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jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 01:15 AM Nov 2021

Question regarding the Rittenhouse trial.

The comportment of this judge has been nothing short of outrageous. I can't imagine a scenario at this point where his constant vitriolic hectoring of the prosecution over every trifling matter won't produce a biased outcome with the jury.

Isn't there something...anything the DOJ can do about this travesty? Rittenhouse is a vicious, cowardly murderer and proven White supremacist. He can't be allowed to just walk the streets again.

This isn't the 1950s Deep South. The citizens of this nation today deserve a far more just legal system than what's currently on display in Kenosha.

48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Question regarding the Rittenhouse trial. (Original Post) jcmaine72 Nov 2021 OP
Rittenhouse's fate lies with the Jury. twin_ghost Nov 2021 #1
You're telling me the jurors are unaware of the Judge's tantrums? jcmaine72 Nov 2021 #3
Yes They are unaware. All arguments are held outside the presence of the jury. twin_ghost Nov 2021 #4
So, these jurors are the last people on earth without jcmaine72 Nov 2021 #7
Yes hard to believe their family Tree Lady Nov 2021 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author Deuxcents Nov 2021 #6
Is there a Federal Crime he committed? IbogaProject Nov 2021 #2
At the very least... jcmaine72 Nov 2021 #5
Which victim? Zeitghost Nov 2021 #10
How about the victims who would still be alive today jcmaine72 Nov 2021 #15
Those people Zeitghost Nov 2021 #32
"Would still be alive if they didn't attend a violent protest " jcmaine72 Nov 2021 #46
that little white supremacist went LOOKING for trouble Skittles Nov 2021 #16
You are very likely correct Zeitghost Nov 2021 #33
facts....LOL Skittles Nov 2021 #39
Yes facts Zeitghost Nov 2021 #40
try to imagine if a POC had done the same at the Jan 6 mob scene Skittles Nov 2021 #41
Of course not Zeitghost Nov 2021 #43
Maybe "trouble" wanted to stop him Sparkly Nov 2021 #44
A few questions: Zeitghost Nov 2021 #45
Haha!!! Sparkly Nov 2021 #42
Your right, Americans hate the truth. njhoneybadger Nov 2021 #19
This has been eye opening for me Sympthsical Nov 2021 #27
+1 Zeitghost n/t Devil Child Nov 2021 #24
Illegally transporting a firearm MurrayDelph Nov 2021 #17
That didn't happen from what I heard (n/t) Hav Nov 2021 #21
At a minimum illegal possession of a firearm. LiberalFighter Nov 2021 #35
I don't know... MurrayDelph Nov 2021 #36
There are some very unpopular points that need made I think. ForgedCrank Nov 2021 #8
Those are certainly interesting points jcmaine72 Nov 2021 #13
Why would the prosecutor want a mistrial? NJCher Nov 2021 #22
A mistrial (without prejudice) Yarnie Nov 2021 #25
I guess with this judge NJCher Nov 2021 #31
Small town lawyers. They have to live cbabe Nov 2021 #37
Probably to save his own political skin jcmaine72 Nov 2021 #47
Want to do some about the Judge in the Rittenhouse trial, file a complaint. LetMyPeopleVote Nov 2021 #9
You never know with a jury Freethinker65 Nov 2021 #11
Why is there any assumption that the DOJ would *want* to remedy any such travesty? RockRaven Nov 2021 #14
I have seen in past cases ... left-of-center2012 Nov 2021 #18
My Question Girl powers Nov 2021 #20
Does everyone deserve adequate legal representation or only the rich? MichMan Nov 2021 #23
Anyone paying for his defense... LiberatedUSA Nov 2021 #26
One thing to keep in mind is that the jury is not in the room during most of this Sympthsical Nov 2021 #28
Fascinating, but by no means good. Jedi Guy Nov 2021 #29
The media are just gobsmacking as well Sympthsical Nov 2021 #30
The continued pushing of false narratives Zeitghost Nov 2021 #34
'This isn't the 1950s Deep South' looks more and more like it everyday spanone Nov 2021 #38
Yes, and it's scary. jcmaine72 Nov 2021 #48

twin_ghost

(435 posts)
1. Rittenhouse's fate lies with the Jury.
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 01:21 AM
Nov 2021

The judge is just a referee. The arguments are being held outside the presence of the jury, so they have no effect on them. It's like some people have never watched a criminal trial before!

jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
3. You're telling me the jurors are unaware of the Judge's tantrums?
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 01:27 AM
Nov 2021

The entire planet is seemingly aware of what this judge is saying and doing, but not them?

