving target, probably would end up hitting bystanders. I used to think wounding was the way to go but after someone explainied what could happen I realized how much more dangerous that would be. 🤔

[DenaliDemocrat]

97. This was justified

And pretending it wasn’t doesn’t help the cause. I feel sorry for the cop who had to do this

[StarfishSaver]

102. Interesting - the Columbus police, mayor, and body doing the investigating haven't concluded that

Yet you are perfectly certain of that conclusion.

But your sympathy for the cop who did the shooting - a shooting that has yet to be determined to be justified - while you seem to have no concern for the child he shot is noted.

As for "helping the cause," I have a feeling your interest in the cause isn't quite what you think it is.

[LisaL]

104. Do you really think they will reach a different conclusion?

Police are allowed to use deadly for in defense of someone's life.

[StarfishSaver]

109. I don't know. That's the point of the investigation

[DenaliDemocrat]

155. You sure think a lot

But I can trust my own eyes

[DenaliDemocrat]

98. This was justified

And pretending it wasn’t doesn’t help the cause. I feel sorry for the cop who had to do this

[FailureToCommunicate]

123. I agree with StarfishSaver, posting twice doesn't make jumping to conclusions

any more justified.

Let's see what further investigating finds.

[Sympthsical]

148. The whole reason this is news is because people jumped to wrong conclusions

I mean, this cop was smeared to hell and back before the video came out. Words like "murder" and "unarmed" and a whole array of crap.

Once the video's out, and the people running with the Narrative are painfully, dreadfully proven wrong, now it's all, "Well, hold on. Let's wait for an investigation . . ."

L.O.L.

Please. And all that waiting isn't preventing more running around, pushing the Narrative, and making the most ridiculous claims that defy all medical knowledge and several laws of physics. And of course, all the little barely disguised intimations that if you don't agree with the Narrative, you may have a problem with race.

It's obnoxious and transparent and has been going on since yesterday.

Dogma is a hell of a drug.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

150. +100. nt

[Demsrule86]

118. I agree completely.

[MVP Kamala]

120. The problem is that they always figure out how to stop

White suspects without killing them. Mass shooters, racists, insurrectionists...they give them the excuse of having a bad day and sometimes take them to BK before the police station

[MVP Kamala]

131. 60% of the country is White and 13% is Black so this

stat is irrelevant. If she was a 16 year old White girl, they would’ve found a way to de-escalate it. Don’t believe me....look at the 6 hours that the insurrectionists spent in the Capitol trying to find and murder the VP

[Sympthsical]

149. And yet that's not what you said.

Allow me a quote.

"The problem is that they always figure out how to stop white suspects without killing them."

A lot of white people are killed by cops. You have literally no factual basis to make the claims you're making. The only fact we have is that black people are disproportionately killed by cops. We know this for a fact.

Here are the stats. They're accessible. Why say such blatantly untrue things?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

[MarineCombatEngineer]

151. Because it fits their agenda. nt

[Tommymac]

146. Link Please.

Thanks.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

158. The 2019 Dayton OH shooter had over 30 bullet holes...

Last edited Thu Apr 22, 2021, 02:53 AM - Edit history (1)

... in him from the local police, and he was white.

The smaller-caliber police gunfire can be heard around the 20-second mark of this video:

EDIT: With the cops around here, there's no way that I'd "open carry" a weapon even if it's permitted by law in Ohio now. (I wouldn't want to do it anyway.) What if someone falsely reported an active shooter? They could quickly turn you into Swiss cheese if they get the wrong idea.

[Captain Stern]

122. I agree.

She (the person in the pink) is a lot better off now, than if the cop hadn't shot her attacker. What sucks is that stuff like this happens at all.

Based only on the video that I've seen, I don't think the cop did the wrong thing by shooting the person with a knife that was trying to kill someone.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

127. More than 1 shot likely required in most cases

Someone said "disabling" shots are not trained for.

In the same way, perhaps, 'STOPPING' is trained.

One shot could miss or fail to stop.
You wouldn't want to shoot 1 shot and then wait and see if it had worked.

It seems to me that they are trained to fire multiple shots.

[RegularJam]

132. Being justified according to today's standards...

Does not mean it was right or necessary. Using the word justified does mean accepted. That leads to a stagnant mindset on an issue.

The shooting was not necessary. Should not have happened. Yet I’m not faulting the officer. Those thoughts can all live together without fallacy or hypocrisy.

[LisaL]

135. I guess that depends on what necessary is.

Is it necessary to make sure she doesn't stab another girl?

[RegularJam]

138. It's necessary to make an attempt to stop it.

That does not mean the necessary option was to kill.

[LisaL]

142. How do you stop it, if you are at some distance, and attack is in progress?

NT

[DashOneBravo]

134. K&R

[MarineCombatEngineer]

152. Thank you boston bean!!!!

[DallasNE]

153. Police Video Stops About 2-3 Seconds Too Soon

I saw another still where someone had grabber her arm, apparently to wrestle the knife away. Or was the photo deceiving? The mom is on record saying she dropped the knife shortly before she was shot. We need to see that next 2-3 seconds to really know what happened. The camera angle may even be bad for seeing if she still had the knife in her hand as she started to fall from being hit by gunfire. What we have so far is actually inconclusive, though it looks very bad.

[moondust]

156. Weird scene at end of video.

The victim is lying motionless on the ground. Two other policemen approach her cautiously from the street side while the shooter continues to point the gun at the victim. The approaching officers watch the shooter as if they fear he might fire more rounds. One of them is looking at the shooter like "WTF are you doing man?" I got the impression from their behavior that they didn't think this was necessary and they didn't trust the shooter.

[Nixie]

157. Yes, it was good that cop saved the black woman from

being stabbed to death. That knife looked like it was ready to be plunged in her flesh, and that was a big knife. What an utterly frightening and horrific scene.

[True Dough]

167. Glad you started this thread, boston bean

Last edited Fri Apr 23, 2021, 11:58 AM - Edit history (1)

These conversations need to be had here, and elsewhere. It's most definitely a tragic situation that occurred, but these sorts of incidents involve many variables and some people immediately jump to "Oh no, another unjustified shooting. Cops evil."

There are too many evil cops. I've posted enough about them to make my fingers calloused. Something seriously needs to change in their approach and their training.

But in an instance like the one in your OP, there was too little time to sort out who's who and what's what. We were maybe half a second from witnessing a fairly large knife plunge into the body of another human being. It appears that that police officer's drastic action was within reason. That's where I'm at right now, anyway. If an investigation can prove the officer knew something beyond the obvious, I'm all ears.

[Pachamama]

179. +10000

Completely agree

[Chakaconcarne]

169. Thanks... I fully agree..

I'm kinda getting weary of all of the default cop disparagement around here without people having all the information.

Not all cops are bad and unless you are one...... lots of people going bananas out there and the police are on the front lines.

[caber09]

172. +1 Agreed..and the GOPs use of this disparagement against us helped us lose alot of seats in Nov

[Nixie]

173. Exactly. This involves two black women, so the whole

police bias goes out the window no matter how much it is pushed and it is intellectually dishonest. Just looking at the video shows that.

Of course police were justified in stopping a horrific murder.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

174. +100. nt

[raccoon]

175. Wish I could rec this more than once. Nt