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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI cannot be the only person here that took a course on Nazi Germanys' rise......
Last edited Fri Nov 5, 2021, 11:52 PM - Edit history (1)
It was the 80's for me - NMSU.
I chose it as an elective because my because my fiance was Jewish.
It tore my heart out, and it changed my entire world-view. ONE class changed my life.
I have never been he same since because I was exposed to HISTORY.
I do not know what to say here - It just hurts soooo much that my country is mirroring what I know is EVIL.
Wounded Bear
(58,797 posts)they follow the same strategy and tactics. The only thing that changes is the tools they use.
Yeah, the repub party has gone pretty much full on fascist/nazi.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)Wounded Bear
(58,797 posts)I don't speak Algonquin.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)Wounded Bear
(58,797 posts)Much wealth and depth in Native American folklore and wisdom.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)Just_Vote_Dem
(2,820 posts)I took a class called World War 2-Focus on the Holocaust with films. We saw and discussed Patton, The Sorrow and the Pity, and other films. We saw the documentary about the liberation of the camps that basically cleared out the room. I had nightmares for a while after seeing that.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)I wussed out - it was so bad i was puking between classes.
Just_Vote_Dem
(2,820 posts)You were a human witnessing inhumanity. Entirely understandable
unblock
(52,510 posts)And yes, the parallels to the Republican Party are striking.
What's infuriating is that the media and most others think of the nazis as so cartoonishly evil that they can't recognize the obvious parallels. Too many people think they can't be that evil until 6 million innocents are dead.
It never occurs to them that hitler became a dictator first, and only afterwards started the genocide. The early nazis sounded very, very much like today's republicans. Angry, resentful, entitled, tribal, blaming other groups within their own country, and displaying an enjoyment of violence.
They lack any form of self-restraint. It's up to the rest of us to somehow stop them from going down a similar road. Because they sure as hell don't know where any brake pedal is, and they'd have no interest in using it even if they could find it.
ms liberty
(8,630 posts)brer cat
(24,665 posts)uponit7771
(90,371 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)alittlelark
(18,891 posts)Over and over and over,
Cuz we r in a bad place......
unblock
(52,510 posts)Worked well for me personally, but I certainly hope America's path doesn't require babies to be smuggled out of the country as the only hope for survival....
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)Escaping and surviving is GOLDEN..
unblock
(52,510 posts)Disturbingly, that's the attitude that got a big chunk of my family sent off never to be heard from again.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)Septua
(2,268 posts)..the "parallels" are what the Republicans have wanted for a long time. Then, Trump came along and showed 'em they could make it happen.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)mountain grammy
(26,676 posts)I_UndergroundPanther
(12,511 posts)But my father was a ww2 vet. He told me about it,I read books about it ,he gave me nightmares about it .
When I see the fascists in this country mirroring hitlers playbook the nightmares come back.
And they have been happening ever since tfg was running..
Its changing here.
I am scared,but pissed off even more. I dont like the right wing,its narcissistic and souless,corrupted and has no moral compass
When monsters rule vulnerable people,people with morals, people who care,artists that create and scholars that teach the truth.. all die. Just like in the dark ages it is ..you..convert or die.
I for one do not bow to anyone else. I am anti authoritarian to my core.
I feel like a dead man walking.
atreides1
(16,123 posts)I never took a course...I did read William Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", as well as other books on the subject!
I have a serious interest in history that isn't white washed...
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)My coursework was ALL factual and in many books........
It made me HURT.
stage left
(2,967 posts)I also read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. Painful, but we must look at history with open eyes.
triron
(22,031 posts)Septua
(2,268 posts)"Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda...all that matters is propaganda."
Remind you of any particular individual or group of individuals?
StClone
(11,694 posts)I took a class of "Propaganda Analysis" as an elective and it opened my eyes to propaganda use all around us; how pushing the right buttons, at the right time, of the right people, and make them believe lies and incite the unthinkable.
Blaukraut
(5,695 posts)I'm a German expat. My grandmother was Jewish. She married my grandfather and converted to Christianity. (lutheran protestant, to be exact). My grandfather was drafted at 40 yrs old to fight in WW2 in Germany. While he was away at war, my grandmother and her children (my mom, aunt and uncle) were harassed. My mom had a sign next to her school desk that said 'beware of the mixed race children'. My grandmother did not receive food rations because she was not 'arian'. Two of her sisters were taken away in the middle of the night. Months later, the family was notified that they died from 'heart failure' at Theresienstadt and Bergen Belsen, respectively.