That's not very plausible, is it?

twin_ghost

(435 posts)
4. Yes They are unaware. All arguments are held outside the presence of the jury.
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 01:29 AM
Nov 2021

That is why they will pause the trial and have the jury leave the court room.

Response to twin_ghost (Reply #1)

IbogaProject

(2,858 posts)
2. Is there a Federal Crime he committed?
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 01:26 AM
Nov 2021

Is there a Federal Crime he committed? No double jeopardy w federal crimes.

jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
5. At the very least...
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 01:30 AM
Nov 2021

....didn't Rittenhouse violate his victim's civil rights (The freedom to assemble) by showing up at the protests armed with an assault rifle with the intent to intimidate?

Zeitghost

(3,896 posts)
10. Which victim?
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 01:42 AM
Nov 2021

The one who threatened to kill him, chased him down and tried to grab his gun from him?

The one on tape bashing him with a skateboard?

Or the one who testified that he pulled his gun and pointed it at KR?

jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
15. How about the victims who would still be alive today
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 02:02 AM
Nov 2021

if the person you're stridently defending stayed home where he belonged instead of trying to play Paul Kersey?

Zeitghost

(3,896 posts)
32. Those people
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 11:25 AM
Nov 2021

Would still be alive if they didn't attend a violent protest and commit various violent crimes, including assault and battery, giving KR a legal right to defend himself under WI law.

Rittenhouse should have stayed home (as should all three of the men shot), he should have never gone armed (just like the last person he shot) and he's certainly a right wing POS who wanted to play SWAT. But none of that mattered the moment he was attacked. The video evidence and the direct testimony of witnesses, including one of the men shot clearly show what happened. So while I might despise the smug little asshole and everything he stands for, I'm not willing to set aside the rule of law and the facts presented in court. Neither should you.


They were all there looking for trouble. They all found it.

jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
46. "Would still be alive if they didn't attend a violent protest "
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 10:38 PM
Nov 2021

I stopped reading there. That's RW excreta regularly discharged at places like Breitfart, Faux News and FR.

Shame on you for shoveling it here.

Skittles

(153,311 posts)
16. that little white supremacist went LOOKING for trouble
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 02:06 AM
Nov 2021

he's a fucking vigilante wannabe who would never have the guts to actually BE a cop or serve in the military

Zeitghost

(3,896 posts)
33. You are very likely correct
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 11:26 AM
Nov 2021

But that still doesn't change the facts presented in court or the law on the books in WI.

Zeitghost

(3,896 posts)
40. Yes facts
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 04:57 PM
Nov 2021

I'm sorry they are inconvenient for your narrative. But even if KR admitted he went looking for trouble, it doesn't necessarily negate his right to defend himself when trouble finds him.

Skittles

(153,311 posts)
41. try to imagine if a POC had done the same at the Jan 6 mob scene
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 04:59 PM
Nov 2021

took an illegal weapon weapon out of state and killed two of the protesters

do you REALLY think the narrative would be the same

DONE HERE

Zeitghost

(3,896 posts)
43. Of course not
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 05:02 PM
Nov 2021

If KR was a person of color and been chased down, assaulted, beat with a skateboard and had a gun pointed at him, the narrative would be completely different around here. And it would likely be completely different in the right wing media.

But my opinion would still be exactly the same, because it's based on facts, testimony, and video evidence.

