Religious exemption to the vaccine...how hard is it to get one?

[Xolodno]

Curious to find out.

Someone I know was asking about it on facebook (obviously I won't be visiting them anytime soon) since they work at a large corporation. And I just don't see the religious text grounds for that excuse.

Particularly when you have Numbers 21:6-9, Sirach 38 and of course Colossians 4:14 (yes, Apostle Luke was a Physician).

Granted you can take any verse out of context, but I just don't see how you can make a solid case for not getting the vaccine. A "Christian Scientist" probably could since they have a well established position. But other than that...I just don't get it.

Edit: Adding the verses as requested.

Numbers 21
[6] Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.
[7] And the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
[8] And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live."
[9] So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

Sirach 38
[1] Honor the physician with the honor due him,
according to your need of
him, for the Lord created him;
[2] for healing comes from the Most High,
and he will receive a gift from the king.
[3] The skill of the physician lifts up his head,
and in the presence of great men he is admired.
[4] The Lord created medicines from the earth,
and a sensible man will not despise them.

Colossians 4:14
[14] Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you.

[Biophilic]

1. I'm with you. I'd really like to see what a religous exemption looks like. nt

[AZSkiffyGeek]

2. I agree about Christian Scientists

But I think Evangelicals and some Catholics are using the idea that the vaccine was made from aborted fetuses to justify it. Of course that's bullshit, but that's where they're coming from, I think.

[maxsolomon]

5. The Testing Protocols used Stem Cell lines derived from decades-old fetuses.

That's the source of the objection. Of course, those same testing protocols were used for common OTC medicines.

A hospital in AR made their Religious-Objection employees attest that they don't use any products tested under those protocols. The list includes acetaminophen, albuterol, aspirin, ibuprofen, Tylenol, Pepto Bismol, Tums, Lipitor, Senokot, Motrin, Maalox, Ex-Lax, Benadryl, Sudafed, Preparation H, Claritin, Prilosec, and Zoloft.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210918/some-medications-also-tied-to-religious-vaccine-exemption

The WSU Football Coach, Nick Rolovich, tried a Religious Exemption and got rejected by a blind review panel. He got fired from his 3 million/year job rather than vax. Fuck 'em.

[The Magistrate]

13. Now That Is Cold, Sir

I like it. I like it a lot....

[LiberalFighter]

19. Good way to challenge.

I would also go with if they have received any vaccine, treatment or other medical as an adult.

[JohnSJ]

3. Maybe a Christian scientist could, but I don't se how anyone who has a history of vaccinations can

make that argument

[lagomorph777]

4. Maybe you could provide the actual quotes?

Most of us don't have the bible memorized.

[Xolodno]

6. Added. nt

[lagomorph777]

7. TY

The first quote is pretty wacky but the wacky bits (such as Ezekiel) are my favorites.

The other two are pretty solid!

[Xolodno]

20. I liken the Numbers bit to the old joke..

...where a person is in a flood and both a boat and helicopter come by to help, but waves them off saying God will rescue him. He drowns. Once in heaven he asks why he wasn't saved and is told "sent you a boat and a helicopter, what happened?

I like to use these verses from Ezekiel whenever I hear about Sodom and Gomorrah:

16

[49] Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.
[50] They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it.

[lagomorph777]

21. Sodom and Gomorrah may have been an actual thing.

There is some evidence for an impact event in that region at about the right time frame.

[Xolodno]

31. Yes,

I read about that. An event like that is obviously going to get recorded somehow. Its why I don't dismiss any myths, Abrahamic religion or not, there could be an underlying reason for it.

[NullTuples]

8. The joy of "religious liberty" / exemptions is that there is no proof.

There's no need to provide citations from primary texts, as each sect - sometimes each individual - has their own interpretation. Some religions don't even have a primary text. All claim to be divinely inspired to their "truth".

Religious beliefs are an opinion. A personal one, perhaps. Maybe even sincere. They are literally irrational (ie, cannot be proven).

But sometimes they are also transitory, and strangely match the emotional needs of the believer.

And that's why they should never, ever be used as a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card when it comes to imposing on the liberty of others.

[Xolodno]

18. Exactly. Faith is belief in something that can't be proven.

Why many sit there and try to prove it, fails me, but that's another argument.

A company has a duty to the rest of its employee's for a safe working environment. It won't be long now before they start (or already have) bringing office workers back in. If someone is running around the floor with Covid and another person who couldn't get the vaccine due to medical issues or a breakthrough occurrence occurs...company is going to get sued for an unsafe environment.