Meanwhile, my grandfather's best friend was a forest master and had, out of necessity, joined the 'party' in Nazi Germany. (anyone working for the state had to be a party member). This man visited my grandmother and her kids once a week, making sure they weren't mistreated (too badly) as a favor to his best friend who was at the front, fighting a war he never asked to fight. (my grandmother served as his character witness during his denazification trial)
I grew up inundated with these stories. In my home. (my mom had tales to tell that would give you whiplash, because they were told from two sides of one child's coin) In my school. (German schools teach the truth of the holocaust still).
I heard stories about Kristallnacht in our own little village, about a poor villager getting his first pair of boots as a part of the brownshirts uniforms....and many more. My mom is dead now, but I wish she had shared so much more of what she remembered.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)There are news media ppl that frequent this site,
Blaukraut
(5,695 posts)alittlelark
(18,891 posts)Sertiusly
uponit7771
(90,371 posts)... when my mother told be about why we were there.
The German people were so hospitable, I couldn't IMAGINE why they supported Hitler and for the most part they didn't !!
I went on a life long research to see why such people would support such an asshole and we are mirroring too many steps ... too many.
Damn
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)are becoming aware of similarity. Hope it's no longer very uncommon. Not so long ago throwing the word Nazis around was considered, and mostly was, inappropriate, same for the word fascist. We still see articles trying to argue that the Republicans can't be evolving that direction because fascism was strictly an early 20th century European phenom, but now there's a constant flow discussing the clear development of RW authoritarianism and growing resemblances to outright fascism.
I married a Jew, and though still very young knew what they were when I saw concentration camp tattoos on some of my MIL's friends. But I made the mistake of reading everything I could find about Nazi Germany and the Holocaust in the local library -- West Hollywood, took me a long time to run through. Then I didn't read anything more for years and years, and never took one class that covered anything about it in college.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 5, 2021, 11:16 PM - Edit history (1)
The final was unexpected...........we had to walk around the room periphery with pics of animal experimentation.
It was BRUTAL and REAL.
I would not go back.
I am posting to say I would not go back to being naive - not insulting the Prof for showing un REALITY
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)fascinated me for some time, but that kept me from realizing just how strong its effect was on me.
I've always understood that this wasn't something that only Germans would do, though a lot of the books written after WWII, including William Shirer's, tried to ascribe it to something very dark and deeply embedded in Germanic culture.
I remember reading that it was a horrible shock to westerners that this could happen in an advanced, western, Christian nation. Until then it was believed only possible in far, dark, heathen lands. Of course, you don't have to go back far in history anywhere with a clear eye to see it.
But in any case, it sparked new multidisciplinary focuses on understanding how and why it happened. All approaches produced important insights, of course, but the ones that produced the most necessary answers came from studies of the psychology of individuals and crowds. It can happen anywhere there are people and does a lot more than we think about in that light.
Thanks for posting. It needs to be thought about and is a break from the usual.
drmeow
(5,041 posts)for some people its a feature not a bug.
When you are socialized to dehumanize certain others, atrocities don't look like atrocities.
Personally, I'd like to eliminate those people from the planet altogether - not because of some innate characteristic they are born with but because I believe that the Tucker Carlson's and Steven Miller's of this world are unredeemable and are truly, monumentally evil monsters.
I didn't need a lesson on the holocaust. Visiting a Palestinian refugee camp as a child growing up in Lebanon packed a pretty good wallop.
colsohlibgal
(5,275 posts)For goodness sake vote like the near future of our Nation is at stake because it is.
I mean swastikas were adorning the attire of more than a few 1/6 rioters.
Dont think it cant happen here.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)And I still have no response.
JohnSJ
(92,532 posts)Square Garden in 1939 supporting the nazis
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Square_Garden
Lincoln Rockwell was a neo nazi who provided the inspiration to the nazis today
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Square_Garden
JustADumbFireman
(59 posts)...English....
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)at all.
What is your point of referral?
Most Germans would not post something like that.
Unsure what your abbreviated point is.
JustADumbFireman
(59 posts)Grammar. It's important. Because it's an indicator of one's credibility regarding level of education, literacy, and attention to detail.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)alittlelark
(18,891 posts)thanks for that !!!!!!
twin_ghost
(435 posts)It was a real eye opener for me at 20 in the US military. I learned reactionary politics is a poison for all of mankind.
DET
(1,336 posts)I was talking about this earlier with my husband, who is Jewish. He is convinced that if the Republicans gain enough power then our family and many others are in serious trouble. He speculated that theyll start with something seemingly relatively innocuous like declaring Sunday a mandatory day of rest. Then theyll change commonly accepted terms like Judeo-Christian to Zionist-Christian and theyll escalate from there. I used to think that Republican politicians were just despicable cowards; now I think that a lot of them are sociopaths as well. I cant understand how the American people dont see how perilously close we are to fascism with all that it entails.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)sux.