Sparkly

(24,162 posts)
44. Maybe "trouble" wanted to stop him
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 05:05 PM
Nov 2021

from shooting anybody else.

He was running around with with an AR-15 pointing it at people, and especially after he shot and killed the first victim, people were trying to stop him. He then had a right to kill them? The guy with the handgun was turning away, and a firearm vs. a skateboard or a plastic bag is hardly an even fight.

Zeitghost

(3,896 posts)
45. A few questions:
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 05:16 PM
Nov 2021

WI law requires someone to be in fear for their life or great bodily harm.

If someone is bashing you over the head with a skateboard, would that put you in reasonable fear of great bodily harm?

If someone who had previously threatened to kill you was chasing you and trying to grab your firearm, would that put you in reasonable fear?

If someone drew a gun and pointed it at you would you be in reasonable fear? And no, Gaige Grosskreutz was not turning away. His own testimony for the prosecution says that he approached KR with his hands up and then drew and pointed his Glock at him.

Sympthsical

(9,193 posts)
27. This has been eye opening for me
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 10:00 AM
Nov 2021

I get serious vibes that are similar to when right-wingers keep claiming Antifa was responsible for January 6th despite mountains of evidence against the idea.

It's like, how many facts are required before a narrative dies?

And once you realize facts are absolutely immaterial, that the Narrative must win no matter what, it's a bit demoralizing.

Maybe it's not that I'm surprised. I'm just disappointed.

MurrayDelph

(5,305 posts)
36. I don't know...
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 12:36 PM
Nov 2021

He was seventeen at the time, so was unable to legally possess the firearm and crossed state lines to get there...

ForgedCrank

(1,787 posts)
8. There are some very unpopular points that need made I think.
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 01:38 AM
Nov 2021

First, what the prosecutor did in court was not a "trifling matter". What he did is the very thing that can get a trial completely trashed and allow people to walk free who otherwise shouldn't. So we can't let ourselves overlook that, he did some very serious stuff and it appeared on purpose, at least from a distance. Do you want a mistrial declared? I sure as hell don't.
There's a lot of stuff in the law and how it works that we sometimes flat don't like, but there it is anyway. Court proceedings have to be done in a very strict and controlled manner, and it doesn't always look fair, but it's like that for good reason. If one of us are ever falsely accused, those reasons will become very apparent. We unfortunately have to apply that equally to all, even Ted Bundy was afforded those rights until found guilty.
Secondly, and quite unfortunately, it's not illegal to be a "white supremacist", or any other sort of vile racist for that matter. In our country, we are not damned to prison for our beliefs, only our illegal actions, and I for one and quite thankful for that even though I have to tolerate some assholes as a result.
And lastly, you have a white 17 year-old punk who got in WAY over his head and shot 3 white people, killing two of them in Wisconsin. I'm not sure what the "deep south" has to do with this situation.

jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
13. Those are certainly interesting points
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 01:56 AM
Nov 2021

And yes, the prosecutor at times has appeared to be in over his head, but that doesn't excuse the judge's outrageous behavior.

It almost begs the question if the prosecutor wanted this case to be declared a mistrial from the beginning. If that's the case, then this trial is indeed a complete and total farce and the Feds need to step in immediately.

NJCher

(35,835 posts)
22. Why would the prosecutor want a mistrial?
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 07:10 AM
Nov 2021

Last edited Fri Nov 12, 2021, 10:58 AM - Edit history (1)

Serious question.

——————


This judge acts like a hysterical ninny. He must be a source of embarrassment to the WI judiciary.
He has a serious problem with his professional demeanor. I would even go so far as to call him goofy.

Then there’s this about the “Asian food.”