So really, the company will have to make everyone sign a hold harmless agreement for that religious exception (and people start seeking employment elsewhere), accommodate a work from home situation or just say, "well, bye."

So the scrambling I see to secure a religious exemption doesn't seem like it would work in the first place. And then of course, how can you get a flu shot, take ibuprofen, etc. but claim this one shot is a no.

[NullTuples]

33. I agree, except that last bit. There is no requirement for religious consistency, at all.

My religion might say I can eat beef, pork or chicken meat...except on Fridays during a yearly 40-day period which does not include Sundays, starting the Sunday that follows the first full moon after March 21, the vernal (spring) equinox.

Or it might say that I can eat bread but if I do, I must wash my hands afterward. Or say a long blessing; either will do.

It might have been founded with the concept of women as equals but now says that we are clearly...not, and I must act accordingly, and hide my skin and weigh my court testimony as half that of a man.

Or it may tell me that I can get vaccinations...except that one that happens to be politically charged at this moment in time. Because it might have used fetal cells from the same ancient cell lines as the other vaccinations.

[CJW]

9. Religious exemption to the vaccine...how hard is it to get one?

The Pope had already made a video of himself getting the vaccine, so RCs have no religious exemption excuse.

[NullTuples]

10. Not true. The Pope does not set Canon.

Now, we could go down the rabbit hole of what does Canon really say about vaccines, and it could be fun but in the end it wouldn't matter.

Religious exemptions by their very nature depend on something which cannot be proven.

And normally, that's called an "opinion".

[CJW]

12. The Pope does not set Canon.

Pope just showing that he personally got vaxxed. That is all.

[NullTuples]

15. And here in America, many Bishops & priests beneath them push a very different message

They treat the Pope the way we treat a President from the opposing party; soon enough he'll be gone so ignore him and stay faithful.

The Pope is as much a political position within the Church as it is a religious leader position to the rest of the world.

And for the last 18 years or so, the American Bishops have been moving further and further to the right, to the point of challenging the government to prosecute them for campaigning from the pulpit for specific candidates.

[YessirAtsaFact]

11. Don't know but it should be impossible

It's nonsense. Love thy brother, right?

[AJT]

14. Exemptions have a lot of wiggle room.

William A. FRAZEE, Appellant, v. ILLINOIS DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT SECURITY et al.
1989

Undoubtedly, membership in an organized religious denomination, especially one with a specific tenet forbidding members to work on Sunday, would simplify the problem of identifying sincerely held religious beliefs, but we reject the notion that to claim the protection of the Free Exercise Clause, one must be responding to the commands of a particular religious organization. Here, Frazee's refusal was based on a sincerely held religious belief. Under our cases, he was entitled to invoke First Amendment protection.

[Xolodno]

24. Flip side...

...when I used to work for Disneyland, they had grooming standards (no facial hair). Every so often you would hear about an orthodox Jew suing to be allowed to have a beard. They lost every single time.

Of course, with a lot of Trump appointed judges...who knows.

[PXR-5]

16. Eazy

Here in NC any preacher will do it for a donation.

In fact we have a friend who is a new age preacher at a liberal church, he already has written several exemptions.

[pamdb]

17. stupid people

So if these idiots (and I include christian scientists among them) get Covid, they should not
be allowed to go to the hospital. Let their religion or their big book cure them. I am so sick of
religion and christians I could scream.

[lagomorph777]

23. Let them go to a religious hospital.

One that actually practices what they preach.

Good luck finding one, and heaven help you if you do.

[Hortensis]

22. HR departments establish and apply guidelines to decide whether

an exemption should be granted, same guidelines needed for all. The EEOC leans toward the individual's rights, rather than the employer's, which influences employers' determinations of sincere religious belief.

Just quoting personal beliefs, including pointing to a Bible verse, has been tried in various judicial jurisdictions and generally not been successful. But, “Courts really struggle in rejecting claims for exemption on the grounds that they aren’t genuinely religious. The nature of religious belief is that you can have belief that no one on the outside can understand.”

Like J. Witnesses, CS supports vaccination requirements for public health reasons and ALSO the right of their members to decide this issue for themselves.