I need a superhero emoji that this site does not have.
I mean a REAL ONE !!!!!!!
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,367 posts)How can they not understand that the whole Judeo-Christian thing will be the first thing tossed over the rail?
Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)it happening all so clearly but can do nothing that can stop it. To my horror, i find the majority of people I know are Trumpers, from family to friends, to clients and neighbors. This includes all different income levels and ages.
Demovictory9
(32,507 posts)Dems to get message across that is contrary..that gop is damaging democracy
Soon gop will have twisted voting rights so that they will perm hold onto power
GreenEyedLefty
(2,073 posts)Both classes were life changing.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)I am 57 and am not yet able to take the class from the '80's.
usaf-vet
(6,244 posts)Moostache
(9,897 posts)IF it came to it, I would want to see the MF TFG taken alive and executed in public. No suicide or private death...firing squad or hanging or guillotine...
I was recently in Paris and saw the memorial on Concorde Plaza marking the spot Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were beheaded. I would visit such a spot on the National Mall annually until my own death.
mwooldri
(10,303 posts)20th Century History. GCSE is the English secondary school ending exams, in England you can "graduate" "high school" at 16.
(I put things in quotes as one doesn't graduate from school in the UK, you get kicked out after "Year 11" - the year one turns 16, you can sit exams to show what you did in your school career to that point - the General Certificate of Secondary Education or GCSE is what's awarded. Also most secondary schools aren't called "high school".)
The course covered WW 1 & 2, the Roaring 20s and the Wall St. Crash, FDR and the New Deal, the rise of Hitler, post WW2, Vietnam War and US Civil Rights movement. Two year course.
For a bunch of limeys we learned an awful lot about US history, but that's because the USA was such a central player in 20th century history.
alittlelark
(18,891 posts)until college - at which point we have to pay for it.
msongs
(67,505 posts)CaptainTruth
(6,621 posts)Hekate
(91,055 posts)She answered my questions honestly and informatively, whenever possible using people we knew as examples. Since this was right after WWII and in the middle of the Civil Rights movement, history was all around us, so to speak, in the newspapers and on the 5 oclock news.
My reading did not begin or end with Anne Frank, but included a lot of adult books. Graduated high school in 1965 majored in history in college, but chose Asia and the Pacific because I grew up in Hawaii and felt more affinity with the cultures.
I had quite the argument here the other night over whether to teach young people any honest history at all K-12. The poster in question really, truly believes that it will warp young peoples minds and terrify them to let them in on the truth before they are adults and out of high school.
I believe all education needs to be scaled to the age and development of children, but that it needs to be truthful. They need to know how to identify evil and they need to know they can resist it, long before they are adults. Adulthood is too damn late.
Here is some of what I said
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16013592
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16013034
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16013468
Grins
(7,274 posts)Larson is a historian and author who writes history like a novelist! Page turners. And this is a true story/history!!
Setting is 1933 Berlin, an awful time in Germany - BEFORE it got A LOT worse.
monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)after the war ,my dad stayed in England for a short time & married my mom who worked civil air defense through the blitzkrieg of London ! she was full BRITISH ! Dad was in the army over there from 41 to 46 ! both mom & dad told me all about the Nazi's it was not pretty ! I can't stand the use of that f%#king nazi word ! we need to do what Germany did , bring that word up & your in the jail ! everybody's fed up with republican party for standing up to this shit going on ! damn near everybody in this country has relatives that served in WW2 ! if they were alive now ,they'd shot ya just for bring that damn word up ! enough said !
Initech
(100,151 posts)Fuck Nazis to the hottest of hells!
orangecrush
(19,677 posts)This is NOT a drill.
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)Who did not leave before it began just at the outbreak of WW2. My grandmother and father told us about it all and we were always watching documentaries etc. my history classes in school before college also covered it. I didnt take any college classes because it was too painful and I already lived in fear the same could happen again and I already knew more than enough.
As told by my gm, at 16 she left what was then Poland/ Russia/ Ukraine with 2 sisters. During WW1 they had already had their house taken away and were traveling around in a cart digging potatoes from the ground to eat. Many family members including her mother/ children died. She said this life was the reason she left.
Somehow her father got their house back at some point. They had a small wine making biz. At the outset of WW2 one of her brothers who lived in a shetl went to work one day and came back to find the entire town including his wife and 3 year old daughter had been murdered, bayonetted, by german soldiers, he escaped into the Russian army and lived out his life there, never being allowed to leave or to have visitors even many years later when my father went to Poland and tried to go to Siberia to visit him. No one knew he had survived for a long time. Her father and another brother were murdered at their home- shot in the back of the head by a Ukrainian neighbor who was a a teacher and who had been their neighbor for many years.