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMidWh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnVzYXRvZGF5LmNvbS9zdG9yeS9uZXdzL25hdGlvbi8yMDIxLzExLzExL2t5bGUtcml0dGVuaG91c2UtanVkZ2UtYXNpYW4tZm9vZC1qb2tlLXZldGVyYW5zLWRheS82Mzk3MDU4MDAxL9IBJ2h0dHBzOi8vYW1wLnVzYXRvZGF5LmNvbS9hbXAvNjM5NzA1ODAwMQ?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen


 

Yarnie

(90 posts)
25. A mistrial (without prejudice)
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 09:36 AM
Nov 2021

is the only way the prosecution gets a "do-over." The defense can appeal a guilty verdict; the prosecution can't appeal a not guilty verdict.

cbabe

(3,555 posts)
37. Small town lawyers. They have to live
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 01:35 PM
Nov 2021

the neighbors at the barbershop and grocery store and pta and Rotary and church. Small towns easily shun and punish those who don’t follow their rules.

Who has the courage and fortitude to stand against small town censure?

This is a reason I’m impressed with Sec. Buttigieg. He not only stood against small town prejudices but won over so many. An incredibly bold and brave and rare feat.

jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
47. Probably to save his own political skin
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 10:55 PM
Nov 2021

I don't what Binger's future political or professional plans are. Maybe it's to give himself plausible deniability for any future political campaign. To progressives, he'll be able say "Well, at least I tried". To conservatives, he can assert that he was pressured to prosecute Rittenhouse from the outside but purposely mishandled his prosecution because he believed he was truly innocent. Who really knows?

The whole thing stinks. Rittenhouse is a murderer who should spend the rest of his life in prison. That much we all (LPC RW trolls aside) know.

Freethinker65

(10,116 posts)
11. You never know with a jury
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 01:43 AM
Nov 2021

I just served on a jury in Cook County Illinois. Three counts of attempted murder and lesser charges to consider. Prosecution obviously wanted info given to jury and testimony that was blocked for some reason. Lots of objections sustained. Cops and witnesses less than truthful on stand to oversell the case did not help prosecution's case.
Closing arguments however provided lots of video for review (not questioned nor discounted by defense in closing) that sealed the case for us. Two days of deliberation with diverse jury panel, early breakdown of opinions not what one would think. Attempted murder was not proven, but lesser charges requiring sentencing stuck.

RockRaven

(15,096 posts)
14. Why is there any assumption that the DOJ would *want* to remedy any such travesty?
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 02:01 AM
Nov 2021

Don't expect them to do what they've tended not to do during the entire career of every single person in the agency at present... Why would anyone expect an anomalous event like that?

left-of-center2012

(34,195 posts)
18. I have seen in past cases ...
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 03:15 AM
Nov 2021

The federal government will wait and see what happens in a state court. Regardless of whether a defendant is found guilty or not guilty federal charges may be filed after the state court decision.

 

LiberatedUSA

(1,666 posts)
26. Anyone paying for his defense...
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 09:52 AM
Nov 2021

…has the same right to do so as the ACLU does to defend people you do care about.

Sympthsical

(9,193 posts)
28. One thing to keep in mind is that the jury is not in the room during most of this
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 10:21 AM
Nov 2021

When the judge exploded at the prosecutor for egregiously bad, trial destroying things, the jury wasn't in the room.

They're sent out of the room fairly often. Sometimes he tells them to leave the room so quickly, I don't even notice he's done it. But whenever they're having those testy discussions between lawyers and the judge, they're not there.

Second, people are hyper focused on when he goes against the prosecution. They blow that up. They don't notice or mention when he helps them. For example, that bit about the Drew Hernandez thing about the law firm. It seemed like the prosecution was getting weirdly close to that 5th Amendment third rail again. But when the prosecutor explained his purpose, the judge said he was inclined to allow it. That witness was super right-wing, and the judge wasn't thrilled with him.

It happened again with that picture kerfuffle. The defense objected strenuously to admitting it into evidence. The judge didn't quite understand the technology being explained, the defense did not want the prosecution to be able to say what they were about to, but ultimately, the judge came down on the prosecution's side.

People keep saying "Oh, he wants his own tv show." I think it's the opposite. I think he doesn't appreciate enough that he's on TV. Some of his comments veer towards grandpa being weird at Thanksgiving dinner.