For more than a century, our denomination has counseled respect for public health authorities and conscientious obedience to the laws of the land, including those requiring vaccination. Christian Scientists report suspected communicable disease, obey quarantines, and strive to cooperate with measures considered necessary by public health officials. We see this as a matter of basic Golden Rule ethics and New Testament love.

As for the issue of exemptions for vaccination in the law, Christian Scientists’ perspective on this issue may be unique. In the past, many public officials have been broadly supportive of exemptions when these have not been considered a danger to the wider community. In more recent years, public health concerns relating to vaccinations have risen as exemptions from them have been claimed by larger numbers. Christian Scientists recognize the seriousness of these concerns.

Most of our church members normally rely on prayer for healing. It’s a deeply considered spiritual practice and way of life that has meant a lot to us over the years. So we’ve appreciated vaccination exemptions and sought to use them conscientiously and responsibly, when they have been granted.

On the other hand, our practice isn’t a dogmatic thing. Church members are free to make their own choices on all life-decisions, in obedience to the law, including whether or not to vaccinate. These aren’t decisions imposed by their church.

[Xolodno]

26. Heh.

That was clear as mud.

[Hortensis]

28. :) Exactly. Reportly a lot of cases are going to be hitting the courts,

but I'm guessing we're at most one even more lethal disease away from having final consensus firmly in favor of public health.

U.S. deaths from Covid are about 227 per 100,000 people. The CDC estimate of well over 800,000 "excess deaths" because we spread instead of controlled it is dreadful, but there are a lot of diseases out there that could make this one look like a bad cold season. And kill children in large numbers.

All judges who'll be hearing these cases have to know more are inevitable, and before long too.

[gratuitous]

25. The authorities seem to be taking a dim view

I've been peripherally involved with counseling young men who are seeking conscientious objector status in connection with registering for the military. They are told to make a record of their spiritual journey: Where they attended church, the names of any influential pastors or lay leaders, documenting their emerging conscience against violence, and so forth. Draft boards (yes, they're still meeting) take a dim view of granting CO status, and even the most conscientious of objectors are subject to a lot of scrutiny.

The public health folks seem to be taking a similar line for folks who've had a sudden conversion to vaccine avoidance. If it's good enough for the pacifists, it's good enough for the folks who are trying their level best to become viral vectors.

[Xolodno]

29. Thanks!

Familiar with the draft boards.

My father got CO status during the Vietnam war. Had to work at a hospital instead, which he was perfectly fine with. The Minister who married my wife and I was in prison during WWII, his predecessor was in prison during WWI for refusing the draft. And were content with it, they were not expecting to do the bone spurs routine and walk free. Knew full well, they would end up in prison.

Of course those asking for a religious exemption are also TFG humpers. Showing pictures of themselves at a gun range on facebook and me shaking my head. Even after we had people from the Selective Service speak to our community about the process.

But I think its good they are taking a hard line. I think many are just trying to save their job by using and abusing their religion...and good luck on seeing them on Sunday.

[3catwoman3]

27. At the pediatric office from which I retired...

...in March, it was not hard at all. Parents had to sign a Refusal to Vaccinate form, which had a few different reasons - past bad reaction/ allergy to an ingredients/ immune system problem. And of course, religious objection. All a parent had to do was check a box. For those who checked the religious exemption box, that was it - no questions asked/ no justification needed. I often longed to be able to ask, "Exactly what is it that your religion specifically says about immunizations," but I knew it was pointless. If someone does not want to be enlightened, nothing will move them.

It was my gut feeling that most of the parents who chose this "reason" did so because they knew they could get away with it. I wouldn't be surprised if half of them didn't go to any church of any kind.

The practice no longer accepts new families who do not vaccinate, and is in the process of weeding out, if you will, families who have not vaccinated. They are advised that the physicians believe in the effectiveness and safety of immunization, and if they do not, they need to find a practice whose philosophy is more in keeping with their own.

Many anti-vaxxers home school, at least in our patient population.

[Xolodno]

32. I think the "weed out" portion is telling.

Even with a religious exemption, you are going to be "weed out". I work from home now, but even then, once Covid restrictions end, I have to fly into the office once every quarter for a week. If I didn't get the shot (for the record, got my booster the other day), then I probably won't be allowed to do that. Which is going to suck for your chances at promotion, bonus, raise, etc.

And I could easily see at review time, getting a bad employee assessment.

[48656c6c6f20]

30. So golden calf and gods pissed

Bit Fiery serpents are cool? Fuck It I am sticking with my spaghetti monster.