Recently my brother told me that her brother had tried to get his father and remaining brother to to leave and also come to Russia but his father resisted and they did not survive. So they never made it to camps, there are many who suffered the same fate.
You have to understand that there had already been a very lengthy history of ingrained antisemitism and violence against the jewish population in these countries for centuries.
thucythucy
(8,139 posts)and yes, it's beyond disheartening to learn the history of that era, and both terrifying and depressing to see all the parallels to what is happening in the US today.
Another parallel between the two, beyond the ones already pointed out in this thread, is that both democracies were flawed from the start. The Weimar Republic had a constitution that was prone to inaction and partisan division, and contained the absolute poison pill that enabled the legislature to declare "s state of emergency" giving the executive dictatorial power. It was never foreseen by the drafters that someone like Hitler would arise to put that provision to such horrific use.
The US Constitution, with its bias toward rural, unpopulated areas, manifest in both the Senate and the Electoral College, allows a distinct minority of voters a hugely disproporationate say in how the country is run. Among other things it leads to a reactionary Supreme Court and judiciary overall--also a problem in Weimar--the selection of disasters such as Bush II and Trump, and gridlock during times of crisis, which in turn lead to disillusion with democracy in general and disgust with the status quo. Add in an existential crisis--a collapsed economy in the case of Germany, a pandemic and climate change here in the US--and it's a recipe for all that we're seeing now.
Also, the focus by the GOP on "culture wars" has a distinct Nazi-like flavor. In Germany it was backlash against gay rights, women's relative emancipation, the rise of Berlin as a center of the avante garde in film, art, music, architecture, not to mention the loosening of sexual strictures in general. People tend to forget--actually most of us never learned to begin with--that Germany in the 1920s was among the most progressive places on earth, at least in Berlin and the larger cities. Rural areas were dominated by conservatives who professed to be appalled at "the decadence" they saw rising in the culture all around them. The Nazis played on this incessantly, scapegoating Jews and gay people and immigrants and liberals such as Social Democrats.
Finally, there was an "all or nothing" tendency of the far left that today seems self defeating to the point of nihilism. As in America, much of this was due to the influence of--wait for it!--Russia, in the form of Stalin, the Soviet Union, and the Comintern, which directed German communists to ignore the Nazis as a passing phase, and focus their wrath on liberals such as the Social Democrats--whom they called "Social Fascists." They too used the flaws in the Weimar constitution to impede any meaningful response to the crises of the time. They actually thought Hitler coming to power was a good thing, that it would hasten a communist revolution and bring about the dictatorship of the proletariat. Susan Sarandon would have fit right in with her "Trump will bring on the revolution" rhetoric.
We in American have some factors going for us that German progressives didn't.
We have a long standing democratic tradition not present in Germany of the time. We are not in the throes of recovering from the trauma of a war that cost millions of dead and disabled millions more. We didn't lose such a war and have now to endure national humiliations such as foreign occupation (by the French and Belgians in the Ruhr) and reparations payments. And we have this history itself, which can be used as both warning and lesson. Claudia Koonz, a historian of the Weimar/Nazi era, has said that Nazi Germany is a virtual case study in how things can go wrong in what is supposed to be a functioning democracy. The Germans had no such example to point to, and thus much of what Hitler and the Nazis did was "unimaginable, unthinkable" until they did it. We don't have to imagine what happens when an industrial power goes full on fascist, we have the example right before us, on the fringe of living memory. And we have the African American community which is at ultimate risk, but the leaders of which understand that risk and are active in doing what they can to save all of us. I think it's absolutely accurate to say that Black women saved democracy from a second Trump turn. I see no dimunition in that activism, and am immensely grateful for those efforts.
I'd like to offer some helpful and hopeful conclusion here, but at the moment I'm at a loss. Passing a solid, enforceable voting rights act is imperative. Somehow limiting the wealth and power of the oligarch class is also a priority. Without the well funded, well oiled right wing media so much of this would not be happening, and taxing these bastards so they have less money to throw into the mix would be a huge help.
Then too: education. We have to bring back the public schools, and make colleges and universities much more accessible to people who aren't ultra rich. This was perhaps the greatest achievement--IMHO--of FDR's New Deal and the GI Bill of Rights--opening the door to higher education to working and middle class kids. It was also the first thing Reagan went after, first as governor of California, then as president.
That you were so distressed by what you learned in your history class is evidence of your essential compassion as a human being. Try never to apologize for it or feel bad about it. Compassion and empathy, combined with knowledge and understanding, are still our best hope for the future.
Best wishes.