I think it comes down to this: When you have the facts, argue the facts. When you have the law, argue the law. When you have neither, argue the narrative. We're in that latter portion of things and have been from almost day one.

I knew about this case, but can't say I read too deeply on it. And I thought Rittenhouse was slam dunk going to be convicted of one of the more serious crimes. Then I started reading. Watched videos. Read about witness statements. Then the trial actually started and people started testifying.

There is almost no case here. I was shocked when I saw just how little there is in this to charge murder. Did you know everything Rosenbaum did? I didn't. And the prosecutor lied about it in opening statements.

I think this case has been lost before it was even brought, and I think plenty of people knew that. So now the story is this judge, and it will be crafted in such a way to explain why Rittenhouse walks.

People need to hang their hats on something to justify why there's no conviction. I mean, the evidence and testimony are more than enough to explain it. But, if the Narrative is going to hold when Rittenhouse walks, there needs to be a cause, a villain, a figure for this grave injustice.

Voila. Evil judge. And the story line is being handed out over social media on the most silvery of platters.

The reason I am so obsessed with this trial is because I cannot believe how far The Narrative is from objective facts and evidence. The stories being told on social media are not the story being told in that courtroom. And those false stories continue, no matter how much someone points out it's wrong, false, misinformation, incorrect, or ignorant.

This is all like watching some crazy sociology experiment for me. I'm in awe that so many can be so resistant to evidence all can see and how much buttressing a Narrative will require once someone is invested enough.

As I said, it's fascinating shit.

Jedi Guy

(3,289 posts)
29. Fascinating, but by no means good.
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 10:40 AM
Nov 2021

The total lack of rationality and objectivity is deeply disturbing. But clinging to a preferred reality, facts be damned, is a human weakness, after all. I guess I shouldn't be all that surprised.

Sympthsical

(9,193 posts)
30. The media are just gobsmacking as well
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 10:56 AM
Nov 2021

How they're headlining and framing this trial is beyond words. In another thread, a poster provided this story to support their assertion the gun crossed state lines.

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/05/1053018241/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-first-week-what-happened

On Aug. 25, ahead of the third night of protests, Rittenhouse, then 17, drove from his home in Antioch, Ill., across the state line into Wisconsin, where he intended to "protect" businesses from unrest. He was armed with an AR-15-style rifle.


Look how that's worded. We know the gun never left Wisconsin. This article is from Nov. 5th. How in the hell does a responsible journalist manage that?

They did similar with Gaige Grosskreutz's testimony. NPR led with he had his hands up and he feared for his life. The whole lead, that he was pointing his gun when Rittenhouse fired, was buried in the article. In the ABC story about the same testimony, the fact that he pointed the gun at Rittenhouse was literally the last thing mentioned in the article. The whole where the gun was pointed thing wasn't within an astronomical unit of the headlines - it was the most pertinent part of the testimony.

Isn't it their job to give a clear picture of things? If they had any sense of responsibility, they would lead with what the evidence and testimony are showing in regards to the self-defense claim. But they're just not.

Do they want riots? Is this a ratings thing? Because I cannot imagine how they are so intentionally setting up people to think an acquittal will be this shocking, unfathomable thing.

And yet, there they are.

Zeitghost

(3,896 posts)
34. The continued pushing of false narratives
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 11:31 AM
Nov 2021

Is downright frightening. It's not new, but I don't think I've ever seen it be so blatant. The entire night was basically caught on various cameras, including drone footage overhead. And yet even the prosecution can't refrain from telling demonstrably false lies about simple facts.

jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
48. Yes, and it's scary.
Fri Nov 12, 2021, 11:08 PM
Nov 2021

There's a sizable (albeit aging and shrinking , thank God,) segment of our population that wants to roll back the clock and keep this nation permanently petrified in 1955.

Their numbers and influence are declining and they've gotten desperate. The more desperate they've gotten, the more radicalized and fascistic they have become.

Trump will not be the last openly racist, anti-democratic goon they will support. The worst is yet to come I fear.

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